Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#23516 - 01/30/04 06:25 PM LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello all,

Question as I'm writing a book about Satanism V. Humanism LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft and would like people's thoughts on such idealogy to include in a section of my manuscript.

I am but a humanist, a poet, cynic, author of a mere two books, but want to know if people view LaVey as a fraud and a fake, or, evil, or influencial, or life changing with his views, did he use Crowley's "do what thou wilt" as ideas behind his philosophy, from Crowley who used his ideas from HP Lovecrafts Necronomicon?

The Satanic Bible - read it? like it? still got it? any interesting stories, thoughts, comments releating to it?

Much appreciated if anyone would like to submit their reasonings, please therefore email ftmexec@yahoo.com.

Top
#23517 - 01/30/04 06:31 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

...but want to know if people view LaVey as a fraud and a fake, or, evil, or influencial...




Well, since you are posting this on a website for Satanists, I highly doubt you will find any who find Dr. LaVey as a fraud or false here.

Patricia

Top
#23518 - 01/30/04 06:35 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Anonymous
Unregistered


Personally I don't think he is, some do however and the "comment" is not meant to offend.

I find the philosophical ideas put forward in the Satanic Bible like looking in the mirror each day.

I'm just curious as to how people perceive the comments I've made ad basically I'm looking to inlcude in my project arguments from all walks of life, both sides of the story so to speak.

Top
#23519 - 01/30/04 06:49 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Mr_Atrox Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1814
Loc: Lycopolis
You clearly have time to kill. Had you been serious about the information you 'seek', you would, quite easily, have discovered the proper avenues. Your motivations are, at best, translucent.
But hey, it's all entertainment. I might suggest;however, a modification with respect to your current approach.
"Your going the right way for a smart bottom." -Shrek

"I'm just curious as to how people perceive the comments I've made ad basically I'm looking to inlcude in my project arguments from all walks of life, both sides of the story so to speak."-Humanist
Have you thought about asking Sasquatch? He's got the greatest anecdotes.
_________________________
"If you wanna hurt me, you're gonna have to earn it motherfucker."
-Mickey Rourke

Top
#23520 - 01/30/04 06:54 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ??? [Re: Mr_Atrox]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well I'm new around here and you "americans" obviously aren't as friendly as I thought you may be.

Maybe my approach is alien, maybe thats the way we do thing here in the UK.

Contstructive critisicm please ...

Top
#23521 - 01/30/04 06:55 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Blackheart Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 389
Loc: England
Just a small word of warning:

A lot of people come here doing research for their books, theses, surveys, etc, and not many get answers.

Satanists, as a general rule, do not like being studied . The Church of Satan has official spokespersons who are chosen specifically to speak on behalf of the Church. I am sure that if you contact the administration, they will consider your project if you are a serious writer.

Top
#23522 - 01/30/04 07:01 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Contact the Church of Satan. No one here can official talk for CoS, besides those of the Priesthood.

I am sure you are just looking for personal opinions but that doesn't make for good printed material.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

Top
#23523 - 01/30/04 07:02 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ??? [Re: Blackheart]
Anonymous
Unregistered


As I've said, I'm new around here, so please bear with me, and my niavety.

I'm already exploring the avenue you put forward, outside of the USA, "satanists" and "humanists" and "laveyans" are often not taken serously.

I do not wish to upset the applce cart, I am sincere and serious regarding my original post.

Top
#23524 - 01/30/04 07:06 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
For one, Dr. LaVey spat upon occultniks like Crowley. Crowley was naught but a drug-compulsed dirty old man who put on airs of being "evil". I've read Crowley, and find numerous disparities between Dr. LaVey's methods, and Crowleys compulsions.

I doubt you will find many here than think Dr. LaVey is a "hack" or poseur. In fact posting such ideas around here might find yourself getting more than a few acidic replys.

The Gazelle gallops into the Lions den, jests that the Lion is but a Zebra, and then asks for "constructive criticism".

Amusing.

"Allow me to show you my fangs and claws." says the Lion.


Edited by Felstorm (01/30/04 07:09 PM)
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

Top
#23525 - 01/30/04 07:11 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft [Re: Felstorm]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Again, the method of approach in the UK is somewhat uncomfortable in the USA, so I apologise, no need to be on the defensive, we're "allies" remember?

Top
#23526 - 01/30/04 07:28 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
"Allies", he says.

*chuckles bemusedly to himself*

Seeing as you are new here, I'll just refer you to the CoS Website and to the stickies at the top of the forum. Heed well Reverend Svengali's articles.

Much to learn you have, Humanist.
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

Top
#23527 - 01/30/04 07:33 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
This may be a website owned by an American but you will find people on here from all over the world. It isn't an issue of things being done differently in the UK than the USA. You came onto a messageboard run by a CoS Priest and were asking for opinions on the founder of Satanism. No Satanist considers the founder of their religion to be a fraud. If we thought that then we wouldn't be Satanist. Any person who calls themselves a Satanist yet dismisses Dr LaVey's teachings is NOT a Satainist. Think about it.........it would be like a Christian calling Jesus a fake yet still claiming to be a Christian.

Crowley has nothing to do with Satanism. He formed his own religion based on judeo-christian and tantric mysticism.

Lovecraft has nothing to do with Satanism. He just created a very vivid and original overall concept for his stories

If you're wanting to do a comparrisson of Humanism and Satanism then I would recommend looking very closely at their respective ethical systems. THAT is where the real difference lies.

Top
#23528 - 01/30/04 07:33 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft
MagisterParadise Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 3262
Loc: Burlington, VT
30 Jan XXXIX A.S.

Quote:

did he use Crowley's "do what thou wilt" as ideas behind his philosophy, from Crowley who used his ideas from HP Lovecrafts Necronomicon?



The short answer is no. Read The Satanic Bible and find out why. Already read it? Read it again. Carefully.

As for Crowley, he is not the originator of "Do What Thou Wilt" as Sir Francis Dashwood had adopted it previous to Crowley for his Hellfire Club, and before that, it traces back to Rabelais. And "Thelema" is also borrowed, this time from a 19th century work of fiction, which borrowed it from another work of fiction by, once again, Rabelais. In short, a concept based on a fiction based on a fiction.

And, yes, that was my version of generosity... rare as it is.
_________________________
Ever Forward!
Magister Matt G. Paradise - Church of Satan

****** READ DIABOLOGUE OFTEN ******

Purging Talon | On Facebook | On SatanNet
Bearing The Devil's Mark @ Amazon | The Book of Satanic Quotations @ Amazon | Terror Transmission

--------------------
"The world isn't black and white. It's grayscale" - Steve Wozniak

Top
#23531 - 01/30/04 10:06 PM Haggis
Klarkesh-Ton Offline


Registered: 07/21/01
Posts: 548
Loc: Ozark Wonderland
Um, Lovecraft was 14 when Crowley wrote his _Book of the Law_. Lovecraft didn't publish any fiction until twelve years after Crowley's statement, and didn't publish regularly for three more years. The Ol' Beast had already established his views long before Lovecraft could've been anything even close to a significant influence.

Hope your two books aren't as error-ridden as your post.
_________________________
“Do not fix your burning eyes on me when you speak about love. If you want to impress me when you speak about love put your hand in your pocket or under your dress and play with yourself.”

Top
#23532 - 01/30/04 10:45 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft
Shiboleth Offline


Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Presumptous one aren't you? Aside from that fact that not everyone here is an American, you seem to be expecting the good folks here to be falling all over themselves eager to answer questions that would be more easily obtained had you contacted the church itself or one of its representatives.


Edited by Shiboleth (01/30/04 10:49 PM)
_________________________
this is a recording...

Top
#23533 - 01/30/04 11:18 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft [Re: MagisterParadise]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Apparently Crowley contributed nothing.

Top
#23534 - 01/30/04 11:20 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Anonymous
Unregistered


You're writing a book? What is your "idealogy" when it comes to writers in relation to syntax, spelling, and grammar?

Top
#23535 - 01/30/04 11:41 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Citizen_Parker Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 217
It seems to me that you might have a difficult time writing such a book, if only because the Satanic standpoint is fairly simple (as I'm sure you've noticed from the other replies).

You would probably have to resort to many sources outside the Church of Satan to find enough varied material and ideas to warrant an entire book. This is undesirable, as the vast majority of these other sources intentionally misinterpret Satanism to best fit into their way of reasoning, resulting in more or less invalid discussion.

Overall, I believe the book you are attempting to compile has already been written. Might I suggest you pick up Blanche Barton's The Church of Satan. Re-reading The Satanic Bible a few times wouldn't hurt, either.
_________________________
Hail Satan!

Parker

Test Everything. Believe Nothing.

Top
#23536 - 01/31/04 02:00 AM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft
Shiboleth Offline


Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Alberta, Canada
There was nothing to contribute to when Crowley was stationed here on the Plane of Discs.
_________________________
this is a recording...

Top
#23537 - 01/31/04 03:32 AM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
When did you start writing your new book about Satanism, and what prompted you to write it?
_________________________
www.vampiretemple.com
Are You One Of Us?

Top
#23538 - 01/31/04 07:39 AM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
If you want to write a book, which I assume will be a non-fictional one, you have first to learn to discern between fiction and reality.

The Crowley-Lovecraft connetion is one of the older pieces of bullshit circulating around the Internet. The “Necronomicon” is a fictional book that has never existed. So Crowley couldn’t develop his magic system from an inexistent book.

And Doctor LaVey definitely didn’t base his on Crowley’s work. (There is little that can be used out of Crowley’s drug induced babbling anyway…) Read his books and you will draw your own conclusions.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


Top
#23539 - 01/31/04 01:54 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
NaamahPink Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 417
Loc: Kentucky
First, what makes you think that we want to help you in your research? You proclaim you have written two books previously, but fail to give the titles of these books. When did they get published, who is the audience, and how widely distributed are these works?

Obviously, if your prior writings are rubbish Satanists would have no interest in aiding you write a lousy or slanderous book about the religion to which the members of this message board subscribe. Credentials mean something in the real world, and that includes Satanists!

Secondly, you are a Humanist writing a book that compares Satanism and Humanism. Does that sound objective to you? It is improbable that your book will be objective or accurate, since one can only presume that your book will slanted to your views.

The grand summary is that you are coming onto a message board and asking us as Satanists to donate our time to help you with your research without providing credentials in order to write a book that supports your opinion that Humanism is superior to Satanism. Is that about right? Have you ever considered that such a book has no to little audience?

There are two markets for books on the topic of Satanism that are regularly supported. Books by fundamentalist Christians that portray an alarmist view about Satanism, often in the under the guise of "true crime" books that have a lot of innuendo, myth, and no facts. The second market is books about Satanism by Satanist who are accomplished, for which Satanists are the audience. What is your audience? Perhaps Humanists in need of justification as to why they are "right" about the world around them!

My suggestion to you is to rethink if this is even a worthwhile project, which I doubt. If you really want a good objective view, which is doubtful, I would suggest contacting the CoS, and fully explaining your intentions. Then, if they feel that your project is objective and constructive to the goals of the CoS, they can put you in touch with the appropriate people, namely agents and hierarchy who are willing to aid you in your endeavors. If you are not looking for objective information, then please leave this message board and the CoS alone, and base your alarmist pro-Humanist writing on propaganda, as that is after all what the public enjoys most.

Also, keep these things in mind. Only people appointed by the CoS can officially speak for the CoS, namely agents and the hierarchy of the CoS (Note: I am not amongst these people). Secondly, the Church of Satanism IS Satanism, and failure to understand this in your choice of sources will be doing your reputation a great disservice.

Top
#23540 - 01/31/04 03:03 PM Re: LaVey (influenced by) Crowley (influenced by) Lovecraft ???
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Quote:

outside of the USA, "satanists" and "humanists" and "laveyans" are often not taken serously.





"Lack of Perspective" is a Satanic sin, declared as such by LaVey. So is "Solipsism".

I realize that many people do not take Satanists seriously. If you are referring to those people whom choose to dismiss us, and are implying that we should be aware of it, we are. I didn't read your original statement as an insult, but I've learned that if you are going to speak phenomenologically, you need to clarify your statement as such, otherwise you'll be misinterpreted.

On humanism:

Humanism involves entirely too many excuses and rationalizations for the mistakes that humans make. It expects sympathy and courtesty where it is not deserved. Satanism is "brutal". It means that each person is responsible for ALL of their actions. The "assumption", if you will, is that the individual is supposed to be in control of their own lives, and therefore we do not constantly excuse others for making mistakes. You own up to your mistakes, deal with it, and suffer the consequences in Satanism. In humanism, from my perception, there is a constant expectation of pity and tolerance that Satanists do not have. To me, excusing everyone every time they make a mistake, or giving credibility to every "special" circumstance is like living in a society of handicapped people or even people who want to be handicapped when they are not, physically. Satanists are opposed to that kind of human vulnerability and weakness. We make mistakes just like anyone else, but the difference is in how we are expected to be accountable for those mistakes. There is no reason for saying "3 strikes and you're out", only to evolve into "4 strikes", then "5". Bullshit. You made a mistake once, you pay for it once. You stand on your own ground and live to the best of your ability without being an annoyance to others, or being dependent on others sympathies and pity. That's Satanism. Humanism is different. We ARE NOT "allies" in the sense of friendship or "truce". We are "allies" only in the sense of rational toleration for other people's choices. That's the most you'll get from Satanists.
_________________________
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

Top
#23541 - 01/31/04 03:34 PM A "nice" response
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
I'll tell you this much:

You're profile reads "beginner". This means that you've come onto the messageboard without knowing much. I, for one, don't get pissed off just because you don't understand Satanism fully and completely. There are rules on this board that you have to have a preliminary understanding of the Satanic Bible before you start talking, but since I am not one who bases my reactions from what the rules say, I'll give you a one time chance to learn something. If your profile said, "Satanic Master" I would have to serve you your due punishment.

However, regardless of how you get your information, we often take offense at books that want to sort of unite all opinions into one, or share "both sides", blah blah blah. The reason we take offense is because these literary works rarely give a fair chance to Satanism and tend to minimize the whole picture, manipulate words inaccurately, and render false representations, which are all very discouraging. One of the quirks about Satanism is that you have to be a Satanist in order to understand it. If you understand Satanism perfectly and can reiterate it, then you're most likely a Satanist. Therefore, a humanist writing about Satanism is nine times out of ten going to put more trash into the public eye. We don't really want that. No information is better than crappy information. Plus anything that sites the Church of Satan specifically should pass through administration before being published.

I wouldn't mind seeing a book like you're describing, (I'd probably glance through the one pertinent page if I found it on the shelf) so long as there is a good accurate amount of information about Satanism in it, and that it recognizes the very essence of the word "Satan": the accuser - the opposer, etc. We are vehemenently opposed to most other religions and philosophies, and revel in the importance of playing the role of rebellious, self-interested catalysts towards change and individuality in society.

I hope that satisfies your expectations of kindness, but next time, this isn't a group hug ceremony. You're going to have to think harder and play smarter, and stop being such a flower child if you want to hang around here.
_________________________
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Forum Stats
12216 Members
73 Forums
43998 Topics
406127 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements