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#222390 - 02/17/07 06:08 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Bill_M]
Beardo Offline


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 14
Quote:

As for requiring "proof", first and foremost, what do I care? It's not like Satanism is out to get converts.




I'm only asking for some information, and this seemed like the best place to come to.

Quote:

Second of all, how can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience?

Have you ever performed the standard Satanic ritual described in the book? If not, then how do you expect anybody to take you seriously when you say you're "looking for proof"? Reread the definition of "magic" as its given in the book.




Can you not see the hypocrisy here?

Atheist: "Prove God exists"
Christian: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature impossible to disprove? I don't need to."

Atheist: "Prove magic exists"
Satanist: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience. I don't need to."

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#222391 - 02/17/07 06:09 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: DarkApollyon]
Beardo Offline


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 14
Quote:

But, unless you 'believe' something 'bad' will happen to you if you give magic a go what have you got to lose?




There's nothing I hate more than wasted time.

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#222392 - 02/17/07 06:30 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
Quote:

Can you not see the hypocrisy here?

Atheist: "Prove God exists"
Christian: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature impossible to disprove? I don't need to."

Atheist: "Prove magic exists"
Satanist: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience. I don't need to."




So now you're accusing me of being a hypocrite? Do you even know the definition of hypocrisy? How, exactly, am I "saying one thing, and doing something different"? Are you by any chance just another one of those atheist trolls who likes coming on to a messagboard to play the "find the loophole" game for cheap self-esteem boosts?

Regardless, the analogy here is flawed. Christians have an agenda. I don't care whether or not other people have an understanding of how Satanism defines and uses the concept of "magic". And I'm certainly not telling people that something bad is going to happen to those who don't. Furthermore, it IS about subjective experiences here. Trying to "prove" what I get out of organized ritual makes as much sense as trying to "prove" that my favorite food is sushi.

I am, however, going to give my views on the subject when I'm on a privately-run messagboard for discussing Satanism.

You CAN take a completely psychological view on magic, and still find it to be a useful tool. There are lots of Satanists who do so. But instead, you've decided to be like the countless other self-righteous "atheists" out there who throw the whole concept away, ignorantly dismissiong the whole thing as a "waste of time" (only to probably move on to playing video games or watching TV for 3 hours). I'm seriously starting to doubt that you even read the book now.
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#222393 - 02/17/07 06:36 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
A Recipe For Delicious Pudding

Quote:

Atheist: "Prove magic exists"
Satanist: "How can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience. I don't need to."



Indeed, nobody owes you proof of anything.

"Proof" is something only you can decide, because only you can determine what is required to prove something to your satisfaction.

My advice: be skeptical and don't believe anything just because someone tells you to believe it. Prove it to yourself, on your terms, and -- very important -- never forget you could be wrong.

Of course, you don't need to take my advice. Just sayin'.

Actually -- and again, the irony is thick here -- Satanic magic can most definitely produce results which are not merely subjective.

How? It depends. If you prefer think of it as the consequences of subconscious mental conditioning, you can. If you prefer to think of it as the action of arcane, dreadful forces of unspeakable eville, you can.

Hell, if you prefer to think of it as the Great Fairy What Sits In The Sky granting your every wish, you can.

The fact remains that if you express a desire for something to happen and it does, regardless of how it happened, it still happened.

That's not "blind faith" or anything of the kind.

It's just an observation of fact -- an observation which can prove quite rewarding to those willing and able to apply its logical corollaries.

You don't have to be a Satanist to do so, but there are plenty of Satanists who do, benefit demonstrably from the practice and speak quite highly of it.

Saying something doesn't exist simply because you don't believe it exists is itself a declaration of "blind faith".

Is that your religion?

Food for thought: the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Try some. It's devilicious.

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#222394 - 02/17/07 06:44 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Bill_M]
Beardo Offline


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 14
Quote:

So now you're accusing me of being a hypocrite? Do you even know the definition of hypocrisy? How, exactly, am I "saying one thing, and doing something different"? Are you by any chance just another one of those atheist trolls who likes coming on to a messagboard to play the "find the loophole" game for cheap self-esteem boosts?




Like I said before, I'm only here for information. I'm not anti-Satanist, and I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm simply asking for some information.

Quote:

Regardless, the analogy here is flawed. Christians have an agenda. I don't care whether or not other people have an understanding of how Satanism defines and uses the concept of "magic". And I'm certainly not telling people that something bad is going to happen to those who don't. Furthermore, it IS about subjective experiences here. Trying to "prove" what I get out of organized ritual makes as much sense as trying to "prove" that my favorite food is sushi.




But Satanic rituals are supposed to have some measurable, real-world results. Your favourite food is entirely subjective, but the results of a Satanic ritual aren't. If you perform a ritual and someone ends up dying because of it, you cannot say that is subjective.

Quote:

You CAN take a completely psychological view on magic, and still find it to be a useful tool. There are lots of Satanists who do so.




When I first read TSB, I wasn't sure whether to interpret it that way or not. But after reading Anton LaVey's biography, the only real account I've read on Satanism in practise, that is definitely not true for some. There are numerous accounts of people angering LaVey and that resulting in their deaths. So it cannot be purely psychological.



And remember, like I said before, I'm only asking for some information; I'm not trying to offend anyone or tell them they're wrong or force my views down your throats.

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#222395 - 02/17/07 06:51 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Sigmund Fraud

Quote:

There are numerous accounts of people angering LaVey and that resulting in their deaths. So it cannot be purely psychological.



Oh Ye Of Little Faith.

Where in the world does someone get the idea that psychology can't influence human behavior?
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#222396 - 02/17/07 06:52 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Majic]
Beardo Offline


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 14
Quote:

Food for thought: the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Try some. It's devilicious.




Well ok, I guess that seems to be the consensus around here then. And I guess it does make some sense.

Thanks for giving me such a clear and non-patronising reply.

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#222397 - 02/17/07 06:56 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Majic]
Beardo Offline


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 14
Hehe, well yes I've heard of placebo effects and things like that (although I've never heard of anything quite like your example )

But still, someone dying from a curse in a car crash, when they didn't even know they'd been cursed in the first place? It seems like more than just a psychological effect you are trying to acheive here.

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#222398 - 02/17/07 07:06 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
The Power Of Negative Thinking

Quote:

But still, someone dying from a curse in a car crash, when they didn't even know they'd been cursed in the first place? It seems like more than just a psychological effect you are trying to acheive here.



Well hey, if it gets the job done, does it really matter?

For what little it may be worth, I think that would explain most of what could be thought of as "practical magic".

The human psyche is a very powerful thing.

Consider the power of words, for example. Their effects could be considered "purely psychological".

And yet, with nothing more than words, a single man can order the deaths of millions of people and millions of people will die.

If a Satanist is doing nothing more than harnessing that principle, it is still an immensely powerful principle to harness, don't you think?

More to the point, if a Satanist successfully harnesses such a principle, what other people may believe or disbelieve about it is irrelevant.

All that matters is that it worked.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#222399 - 02/17/07 07:08 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Majic]
Beardo Offline


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 14
Guess I'll need to try it for myself then before I can start talking about it.

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#222400 - 02/17/07 07:17 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Participant Observation

Quote:

Guess I'll need to try it for myself then before I can start talking about it.



You don't have to. Lots of people talk about it without trying it.

Personally, I don't think you need to practice Satanic magic to appreciate it.

I don't. I'm not a Satanist -- or perhaps more accurately, I don't label myself as such.

I just find Satanism interesting and enjoyable to study.

How's that for a twist?
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#222401 - 02/17/07 07:20 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Majic]
Beardo Offline


Registered: 02/17/07
Posts: 14
Quote:

I'm not a Satanist -- or perhaps more accurately, I don't label myself as such.

I just find Satanism interesting and enjoyable to study.

How's that for a twist?




Hehe, well that was unexpected.

So you are saying you believe in magic, without ever having actually experienced it?

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#222402 - 02/17/07 07:46 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Do You Believe In Majic?

Quote:

So you are saying you believe in magic, without ever having actually experienced it?



No, that would be a mischaracterization of my position.

I have studied a Great Many Things, including Satanic Magic. I respect Satanic Magic and the capabilities of those who practice it competently.

However, it's not the only game in town, if you catch my drift.

I study all sorts of interesting phenomena which could be considered "magical" and which involve Real Things that happen in the Real World to Real People.

The causes underlying the effects are subject to interpretation, but I think it would be self-deceptive to dismiss magic out of hand simply because one doesn't understand what it actually is.

As I've pointed out, doing so is itself a declaration of faith, not an acceptance of fact.

And lest I be misunderstood, my definition of "magic" is quite broad, since I define it thus:

Magic is any technology which achieves results through unknown means.

By my definition, anyone who achieves results through unknown means is practicing magic.

Your Mileage May Vary, of course, but I've found it beneficial to keep an open mind when studying the world.

In fact, you could say it works like magic.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#222403 - 02/17/07 07:49 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Majic]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

don't. I'm not a Satanist -- or perhaps more accurately, I don't label myself as such.

I just find Satanism interesting and enjoyable to study.






Seeing as how you are giving advice on Satanic Magic, I would be interested in knowing What DO you consider yourself if not that of a Satanist?
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#222404 - 02/17/07 07:52 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Evil_Eve]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
The Ultimate Authority

Quote:

Seeing as how you are giving advice on Satanic Magic, I would be interested in knowing What DO you consider yourself if not that of a Satanist?



I Am What I Am.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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