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#237314 - 04/19/07 06:15 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: Maqlu]
leonor Offline


Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Portugal
I totally agree with you, except for the method (at least for the time being). While equating the obstacles, I realized there might be more feasible approaches that could be set the practice right now, to start eliminating part of the problem, without messing too much with the herd values, and have the whole thing politically aborted right from the start. Like it or not, numbers speak louder when it comes to politics. So the herd is still needed for politics to turn in the right direction.

Money works wonders on those environments, you’re absolutely right there, but compulsory sterilization is not feasible, for the time being is it? Now, how would the middle class public respond to the idea, of having irresponsible parents FINED or PENALIZED, for neglecting their children, by breeding more on a impoverished or decadent environment? (Remember not only their sentiment for “the unfortunate children”, but also their selfish motivations as they realize it will most likely diminish crime, taxation, and improve their life style in the long run). Maybe well enough to have politicians to consider regulating those situations more strictly and save money on the process. Maybe after that sterilization wouldn’t look as obnoxious, for all those who didn’t want to be fined or penalized.
Money works wonders, withdraw the money and it will work twice as better. Leave alone the fact no one would have to “bribe” anyone. Sterilization is not illegal, compulsory sterilization still is. Except for serious sexual offenses.
One less problem: Voluntary sterilization.
I’m sure crackheads would be first.
We’re not talking science fiction, nor megalomaniac ideals here, are we? Eugenics is possible, but has to be accepted. Extreme measures subscribed by negative eugenics, are not rational, nor acceptable, therefore not feasible. Who would assume responsibility for such an agenda, or the criteria to implement it? Realistically?

Eliminate the source, yes, but leave it to the source to eliminate itself in the long run, by withdrawing their artificial means of survival, or turn their own compulsions against them, (maybe "bribe" the latter a little, for a matter of speach - If you want crack you know you'll have to stop breeding).

october1560
_________________________
Time does not imply evolution. Very true. We are stepping back. One generates haunting monsters that generate haunting monsters on an endless spiral of misunderstanding, unsolved needs, moral amulets eradicating both the sickness and the cure.
I see a bunch of men raging at the void, haunted by their own inventions. Absurd. Totally absurd.

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#237318 - 04/19/07 06:35 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: Mr Sam]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
After reconsidering my statements I still think that eliminating certain people would be beneficial. Many factors would have to be weighed before determining whether a person would be worthy of death. Are they productive or a drain on the economy? Do they carry horrible and incurable diseases? Are they chronic criminals? There is a long list of people that I am sure many would agree to see removed permanently from society. Exceptions could be made for the great minds and the responsible.

Genocide may be the wrong term if it is meant only in a racial context.

I am just musing on the possibilities of using genocide. I doubt it is in itself economically feasible. Like Ixmucane said, "Who would bury all those people?"

As far as the "ultimate good" of the human race is concerned, yes, I would support any cause that benefits all people, so long as it included me.


Edited by HoundDog (04/19/07 06:37 PM)
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#237332 - 04/19/07 07:17 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: leonor]
Maqlu Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 1673
Oh, I know there's no way compulsory sterilization would go over in the current and foreseeable climate. We're still hearing the bitching about the last time they tried such a thing (with patients in insane asylums in the earlier part of 1900s, possibly into the 60s.) And there's no end to complaints and handwringing about China's one-child policy, even though that does allow for limited breeding.

That's why I suggested paid (voluntary) sterilization - probably the best way to get the ball rolling. As you said, crackheads will be first. They'd look at even a payment of a thousand dollars and drool. The big issue might be figuring out an iron-clad waiver such that the state doesn't get sued later when said crackheads are enticed by lawyers promising an even bigger payoff from a lawsuit.

I like your fines and penalization idea. People would certainly get behind that (so long as they figure no one will ever investigate them!) ;\) Neglect of current children first, maybe later it could be expanded into the "breeding more on a impoverished or decadent environment". And making it clear there will be no more increases in welfare for more children. Of course, it begs the question of what to do with druggie parents who don't have the money for a fine. I don't think the jails could hold them all, even with short incarcerations. We can't seem to hand out effective sentances to parents who beat their kids to death, let alone for smaller abuses.

Negative eugenics in any form would certainly be a logistical nightmare, and you're right that it is effectively a pipe dream as things stand now. Although, every so often there's a story on the news about a rash of lethal overdoses whenever a particularly pure shipment of heroin comes to town, but it never seems to last long.

It's just that the main problem I see with implementing positive eugenics on a mass scale is that every idiot I've ever met truly believed themselves to be the greatest person on earth. I'm not seeing how such people could ever be convinced that these ideas are referring to them. The source does not want to eliminate itself.

(And the smart, creative, useful people usually tend to at least try to marry up the ladder, so they tend to practise positive eugenics on their own.)

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#237365 - 04/19/07 09:22 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: leonor]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3409
I have a question for you, the general discussion seems to be focusing on positive eugenics regarding the lower classes.

Why? There are just as many shallow vapid drones in the middle and upper clases as they are in the lower and the sub classes.

Part of what I'm trying to understand, is how you make eugenics appealing to a large number of people. Despite decrying all sorts of ideals of making a better society, people still want to have babies. A lot. They spend most of their lives trying to find a mate just so they can do just that, whether they consciously acknowledge their extreme efforts or not. From this perspective, voluntary sterilization seems unfeasible.

The extreme cases of child abuse are just that, extreme. But those don't concern me as much because laws do prevent these somewhat. There seem to be far more regular every day people who have no fucking clue how to actually connect with their kids, much less raise them to be creative, productive, human beings.

And my other concern is that herd mentality works to our society's advantage doesn't it? Millions of people keeping the ever-churning economic wheel going.

I understand the idea of responsibility, and the notion of not breeding if I carried a serious disease. But I still wouldn't want legislature preventing me from doing it.

Maybe I'm just having a hard time picturing what the 'ideal' situation would be. Less people overall, slowly bred into more conscious, intelligent human beings?

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#237399 - 04/19/07 11:24 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: Maqlu]
leonor Offline


Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Portugal
 Originally Posted By: Maqlu
That's why I suggested paid (voluntary) sterilization (…) The big issue might be figuring out an iron-clad waiver such that the state doesn't get sued later when said crackheads are enticed by lawyers promising an even bigger payoff from a lawsuit.


You’re right: Paying them for sterilization is much more risky than fining them, and have them whish for one instead. They broke the rules and were fined. Period. What they decide to do afterwards is their decision. The option of sterilization should be suggested to them, during the legal proceeding, but never forced upon them.

 Originally Posted By: Maqlu
I like your fines and penalization idea. People would certainly get behind that (so long as they figure no one will ever investigate them!) ;\)


Second step: This would indirectly discourage hypocrites to step on the red line, and indirectly encourage them to blow the whistle on those who did. Expanded prophylactic measures: The herd always keeps a watch on the neighbours in face of new regulations. People are mean. One should take advantage on that, and find some more.

 Originally Posted By: Maqlu
Of course, it begs the question of what to do with druggie parents who don't have the money for a fine.


Detox and social work of course.

 Originally Posted By: Maqlu
Negative eugenics in any form would certainly be a logistical nightmare, and you're right that it is effectively a pipe dream as things stand now. Although, every so often there's a story on the news about a rash of lethal overdoses whenever a particularly pure shipment of heroin comes to town, but it never seems to last long.


I do not see a rash of lethal overdoses as negative eugenics, just the natural consequence of greedy smugglers, combined with the urge of their patrons. That’s life.

 Originally Posted By: Maqlu
It's just that the main problem I see with implementing positive eugenics on a mass scale is that every idiot I've ever met truly believed themselves to be the greatest person on earth. I'm not seeing how such people could ever be convinced that these ideas are referring to them. The source does not want to eliminate itself.


Honestly, I see positive eugenics in a mass scale as remote as negative eugenics. But you’re making a good point. Maybe the solution is not to implement it, or advertise it, but have some sort of stepped information made available to the interested parties instead, along with self-evaluation tests that would encourage or discourage the subjects to step further.

october1560
_________________________
Time does not imply evolution. Very true. We are stepping back. One generates haunting monsters that generate haunting monsters on an endless spiral of misunderstanding, unsolved needs, moral amulets eradicating both the sickness and the cure.
I see a bunch of men raging at the void, haunted by their own inventions. Absurd. Totally absurd.

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#237458 - 04/20/07 03:09 AM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
Genocide implies killing people with 'inferior' genes, not people who are a social and/or economic strain.

I do not disagree with you on the fact that some people are better off dead, such as criminals, but this is murder, not genocide.

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#237469 - 04/20/07 04:48 AM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: leonor]
The_Sixth_Circle Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 432
Loc: Hell; where else?
 Quote:
Maybe the solution is not to implement it, or advertise it, but have some sort of stepped information made available to the interested parties instead, along with self-evaluation tests that would encourage or discourage the subjects to step further.

In my original post on this topic, the ultimate idea I was heading at was summarised in one word:

Education.

Because eugenics, as a term, is still seen as the first stepping stone to Nazi genocide (something discussed above, actually), people don't accept it as a rational point of view. And why do they think that such a result is destined if we set foot on the slippery slope?

Because they've been told to.

I wrote the original post in a small attempt to encourage discussion; it's been successful. But because there are almost as many people who think of eugenics as an unlikely pipe dream as there are those who support it wholeheartedly, the discussion has gone in all directions.

Opinions are limiting; facts mean everything.

In the United Kingdom right now, there is too much capital being wasted on a population boon that has two sources; immigration and the lower classes breeding to make more money from welfare. And because Britain is becoming the most left-wing state in the world, there isn't enough people willing to take real action into doing something about it.

Why do you think the BNP (British National Party), despite a clearly racist agenda, is gaining more noteriety and support? The people think that they are the only alternative to a large influx of unskilled immigrants. And because most of the policies the party pushes are clearly right-wing, they would deal with many other problems in the same way.

Remember:

Left Wing - The Utopian Vision (the belief that people are moulded from scratch by a better society and require legislature; Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Blair).

Right Wing - The Tragic Vision (the belief that people are naturally greedy, selfish and lazy and in need of law and order; Hobbes, Machiavelli, Thatcher, Cameron).

Just remember that it only takes one snowball to start an avalanche; especially in the political sense. And because a right-wing party always places high emphasis on law and order, we're taking a step in the right direction.

I mentioned teen pregnancy earlier. There are already laws prohibiting this, so why do the government elect to ignore these laws? The individual should have a termination and then be tried. Once that's happened to a couple of people, watch the figures nosedive. Dr. LaVey knew all too well that people respond to fear and pain more than any other stimulant, as they lack the sensitivity to deal with subtleties. The current police in Great Britain are toothless hounds and, what's worse, the people know it. A police officer can spend a fortnight doing paperwork on a criminal they've arrested and/or charged, only for a liberal judge to impose an insult instead of a sentence.

Though diving off the beaten track somewhat, the point I'm making is that eugenics is clearly a difficult premise for people to stomach at this stage. But it's something that education can "undemonize" to the point where it's at least discussed as a solution to certain social problems. The political machine requires stronger willed individuals than it currently has, more than that, individuals who stop believing society is infinitely malleable.

It's not.
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Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived. - Sir Oscar Wilde

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#237558 - 04/20/07 11:43 AM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: Entity]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
It sounds like Dr. LaVey's idea of sex surrogate would be a great alternative as well.
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#237579 - 04/20/07 01:02 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: Zaftig]
leonor Offline


Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Portugal
 Originally Posted By: lexiphanic
I have a question for you, the general discussion seems to be focusing on positive eugenics regarding the lower classes.

Why? There are just as many shallow vapid drones in the middle and upper clases as they are in the lower and the sub classes.


You’re quite right. Fact is they do not breed as much. This may seem crude, but it covers more than one aspect and also wouldn’t harm anyone with a balanced life.
First it would low the numbers in the long run, secondly it would low the odds in the short run, and discourage minor derelictions on children. This is just part of the problem. Yet I do not see it too difficult to act upon those situations in the short run.

 Originally Posted By: lexiphanic
Part of what I'm trying to understand, is how you make eugenics appealing to a large number of people.


You don’t. Not eugenics, per se. What you do have is a number of situations which ought to be solved, which are already appealing, and would ultimately favour selective eugenics in the long run.

 Originally Posted By: lexiphanic
Despite decrying all sorts of ideals of making a better society, people still want to have babies. A lot. They spend most of their lives trying to find a mate just so they can do just that, whether they consciously acknowledge their extreme efforts or not. From this perspective, voluntary sterilization seems unfeasible.


One thing is to have babies, another thing is to breed them as faeces and leave them to rot in the open sky, dysfunctional families breeding three more, generation over generation. I do not agree with negative eugenics. Yet I do agree that sort of people should be discouraged to breed, by all means. Crime poverty and drugs are not the only problems, yet they give way to other problems, at a wider range - but that would be another topic (Is The Need for Safety Making All of Us Mutants?).

 Originally Posted By: lexiphanic
The extreme cases of child abuse are just that, extreme. But those don't concern me as much because laws do prevent these somewhat. There seem to be far more regular every day people who have no fucking clue how to actually connect with their kids, much less raise them to be creative, productive, human beings.


That’s right. But positive eugenics does not equal changing the world, it would merely enhance the effects of natural selection. That’s exactly why I find mass solutions utopic. There will always be such people. What I think is that improvements may lead to further improvements, and further approaches will give way.

Positive eugenics standing for natural selection, and vice-versa.

 Originally Posted By: lexiphanic
And my other concern is that herd mentality works to our society's advantage doesn't it? Millions of people keeping the ever-churning economic wheel going.


I once read an interview of Magister Gilmore where he said something, which I interpreted as follows:

Causes are no longer to be fought for with a sledge hammer. Just get people in the direction you want them to.
If you want to change politics you’ll have to get to the herd first. Which do you think the role of activists is? Work the masses…
Of course there are other ways to do it.

october1560
_________________________
Time does not imply evolution. Very true. We are stepping back. One generates haunting monsters that generate haunting monsters on an endless spiral of misunderstanding, unsolved needs, moral amulets eradicating both the sickness and the cure.
I see a bunch of men raging at the void, haunted by their own inventions. Absurd. Totally absurd.

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#237641 - 04/20/07 06:14 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: TrojZyr]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
TrojZyr, your comment reminded me of a Bill Hicks routine:

"This is it, folks. This is the idea which has kept me virtually unknown for the past 16 years. I have watched my crowds dwindle. I am going nowhere, and nowhere quick, but, those of you who have children, I am sorry to tell you this, but they are not special. Wait! I know some of you are going: "What, what?" Let me just clarify: I know you think they're special … ha ha ha! I'm aware of that. I'm just here to tell you that they're not! Ha ha ha ha! Sorry. Did you know that every time a guy comes, he comes two-hundred million sperm? One out of two-hundred million – that load, we're only talking about one load – connected: Gee, what are the fucking odds? Do you know what that means? I've wiped nations off of my chest with a grey gym sock. Entire civilizations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel! […] I've tossed universes in my underpants while napping. Boom! A Milkyway shoots into my jockeyshorts: "Unngh … what's for fucking breakfast?!"




I'm laughing to myself as I recall the first time I listened to the above bit. I'll have to make a Bill Hicks signature quote...
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
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“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#237643 - 04/20/07 06:21 PM Margaret Sanger [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
Excellent essay, Sir!

I am certainly a proponent of eugenics, both positive and negative.


You might be interested in reading about Margaret Sanger.

She was a fascinating bird with some eccentric ideas, many of which a Satanist might find relevant to this discussion and just in general.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#237781 - 04/21/07 10:49 AM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
I had just seen a comedy that relates to this topic. "Idiocracy" starring Luke Wilson.

The premise of the movie has an average joe placed 500 years into a future where all humans have the reasoning capacity of a four year old. The beginning of the movie has a scene that shows how stupid people breed like rats as opposed to the controlled manner in which intelligent people breed.

The movie has an interesting take on a possible future, exaggerated of course. Very possible if humanity continues down the "ignorance-is-bliss" path.
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#238086 - 04/22/07 05:18 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: The_Sixth_Circle]
leonor Offline


Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Portugal
I don’t think the memory of Nazi Genocide is the only reason why people antagonize with the idea of eugenics.

Mass immigration brings along racism, for the reasons you’ve already mentioned. That’s inevitable. The scenario you have just described is extensive to all European countries which political obligation after decolonisation, some 30 or 40 years ago, included harbouring immigrants from ex-colonies.
It’s only logical side effects are just starting to be a subject of true apprehension, now the guilt is gone and the effects of excessive breeding are starting to show under the shape of very resented 3rd generation teens, already entitled to citizenship therefore much more capable of effective political blackmail.

For decades (and also because of WWII memories) Governments were too concerned in staying politically correct and guilt-free to:

1) Keep immigration rational.
2) Foreseeing the social consequences of irrational immigration policies.

This is even more obvious in a country such as mine, since we were emerging from a fascist regime, and therefore more prone to fall into the opposite extreme.

Many immigrants were forced to lead miserable lives, because no one had the guts or the vision to understand, it would be better to keep them out, than facing responsibility for not giving them the proper conditions to live, once they were allowed in and started to derelict. Tolerance was the big left wing slogan by then. And some derelictions were hypocritically “excused” just to compensate a heavy conscience. It’s only logical so many of them played the victims, and found excuses to derelict even more. The rest of the story is known - Resentment, double sided racism, etc., etc.

But despite all the social distress caused by mass immigration, the herd is not prone to assume responsibilities and therefore prefers to stick to its morals. They know this situation has led xenophobic and nazi ideals to go stronger than ever. They find themselves thinking as racists while prompting against racism. They pray for a solution, but they dare not thinking of one. Being rational will simply fill them with guilt. So they antagonize anything reaching close their darkest thoughts.

It’s only obvious xenophobic groups to take advantage of such mined grounds and the fact there so much political cowardice just increases the odds of irrational fanaticism to grow and burst out, preventing solutions to be explored as rationally as they should.

october1560


Edited by leonor (04/22/07 05:20 PM)
_________________________
Time does not imply evolution. Very true. We are stepping back. One generates haunting monsters that generate haunting monsters on an endless spiral of misunderstanding, unsolved needs, moral amulets eradicating both the sickness and the cure.
I see a bunch of men raging at the void, haunted by their own inventions. Absurd. Totally absurd.

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#238261 - 04/23/07 12:12 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: Mr Sam]
VictorC Offline


Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 12
What is your personal definition of inferior genes?
I would hardly see myself being in a "lower" category of gene strains...
as i would believe most of us would not think this way as well..

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#238263 - 04/23/07 12:18 PM Re: Satanism and Eugenics [Re: Ixmucane]
VictorC Offline


Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 12
We just dump them, fertilizers are very much needed. \:o

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