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#222405 - 02/17/07 07:55 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Majic]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Typical response.

I am glad you find Satanism/Satanist so fascinating (pardon enjoyable to 'study'.)
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If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
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#222406 - 02/17/07 08:01 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Evil_Eve]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
The Joy Of Joyfulness

Quote:

I am glad you find Satanism/Satanist so fascinating (pardon enjoyable to 'study'.)



Happiness is its own reward.
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If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#222407 - 02/17/07 08:14 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Bill_M]
ThaDeej Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/15/06
Posts: 241
Loc: Greenville, SC
Quote:

Quote:

So until someone can give me some proof that magic does work Satanism will remain as just a philosophy to me -




Your view on Satanism one way or another has no bearing on whether or not Satanism is a religion. It IS a religion. That is a fact. It is a clearly defined philosophy with dogma and organized ceremony. That, by definition, is a religion.

As for requiring "proof", first and foremost, what do I care? It's not like Satanism is out to get converts. Second of all, how can I give you "proof" of something which is by its very nature a subjective experience?

Have you ever performed the standard Satanic ritual described in the book? If not, then how do you expect anybody to take you seriously when you say you're "looking for proof"? Reread the definition of "magic" as its given in the book.





So well-stated, good Sir.

Satanism has nothing to prove to anyone. The framework is very specific and everything you need to know you claim to already have read. TEST IT! It stands as it is, as it has been and as it forever shall be. It either resonates within you or it doesn't.

Many people walk around all day calling themselves by many labels. This is nothing new to Satanism; We see it daily.

To beat this dead horse once again for those that just either refuse to read or can't grasp it. Satanism IS a RELIGION! Whether you like that or accept that is of little or no concern to any of Us here on the board. But if you can't seem to accept that...why are you here? *oh, I'm sure the response is "to learn more" but you goff in the face of those of willing to (when we are in no way obligated to do so) offer help.

Don't be surprised when the 4th Satanic Rule of the Earth is exhibited to you. 4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

Quote:

I think there must be many more 'potential Satanists' out there that share this same view, due to the type of intelligent person that the philosophy of Satanism appeals to.




I prefer to call that group "uncreative, unimaginative atheists with no organization skills".



Perfect description, Sir.


Edited by ThaDeej (02/17/07 08:17 AM)
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#222408 - 02/17/07 09:06 AM My favorite definition of magic [Re: Bill_M]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Quote:

I think The Satanic Bible is pretty clear about magic, how it's defined, what role it plays in the religion, and why it's there in the first place (recall a quote about how Satanism "fills the large grey void between religion and psychiatry"? Or "intellectual decompression"?)




My favorite definition of Satanic magic comes from Magus Gilmore, in an interview.

He called Satanic ritual magic "self-transformative psychodrama".
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reprobate

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#222409 - 02/17/07 09:13 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Bill_M]
5557773 Offline


Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 35
Quote:

Quote:

Someone said that if I don't understand the magical side of Satanism, then I dont understand some 40 pages of TSB.




No, I was pointing out rather the opposite. The Book of Lucifer, as central to the book as it may be, still only makes up about 60 pages of the entire book (less than that if you leave out its last chapter, "The Black Mass", as it's not strictly part of the "philosophy side"). I was incorrect about the initial figure of 40, but regardless, the point is that it only makes up a fraction of the book. As I said in an article I wrote not too long ago (for The Ninth Gate magazine), there's a reason why the book is much longer than that. To say "I don't understand the magic part" is to throw away over half of the book. And if you extend that to throwing away "The Satanic Witch" and "The Satanic Rituals", then it begins to suspiciously look like claiming to accept a religion where you throw away half of its canon.

Look, I've seen the same question and the same claims countless times before. "How can you have that magic stuff in there if Satanism is supposed to be about rationality and realism?" Ritual is a TOOL. And again, ritualized expression has been with humans forever. To quote the book, "Man needs ceremony and ritual, fantasy and enchantment".

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I understand the magic ritual as fun psychodram, and as a way to focus your energy towards your goals, and how keeping your energy focused on your goal can work positive...




Then what's your hang-up?

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What I don't get is how it is believed that the focusing of your energy can change things to your will.




This seems to contradict your previous sentence.




I concur. Perhaps it might be easier for you to understand if you simply define MAGIC, what is magic to you? Once you have successfully defined it to yourself, then put it to work for yourself - the results can not be denied.

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Lead me not into temptation...I can find it myself!

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#222410 - 02/17/07 09:27 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8265
No one can prove it to you, you must prove it for yoursrlf.

We are not here to spoon feed you. Work it out on your own. All the information you want is in the Satanic Bible, the works of Dr. LaVey and the COS website.

Untill then, stop wasting our time and yours. Please proceed to the nearest exit and join a forum that wants to argue for arguments sake.

Bye for now.

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#222411 - 02/17/07 09:32 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>So until someone can give me some proof that magic does work

Do you want someone to do a card trick for you or levitate?

Why should anyone prove anything to you? No one came to you trying to ask questions and inquire. You came here and injected your opinion and now you want “proof”.

It is education, you have to do it yourself.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#222412 - 02/17/07 09:54 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Nekrogorgasm]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Quote:

Perhaps my kind of Satanism isn't LaVeyin Satanism, but I do call myself a Satanist because that is my archetype.




I don't expect you to understand, however, you're not a Satanist.

As others have pointed out, dogma and ritual are ingredients that form a religion. Satanism incorporates both dogma and ritual. By any definition, Satanism is a religion.

You could rightly call yourself an atheist, humanist, rationalist, or any other aspect that Satanism encompasses.

There's nothing wrong with that.

It only becomes a problem when you start distorting what Satanism is, into something you want it to be.

I see no reason that you should feel obligated to call yourself a Satanist, when there are so many more apt titles that, at first glance, fit you so much better than the title of "Satanist."

Satanism requires study and application, not steadfast denial based soley upon superficial skepticism.

As I said, understanding past an abstract level, requires application.

Clarke's Law states that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." It's important to understand that Clarke's Law does not work backwards, however. Which only means that anything described as magic today, doesn't necessarily mean that tomorrow technology will discover and utilize it. However, it's plausible to suggest that certain principles of magic, as codified in Satanic magic and subsequently utilized by the Satanist, are in fact, theoretically undiscovered laws of physics.

It's no secret that the human psyche is a veritable wealth of unknown, puzzling and jumbled processes that science can only guess at.

None of this matters past my subjective musing, though. What's important is that you "suspend disbelief" long enough to test the utility of Satanic magic. Which brings to mind another Clarke's Law, which states "the only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible."

Remember, just as science, logic and reason (the tools of the skeptic) have not demonstrated beyond a shadow of doubt that God does not exist, neither have those same tools disqualified magic as a quantifiable force within nature. Some things are simply accepted, or denied. Where you stand is not important to me, provided that while you participate here, you understand the differences between real skepticism and pseudo-skepticism.

In 1987, Marcello Truzzi provided this analysis of the term, "since "skepticism" properly refers to doubt rather than denial — nonbelief rather than belief — critics who take the negative rather than an agnostic position but still call themselves "skeptics" are actually pseudo-skeptics."

Draw your line in the sand if you must, but be aware that not all are going to stand on your side of it, or be happy to entertain those who do stand on your side of the line. Also be aware that in certain contexts, flat denial without experiment deserves no consideration.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#222413 - 02/17/07 01:53 PM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Nekrogorgasm]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8265
Read the post above titled Debating Satanism.

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#222414 - 02/17/07 02:06 PM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Nekrogorgasm]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
This entire thread has now officially been beaten to death, so I'm just poking my head in to link to one of my old posts as proof that yes, it's possible for us rationalist-types to figure out rituals. (And that it's also entirely possible to approach the subject without being all uppity and confrontational.)

Danse Macabre: Some Reflections on Rituals

-Chess

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#222415 - 02/17/07 03:48 PM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Discipline]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11552
Loc: New England, USA
Quote:

Do you want someone to do a card trick for you or levitate?




This is much better analogy than the one I tried to make (equating the practice of magic with the subjectivity of experiencing a "favorite food").

In most occult circles, the word is spelled m-a-g-i-c-k. The reason is because they feel a strong need to distinguish themselves from people like David Copperfield and Penn & Teller. The two categories are not mutually exclusive, as far as Satanists are concerned. For starters, you need a willing suspension of disbelief at some level to enjoy either. That doesn't mean the same thing as self-deceit (recall the full wording of this sin in the "9 Satanic Sins" list). The "willing" part is important: I know a magician isn't "really" sawing a woman in half, just as I can watch a movie and know that what I'm seeing is not "really" happening. But if I'd keep telling myself this through the experience, then I'd be missing the point.

People need a degree of fantasy and enchantment, and a drive to get what we want. It's simply a biological byproduct of being hard-wired for pattern searching in addition to our primal drives of self-preservation. We could try denying this fact (like most religions do, for fear of losing the very "magic" of their fairy tales), or we could use it to rationalize away any awe-filled experience that comes up, good or bad (like atheists do). Or we can go with a third option: just take the concept and learn how to make it WORK for us, balacing enjoyment with rationality.

There, THAT'S what I was trying to say. Thanks for the unintentional set-up.
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http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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#222416 - 02/17/07 04:40 PM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11552
Loc: New England, USA
Quote:

Like I said before, I'm only here for information. I'm not anti-Satanist, and I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm simply asking for some information.




Understood. Just keep in mind that we do get the occasional troll in here who tries to play the game of "I'm an atheist and I'm going to debunk you!" So many of us have become wary by default of those who come to the board who don't identify as Satanists.

Quote:

But Satanic rituals are supposed to have some measurable, real-world results. Your favourite food is entirely subjective, but the results of a Satanic ritual aren't.




What I meant by the subjective experience of my favorite food, was not the fact that a "favorite food" changes from person to person. It's that when I eat a favorite meal, I can get really into the experience of it. I am in my own little world (alone at that restaurant) for half an hour, and having quite the experience. I see no point in "proving" that to other people, nor could I enjoy my meal if I were to keep saying to myself "I know this is just a chemical reaction that sends signals to my brain to interpret this as pleasure, and is furthermore driven by associations I've made of what this food should taste like, and past experiences which led me to making this a favorite food, and..." Yeah, that's all true, but so what?

Quote:

If you perform a ritual and someone ends up dying because of it, you cannot say that is subjective.




The key phrase here though is "because of it". Somebody else will see the chain of events and call it "coincidence". The fact that I might NOT take this same dismissal route shows that I'm knowingly experiencing something subjective. What "really" happened is beside the point. I hated this person, I got my consuming hatred out of my system by doing a Conjuration of Destruction, and now the vermin is dead. I don't go out of my way to try to rationalize; I rejoice.

It is, again, a subjective experience. Would spell casting fail in a scientifically controlled experiement? Most likely, yes. I'd have to wonder how though you could possibly set up two proper control groups that covered all the bases (e.g., how or why would I go about "cursing" some control subject I didn't know?). Science is a system that only accepts objective events: events that can be reproduced under the same conditions and be seen to different observers. We don't claim magic is science. In fact, that's kind of the whole point in calling it "magic"; trying to take the "magic" out of magic misses the whole point.

Quote:

Quote:

You CAN take a completely psychological view on magic, and still find it to be a useful tool. There are lots of Satanists who do so.



[...] that is definitely not true for some. There are numerous accounts of people angering LaVey and that resulting in their deaths. So it cannot be purely psychological.




What I mean is, there's enough room for more than one of these views. You can be Satanist who enjoys greater magic purely for the catharsis and psychodrama, not believing that anything was "sent out" in any way, and that's OK. Personally, I've sure experienced some thing where all I'll say is that I don't feel comfortable chalking it all up to "pure coincidence". As TSB explains, we don't go out of our way to define magic as being strictly one of either extreme.

Honestly, I've found hard-core atheist Satanists to be some of the most charismatic people in the ritual chamber. Perhaps it's because they do more critical thinking in the day-to-day world, that when they're in an environment to "let loose" on the fatansy elements, they sound really passionate and convincing in the ritual chamber. Even Magus Gilmore said that he didn't quite understand the whole "magic" and "ritual chamber" part of the book at first, but anybody who's had the pleasure of seeing him conduct a ritual knows how excellent of a ritual conductor he can be.
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's Übersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#222417 - 02/18/07 12:33 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Beardo]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12552
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
If you choose to wear a blindfold that does not mean that that others arte not enjoying the view.

We devote two entire forums to this issue for practical application in the members-only portion of this forum.

You can, of course, choose "certainty" over practicality.

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#222418 - 02/18/07 12:35 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Nekrogorgasm]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12552
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Quote:

I am just curious about the Magic of Satanism.




When you decide to get serious we have two forums devoted to the issue in the members-only forums.

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#222419 - 02/18/07 01:19 AM Re: Satanic Magic [Re: Nekrogorgasm]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
Quote:


Again, like I said, I may just not fully understand what Satanic Magic is.

Thanks to any feedback anyone can offer.




Then you "don't get it".

This isn't something that can be spoonfed to you like they do in the public education system.

The only way you will ever an inkling of how Satanic magic works is if you DO IT.

Emphasis being on ACTION and not armchair debates about "how it works". You don't always have to be acutely aware of exactly how a tool works in order to use it.
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"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

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