#228600 - 03/17/07 04:26 PM
Bull Fought Back
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 5983
Loc: In transit
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(I've never understood this "sport". I'm sure this happens alot more often than I'm aware of but I still felt a sense of justice and smiled after reading about this schmuck bullfighter.) Matador's chances of fatherhood hurt by goring Thu Mar 15, 9:10 AM MADRID (Reuters) - If Spanish matador Fernando Cruz ever has children, he'll have doctors at the Valencia bullring to thank after he suffered a double goring. Cruz, 25, is recovering in hospital after the second bull of Tuesday's corrida caught him in the upper thigh, throwing him into the air, and gored him in the groin once he hit the ground. Newspapers reproduced the eye-watering bulletin issued by surgeons at the bullring after a two-hour operation and film of the incident was played on the main evening news. "Fernando Cruz is suffering from two horn wounds of 25 centimeters in length each. One involves the fibers of the abductor muscle and dissects the femoral artery, the other involves the scrotal area and eviscerates both testicles." Cruz was sitting up in his hospital bed on Wednesday. Astonishingly, he is expected to be back in action in around three weeks. source
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“Up where the smoke is all billered and curled
'Tween pavement and stars is the chimney sweep world
When there's 'ardly no day nor 'ardly no night
There's things 'alf in shadow and 'alfway in light" ~ The New Christy Minstrels
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#228604 - 03/17/07 06:31 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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CoS Member
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 1447
Loc: New England
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Another point for natural justice!
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"Infernal world; and thou profoundest hell
Receive thy new possessor! One, who brings
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#228609 - 03/17/07 08:51 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 19
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Ha! I love these examples- the type where stupidity actually is painful 
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The limitless potential of man is proven every day; from the imagination of pythagoras to the living reasons why poptarts contain instructions.
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#228610 - 03/17/07 09:00 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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CoS Reverend
Registered: 03/23/02
Posts: 1769
Loc: Avalon UK
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Quote:
Astonishingly, he is expected to be back in action in around three weeks.
I'll wager that this is not the sort of action his sexual partner(s) might be interested in...
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#228611 - 03/17/07 09:09 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Entity]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 5983
Loc: In transit
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#228613 - 03/18/07 11:14 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: HellofallHells]
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Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 273
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#228614 - 03/19/07 01:50 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Spain
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Well, this happens all the time although most injuries are not so severe...People that support bullfights use this as an excuse:
"-It´s a battle to death between the bullfighter and the bull-" (too bad the bull doesn´t get to choose whether he wants in or not!).
I don´t feel sorry for him, if you put yourself in front of a bull you should assume that something like this can happen to you!
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Si lo que tienes que decir no es mejor que el silencio, mejor no digas nada
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#228615 - 03/19/07 05:53 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 224
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I'm not what you would call an "animal lover", but I certainly would not support this kind of treatment of an animal. This so-called sport looks more like slow torture than a contest.
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#228616 - 03/19/07 06:11 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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CoS Member
Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
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"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie." "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it." Church of Satan
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#228618 - 03/19/07 06:53 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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CoS Member
Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
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Quote:
had to watch that peeking through my fingers and eyes snapped shut half the time!
Open your eyes for this one...
Running of the bulls...
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"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie." "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it." Church of Satan
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#228619 - 03/20/07 06:08 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Oklahoma
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What is it they do with the bull after they kill it??? I've heard both that they eat it in a big festival, and that they leave it for the buzzards out somewhere.
While I'm not for the bullfights, I'm not exactly against it if they eat the bull afterwards. It is still always fun when the bull gets its revenge though!
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No love lost on hatred spent.
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#228620 - 03/20/07 06:25 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: JysusCryst]
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Heaven Street, Europe.
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I cannot imagine the meat being good after all that hassle. The best meat comes from "relaxed" animals. The ones that are snuffed sitting in a Lazy Boy enjoying Ernest Goes To Jail with a bit of Sprite Zero and popcorn.
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"He has his father's eyes."
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#228621 - 03/20/07 06:37 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: HellofallHells]
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CoS Member
Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
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Quote:
I always root for the bull. 
As do I. Anyone who partakes in this barbaric 'sport' deserves to be disembowled by a nice sharp set of horns.
What is that We say? HORNS UP! Indeed.
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#228622 - 03/20/07 06:38 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: c23]
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Oklahoma
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#228623 - 03/21/07 03:42 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Mile_Highlander]
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Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Spain&UK
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Well, well, well. I know many people hate bullfighting. I know many people consider it a barbaric and atrocious show. However, I beg to differ.
I personally like bullfighting.
The first time I was in “Las Ventas”, the main “Plaza de Toros” (bullfighting place or arena) of Madrid, I enjoyed it very much. I was drinking wine, smoking a big cigar (Fidel Castro size) and I had a very good time there. In fact, for several years I was a usual visitor of “Las Ventas”. I love “corridas”.
It is not a sport. It is an art. In fact, it is the only art in which the artist can be killed. It has happened several times. Several bullfighters have died from the wounds inflicted by the bull.
Many people say bullfighting is barbaric. I do not think so.
Bullfighting is a millenary tradition. You can like it or dislike it. However, it remains a very noble sport. If the bullfighter is being attacked by the bull, there is not a sniper from the police or private security to shoot the bull. The bull has some ways to defend himself. When you go to hunt you go with rifles. The hunters are so valiant¡¡¡¡¡
They are always at a safe distance, and protected by gunfire. I would like to see a hunter in Africa to go to hunt a lion with a sword and a red piece of clothe. It would be real fun. I know some black people went to hunt lions with spears. Bravo for them. That is noble indeed.
People say it is degrading for the animal. I do not think so. The bull has three options:
1. An eccentric millionaire can keep him alive.
2. He gets killed because his meat is going to be sold.
3. He can fight in a “corrida”.
Certainly, the bull has no choice. But their end is much better if they can fight instead of being killed peacefully and methodically by an electrical shock in a farm.
I prefer them to run, be brave, and try to catch the bullfighter. Who remembers the name of an animal sacrificed for eating?
Many people remember the names of the most valiant animals. They fought, they died with certain honour. People in the world of Toros respect very much the animal. They do not mock him. They fight with him following the rules of the tradition. Does the animal suffer? Yes. But also has the opportunity to give back. And sometimes the animal gives back. Sometimes the animal kills the other animal in human shape. I do not pity the bullfighter. He has chosen his job, and he knows what can happen to him.
I have heard some hunters express their disapproval about bullfighting. That sounds ironic to me. People who enjoy getting into a car and go to a forest with a rifle, and shoot some defenceless birds are cowards if you compare them with bullfighters. Has a bird any chance against pellets? Of course, they would not risk their precious lives. A bullfighter does risk voluntarily his own life, fighting with a furious beast of 600kg. The bird hunter, fox hunter, or whatever, comes back to his 4X4 perfectly safe. I say: COWARD.
They say bullfighting is degrading. What’s more degrading than going to a forest and kill with an expensive weapon an animal who can not defend himself? At least the Toro has a chance. I never heard of a fox hunter who got killed by the fox. I also never heard of hunters getting killed by birds. But I have heard of bullfighters being killed by Toros.
It is not a game, it is not barbaric. It is just a peculiar mixture of art and sport. I can understand the point of view of those who dislike bullfighting. But I wonder if they are also against hunting, death penalty, eating meat, fishing, etc?
When someone eats a lobster, and I do like them, the lobster is burnt alive in boiling water. Just for the fun of people eating in a table with candles, and wearing shoes made with babies of crocodile (Manolo Blahnik???). Furs of bison? What’s more degrading?
When you eat some fish, that fish was killed because someone put a thin cord with a little harpoon inside a river. Then, the fish suffers horribly having metallic wires in the throat, and finally dies from asphyxia in the bag of a guy who is happily with their children. They all look at the fish, they laugh, they are excited. The fish is an animal in agony. But that is politically correct. It is so cosy and lovely to go to a beautiful wood to suffocate fish with your granddad¡¡¡
I am not going to get radical or fundamentalist here. I am not such a person. I have exaggerated on purpose. I have been carried away by my passion, as I love bullfighting.
My point is: we should think better, there are many wrong things in life that we all do. It is easy to say that some things are barbaric. But if one thinks just a bit, one will realise that there are around us many more barbaric, degrading and scary things than bullfighting.
To sum up: you can like it, or not. I do like it.
By the way, I also have fun when the bull gets the ass of a bad bullfighter.
Best,
Torquemada
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#228624 - 03/21/07 05:41 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Torquemada]
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Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 224
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So tell me, Torq..... If the bull kills the fighter, does it get to leave the arena, or does it have to face another fighter?
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#228625 - 03/21/07 06:13 PM
Re: Bull Fights are disgusting
[Re: Torquemada]
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CoS Member
Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 957
Loc: Flanders - Europe
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Keep the following rule in mind.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
As a Satanist I personally cannot approve the torture of an innocent animal.
This is not for food..but for folklore.
And the word 'attacked' is out of place in this case.
An animal got provoked, got beat-up and got drugged before they torture it in front of a sheering audience.
Let it almost bleed to death and cut off ears and tail while still alive.
I find it strange that you call yourself a Satanist and are in favor of bullfights, my two cents here.
This is a disgusting tradition that needs to end.
You want arena's and old traditions in Spain?..stop using innocent animals.
Start using murderers, dope dealers, child molesters and scum of the earth and let 'em fight in gladiator style. This makes more sense to me.
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#228626 - 03/21/07 06:14 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Mile_Highlander]
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CoS Member
Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 957
Loc: Flanders - Europe
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Excellent question!
_________________________
He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog.
||.TSB Page 33.||
An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.
|| Benjamin Franklin ||
The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|| George Bernard ||
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#228627 - 03/21/07 09:31 PM
A cowardly "sport" in need of improvement.
[Re: Torquemada]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 11982
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
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I would be more impressed if the matador faced an unharmed, unexhausted bull ... and without any weapons. What? You mean he would almost always be killed outright if an unexhausted, unwounded bull actually attacked? Ah yes. Pretty boring. Highly predictable. The reality as it IS. Just try to imagine the “entertainment” value of this scenario instead: Idiot antagonizes living death.
Idiot dies.
Bring out the next idiot. In modern times we generally assign “Darwin Awards” to such behavior - not "honor". The Spanish bullfight stabs, cuts and exhausts the bull down to the level of the “elegant” primate who, with "grace" and "courage", sometimes still gets chopped down. So the point of the bull fight is to see how bravely and gracefully the matador can move close to a still dangerous, but bleeding and exhausted animal? I see the same old preconscious assumptions behind all this. People afraid of their own mortality wish to see death “in the flesh”. If the matador can bravely face death and live, then this symbolic contest will magically enable the audience member to somehow "defeat" death - by proxy? Uh. This never works however. Blood sacrifice is a fundamental to the bull killings of Mithras (from which bullfighting stemmed) and is an integral part of the theology of Christianity (the shedding of Christ's blood for the remission of sins), but is hardly Satanic. Curiously those who have actually faced uncontrolled violence and experienced death up front in their real lives (as in military action, for example) usually do not exhibit this desire and do not find such spectacles “entertaining”. It is however sadistic and unnecessarily cruel. Historically, the bullfights are what remain of the old Roman circus. That is a fascinating fact. It remains an atavistic piece of the past that shames the cultures that still practice it as public entertainment. The herd enjoyed seeing violence and blood then as well. Safely. As “sport”. From the stands. However I see bullfighting as a cowardly sport in need of severe improvement: Naked, weaponless single matador versus healthy, undamaged bull. But the outcome would be obvious. Generally your posts have been witty and interesting. This one causes me to raise both of my eyebrows, however. This religion is named “Satanism”, not “sadism”. Just a reminder to any who might read this.
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#228628 - 03/21/07 10:43 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Torquemada]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6795
Loc: Forever West
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Killing an animal for food is just a part of nature. One thing must die for another's survival. Food produced animals are killed quickly (unless it is for religious reasons).
Killing an animal to gain some "oohs" and "awes" is just plain vicious entertainment. You can cover a lot of ridiculous and sadistic things by simply concealing it under the disguise of honor and culture. But I don't buy it.
That is just my take on it.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney
"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman
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#228629 - 03/21/07 10:51 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Torquemada]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8125
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Wrong.
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"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher
"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan
"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll
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#228630 - 03/21/07 11:15 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Torquemada]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
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Humans who torture animals for entertainment should be shot. I don't give a fuck about their idiotic "cultural traditions." They should fight each other to the death instead... since they think they are such badasses. 
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Live and Let Die."If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges "I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa "As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant. "Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey “A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog
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#228631 - 03/21/07 11:28 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Torquemada]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6795
Loc: Forever West
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Just the other day I was considering American rodeos. Those country cowboys are always talking about how it is to tame the beast or to prove their courage.
I think it is idiotic. They piss the animal off in the first place and then go riding it around like they are drunk just to gain an adrenaline rush and to get the crowd to cheer. Wow, such brave assholes.
People who fool around with animals for kicks are morons. Did the animal ask for you to pester it in the first place? What other point does it serve to torture an animal other than for sadistic macho honor? Nothing!
Go play football or some other sport where all participants have consented.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney
"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman
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#228632 - 03/21/07 11:48 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Discipline]
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CoS Member
Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 784
Loc: SinCity
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Quote:
Killing an animal for food is just a part of nature. One thing must die for another's survival. Food produced animals are killed quickly (unless it is for religious reasons).
Most of the time this is true.
To be clear, I find bullfighting abhorrent.
If possible, I would destroy any human that unjustifiably hurt a non-human animal.
Discipline, I agree with you.
I also applaud the thoughts of Magisters Nemo and Svengali. Just let ABZU and I have a shot at predicting the outcomes of these combats!
Hurting animals within the context we are speaking is despicable.
But, nature presents puzzles that add complexity to this discussion.
First, it appears that sometimes non-human animals kill for the sake of killing -- i.e., arguably, sometimes they commit murder. I've read an account and seen video of primates carrying out an attack on a disliked member of their group. A gang of about a dozen worked themselves into a frenzy, hunted down the victim, and beat him out of the trees. Their strikes and stomps did not stop until long after he was dead.
Second, it appears that sometimes animals play with their food before killing and eating it, and that this "play" could be describes as sadistic -- i.e., causing great, unnecessary, and prolonged suffering for the victim while providing some type of benefit for the aggressor. Apart from examples of cats hunting mice or dogs killing birds, I have in mind a video of killer whales toying with seals. (One example of this can be seen here.) The whale captures the seal and then tosses it into the air. Again and again the whale throws the seal skyward, sometimes sending the creature 40 or more feet into the air. This "play" goes on until the seal dies and is eaten or, for whatever reason, the whale prematurely ends the game by ingesting what is little more than a light snack.
I realize that these ideas speak anthropomorphically and that many think such speech is dubious at best (sometimes myself among them). Nonetheless, I bring up these examples and describe them as I have to suggest that nature has a "sadistic" side. With this in mind, humans sadistically toying with and then killing bulls is not so much an aberration of nature, but rather another example of animal behavior at its worst.
DarkWater
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#228633 - 03/21/07 11:59 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Svengali]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 2380
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Quote:
Humans who torture animals for entertainment should be shot. I don't give a fuck about their idiotic "cultural traditions."
They should fight each other to the death instead... since they think they are such badasses
Now THAT'S entertainment.
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#228634 - 03/22/07 12:39 AM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: DarkWater]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6795
Loc: Forever West
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Oh, I agree that murder and sadistic entertainment is not solely a human trait. It is a natural occurrence just like anything less. Criminal behavior is natural and so is rape, but that does not mean I have to agree with it. Death is natural and I fucking hate it.
Just because something is natural or universal throughout the animal kingdom does not suggest it is in the betterment of society or life itself. If everything that was natural was to be accepted then life would be pretty miserable.
Nature is cruel and unfair. However, humans have the ability to manipulate their environment for the better and I personally find sadistic behavior to be moronic and a waste of time.
I can watch my cat toy with a mouse all day long if I wanted too. But when my cat catches a mouse I will usually remove the little critter from my house. Now if my cat happens to kill the little guy I won't go and scold him for doing his job.
That is the way I see it and how I make my system work.
But I agree in context.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney
"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman
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#228635 - 03/22/07 02:56 AM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Mile_Highlander]
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Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Spain
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As I understand it, if a bull kills a bullfighter it is set "free" and is left to roam the fields in the countryside to have sex with many cows to produce a strong offspring...(i guess that is not too bad of an outcome!)
_________________________
Si lo que tienes que decir no es mejor que el silencio, mejor no digas nada
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#228636 - 03/22/07 06:55 AM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Noelia]
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CoS Member
Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
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Quote:
As I understand it, if a bull kills a bullfighter it is set "free" and is left to roam the fields in the countryside to have sex with many cows to produce a strong offspring...(i guess that is not too bad of an outcome!)
Wasn't the bull free to do that prior to being captured, beaten down, and then put into the ring?
What's the other alternative? What if he doesn't kill the bullfighter? Exactly.
There is NOTHING noble about Bull Fighting and NO ONE will ever convince Me that there is.
To Hell with all of them.
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#228637 - 03/22/07 07:22 AM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Evil_Eve]
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Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Spain
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These bulls are not free before the corridas, they are raised specifically for this purpose, in any case I agree with you, bullfights are not noble but terrible affairs. However I must say that for most people in Spain killing a bull for fun is exactly the same as killing a cow for food...go figure!
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Si lo que tienes que decir no es mejor que el silencio, mejor no digas nada
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#228639 - 03/22/07 11:50 AM
Bankrupt Cultures
[Re: Shade]
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CoS Member
Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 273
Loc: Northern New England
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This brings up one of my pet peeves: People that push the idea that every component of every society has some intrinsic cultural value.
There are a very few individuals who will admit that all cultures are not equal. Whether it’s Africans mutilating their daughter’s genitals, Muslim’s who think it’s their obligation to murder women who have been raped, or Spaniards trying to justify torturing bulls, the herd seems to think we need to be sensitive about condemning actions that are clearly counterproductive.
I’m glad to know there are a select few who know how to cut through the bullshit.
_________________________
I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction.
Ayn Rand
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#228640 - 03/22/07 01:13 PM
Re: A cowardly "sport" in need of improvement.
[Re: Nemo]
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Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Spain&UK
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Well, I have read carefully all the threads and I see that people have very solid arguments and reasons against bullfighting. I thank everybody for their excellent posts, arguments, and lines of reasoning.
Your post about the origins of bullfighting is very accurate. Bravo, Magister.
Yes, Noelia is right. If a bull kills the bullfighter, he gets a very good life. He will be set free to procreate and have descendants, and he will be treated as a king.
I went to my first “corrida” when I was 4 years old, and I was fascinated. Later, my grandfather gave me as a present the “cossio”. This is an encyclopaedia which contains everything about bullfighting. Later, I knew personally matadors, and befriended two of them, very well known. I have lived the “mystique” of bullfighting since I was young. I had the privilege of hearing the stories that Matadores told me. I always admired them. There is nothing about sadism in a true admirer of bullfighting.
However, I am convinced of the legitimacy of my opinions, and I will never change my mind with respect to bullfighting. This being said, I only can say that I am off this thread, because it is not my wish to seek confrontation or offend anyone. I will never mention this topic anymore, and I will keep my opinions for myself in this particular subject. I just do not want to engage in a Byzantine discussion with intelligent people who have made clear, valid and reasonable points. I am better off this thread, because bullfighting is very deeply ingrained in my mind as something good and honourable. I just can not be impartial, neutral, or objective.
This is a matter in which I only can speak with passion. It is not actually appropriate to discuss this here, and I regret to have brought the subject to the forum.
If someone felt offended by my opinions, I apologise.
Best,
Torquemada
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#228643 - 03/22/07 04:00 PM
Re: Sorry but no.
[Re: Nemo]
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Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 211
Loc: Spain&UK
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I find your reply just a bit extremist to say the least. However, I do not want to make any trouble here, so, there is no need to press the ignore button. I leave without resentment, and I will not come back. You know very well that you are de facto banning me with such an announcement. You also know that Bullfighting is not the reason of your “attitude” towards me. However, it does not really matter. It has been a pleasure to stay here and meet so many interesting people. I hope all goes well for everybody.  Good Bye to ALL Best, Torquemada
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#228644 - 03/22/07 04:15 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Discipline]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12941
Loc: The Solid State
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Exactly.
This is perhaps completely sentimental of me, but because humans wield so much relative power over animals, and because we are aware of the ethical and other issues and can make choices, I believe we can and should rise above simply abusing or killing animals just for sport, or out of mere convenience.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#228645 - 03/22/07 04:24 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Old_Pig]
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Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1666
Loc: Denmark
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Quote:
I have a friend that was invited to such a spectacle when visiting Spain. He found the abuse of an animal for entertainment to be disgusting, but out of courtesy for the people who invited him, he just sat there and said nothing. Until the moment the bull managed to catch the matador with a horn and hurl him up in the air. My friend stood up and cheered!
Everyone around him looked at him like he was a Martian.
And he was like… “What? Not everyone has to root for the same team!”
I wanted to share a story about my father here, but you just shared almost the same story, so I guess I can be a lazy cat here
I can say this very simple, my father did the same as your friend when he was on holiday many years ago, they had to sneak him out of the backdoor so to speak.
I hate it when people hurt animals like that, why can't some people understand that animals got feelings too.
I want to share this story about Dolphin Mary, but I can't find an update on this story, so if somebody can, then please post it, because I want to know how this beauty is doing 
The story :
When the young dolphin was rescued from the Adriatic Sea, distressed and bruised, she was nurtured back to health by a dedicated trainer who took responsibility for her care.
Now the trainer is dead, the victim of a frenzied attack by her neighbour — and the dolphin, apparently, is dying of a broken heart.
Read the rest here : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1403428.ece
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#228646 - 03/22/07 04:30 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Svengali]
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CoS Magistra
Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2836
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
Humans who torture animals for entertainment should be shot. I don't give a fuck about their idiotic "cultural traditions."
They should fight each other to the death instead... since they think they are such badasses.
And that is why you're the man!
Can you imagine how limp someone's dick must be to need to publicly beat up a bovine to feel manly? Cultural tradition? I'd settle for some tapas and a print of Guernica.
Y~
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#228647 - 03/22/07 07:18 PM
Re: A cowardly "sport" in need of improvement.
[Re: Nemo]
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Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 3
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Torquemada is not a Satanist and wit means shit. Still-born Christ worshippers will always think they have a point. I, myself, find it amusing and entertaining. This guy is amusing. As well as every other Spanish "scholars" in here.
I hate having Spain in my blood, I'll always go for Itallian instead.
Torquemada and all his Spinard crew not only approve of animal torture but they also believe equal opportunities should be given to everyone. Read these. This Torquemada is hilarious.Readhim in Essays. How about his partner in crime NICOELIA : "willingness to comunicate has more value that speaking any language".
I hate the Spanish to death.I hate it. Hate it. Their language makes me cringe!
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS BULLSHIT! FUCK YOUR DUMB CULTURE!
Iti unbelieaveble these people... patriotism... Jesus !
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#228648 - 03/22/07 07:29 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Torquemada]
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Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 3
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How can you rejoice in watching an animal without rational skills being tortured? You are the trash of the earth. I don't give a shit if your losers Spinard friends and family told you it was ok. I hate with all my guts Spanish people. You can't represent a culture as sick as this. You can't represent ANY "culture" sinceyou're an idiot.
Edited by EDFS (03/22/07 07:32 PM)
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#228654 - 03/22/07 10:46 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1413
Loc: Banana, Canada
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This thread put sad in my happy. I was unaware the bull was supposed to be killed in the end. Now I know 
_________________________
Hi.
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#228656 - 03/23/07 02:41 AM
Re: A cowardly "sport" in need of improvement.
[Re: Nemo]
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Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 15
Loc: Egypt
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Quote:
I would be more impressed if the matador faced an unharmed, unexhausted bull ... and without any weapons.
I am against bull fight because I think that it is sick to attack without a reason.
But I also think that it is OK to exhaust your adversary and use every available weapon against him.
I never renounce to my strongest weapons only because my adversary is inferior, and to me, this seems fair.
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#228658 - 03/23/07 12:35 PM
Re: "respect"?
[Re: ModernTantalus]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 11982
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
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Quote:
but I can respect your past and history and why you'd enjoy it.
I personally have no respect for those who advocate the torture of animals.
None at all.
Those who think that respecting animal torture as a "sport" is being broad-minded or "intellectual" need to get a dictionary.
For what Anton LaVey had to say on the entire matter read Rule 10.
The Devil is a gentleman.
He is not a sadistic torturer of animals.
Bullfighting falls under the blood sacrifice practices from which we gained such delightful religions as Judaism and Christianity.
The torture of animals has nothing to do with Satanism.
That has been the explicit and absolute fact of the matter since Day One in Year One A.S.
Pure and simple.
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#228660 - 03/23/07 12:48 PM
Re: "respect"?
[Re: Nemo]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12941
Loc: The Solid State
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I just had a random thought.
I'm not much for bullfighting, either, and I'll even admit that rodeos don't always sit completely well with me, either.
But, there is perhaps one thing I can say about bullfighting--at least those poor people KNOW exactly where their free meat came from, and recognize that a bull died to feed them. (Whether they care or not is another matter.)
We in America are insulated from the deaths of so many animals that go into our steaks and burgers. It takes special effort to remember that one's chicken fingers were originally chickens.
No doubt that many of these slaughterhouses and factory farms are pretty crummy, and that many (though not all) food animals grow up in much worse circumstances than a bull who'll be in a bullfight.
In your opinion, how do you think Satanists should approach that issue, Magister? How do you approach it, if I can ask?
If we lived in a Satanic society, what would the parts of our society that involve animals look like?
Anyone else who wants to chime in is free to do so, of course.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#228661 - 03/23/07 01:06 PM
Re: "respect"?
[Re: TrojZyr]
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Banned
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 836
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I simply do not give business to the places that treat their animals unkindly -- or give their cows growth hormones. The places that care for their animals, giving them more room and better food, see that this is good for business. As it's usually roughly the same in cost, when people know about it, they'll probably get that meat, instead. Hopefully many people will do so, and other businesses not so gentle with their creatures will see they are losing customers, and change their ways. Also, hopefully -- by being an aware shopper, I believe I am aiding in a revolution -- one where people don't pump their cows full of things to make them taste better or stick them in tiny, enclosed spaces right next door to the cows being slaughtered. 
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#228663 - 03/23/07 01:16 PM
Re: How I approach it.
[Re: Nemo]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12941
Loc: The Solid State
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Think globally, act personally . Or something like that. I like the sound of "don't cover the world with leather, wear shoes."
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#228665 - 03/23/07 04:11 PM
Re: "respect"?
[Re: TrojZyr]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6795
Loc: Forever West
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The poor conditions of meat producing animals are a sad byproduct of a large population. It can be cleaned up a bit but there is a limit to how clean it can become considering the demand and output of the meat industry. A large population requires more meat and it will be delivered quickly and messy.
One way to correct this by either decreasing the human population (nice idea but it is unrealistic) or to improve technology. If people would promote research you can soon have meat grown in labs without killing a single animal and it could even taste better. Yep, I am not making it up. It is being researched as we speak.
As for being disconnected from death, that is fine by me. I have seen plenty of death and I would like to avoid it as much as possible.
If people are too disconnected and ignorant to understand that one thing must die for another then there really is no helping those fools.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney
"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman
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#228668 - 03/23/07 07:41 PM
Re: A cowardly "sport" in need of improvement.
[Re: evildork]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 11982
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
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Quote:
Quote:
I would be more impressed if the matador faced an unharmed, unexhausted bull ... and without any weapons.
Much more impressive, yes, but I just want to point out (not necessarily to you, Nemo) that this type of thing is no less cruel. From my point of view, the most uncomforting aspect about any similar event is that the animal can't and wouldn't choose to participate.
My point is that this won't happen.
If it does, the bull will win.
(And, yes, I am aware of Mas Oyama's old stunts).
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#228671 - 03/23/07 10:31 PM
Re: Excuse me?
[Re: Nemo]
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CoS Member
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 394
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Quote:
Racism is a poor substitute for intelligence.
Racism, animal cruelty, blood sacrifice and stupidity have no place in Satanism.
Nemo thank you for these words! This is why true Satanists are the ELITE of the ELITE! 99% of this wasteland called Earth is filled with the above mentioned .
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#228672 - 03/23/07 10:51 PM
Re: By the way...
[Re: Nemo]
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CoS Witch
Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12941
Loc: The Solid State
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Another brief off-topic question or two, Magister. (I'm working on a personal project of sorts, where two points of view have to be in equal dialogue with each other, so I want to be able to represent both the "put leather on the world" and the "wear shoes" views with equal accuracy and fairness.) How do you know when an issue is within or outside of your own sphere of influence? For example, the civil rights movement probably originally looked like a pipe dream, and the gay rights movement sometimes look similarly futile, but they have and will seemingly accomplish big things. If the people involved in these movements had been content to exist solely in their own sphere, they would've had to tolerate, presumably, not having certain rights and freedoms. I think you've said something in the past about mass movements being futile, so I want to know more about that. And, if we're sure that something absolutely is right---like treating animals well--or that something is absolutely wrong, how can we justify or explain not doing everything we can to fix the situation, especially since we say we care about animals and hate it when they suffer? Is trying to change the world a waste of time because it can't be done, or shouldn't be done, or because the fruits aren't worth the effort expended? Thanks in advance  .
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."
"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!
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#228674 - 03/24/07 11:44 AM
Re: A cowardly "sport" in need of improvement.
[Re: Nemo]
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Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 211
Loc: Portugal
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Actually, in Portugal, they do have something like that. They don't kill the bull in the arena here. They do still use those stupid spears, it seems... (but no swords). I think it's the horsemen who use those. But otherwise, they have either one man or groups of men facing the bull without any weapons or protection, and I believe their goal is to grab the animal and make it fall or so. At the end, either the bull is taken to be killed with a professional butcher, like all others, for food; or it is sometimes healed and taken care of, then sent to pasture for breeding. I'm not sure of the rules and details of it. Never been to any of those things myself. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if there is still one place in Portugal (Barrancos) where they still allow the bull to be killed, or not... I certainly don't support the practice nonetheless. Or see any supposed "fun" in it. However, it's still often better in Portugal than it is in Spain.
_________________________
-YK-
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#228675 - 03/25/07 05:25 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: JysusCryst]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 11982
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
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Quote:
I'm not exactly against it ...
You are living up to your name.
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#228677 - 03/25/07 05:54 PM
Re: How I approach it.
[Re: Nemo]
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Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1439
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
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Quote:
I wear shoes.
Those are some damn fine shoes too!
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#228678 - 03/25/07 10:36 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Nemo]
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CoS Member
Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm not exactly against it ...
You are living up to your name.
Indeed...
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#228679 - 03/26/07 02:30 AM
Re: Same story.
[Re: Nemo]
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CoS Member
Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 798
Loc: Australia
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Quote:
If one is going to butcher an animal for food it is not Satanic to torture the beast before hand.
On another note, as c23 said this also decreases meat quality. Not to mention that meat from female animals seems to unanimously taste better than meat from male animals (I think its the hormones, even if they're de-sexed).
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#228680 - 03/26/07 02:53 AM
Re: Same story.
[Re: Nemo]
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Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 211
Loc: Portugal
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Much agreed.
I'd also like to mention something that I believe no one has talked about in this thread so far, but that sure deserves to be pointed out.
Most people (obviously) focus all on the bull, and often completely forget something else. The horse, when there is one.
Those "beautiful, noble horses" are treated anything but with loving care. They too must suffer the bull's attacks, in only vain attempts to escape. Also, as the animals panik, the horsemen force spurs into their ribs, causing deep wounds and infections that every bullfight lover appears to ignore. Where's the "nobility" in it for the horse?
Some of those horses really suffer severe injuries, not only at the bull's expense, but at the rider's, too.
I remember my mother telling me about this years ago when we bumped into one of those things on TV. It was disgusting, as the image I have most clear of it are both exhausted animals bleeding from very ugly looking cuts.
Like I did say, it's usually better in Portugal. But it's never good.
_________________________
-YK-
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#228681 - 03/26/07 05:00 AM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Shade]
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Registered: 03/25/07
Posts: 12
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#228685 - 03/26/07 07:41 AM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: JysusCryst]
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CoS Member
Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not exactly against it ...
You are living up to your name.
When I say I'm not exactly against it, I mean that I am not against a man entering a ring with a bull armed with only a sword and piece of red cloth for a battle to the death (or only injured in the case of the man). Though I am against the fact that they use a weak and exhausted bull.
My view is that while the bullfight is cruel, it's also a chance to let the animal live. As someone said before, if the bull kills the matador, it is set free. If the bull dies, than it is used for food, which is in accordance to the 10th Satanic Rule of the Earth.
I think of it like this. If I was raised my entire life only to be killed in a slaughter house, I'd much rather die in a battle which gave me a chance to escape instead of being killed in the death chamber peacefully.
Living is one thing. Being FORCED into battle for sport IN ORDER TO be 'able' to continue to LIVE, is an entirely different thing. It is CRUEL and SADISTIC.
We all hear of the stories of Pit Bulls, Dobermans, Rotties, EVEN CHICKENS who are put into a pen together to fight it out to the death. This is all for SPORT and PROFIT and ENTERTAINMENT.
Are you against these things? I am. Bull Fighting takes this one step further. They don't 'arm the bull with a sword'. They beat the Bull down. Even if they didn't, it still is NOT a fair battle and even if it WERE it is still a barbaric sick and twisted practice. Your logic is seriously flawed.
Get back up on the cross honey....
<CLICK!>
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#228686 - 03/26/07 11:51 AM
Scientists create a sheep that's 15% human
[Re: Shade]
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Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1666
Loc: Denmark
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I just read this story ...  Now scientists create a sheep that's 15% human Scientists have created the world's first human-sheep chimera - which has the body of a sheep and half-human organs. The sheep have 15 per cent human cells and 85 per cent animal cells - and their evolution brings the prospect of animal organs being transplanted into humans one step closer. Professor Esmail Zanjani, of the University of Nevada, has spent seven years and £5million perfecting the technique, which involves injecting adult human cells into a sheep's foetus. He has already created a sheep liver which has a large proportion of human cells and eventually hopes to precisely match a sheep to a transplant patient, using their own stem cells to create their own flock of sheep. The process would involve extracting stem cells from the donor's bone marrow and injecting them into the peritoneum of a sheep's foetus. When the lamb is born, two months later, it would have a liver, heart, lungs and brain that are partly human and available for transplant. "We would take a couple of ounces of bone marrow cells from the patient,' said Prof Zanjani, whose work is highlighted in a Channel 4 programme tomorrow. "We would isolate the stem cells from them, inject them into the peritoneum of these animals and then these cells would get distributed throughout the metabolic system into the circulatory system of all the organs in the body. The two ounces of stem cell or bone marrow cell we get would provide enough stem cells to do about ten foetuses. So you don't just have one organ for transplant purposes, you have many available in case the first one fails." At present 7,168 patients are waiting for an organ transplant in Britain alone, and two thirds of them are expected to die before an organ becomes available. Scientists at King's College, London, and the North East Stem Cell Institute in Newcastle have now applied to the HFEA, the Government's fertility watchdog, for permission to start work on the chimeras. But the development is likely to revive criticisms about scientists playing God, with the possibility of silent viruses, which are harmless in animals, being introduced into the human race. Dr Patrick Dixon, an international lecturer on biological trends, warned: "Many silent viruses could create a biological nightmare in humans. Mutant animal viruses are a real threat, as we have seen with HIV." Animal rights activists fear that if the cells get mixed together, they could end up with cellular fusion, creating a hybrid which would have the features and characteristics of both man and sheep. But Prof Zanjani said: "Transplanting the cells into foetal sheep at this early stage does not result in fusion at all." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/ar...ource=&ct=5
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#228687 - 03/26/07 12:20 PM
Re: Scientists create a sheep that's 15% human
[Re: LightAngel]
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CoS Member
Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
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Not nitpicking but how do you figure this article fits in this thread?
_________________________
"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie." "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it." Church of Satan
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#228689 - 03/26/07 12:39 PM
What a bunch of bull.
[Re: JysusCryst]
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CoS Magister
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 11982
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
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Quote:
I think of it like this. If I was raised my entire life only to be killed in a slaughter house, I'd much rather die in a battle which gave me a chance to escape instead of being killed in the death chamber peacefully.
What a bunch of bull.
YOU can make a choice.
The BULL is not given a choice.
The torture of animals is against Satanic principles.
This is not an issue of debate.
You are wrong in this view as a Satanist.
Can you correct your understanding or will false pride cause you to cling to animal cruelty instead?
Thank it through.
It is really a black and white issue.
"Satanism requires study." -ASL
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#228690 - 03/26/07 12:41 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: Torquemada]
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Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 40
Loc: alabama
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Quote:
When you go to hunt you go with rifles. The hunters are so valiant¡¡¡¡¡
They are always at a safe distance, and protected by gunfire.
I deer hunt on a regular basis. When I kill it is clean, quick, and painless, the deer never knows I was there. And I have been attacked by a deer, as a matter of fact I have a 8 inch scar down my chest from his hoove. Simply put you have your opinion, I have mine. And my opinion is that bullfighting IS unfair and barbaric.
Hail Satan!
_________________________
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." [Einstein]
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
Hail Satan!
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#228692 - 03/26/07 01:05 PM
Re: It would only be animal abuse if...
[Re: Nemo]
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CoS Member
Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 273
Loc: Northern New England
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Magister, this is something I've been wondering: Can an animal be euthanised without irreparably damaging it's tissue and organs? I've long assumed that the reason no one has pushed for "food animals" being euthanised, is that it leaves you with a pile of poison meat. And if that's the case, wouldn't it make sense that you'd have to slaughter an animal for organ harvest? I'm not a chemist, or a biologist, so I'm not sure if there are chemicals that can peacefully dispatch a creature but leave its vital organs intact. Maybe someone here can shed some light on this.
_________________________
I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction.
Ayn Rand
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#228694 - 03/26/07 01:14 PM
Re: Scientists create a sheep that's 15% human
[Re: LightAngel]
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CoS Member
Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
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Quote:
I was thinking about posting a whole new topic, but I thought it was ok to post it in here because some people might consider this to be animal abuse also
How many of those people do you suppose would choose death over a liver transplant simply because it was created using human stem cells into foetal sheep.
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"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie." "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it." Church of Satan
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#228696 - 03/26/07 02:57 PM
Re: Bull Fought Back
[Re: JysusCryst]
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Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1439
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
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I think of it like this. If I was raised my entire life only to be killed in a slaughter house, I'd much rather die in a battle which gave me a chance to escape instead of being killed in the death chamber peacefully.
You sound as if you belong in a slaughter house.
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#228698 - 03/26/07 04:52 PM
Re: What a bunch of bull.
[Re: Shade]
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Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 306
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Maybe he was thinking that he should have stayed in school or maybe he wished that he didn't have to try so hard to prove what a hero he is or maybe he thought he should have just enjoyed his life a little more.
Edited by Groundhog (03/26/07 05:03 PM)
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#228699 - 03/26/07 05:07 PM
Re: What a bunch of bull.
[Re: Groundhog]
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CoS Member
Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
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Maybe he was thinking that he should have stayed in school or maybe he wished that he didn't have to try so hard to prove what a hero he is or maybe he thought he should have just enjoyed his life a little more.
It doesn't matter. That should have NEVER happened. I don't care if they feed the homeless/needy with it. Nothing justifies this type of abuse to an innocent animal. Makes Me Damned angry. 
If someone wants to feed the hungry fine. Do it quickly and respectfully. Don't play games with the poor creature.
I'm going to back out of this thread, it only hurts Me, and I don't normally subject Myself to things I need not to.
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#228700 - 03/26/07 05:07 PM
Re: What a bunch of bull.
[Re: Shade]
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CoS Warlock
Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6795
Loc: Forever West
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Sadly I am sure that bull fighter lived.
I highly doubt that bull is enjoying the sport with those spears stuck into his thick hide.
Culture, an excuse to be idiotic.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney
"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman
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#228701 - 03/26/07 05:29 PM
Re: What a bunch of bull.
[Re: Evil_Eve]
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Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 306
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I hope that you don't think I'm sad that he's getting gored. I rejoice that the tables were turned and the matador's getting trounced and not the other way around, but I will never like this sport either way.
Edited by Groundhog (03/26/07 10:00 PM)
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#228702 - 03/26/07 05:50 PM
Re: What a bunch of bull.
[Re: Shade]
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Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 224
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Quote:
Quote:
What a bunch of bull.
No, this is a bunch of bull. I wonder what this "bullfighter" is thinking....
(Mexican bullfigther Joselito Adame is pinned down by a bull during a bullfight in Las Ventas, Madrid Sunday March 25, 2007.(AP Photo/EFE, Paco Campos))
.....The fastest Lord's Prayer ever in history, perhaps??? 
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