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#237774 - 04/21/07 10:21 AM LaVey & Ayn Rand
Sir_Trojan Offline
Banned

Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 10
Although I am familiar with The Satanic Bible, I found something that was very interesting.

It has been shown that LaVey took some 'inspiration' from Ayn Rand--which in a way surprises me, as most of the "Satanic Philosophy" or "Occult Sciences" she spoke of, were based traditionally on Theistic (Traditional) Satanism. Which of course, is the Worship of the Christian Satan/Devil. Now, as LaVey had spoken about on several occasions, that LaVeyan Satanism, the Church of Satan, and general Modern Day Satanism, was not the "reverse" of Christian beliefs/propaganda. Now, as a LaVeyan Satanist myself, I did find this rather odd. I have been through the Church of Satan Web site through & through, but have failed (either because I have not paid close enough attention, or it just isn't there...) to find an answer to the unusual question, that I have spoken.

Now, this isn't me trying to be some pseudo-Satanist, or attempting to besmirch LaVeyan Satanism (or the CoS) in anyway, it's just I have yet to locate on this Forum, CoS Web site, or any other site the answer to my theory. And, as I do not have any proof or logic, it is not my place to make guesses, or accusations. However, the objective of this post is to find out if any of you may have a simple answer for my theory.

Regards,
Nathan

Hail The Ego!

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#237777 - 04/21/07 10:26 AM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
Minus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 2236
Loc: Circling A Star
 Quote:
I have...failed...to find an answer to the unusual question, that I have spoken.


I have failed to find your question for the unusual answer you seek.
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#237788 - 04/21/07 11:34 AM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
Nuno Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 239
Loc: Portugal
The inspiration taken from Ayn Rand comes from her excelent book Atlas Shrugged, specially passages from John Galt's speech.

In fact, if you study it carefully you will find that even though the book has been printed in 1957 and The Satanic Bible in 1969, it could have been the other way around. Like others have pointed, the passages from Galt's speech are more a companion to the actual Nine Satanic Statements than an inspiration.

I don't consider it degrading in any way. Satanism is the religion of Man, and a book like The Satanic Bible could have never been printed without outside inspirations. It's a book about the primitive human nature, its feelings and needs. It is more than common that you would find a lot of books printed before The SB that focus on similar subjects.

It has always been the wish of Man to be free from the castrating moral of Christianity. Satanism isn't the Anti-Christianity. Satanism is the opposite of Christianity, thus the meaning of the word "Satan".
Just because you don't do it the same way, doesn't mean you should deny it or be anti it.

Apart from D. Lavey's books I can point you other books of Satanic interest like Might is Right from Ragnar Redbeard; Thus Spoke Zarathustra from Friedrich Nietzsche; In Defense of Elitism from William Henry III. These are my personal favorites.

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#237789 - 04/21/07 11:37 AM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
 Originally Posted By: Sir_Trojan
LaVeyan Satanist


Where did you get this term from? There are no other types of Satanism.


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#237791 - 04/21/07 11:42 AM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
as most of the "Satanic Philosophy" or "Occult Sciences" she spoke of, were based traditionally on Theistic (Traditional) Satanism.


Your sources on this would happen to be claiming that they themselves are "Theistic Satanists", would they?

There is no such thing as "Theistic" or "Traditional" Satanism. That term sprung up after the emergence of the Church of Satan amongst those who wanted to practice Satanism but couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that it's not about worshiping the Devil.

There's also no such thing as "LaVeyan" Satanism.

Satanism has no denominations. When someone claims that it does, you can be sure that it's because there's something in The Satanic Bible that they don't agree with. Typically they like all the talk about "individuality" and think that gives them free reign to pick and choose what they want from the rest of the book.

Once you start to remove pieces of The Satanic Bible (or any other bit of Satanic dogma) you're left with something that is not Satanism. At best it is nothing more than a cheap imitation.

As for your question about Ayn Rand's influence on Anton LaVey's work, it is true that Anton LaVey drew some inspiration from Objectivism. What did you expect? Religions and philosophies are not the product of direct revelation, they are the distillation of their founders' knowledge and experience.

For further reading on the similarities and differences between Satanism and Objectivism, look here.


Edited by Virus9 (04/21/07 11:43 AM)
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#237792 - 04/21/07 11:42 AM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Sir_Trojan
Although I am familiar with The Satanic Bible, I found something that was very interesting.

It has been shown that LaVey took some 'inspiration' from Ayn Rand--which in a way surprises me, as most of the "Satanic Philosophy" or "Occult Sciences" she spoke of, were based traditionally on Theistic (Traditional) Satanism. Which of course, is the Worship of the Christian Satan/Devil. Now, as LaVey had spoken about on several occasions, that LaVeyan Satanism, the Church of Satan, and general Modern Day Satanism, was not the "reverse" of Christian beliefs/propaganda. Now, as a LaVeyan Satanist myself, I did find this rather odd. I have been through the Church of Satan Web site through & through, but have failed (either because I have not paid close enough attention, or it just isn't there...) to find an answer to the unusual question, that I have spoken.

Now, this isn't me trying to be some pseudo-Satanist, or attempting to besmirch LaVeyan Satanism (or the CoS) in anyway, it's just I have yet to locate on this Forum, CoS Web site, or any other site the answer to my theory. And, as I do not have any proof or logic, it is not my place to make guesses, or accusations. However, the objective of this post is to find out if any of you may have a simple answer for my theory.

Regards,
Nathan

Hail The Ego!


Where did Ayn Rand talk about "Satanism" or "occult sciences" at all?

Answer: She didn't.

Where were there any actual explicit Satanists BEFORE the Church of Satan?

Answer: There were none.

1. Check the copyright dates.

2. Stop filling your mind with bullshit.

Or don't.

If you can't then go away.
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"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
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#237795 - 04/21/07 11:52 AM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Quote:
I do not have any proof or logic


What would impel you to assert anything unfounded in proof or logic?
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#237797 - 04/21/07 12:14 PM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Nuno]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
Thus Spoke Zarathustra

Yes. A very good book. My favorite one actually.
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#237804 - 04/21/07 01:48 PM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
ClownBoy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/06/07
Posts: 77
Loc: North Carolina
Satanism is Satanism there is no denomination. You are either a Satanist or you are not. You cannot say there are two types and the reason you cannot is because saying so would be lying.


HAIL SATAN
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#237806 - 04/21/07 01:49 PM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I have been through the Church of Satan Web site through & through, but have failed (either because I have not paid close enough attention, or it just isn't there...) to find an answer to the unusual question, that I have spoken.


You didn't "speak" a question.

What's your question?
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reprobate

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#237833 - 04/21/07 03:32 PM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Sir_Trojan
However, the objective of this post is to find out if any of you may have a simple answer for my theory.


Yes, I do:

1) ALL religions have their share of influences. Even if we go along with the claims of some who say their dogma comes directly from the words and biography of one single prophet (let alone go along with the claim that such figures were real historic people in the first place), you can still see how they were influenced from other religions. For example, there are good reasons why Islam has emphasis on concepts that had already showed up on Christianity and Judaism, and good reasons why Buddhism has borrowed a number of concepts from Hinduism. And there are good reasons why none of these religions share much in common with religions from completely different geographical regions.

2) Satanism is no exception to this. LaVey had his share of influences, which he openly acknowledged. Just read "The Secret Life of a Satanist" or watch the biographical documentary "Speak of the Devil". Hell, just look how big the bibliography to "The Satanic Witch" is. Even aside from all that, anybody with a good knowledge of religions and philosophies, and who doesn't let self-righteousness bias his or her judgment, can see how Satanism was influenced by Rand, Nietzsche, Mark Twain, Machiavelli, etc. If having influnces means you're a "rip-off" (which I think you were secretly implying by putting the word "influence" in quotes), then every religion, philosophy, or musical act for that matter is a rip-off.

3) There is no such thing as "Traditional Satanism". Before the founding of the Church of Satan in 1966, there was no organized religion called "Satanism". Granted you had the occasional crazy devil worshipper, numerous occultists, and the occasional group of aristocrats who liked to indulge in Saturday night "Black Masses" for lewd entertainment. But again, no group that identified as "Satanists", and none had an applicable philosophy. Anybody else who claimed to do work with "Satan" were basing their theology completely off of scare stories from the Catholic Church, and later on bad horror B-movies. They were bored people who took up devilish aesthetics and trappings for the sake of attention or entertainment.

Therefore there is no need for terms like "LaVeyian Satanism" and "Traditional Satanism". We have dibs on the name "Satanism". These other terms do nothing but further confuse the issue, cloud history, and give false credibility to devil worshippers.
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#237872 - 04/21/07 05:19 PM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
G.F.V. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 1951
Loc: NYC
Ayn Rand was a militant Atheist. She despised all religions, and probably disliked Satanism as well. Hell, she probably would have laughed at the idea of practicing Lesser and Greater magic in order to empower the self on a small or large scale. This is not to say that I dislike her writings. In fact, I have read and enjoyed almost all of her novels and essays.

LaVeyan Satanism?.....What is that?

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#237905 - 04/21/07 06:55 PM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Sir_Trojan]
Luigi Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 349
Loc: Europe & South America

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#238047 - 04/22/07 01:24 PM Re: LaVey & Ayn Rand [Re: Virus9]
Sir_Trojan Offline
Banned

Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 10
I'm aware that the whole "reason" or so-called "Philosophy" behind "Theistic Satanism" is quite ridiculous, as in my mind, they don't deserve the right to call themselves "free-thinkers" as all they're doing is following the same herd of sheep.

I don't have any sources. This is just my own curiosity. I'm not accusing LaVey of being anything he wasn't, nor am I implying that Ayn Rand talked about Satanism. However, her views regarding traditional society, are pretty much named "Occult" in today's world. Thus, that's probably the main reason it sparked my interest. In my personal opinion, Theistic Satanism shouldn't exist. It's just a bunch of besmirching bored teenagers, looking for something to get back at mummy and daddy because they were grounded (or something) thus, they look for something rebellious. With the reputation "Satan" carries around itself, it's the perfect rebellion for a teenager looking for something different, yet they still manage to become confused and end up leaving the whole thing. Occasionally they wake up to themselves, and other times, they don't.

No one puts anything into my head. I'm one of those..."If I don't see it, I don't believe it" thus, if I have no proof or logic behind my own theory, I obviously wouldn't go around throwing accusations at something where I need not subject myself, nor do I have any substantial evidence to back myself up. Thus, in the end, I simply contradict everything I say. That is why I asked. I would just prefer to hear it from people who know, instead of getting false information from someone who likes to think they know. But thanks all for responding, and I'll read up on that CoS page after I pick my daughter up.

Regards,
Nathan

P.S I still have more to say, but I will have to wait.

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#238064 - 04/22/07 02:59 PM Your attention please. [Re: Sir_Trojan]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Please reply to the PM I sent to you.

Thank you.

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