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#228630 - 03/21/07 11:15 PM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: Torquemada]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Humans who torture animals for entertainment should be shot. I don't give a fuck about their idiotic "cultural traditions."

They should fight each other to the death instead... since they think they are such badasses.
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#228631 - 03/21/07 11:28 PM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: Torquemada]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Just the other day I was considering American rodeos. Those country cowboys are always talking about how it is to tame the beast or to prove their courage.

I think it is idiotic. They piss the animal off in the first place and then go riding it around like they are drunk just to gain an adrenaline rush and to get the crowd to cheer. Wow, such brave assholes.

People who fool around with animals for kicks are morons. Did the animal ask for you to pester it in the first place? What other point does it serve to torture an animal other than for sadistic macho honor? Nothing!

Go play football or some other sport where all participants have consented.
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#228632 - 03/21/07 11:48 PM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: Discipline]
DarkWater Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 784
Loc: SinCity
Quote:

Killing an animal for food is just a part of nature. One thing must die for another's survival. Food produced animals are killed quickly (unless it is for religious reasons).



Most of the time this is true.

To be clear, I find bullfighting abhorrent.
If possible, I would destroy any human that unjustifiably hurt a non-human animal.

Discipline, I agree with you.
I also applaud the thoughts of Magisters Nemo and Svengali. Just let ABZU and I have a shot at predicting the outcomes of these combats!

Hurting animals within the context we are speaking is despicable.

But, nature presents puzzles that add complexity to this discussion.

First, it appears that sometimes non-human animals kill for the sake of killing -- i.e., arguably, sometimes they commit murder. I've read an account and seen video of primates carrying out an attack on a disliked member of their group. A gang of about a dozen worked themselves into a frenzy, hunted down the victim, and beat him out of the trees. Their strikes and stomps did not stop until long after he was dead.

Second, it appears that sometimes animals play with their food before killing and eating it, and that this "play" could be describes as sadistic -- i.e., causing great, unnecessary, and prolonged suffering for the victim while providing some type of benefit for the aggressor. Apart from examples of cats hunting mice or dogs killing birds, I have in mind a video of killer whales toying with seals. (One example of this can be seen here.) The whale captures the seal and then tosses it into the air. Again and again the whale throws the seal skyward, sometimes sending the creature 40 or more feet into the air. This "play" goes on until the seal dies and is eaten or, for whatever reason, the whale prematurely ends the game by ingesting what is little more than a light snack.

I realize that these ideas speak anthropomorphically and that many think such speech is dubious at best (sometimes myself among them). Nonetheless, I bring up these examples and describe them as I have to suggest that nature has a "sadistic" side. With this in mind, humans sadistically toying with and then killing bulls is not so much an aberration of nature, but rather another example of animal behavior at its worst.


DarkWater

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#228633 - 03/21/07 11:59 PM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: Svengali]
MagisterRose Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 2405
Quote:

Humans who torture animals for entertainment should be shot. I don't give a fuck about their idiotic "cultural traditions."

They should fight each other to the death instead... since they think they are such badasses




Now THAT'S entertainment.
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#228634 - 03/22/07 12:39 AM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: DarkWater]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Oh, I agree that murder and sadistic entertainment is not solely a human trait. It is a natural occurrence just like anything less. Criminal behavior is natural and so is rape, but that does not mean I have to agree with it. Death is natural and I fucking hate it.

Just because something is natural or universal throughout the animal kingdom does not suggest it is in the betterment of society or life itself. If everything that was natural was to be accepted then life would be pretty miserable.

Nature is cruel and unfair. However, humans have the ability to manipulate their environment for the better and I personally find sadistic behavior to be moronic and a waste of time.

I can watch my cat toy with a mouse all day long if I wanted too. But when my cat catches a mouse I will usually remove the little critter from my house. Now if my cat happens to kill the little guy I won't go and scold him for doing his job.

That is the way I see it and how I make my system work.

But I agree in context.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#228635 - 03/22/07 02:56 AM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: Mile_Highlander]
Noelia Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Spain
As I understand it, if a bull kills a bullfighter it is set "free" and is left to roam the fields in the countryside to have sex with many cows to produce a strong offspring...(i guess that is not too bad of an outcome!)
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#228636 - 03/22/07 06:55 AM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: Noelia]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Quote:

As I understand it, if a bull kills a bullfighter it is set "free" and is left to roam the fields in the countryside to have sex with many cows to produce a strong offspring...(i guess that is not too bad of an outcome!)




Wasn't the bull free to do that prior to being captured, beaten down, and then put into the ring?

What's the other alternative? What if he doesn't kill the bullfighter? Exactly.

There is NOTHING noble about Bull Fighting and NO ONE will ever convince Me that there is.

To Hell with all of them.
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#228637 - 03/22/07 07:22 AM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: Evil_Eve]
Noelia Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Spain
These bulls are not free before the corridas, they are raised specifically for this purpose, in any case I agree with you, bullfights are not noble but terrible affairs. However I must say that for most people in Spain killing a bull for fun is exactly the same as killing a cow for food...go figure!
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Si lo que tienes que decir no es mejor que el silencio, mejor no digas nada

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#228638 - 03/22/07 10:23 AM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: Noelia]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
My idea of sport:

And now, thanks to Walt Disney, when I think of bull fighting, I principally think of;

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"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#228639 - 03/22/07 11:50 AM Bankrupt Cultures [Re: Shade]
Marcato Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 273
Loc: Northern New England
This brings up one of my pet peeves: People that push the idea that every component of every society has some intrinsic cultural value.

There are a very few individuals who will admit that all cultures are not equal. Whether it’s Africans mutilating their daughter’s genitals, Muslim’s who think it’s their obligation to murder women who have been raped, or Spaniards trying to justify torturing bulls, the herd seems to think we need to be sensitive about condemning actions that are clearly counterproductive.

I’m glad to know there are a select few who know how to cut through the bullshit.
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#228640 - 03/22/07 01:13 PM Re: A cowardly "sport" in need of improvement. [Re: Nemo]
Torquemada Offline


Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Spain&UK
Well, I have read carefully all the threads and I see that people have very solid arguments and reasons against bullfighting. I thank everybody for their excellent posts, arguments, and lines of reasoning.

Your post about the origins of bullfighting is very accurate. Bravo, Magister.

Yes, Noelia is right. If a bull kills the bullfighter, he gets a very good life. He will be set free to procreate and have descendants, and he will be treated as a king.


I went to my first “corrida” when I was 4 years old, and I was fascinated. Later, my grandfather gave me as a present the “cossio”. This is an encyclopaedia which contains everything about bullfighting. Later, I knew personally matadors, and befriended two of them, very well known. I have lived the “mystique” of bullfighting since I was young. I had the privilege of hearing the stories that Matadores told me. I always admired them. There is nothing about sadism in a true admirer of bullfighting.

However, I am convinced of the legitimacy of my opinions, and I will never change my mind with respect to bullfighting. This being said, I only can say that I am off this thread, because it is not my wish to seek confrontation or offend anyone. I will never mention this topic anymore, and I will keep my opinions for myself in this particular subject. I just do not want to engage in a Byzantine discussion with intelligent people who have made clear, valid and reasonable points. I am better off this thread, because bullfighting is very deeply ingrained in my mind as something good and honourable. I just can not be impartial, neutral, or objective.

This is a matter in which I only can speak with passion. It is not actually appropriate to discuss this here, and I regret to have brought the subject to the forum.

If someone felt offended by my opinions, I apologise.



Best,

Torquemada

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#228641 - 03/22/07 03:32 PM Sorry but no. [Re: Torquemada]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12600
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I speak only for myself here.

I must judge your values and find them anti-Satanic.

My communications to you are now at an end unless you do alter your judgment regarding animal sacrifice and sadism.

Unless and until then, good bye.

I have punched the "Ignore This User" button for your posts.

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#228642 - 03/22/07 03:59 PM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: JysusCryst]
c23 Offline


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Heaven Street, Europe.
Well, I'm not sure it's Satanic but it certainly isn't legal so it's pretty much out of the question unless you're going for the throne of Manson.

Quote:

I'd like to put into my will that my body gets donated cannibals.


Will you ship out of the country? I might know a few people interested in giving you a try.
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#228643 - 03/22/07 04:00 PM Re: Sorry but no. [Re: Nemo]
Torquemada Offline


Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Spain&UK
I find your reply just a bit extremist to say the least. However, I do not want to make any trouble here, so, there is no need to press the ignore button. I leave without resentment, and I will not come back. You know very well that you are de facto banning me with such an announcement.

You also know that Bullfighting is not the reason of your “attitude” towards me. However, it does not really matter.


It has been a pleasure to stay here and meet so many interesting people. I hope all goes well for everybody.

Good Bye to ALL

Best,

Torquemada

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#228644 - 03/22/07 04:15 PM Re: Bull Fought Back [Re: Discipline]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Exactly.

This is perhaps completely sentimental of me, but because humans wield so much relative power over animals, and because we are aware of the ethical and other issues and can make choices, I believe we can and should rise above simply abusing or killing animals just for sport, or out of mere convenience.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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