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#240095 - 05/02/07 03:50 PM Re: A few thoughts to consider. [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Not thinking about it almost daily is a dangerous sport.

Think deep...think long...think till you think you thought to thinking-much!
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I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240120 - 05/02/07 05:03 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Earth sucks off a new star at the round-about age of 5 billion years. Now, we can see "other stars" in the most distant of galaxies (oldest being about 12.7 billion years old). Now...lets think, if life is prolly really normal for the universe, there is more stars older then ours then there are flies on this planet....


Sorry, just a quick nitpick before moving on -- many of the stars older than the Sun are metal-poor Population II and III bodies. The implication is that there was a lot less non-hydrogen material available during planetary formation, thus reducing their likelihood as abodes of life. (Of course, there's still no shortage of metal-rich Population I stars that are older than the Sun. This just cuts down your numbers a bit.)

 Quote:
In fact, in another 100 years the human race will be much smarter and much more advanced (sell Bell's law and the history of our race). This means, if one race is 100 years older then ours, and much the same as we are, then they are alot more intelligent.


The sticking point here is that "much the same as we are" bit. We could easily imagine a species that takes several thousand years to say "hello". But even if they're Exactly Like Us, then chaos and accidents of history would play far more of a role in their technological level than an extra century or two of time.

But we can imagine anything we like. Going by what we observe, all we can say with certainty is that there doesn't seem to be a Type III civilization (to use Kardashev's term) anywhere nearby. Now, even at a very modest level of growth, a starfaring civilization could easily cover an entire galaxy in just a few million years. And as you point out, there's been ample time for that to happen. But it certainly looks like it hasn't.

This is the good ol' Fermi Paradox, and there are only a few ways to resolve it. These boil down to:

1. They aren't out there. We're the only, or at least the first, technological species in the galaxy.

2. Civilization is inherently unstable and self-destructive -- sentient species always destroy themselves before making a mark on their galaxy. They could be growing and dying all the time and it wouldn't matter on the galactic scale, since not one ever survives.

3. There are plenty of stable civilizations out there, but not a single one of them is expansionist.

4. They're here. We just haven't noticed them.

All of these seem preposterously unlikely. Yet one of them must be true.

-Chess

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#240164 - 05/02/07 07:35 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Chess]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
First off, show me a place you think life can not establish itself, and I will say "life as you know it" can't establish there.

But...You leave out many other factors in you 1-4 list of "why we 'no no' on the E.T yet"

You forgot

5. We are are so small to them that communicating with us would be like humans speaking to insect; Human being 'more complex' but not backward compatible. Giving little chance for the gap between levels of understanding too ever truly meet.

6. Seeing any product of this race's technology or existence would not be anything as slow and "low tech" as what we recogize as "signs of technology" today. We would be the foolish chimps saying

"Nope there is no one online in the universe, cus I didn't hear no 56k modem dial up"

The high speed connection one would need to overcome the limitations of time, space and all the physics within , may not bring SETI to get a boner- but be overlooked or not even seen. We are looking for electromagnetic signs these days, but much growing concern keeps popping up at science tables and debates on this subject; has advanced civilizations escaped the EM spectrum with its technology?

7. A bad thing is out there. A horrible monster...breeding all over the universe in many ways. Those who have learned they "can" send word had either learned what I already know "Life kills weaker life" and died...or were smart enough to lay low.

8. "Come and go races" do just that, but what wealth have they left behind? Surly if we can one day make fake life-bots so real that no man goes unfooled, then could not some of these advanced races leave behind other races? Created races? Races that need not seek outside communication for it was created to remain meek so its creators could control it fully?
Nanotechonolgy itself offers amazing chances to escape the end of the universe, nevermind the end of a planet or solar-sytem's death. If so...what did these races look like? Full beings hard to ship? Or tiny coded balls fully programed to complicate spilt and become fully working robots over spans of time?

9. Most of space has still "not been put to the eye". The universe is huge, and we still have not put our tools to much of the sky...nevermind that what we can not see.

10. You are a robot...and you will not see your coder. The coder will not see you, unless for one reason or another, or unless you excel as a robot. Then you will be downloaded in a manner science can not see yet, and used for whatever it is these "humans" do to us robotic insects when they actually bring us to the lab we can't understand.

But whatever the case...

To assume everything you read is true, will be a fast way to kill you. To think "life", the mighty cell that can grow in a hostile void, can not survive past our level- Just seems like a piggy I don't want money in. Much of science agrees there.


There is alot more...but Its all basic. I mean...really.
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240181 - 05/02/07 08:47 PM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12536
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
11. Just looking at what is already a straight-line prediction based on current technology, it is clear that aging and the limiting qualities of the human mind will be both historical curiosities soon enough.

The resulting transhuman will be as alien to the current human model as any alien species would be to humankind right now.

Soon enough we will become our own aliens.

And what will stop the tranhuman diaspora from spreading out (if this is the first time)?

Nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

Thus the chances it has not already happened are practically zero.

The evidence?

It could be all around you.

The proof?

That is denied. ;\)

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#240205 - 05/02/07 11:01 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Evil_Eve]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Carl Sagan is good introduction material. Once a person actually starts doing their own thought experiments and testing the need for him and the mainstream washes away.

Carl Sagan would have called me a fool for most of the ideas I fiddle with. I am sure Richard Smalley, James Randi (who has no experience in science), and Tim Thompson would as well.

But I call them stubborn.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#240207 - 05/02/07 11:10 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Discipline]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
When Carl passed I cried...there are few in the world of the famous that when falling to death, have dropped me to a puddle maker.

CARL!!!! I love you you ugly man with a pretty brain!

Hail Carl Sagan!
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240214 - 05/03/07 12:21 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
To be honest I am not that fond of him.

I can only say that he introduced me to astronomy, but I have gotten to the point where I don't follow his set ideas.



Edited by Discipline (05/03/07 12:27 AM)
Edit Reason: Improper tense and bad grammar.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#240215 - 05/03/07 12:22 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Discipline]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
I can respect that...fair and fine.

And still respect you.
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240216 - 05/03/07 12:26 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Thanks. \:D
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#240217 - 05/03/07 12:27 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
latenighter Offline


Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 43
Here is my thought as to why we have not been contacted by any advanced civilization. They have been picking up all our t.v signals, and simply don't realize there is any intelligent life here!

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#240219 - 05/03/07 12:39 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
First off, show me a place you think life can not establish itself, and I will say "life as you know it" can't establish there.


Show me a place where you think there can't possibly be peanut butter, and I will say "peanut butter as you know it". Therefore, you have peanut butter in your ear. QED. ;\)

But still, your numbers 5 through 9 seem to be special cases of my number 4 ("we haven't noticed them"). Respectively, we haven't noticed them because of vast differences in intelligence level; because we don't recognize their technology as such; because they choose not to be noticed; and because we haven't looked everywhere yet.

Option 10, it seems, could be boiled down further into the following statement: "What we percieve bears no resemblance to what is real." It's an idea that has found fruit from Plato to the Wachowski Brothers, but since it can never be disproven, even in principle... well, then it's just as valid an answer to the Fermi Paradox as it is to the mystery of where you left your keys. That is, it's an interesting philosophical tidbit but not very helpful in day-to-day life.

 Quote:
To assume everything you read is true, will be a fast way to kill you. To think "life", the mighty cell that can grow in a hostile void, can not survive past our level- Just seems like a piggy I don't want money in.


I only said that was one possible resolution of the Fermi Paradox. You'll also note that I called it preposterously unlikely... along with all the others. I don't claim to know the actual answer.

-Chess

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#240222 - 05/03/07 01:09 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Chess]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Well I have no problems with the way you walk in this...I enjoy reading you.

But...one thing

"peanut butter" does not shock the shit out of science each year showing up fully able to thrive in places we dubbed "impossible" for peanut butter to live....

You know this and semantical peanut butter is silly....

Kiss me you fool
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240251 - 05/03/07 08:30 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: latenighter]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: latenighter
Here is my thought as to why we have not been contacted by any advanced civilization. They have been picking up all our t.v signals, and simply don't realize there is any intelligent life here!


~Wicked grin from the cat~

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#240258 - 05/03/07 10:15 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I think it is pretty much a certainty that there is "intelligent life" elsewhere in the universe. If my understanding of evolution is even half correct, then the evolution of life is a given, under certain circumstances. I would assume the same is true of "intelligent life". I do wonder what you mean by "intelligent life", however. My cat and snake have intelligence, as do my wife, son and I. Each is different, but intelligence, nonetheless. Are you asking if we believe that there is intelligence, in the way humans are intelligent?
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#240261 - 05/03/07 10:28 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Mr_Atrox Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1814
Loc: Lycopolis
Intelligence:

Noun

(n) intelligence (the ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience)

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=intelligence

You are correct in asking for clarification.
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