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#23884 - 02/02/04 04:06 AM Perfectionism
Max Rose Offline


Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 285
I have found that I am an obsessive perfectionist. I am such a perfectionist that I wasnt able to admit to myself that I was a perfectionist. My girlfriend had to point it out to me, which was when I responded "NO! I am not a perfectionist, if I was, then this song would be perfect! BUT JUST LISTEN TO IT!!!," which was when I realized.

I have found that this actually lessens my enjoyment in life because I have a tendency to over analyze things to the point where they lose their magic. By working overly hard to make things greater so that I can enjoy them more, I take away from my enjoyment of things in the process. I am pretty sure that many of you can relate to this because it seems that one of the pitfalls of satanists is being overly critical sometimes of themselfs and others.

So my question is this, how do you personally strike a balance between striving for perfection and loosening up to enjoy things?

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#23885 - 02/02/04 04:17 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Josephine007 Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 01/31/04
Posts: 620
Loc: Zero Point Field
So my question is this, how do you personally strike a balance between striving for perfection and loosening up to enjoy things?

Satan have mercy! I have been working on that myself.

To be honest, I have found that most of the time one strives to be perfect there is an underlying fear or concern about why something must be perfect. To dimiss it as being 'anal retentive' or 'having a good work ethic' is merely glossing over the issue.

Usually there is a deep dark ugly thing that is causing you to feel it necessary to be 'perfect' either for yourself or others.

To examine that and rip it sreaming and shrieking from your psyche provides great relief and you may suddenly loosen up just a bit. I can PM you the titles of some literature if you think you would find it helpful.
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Josephine Seven
Cherchez La Femme
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#23886 - 02/02/04 04:59 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Kurgan Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2441
Loc: Land of the Midnight Sun
So my question is this, how do you personally strike a balance between striving for perfection and loosening up to enjoy things?

That's kind of a hard question to answer since it's never been something I've had to struggle with. You'll probably receive replies on the usual order of "it's the striving for perfection that makes one great, not the realization of an impossible standard yada yada yada...", but when perfection becomes a compulsion and interferes with your enjoyment of life and acceptance of self then it definitely becomes a psychological issue worthy of examination.

The way I strike that balance is basically the same as my approach to life itself. I am happy but will probably never be content. I enjoy life to the fullest but there will always be something more to achieve on the next horizon. Similarly, I derive satisfaction from performing to the best of my ability but I also know that it's natural to reflect on what you have done and think of ways it could have been done better. Instead of lamenting over your defeat, take what you have learned in victory and use it to propel yourself to even greater glory in the future (yada yada yada...)
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[color:"white"]In Ferro Veritas[/color]

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#23887 - 02/02/04 05:20 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Kurgan]
Kurgan Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2441
Loc: Land of the Midnight Sun
Also, refer to Nemo's remarks concerning "self" in the Satanism and Demonology thread.
_________________________
[color:"white"]In Ferro Veritas[/color]

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#23888 - 02/02/04 05:58 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Ringu Offline


Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 144
Loc: NRW, Germany, Earth
I often cant choose the right balance - i try to work with a problem until it is gone/resolved - whatever. But this often annoys me. I think if you be so much perfectionist that you annoys yourself then its not the right balance.
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every causation has its own special effect

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#23889 - 02/02/04 06:09 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
Perfectionism is subjective. A perfectionist strives to create what is perfection to them. It is a self-imposed rule system. If you're striving for your idea of perfection then you're setting your own rules, deadlines and procedures, but also you're the one responsible for taking the fun out of your life. It's a compulsion and it would be a good idea for you to try and agressively teach yourself to learn when to stop.

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#23890 - 02/02/04 07:12 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
RobertE Offline


Registered: 08/31/03
Posts: 607
Loc: Michigan
One of the reasons I am so lazy is do to my perfectionism. If I start to do something, it will be done under my exactingly high standards, and I won't stop until I know it's been finished.

I have to force myself not to be a perfectionist at my job, dropping a car off a wrecker is like horseshoes and handgrenades... perfect is great, but close enough works just as well.
_________________________
There is no Hank. You are Karl. Make your own list as you see fit. Eat as many wieners as you want, any way you want, even with a large group of consenting individuals if you want! Take pride in your wiener-eating. Make up large, elaborate ceremonies revolving around the kissing of your own ass, having them photographed and videotaped by the media if possible.

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#23891 - 02/02/04 08:34 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Anonymous
Unregistered


About 10 years ago I realized that the supernumerary effort I was putting into my work was causing other aspects of my such as enjoyment of the work to diminish. I found that just recognizing the quandary was a big part of my solution. Of course, I am an individual and what worked for me obviously may not provide the same benefits to you.

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#23892 - 02/02/04 10:27 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
CPayne Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 984
Loc: Fargo, ND.......no, it's not l...
Look at whatever it is you're doing and ask yourself this:

"Does this need to be perfect?"

"Will it ultimately matter if I spend ump-teen hours getting this perfect or is it good enough the way it is?"

"Will the annoyance of getting this perfect kill the satisfaction of finally (you hope) reaching perfection?"

Having had some experience with what you're talking about, you just need to learn to let go and realize that, no, with a lot of things, it won't matter in the long run if it's perfect or not. And once you come to that realization......stop. Just stop trying to perfect whatever it is and leave it be.

That's not to say you go off the other side of the spectrum and become a slacker that only does enough to get by, mind you.

It's all about balance.

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#23893 - 02/02/04 12:06 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
I find that the perfectionist attitude sometimes happens when the real goals and deadlines of my project aren't clear. Basically, I usually won't know what "done" is if I don't define it before hand. Also, I think most perfectionists are afraid of putting a rough-draft of their project together, thinking that it's just a waste of time since it won't be the final project anyway. But getting a tangible result along the way, even if it's supposed to be half-assed (a rough draft of a book or article, a band's 4-track demo, etc.) can be quite rewarding and inspiring.
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#23894 - 02/02/04 12:16 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
You're playing my song. I too am a perfectionist, raised by a perfectionist, who was raised by a perfectionist. On one hand, it means I aim for a higher standard in most things than many people, so I produce good work. The bad news is, I can fret myself to death making sure stuff is perfect.

I occasionally have to remind myself that X activity is just for fun, or that I already do it well enough, or that people aren't scrutinizing me as much as I'm scrutinizing me. I need to remember that my standards are already much higher than most people's, so my idea of crap is lots of people's idea of perfection already.

I actually was able to do some fun colouring a few months ago, the pictures turned out nice, and I got in touch with my easy-going, unperfectionistic inner child. (My college had an anti-stress week, with various stations at which you could colour in colouring books, make bead necklaces, do origami, draw, etc.
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#23895 - 02/02/04 09:19 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think one of the main pitfalls of seeking perfectionism is the failure to recognise the fear of guilt and shame that lie within it's motivation as such.

For me personally, I guess the one thing that stands out in my mind is a motivational seminar I attended when I returned to university as a mature-age student. A speech in which was introduced the idea that you don't have to get high distinctions in every subject to get your degree - all you have to do is pass. That there is no shame in being average. To remember that if you set your goals too high then you are also setting yourself up for devestation and disappointment should you fail to acqire them.

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#23896 - 02/02/04 10:09 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

So my question is this, how do you personally strike a balance between striving for perfection and loosening up to enjoy things?




How do you balance any other transition in your life? You wouldn't go into the bedroom with the same mindset that you entertain at your parent's house and vice versa. It basically comes down to focus of will over your own behavior. You already realize that you have issues with perfection, that is a giant step in the direction of growth. I don't see shame in admitting one's weaknesses, but in self-destructive denial. But now what will you do with it?

It's going to require a conscious effort on your part for a while to recondition yourself and of course the effort you put into this will determine your success. I would suggest that you intentionally mix into your day some activities that don't usually draw out your vice...something that you don't particularly agonize over. Put that in between something else that you do and do this often throughout the week. Gradually, you'll see yourself flowing easier between one state of mind from another more critical one as the current project demands.

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#23897 - 02/02/04 11:41 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Bill_M]
Max Rose Offline


Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 285
Quote:

find that the perfectionist attitude sometimes happens when the real goals and deadlines of my project aren't clear. Basically, I usually won't know what "done" is if I don't define it before hand.




This is an excellent point and something that I had not even considered. Very insightfull.

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#23898 - 02/02/04 11:45 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: RobertE]
Max Rose Offline


Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 285
This is a problem that I have as well. Amassing the kind of energy required to make a project to the caliber that I desire is not an easy task. I am still working on that one, but I have found that in general cardio-vascular excersise is helping with this. If I am in shape I am constantly full of energy and ready to tackle even the most daunting task.

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#23899 - 02/02/04 11:49 PM Re: Perfectionism
Max Rose Offline


Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 285
Quote:

if you set your goals too high then you are also setting yourself up for devestation and disappointment should you fail to acqire them




I find this kind of funny because a motto that I have always lived by after I heard a motivational speech was "Shoot for the moon, even if you miss you will land amoungst the stars,". Those darn motivational speakers... they should just make up their minds already.

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#23900 - 02/02/04 11:54 PM Re: Perfectionism
Max Rose Offline


Registered: 11/17/03
Posts: 285
Quote:

I would suggest that you intentionally mix into your day some activities that don't usually draw out your vice...something that you don't particularly agonize over. Put that in between something else that you do and do this often throughout the week.




This is an excellent suggestion. I will most certainly keep this in mind.

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#23901 - 02/02/04 11:55 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Srpntvsn Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1737
Loc: CA
Then again, there's always Murphy's Law...

Sometimes, learning to relax is quite a task within itself!
_________________________
"Everything has been figured out, except how to live."

"Fascism is not defined by the number of its victims, but by the way it kills them."

"I hate victims who respect their executioners."

"If you are lonely when you're alone, you are in bad company."

- Sarte

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#23902 - 02/03/04 01:03 AM Perfectionism (the other side) [Re: Max Rose]
Solomon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 499
Loc: Cincinnati
I know my standards, and I also know they are higher than most. Typically I have found that the general standard is lower than my own; so if I do a job to my standard, then it is "above and beyond" by theirs. After all, if you're going to do something, do it right!

I was running into difficulty with the standards of others. I will not ask of someone that which I cannot and do not do already. Lead by example. Yet my trainees were falling short of the mark, which was frustrating until I thought about how I came to be where I am today. It was not an overnight thing, it was and is years of study, discipline, and a lot of downfalls along the way. I grew more patient over time, and honed my personal skills, and the way I teach them to others if need be.

Relaxation will also be an effect of this. Once you meet your standard, then the job is finished, and you can breathe knowing that it is done right. Then the time is yours to do what you will.

So perfection can be useful if utilized as a tool for defining standard instead of a burden. It's you that's in the details after all.

Regards,
Solomon
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Dodge Swinger 1973, Galaxy 500,

All the way stars' green, gotta go.

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#23903 - 02/03/04 02:28 AM There are no "perfectionists" [Re: Max Rose]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12571
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Perfect what you do enough to get what you want.

Do not confuse what you are with what you do.

There are no "perfectionists"

There are only people who can measure what they do by some standard.

Select your standards carefully.

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#23904 - 02/03/04 11:15 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Mistress Noel Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 727
Loc: Where streams of silver flow a...
You can still have balance and enjoy life when living to your own high personal standards. There is joy not only in accomplishment of attaining your standards, but also in the process of attaining. Pay attention during the process and enjoy it. That is living.

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#23905 - 02/03/04 01:26 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Srpntvsn]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Murphy was an optimist.

That is what I call Discipline's Law.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#23906 - 02/03/04 03:42 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Discipline]
Srpntvsn Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1737
Loc: CA
Most of the original workings were derived from excessive pessimism, and most are their own best antithesis, and vice versa. They have been twisted, revitalized, reworded, retheorized, etc. throughout its' 53 year existence.

At least he laughed it off when all he got was negative outcomes during tests...

I'm not exactly sure what your post is deriving at, please do clarify.

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#23907 - 02/03/04 03:59 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Srpntvsn]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Just being a little humorous. It's just something I like to say to cheer me up when things have gone bad.

Is Discipline's Law the exact opposite of whatever Murphy's Law is at the time? As the original/s already negate themselves either which way.

I like that way of thinking of it. I will imply that to my "Law", Discipline's law.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#23908 - 02/03/04 04:05 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Discipline]
Srpntvsn Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1737
Loc: CA
Gotcha!
_________________________
"Everything has been figured out, except how to live."

"Fascism is not defined by the number of its victims, but by the way it kills them."

"I hate victims who respect their executioners."

"If you are lonely when you're alone, you are in bad company."

- Sarte

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#23909 - 02/03/04 09:44 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Wonka Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/02/02
Posts: 638
Loc: The City of Red Lights
[If it has not been suggested yet...]

Put flaws in some minor daily activities, like putting away CDs or books without organizing them in a particular way or putting together a sandwich in a sloppy way.

When I catch myself working harder than is necessary/productive, I do this as a reminder that "good is good enough" and that "perfection" is just a void that can't be filled.

If your goal is to exceed others, then do just enough to accomplish that. Knowing when to stop is important, else you'll be working on a brilliant program for three years without anything to show for it like an old acquaintance of mine.
_________________________
Believe Nothing. Test Everything.

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#23910 - 02/04/04 07:08 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:

Quote:

if you set your goals too high then you are also setting yourself up for devestation and disappointment should you fail to acqire them




I find this kind of funny because a motto that I have always lived by after I heard a motivational speech was "Shoot for the moon, even if you miss you will land amoungst the stars,". Those darn motivational speakers... they should just make up their minds already.




Not meaning to argue technicalities here but .. the stars are actually further away from us than the moon

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#23911 - 02/04/04 07:36 AM Re: Perfectionism
RobertE Offline


Registered: 08/31/03
Posts: 607
Loc: Michigan
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

if you set your goals too high then you are also setting yourself up for devestation and disappointment should you fail to acqire them




I find this kind of funny because a motto that I have always lived by after I heard a motivational speech was "Shoot for the moon, even if you miss you will land amoungst the stars,". Those darn motivational speakers... they should just make up their minds already.




Not meaning to argue technicalities here but .. the stars are actually further away from us than the moon




And aren't we already "amongst the stars", since we're on a planet revolving around one?
_________________________
There is no Hank. You are Karl. Make your own list as you see fit. Eat as many wieners as you want, any way you want, even with a large group of consenting individuals if you want! Take pride in your wiener-eating. Make up large, elaborate ceremonies revolving around the kissing of your own ass, having them photographed and videotaped by the media if possible.

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#23912 - 02/04/04 03:53 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: RobertE]
Wonka Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/02/02
Posts: 638
Loc: The City of Red Lights
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

if you set your goals too high then you are also setting yourself up for devestation and disappointment should you fail to acqire them




I find this kind of funny because a motto that I have always lived by after I heard a motivational speech was "Shoot for the moon, even if you miss you will land amoungst the stars,". Those darn motivational speakers... they should just make up their minds already.




Not meaning to argue technicalities here but .. the stars are actually further away from us than the moon




And aren't we already "amongst the stars", since we're on a planet revolving around one?




The sun is still further away.

(I'm enjoying these quotes.)
_________________________
Believe Nothing. Test Everything.

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#23913 - 02/04/04 07:13 PM Wabi Sabi [Re: Max Rose]
Scratch Offline


Registered: 09/30/03
Posts: 207
Loc: Austin, TX
Begin to look at beauty in imperfection, in the slight oddities, and incompletion. Don't see imperfection as a flaw but rather find beauty in that which is unique. You will appreciate your art more and find more enjoyment in it.

I'm rather into writing poetry and I know that it gets awfully frustriating to look for that one word or phrase that will describe your thought PERFECTLY. Seeing your art develop is a lot like watching children grow up, I suppose; they never turn out quite as you're predicted, but you always seem proud either way, especially when they succeed.

Good luck with the songwriting.
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#23914 - 02/04/04 08:07 PM Re: There are no "perfectionists" [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Perfect what you do enough to get what you want.
Do not confuse what you are with what you do.
There are no "perfectionists"
There are only people who can measure what they do by some standard.
Select your standards carefully.

Can we take that one step further?

What we DO is never to be confused with what we ARE?

In that case, I would say there ARE no Satanists.

There are only people who act certain ways.

There are people who have Satanic standards and (try to) live up to them.

Some succeed.

They ACT Satanic.

There ARE no Satanists.

Perfectionism is a man-made word. It was come up with AFTER someone had noticed certain behaviour in people.

Satanism is a man-made word. It was come up with AFTER someone (and we all know to whom I am referring to, here ) had noticed certain behaviour in people.

Why can there be Satanists? Why can there not be perfectionists?


Just curious


Respectfully, Dymfna.

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#23915 - 02/05/04 03:05 AM Re: "Can we take that one step further?"
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12571
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Oh, very well.

Then YOU are not a Satanist.

More seriously, these are all just words we are using here, correct?

When individuals identify with a label it can help or hinder them.

Labeling yourself a "perfectionist" doesn't help you in becoming more flexible in your choices. It lends itself to excuses.

"It's not my fault. It's my nature."

On the other hand some labels can offer the individual benefits. Calling yourself a Satanist can have profound effects on your inner dialogue and choices.

Words have power to influence thought and behavior and perhaps even more.

So technically I would agree with you in the sense that words are tools and not people.

Reification is the shorthand we use to communicate heirarchies of meaning internally and externally.

Words.

Use them.

Don't be used BY them.

Just my opinion.

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#23916 - 02/05/04 05:39 AM Re: There are no "perfectionists"
Ringu Offline


Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 144
Loc: NRW, Germany, Earth
Satanism is well defined and perfectionism cannot be defined i guess thats the little difference - if you speak from perfectionism it only depends on you, if you speak from satanism you can share this with others.
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every causation has its own special effect

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#23917 - 02/05/04 02:56 PM a one-legged-man and a supermodel [Re: Nemo]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh, very well.

Then YOU are not a Satanist.

Although that comment doesn't make much sense..... as you wish, Magister


Words.
Use them.
Don't be used BY them.

We cannot be used by words. We are "used" by our inner thoughts. Because it is our thoughts that make us think and feel the way we do.

If the man with one leg thinks he can run really fast, then it is that THOUGHT that makes him feel strong.

If the supermodel thinks she looks ugly, then it is that THOUGHT that makes her feel insecure about herself.

The one-legged-man and the supermodel are not controlled or "used" by the labels handicap or supermodel. They are controlled by their thoughts.

Labelling yourself a perfectionist does not hinder you from being happy about your own work. It is the thought that your work is not good enough that hinders you from being happy about your work.


It is not the fact that I call myself a Satanist that makes me feel proud of myself.

It is the thought that all that I achieved on my own thusfar is worthy of my pride that makes me feel proud of myself.


Labels just are. They do not control.


WE do.


Just my opinion.


Respectfully,
Dymfna.

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#23918 - 02/05/04 04:55 PM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel
Ringu Offline


Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 144
Loc: NRW, Germany, Earth
Quote:

The one-legged-man and the supermodel are not controlled or "used" by the labels handicap or supermodel. They are controlled by their thoughts.




oh hah - do you let yourself be controlled by your thoughts or do you control your own thoughts?

Quote:

We are "used" by our inner thoughts. Because it is our thoughts that make us think and feel the way we do.




So you associate with "inner thoughts" self suggestion? - in that way i whould agree because everyone performs self suggestion.

Quote:

We cannot be used by words.




Well i guess words are just the translation from our thoughts we try to descripe them with words.
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every causation has its own special effect

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#23919 - 02/05/04 06:37 PM keyword
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
If the man with one leg thinks he can run really fast, then it is that THOUGHT that makes him feel strong.

If the supermodel thinks she looks ugly,

Keyword: IF.

Ahh, a sense of liberation. Just because reality is uncertain, does not mean that we have to be.
_________________________
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#23920 - 02/05/04 06:51 PM Re: "Can we take that one step further?" [Re: Nemo]
Flavius Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 2777
Loc: BridgePort
"Reification is the shorthand we use to communicate heirarchies of meaning internally and externally."

Habit makes the world go 'round...
_________________________
-Flavius.
Resident Psychic.

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#23921 - 02/05/04 11:29 PM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel [Re: Ringu]
Anonymous
Unregistered


oh hah - do you let yourself be controlled by your thoughts or do you control your own thoughts?

We ARE controlled by our thoughts. But as soon as we recognize them, it is THEN that we can make the choice to either be controlled by them (victim role) or actively chance them into more desirable or productive thoughts, so we control THEM.

It is a choice.

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#23922 - 02/06/04 12:18 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Perfection can never be achieved, TheGreenGroove, and I believe that some of us ( including me ), in defiance of our own incapabilities, strive to achieve what cannot exist. Recognition of your own fualts must come first, so that they may not hinder your judgement of others. That's my opinion.

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#23923 - 02/06/04 04:12 AM Yes.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12571
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I agree.

And there are "loaded" thoughts (such as labels) which can trigger untold numbers of associated meanings.

This is why it is possible to use words to cause blisters to form on skin in hypnosis for example.

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#23924 - 02/06/04 09:54 AM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
Never heard it put quite that way, but I like it.

Self-control, especially one's thoughts, is paramount .
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#23925 - 02/06/04 10:35 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Max Rose]
Foxy_Ramirez Offline


Registered: 01/16/04
Posts: 207
Loc: Lawrence, KS
I pretty much always try to do everything perfect. Although, I don't look as it being so bad. I think my perfection, especially in school, helps point me out as something better than the rest of the herd. I thoroughly enjoy my ego through this. Usually hard work rewards with a large result. As far as the magic goes, I think the only time perfectionism might take from the magic is in the middle of a ritual. I try not to be an expert and perfectionist in anything dealing with magic, because I already know that because I am stuck in the habit of being perfect and good at things, that my ritual will similarily reflect that, minus the worry hidden within.
_________________________
"There is a beast in man that should be exercised, not exorcised." ~ Anton Szandor LaVey

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#23926 - 02/06/04 02:25 PM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel
Ringu Offline


Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 144
Loc: NRW, Germany, Earth
Well sorry i just can agree about 50% - if you mean that you cannot choose which thoughts step into your mind then you are absolutly correct but in my way i still decide which thought i realize in this material-world and which not, that is even my _own_ opinion. Im not controlled by my thoughts - my thoughts will just give me different ways and i choose.
_________________________
every causation has its own special effect

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#23927 - 02/06/04 02:35 PM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel [Re: Ringu]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well sorry i just can agree about 50% -

Oh please, don't be sorry.

It don't really care, actually

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#23928 - 02/06/04 03:14 PM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Quote:

We ARE controlled by our thoughts. But as soon as we recognize them, it is THEN that we can make the choice to either be controlled by them (victim role) or actively chance them into more desirable or productive thoughts, so we control THEM. It is a choice.




In other words, whether you are a victim or in control of your life, including your thoughts, depends on your level of awareness, reflection and consciousness.
_________________________
~ Suum cuique. ~

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#23929 - 02/06/04 04:26 PM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In other words, whether you are a victim or in control of your life, including your thoughts, depends on your level of awareness, reflection and consciousness.

No.

In other words, wether you are a victim or in control of your Life (and thoughts) depends on your CHOICES.

It is not about awareness or reflection alone. You can be completely aware of your flaws/unproductive thoughts, yet choose not to take control of it and stay in your passive role of "victim".


I made a simple point. Why are you trying so hard to make it more intelligent or complicated than it is? I thought my point was quite clear.

Like I said before, it is all about CHOICES.

We have a choice.

ALWAYS.

Simple.

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#23930 - 02/06/04 06:14 PM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel [Re: Ringu]
CPayne Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 984
Loc: Fargo, ND.......no, it's not l...
if you mean that you cannot choose which thoughts step into your mind then you are absolutly correct

*cough* Maybe you can't......

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: Control your mind or let it control you.

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#23931 - 02/06/04 06:21 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Wile_E_Quixote]
Redhead Offline


Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 203
Loc: Europe
Quote:

A perfectionist strives to create what is perfection to them. It is a self-imposed rule system.




I believe you're wrong. It is a pattern of behavior imposed by others in the forming phases of one's life (see Troyzr's line

Quote:

I am perfectionist raised by perfectionist...




- that's why people at some moment actually discover that they function in this way - such as GreenGrove described here.


Quote:

It's a compulsion and it would be a good idea for you to try and agressively teach yourself to learn when to stop




While I absolutely agree with your idea, I think that the approach ( agressively teach yourself ) is counterproductive. The main problem most real perfectionist have is inability to relax, take it easy, take it as not such a serious issue.

Basically, they are too hard on themselves - there is too much agressively imposed attitude (regardless that it aims them to right direction and good results at work/school) in them already. It needs to be balanced with the generous amount of relaxed, "so-what-if" attitude.
_________________________
Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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#23932 - 02/06/04 06:40 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: TrojZyr]
Redhead Offline


Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 203
Loc: Europe
Quote:

I too am a perfectionist, raised by a perfectionist, who was raised by a perfectionist.




Don't let that stop you from changing! Some great Satanist I know were raised by Christain who was raised by a Christian...nothing feels as good as breaking the vicious circle


Unfortunately, the society actually supports perfectionism - after all, it does results in excellence, and if you drained yourself completely in the process, it is your loss alone. I have recently been to a public lecture by a very intelligent psychiatrist, who said he's horrified to hear people saying that they are perfectionists with sense of pride - happily admitting that the result (and the accompanying praises) are positioned above their personal wishes, moods and so on.

The fact that proves this attitude is everpresent in so many today is the antistress program that you mentioned here. Striving for perfection, even if it means sleepless nights to get that formulation in paper correct (though the professor will forget it the moment s/he reads it among dozens of others, and most likely will you in time), to name but one behavioral pattern that disregards one's primal need for sleep - results in high stress, that will in some time result in slow development of psychosomatic symptoms.

After all, anti-stress program on institution where most people are in their early twenties, are there cause they have chosen to, and should have plently of time to have good time and fun too - wouldn't be necessary were there not putting themselves under much more pressure then the administration part does.
_________________________
Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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#23933 - 02/06/04 06:51 PM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel
Anonymous
Unregistered


I wonder who would win that fight?

Hail Satan!

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#23934 - 02/06/04 06:54 PM Re: There are no "perfectionists", there's only me [Re: Nemo]
Redhead Offline


Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 203
Loc: Europe
Quote:

Do not confuse what you are with what you do.









Though your argumentation of this line goes in a different direction later on, I think this is a statement of utmost importance for perfectionists.

You'll be as smart/successful etc. if you don't give your best all the time. After all, to err is human - and it is exact those small imperfections that I find so charming and that make those real personal traits.

Dare to throw away the mask of perfection. It is, apart from hiding things you fear to show, keeping some wondeful spontanious things hidden as well.
_________________________
Hail Satan! If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative. - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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#23935 - 02/06/04 07:39 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Foxy_Ramirez]
Kurgan Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2441
Loc: Land of the Midnight Sun
I think the only time perfectionism might take from the magic is in the middle of a ritual.

In TSB Anton LaVey talked about an old magician he knew who ran out of words during a ritual, and in order to keep his emotional response generating he quickly adlibbed the first emotionally provocative words that came to mind - a few stanzas from a poem by Rudyard Kipling, and was then able to complete an effective working.

If perfection isn't doing the trick then spontaneity will do just as nicely.
_________________________
[color:"white"]In Ferro Veritas[/color]

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#23936 - 02/06/04 07:56 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Kurgan]
Foxy_Ramirez Offline


Registered: 01/16/04
Posts: 207
Loc: Lawrence, KS
I remember reading that somewhere, but I don't exactly remember where. Bleh. I think, as long as you don't try to over-do your ritual, you should be fine. Too much concentration can sometimes lead you to think too much on how your doing your ritual rather than working towards the outcome.
_________________________
"There is a beast in man that should be exercised, not exorcised." ~ Anton Szandor LaVey

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#23937 - 02/06/04 10:37 PM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Kurgan]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
Or as I once heard it put, "Fake it 'til you make it".
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www.vampiretemple.com
Are You One Of Us?

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#23938 - 02/07/04 12:08 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Caesar]
Foxy_Ramirez Offline


Registered: 01/16/04
Posts: 207
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Of course. I've heard that saying one too many times. You know the only reason people say that is because people never do it. XP
_________________________
"There is a beast in man that should be exercised, not exorcised." ~ Anton Szandor LaVey

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#23939 - 02/07/04 12:31 AM Re: Perfectionism [Re: Foxy_Ramirez]
CPayne Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 984
Loc: Fargo, ND.......no, it's not l...
That reminds me of Dr. LaVey's other essay on music. He talked about people who were more concerned with how the music sounded rather than the music itself.

Magic is like a lot of things: it's a means to an end. And, also like a lot of things, you can't get too focused on the means. You'll wind up ignoring the end and defeat the whole purpose.

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#23940 - 02/07/04 06:17 AM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Before you can make a choice, you have to:

- be aware that you have a choice at all
- reflect on your possible alternatives

And then you have to choose consciously in order to not choose according to unconscious patterns of belief.

We are in the same boat, Dymfna. You can always approach the truth from several perspectives.
_________________________
~ Suum cuique. ~

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#23941 - 02/07/04 06:17 AM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
There is no fight.
_________________________
~ Suum cuique. ~

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#23942 - 02/07/04 09:00 AM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Before you can make a choice, you have to:

- be aware that you have a choice at all
- reflect on your possible alternatives


True. What's your point though? I never said this is not true.

In your first reply you said:

In other words, whether you are a victim or in control of your life, including your thoughts, depends on your level of awareness, reflection and consciousness.

I still say that is not the case.

Wether you are a victim or in control of your life, including your thoughts, depends NOT on your level of awareness alone (like I CLEARLYstated in my previous reply) but on what we DO with that, which CHOICES me make.

Being aware is one thing. Choosing to take control is another.

It is all about choices. I think I was being quite clear


And then you have to choose consciously in order to not choose according to unconscious patterns of belief.

Sorry, that sentence made NO sense WHATsoever to me... Must be because I'm a Dutchy

Care to elaborate?

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#23943 - 02/07/04 11:09 AM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel [Re: CPayne]
Ringu Offline


Registered: 02/01/04
Posts: 144
Loc: NRW, Germany, Earth
Well of course you should try this - but you mean you are always with that successful in every situation? - I think in some few situations it is more harder.
_________________________
every causation has its own special effect

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#23944 - 02/07/04 11:11 AM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel
Jack_Bauer Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1524
Loc: Germany
Like to split some hairs today?

I try to make it short.

If you don't choose consciously, that means in awareness of the present situation and reflect on your possible alternatives before making a choice, there won't be any real choice.

Acting unconsciously according to patterns of similar situations in the past is not making a choice, but following a programme or patterns of beliefs. These "choices" are illusions.

But please note, that I did not say you were wrong.

I wanted to make an additional statement about conscious choices. Nothing else.

Why do you defend yourself so vehemently without being attacked?
_________________________
~ Suum cuique. ~

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#23945 - 02/07/04 11:31 AM Re: a one-legged-man and a supermodel [Re: Jack_Bauer]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you don't choose consciously, that means in awareness of the present situation and reflect on your possible alternatives before making a choice, there won't be any real choice.

Acting unconsciously according to patterns of similar situations in the past is not making a choice, but following a programme or patterns of beliefs. These "choices" are illusions.

Ok, lots of nice expensive words (although half of it makes little sense) but it has little to do with the original discussion.

I made a statement to Nemo. It was quite clear. Then you jump in, and make another statement.
I simply say that I do not agree.
You then give me some complicated words and sentences (that dont make much sense, but that could be a language barriere) that undoubtedly make sense to YOU, but obviously not to me. So I stated again, that I do not agree and WHY.

I am not defending myself.

I simply stick to my point.

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#23946 - 02/07/04 03:26 PM Re: Wabi Sabi [Re: Scratch]
pippin Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 513
Loc: Sweden
"Begin to look at beauty in imperfection, in the slight oddities, and incompletion. Don't see imperfection as a flaw but rather find beauty in that which is unique."

I totally agree. Beauty can hide in perfection, as well as within imperfection. After all, where is life in perfection? Perfection is dead and complete, with nothing left to add. Imperfection on the other hand is open for change and modification, leaving something for imagination to be discovered.
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Enjoy the silence...

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