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#240754 - 05/05/07 08:58 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: DickSteele]
Babydoll Offline
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Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 855
Loc: Australia
 Quote:
It also doesn't surprise me that man with his ego thinks that he is the intelligent species.


I learnt that the only thing which has actually allowed us to advance is that we started to RECORD (write down) what we learned, so we could pass it on, and later generations built on it.

All of the technological accomplishments of TODAY are dependant upon the 'primitive' accompishments of the past.

Our brains are the same as the first Homosapians, it's just that we have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge at our fingertips that allows us to advance further.

We think we're smart because we 'know' that the earth revolves around the sun, but hey smarty pants if nobody TOLD you, you wouldn't 'KNOW'!!!

As a civilisation we're very advanced compared to the first human civilisations, but as indiviudals we're not any different. It's common for humans to judge themselves on collective accomplishments.
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#240755 - 05/05/07 09:03 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: DickSteele]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Dolphins fight, rape and wage small battles...

So yes, maybe they are just like humans...

BUT!

No thumbs? No space ships! Tough luck flipper! Ha!

But yes...I agree with much you just wrote...screw it, lets all go out to space and find us some aliens....who wants to drive?



Edited by Fagneto (05/05/07 09:06 PM)
Edit Reason: I needed more space.
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#241150 - 05/08/07 03:10 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

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Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Thought about this for a moment, and it seems crystal clear. Aliens would not logically have visited earth, and I can prove it.

It is biological imperative to aggressively colonize any available territory that is viable for colonization. This is true of all known organisms; failure to do so would result in extinction under pressure from other species that do aggressively colonize. Therefore, it is certainly true that no species would achieve advanced technology required for interplanetary travel without being an aggressive colonizer, since dominance of local territory would be required to develop technology in the first place. Hence we should assume that any advanced race would be dominant on their home planet, and therefore an aggressive colonizer. We can't merely argue that they're "enlightened" either, and would not colonize us for whatever reason; they would have the biological imperative to colonize, or they'd have never reached their current stage of development. Likewise, they would probably not have the urge to visit other planets if they did not have such a colonizing urge to begin with.

Europeans did not visit North America, drop off some gunpowder and metalworking technology for the natives, and go home.

So why would they visit earth, and fail to colonize it? If they can get here and fly around here, presumably they can also colonize it; odds are good that earth is safe for them to live on without apparatus, but regardless they should certainly have apparatus at their disposal to make it possible.

Likewise, any species that advanced would have nothing to fear from us, and if the popular accounts are true, visited us while we were still a very unadvanced race. Hence, aliens should have colonized earth at an early juncture, and we wouldn't be here to discuss it, at least not as a dominant species.

Hence, aliens do not visit and have not visited earth.

PS - Claiming they have motives beyond our comprehension just sounds like god-adulation. Faith doesn't fly with scientific inquiry.
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#241162 - 05/08/07 04:31 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
I think the biggest problem with discussing and looking for intelligent life elsewhere is the mistake of projecting our own human characteristics in to these potential life forms. Even in looking for intelligent life on earth we make the mistake of using ourselves as the measuring stick.

We base intelligence on ourselves and what we have accomplished. Somewhere someone said wale language is not used for any other purpose other than "lets fuck" or "where is the food". Then again, how are we measuring this language? We don't even know what the different sounds they make mean.

Some conclude we were not visited simply because we were not conquered. Again we are thinking to human like. And very narrow even for human standards. We are projecting our own characteristics into ET.

Maybe we're a science experiment. Their version of evolution? Maybe we are a farm of some sort. Maybe they were on their way to somewhere else and stopped by quickly because they were curious. Maybe their is a use for us we haven't even thought of.

Maybe we haven't observed life on planets because it doesn't exist the same way it does here. They could exist in a gas like body and communicate with ripples, much the same as sound, but more complex. They may not live on planets but have complex societies living in some nebula elsewhere.

Maybe they communicate with each other with a series of flashes of an ultraviolet biological LED located on some ambiguous lump on what we would perceive as a head. And perhaps they are a fluorine based life form. We can't see how they communicate, so we may see it as telepathy. Maybe they are telepathic, in the sense their brain has a section which gives of radio waves.

Humans can see certain types of radiation. iguanas can see ultraviolets and as a result they cannot see through glass, as glass is not transparent to ultraviolet light. If there was a creature made out of really fine glass, humans wouldn't be able to see it, but iguanas could. Maybe the aliens are transparent to our visible wavelengths of light and they are waving their hands/tentacles at us, but we cannot see them. Maybe they can't see us.

We scan the system of radio waves, we sometimes pick up x-rays, who is to say thats how they send signals? Maybe radiation is their version of body oder? Perhaps they are trying to find intelligent life and are sending out static because they communicate that way.

Maybe its because we are afraid of talking to something that is so different than us that we are willing to ignore intelligent life of all kinds of forms just in the hopes to look for something we can relate to. It is easier to look for something like us and fail looking for it than to look for things that are extremely different than us which we may have a nearly impossible time communicating with them.


Edited by tovasshi (05/08/07 04:38 AM)
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#241231 - 05/08/07 12:48 PM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12536
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
An excellent suggestion!

The only drawback I can see is that these assumptions may very well be no longer true for any truly advanced technology beyond our own current level.

The Singularity Is Near: When Humans Transcend Biology is an example of what modern day human beings could expect along this line in the very near future.

Your suggestion is very worthwhile as it comes from what we can see already and know exists without question.

It never hurts to work with what you already know exists!

However if engineering visionaries like Kurzweil (and Drexler and Moravec) prove in time to be correct, we simply can't rule out what a sufficiently advanced technological intelligence would do or not do.

In such a case we could be colonized right now and be totally unaware of that fact.

Utility Fog is a single example of a slightly advanced technology that would enable one to walk around invisible to others and capable of some rather godlike powers. If we encountered someone wrapped in Utility Fog we would not even know they were there unless they wished it.

If such relatively simple technologies that we currently can project as possible to build can change the rules, then all bets are off. Chess on a board with no edges is an entirely different game, for example.

If you would like to discuss this concept further (based essentially on Clarke's Third Law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.") we could do that downstairs in the Greater Magic forum.

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#241237 - 05/08/07 01:36 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
I assume the tiny micro-sized dot-people on the moon think we never showed up?

I dunno If I think all like would colonize anything it touches. I have no idea what life becomes when it is advanced enough to travel the stars.
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#241238 - 05/08/07 01:39 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: tovasshi]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
I think that you're right about people trying to project their own motives and mindset on alien races. We search the radio wavelength for messages from space. The two problems that immediately come to mind are:
1.) What if they don't breath oxygen. If they breath methane then their entire atmosphere may be different from ours and opaque to the radio waves that our atmosphere is transparent to.
2.) Perhaps radio communication if primitive. How do we know if this is the most efficient form of communication? Perhaps they use quantum entaglement for faster than light communications. Perhaps radio waves never occured to them and all information is transmitted through fiber optics. They may even use micro wormholes to send messages quickly.

Furthermore, human beings equate technology with intelligence. Some scientists believe that the depth of the cortical folds on the frontal lobes are an accurate measure of intelligence. If this is the case dolphins are smarter than humans. Intelligence simply represents problem solving skills and a capacity to learn. A highly intelligent race may have realized the consequences of unbridled technology and intentionally remained "primitive."

I also can't help but wonder how long an alien might live. What if they live 1000 years? 100,000? 1,000,000? Could we comprehend what it means to live and plan on this time scale? Perhaps aliens are invading, but they're taking it rediculously slow. Maybe they live so long that they're simply waiting for us to finish ourselves off. Regardless, the existance or non-existance of aliens makes little difference in my day to day life (aside from the possibility of merchandising one day.) It's just fun to think and speculate about.

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#241271 - 05/08/07 04:10 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
evildork Offline


Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 100
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Your theory for why we haven't been visited is also a theory for why we're being visited. UFO's are supposedly the scout ships, and the invading forces just haven't arrived yet.

And Nemo, I don't see how transcending biology poses much of a problem to the theory. Even if they stopped aging, dying and reproducing, they may not have been able to eliminate the need for resources. And if they did, they may not have been able to eliminate the desire to explore, expand, conquer, control, etc. And if they could, they may not have wanted to.

The only thing I see myself assuming here is that extra-terrestrial life capable of travelling to our planet would've at least at one time required resources of some kind, because I assume that needs are a requirement for the desire to explore, expand, conquer, control, etc. And in the case of a species with the power to eliminate it's desires, I assume the fulfillment of desires is pleasing, making desire... desirable.
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#241294 - 05/08/07 05:55 PM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: evildork]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12536
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
And Nemo, I don't see how transcending biology poses much of a problem to the theory.


If you want to understand how then you might consider reading a bit more deeply into the references I mentioned. They explain it in great detail.

When the rules of the game are different from what you know, it is difficult to predict the moves. ;\)

As I mentioned before I am willing to discuss this topic downstairs in the context of Greater Magic.

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#241296 - 05/08/07 06:01 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Likewise, any species that advanced would have nothing to fear from us, and if the popular accounts are true, visited us while we were still a very unadvanced race. Hence, aliens should have colonized earth at an early juncture, and we wouldn't be here to discuss it, at least not as a dominant species.


Unless the method of colonization isn't so narrow. What if the prevailing attitude is to spread a generalized form of life, and allow it to adapt itself to any niche it can hold, rather than to try and transplant a particular species into alien environments? If that's the case, then perhaps the aliens arrived billions of years ago... and we've been here ever since.

(The classic objection to this, of course, is that sooner or later some deviant species will decide to do things the hard way, and we're right back at the Fermi Paradox where we started.)

 Quote:
PS - Claiming they have motives beyond our comprehension just sounds like god-adulation.


Not necessarily. Hell, my girlfriend has motives beyond my comprehension, but I certainly don't worship... well... okay, except for when she gets out the cuffs and flogger. But that's a special case. You know, when she's being *ahem* a "dominant species."

-Chess


Edited by Chess (05/08/07 06:08 PM)

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#241344 - 05/08/07 10:57 PM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: Nemo]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Then it would be a logical conclusion that such a sufficiently advanced species would not be unique in the universe.

If two such species found each other, which seems probable if they are advanced enough to cross interstellar distances in reasonable time frames and life supporting planets exist in sufficient density distribution throughout the galaxy that any given two species would ever run into each other (postulated by the fact that we are assuming such an interstellar species found us), then the conclusion would be logical enough.

The species that was the more aggressive colonizer would conquer the other and would replace it.

Now, I'll grant you that if you postulate things that we have no clue about, you can come up with just about any result you want, but doing that seems...sticky to me. I could just as well postulate that such an advanced species is able to colonize anything and has therefore colonized every single square inch of the universe, but that would require not one, but a series of essentially invented, unsupported assumptions leading to an absurd conclusion.

Bottom line is this: if we are to go into such wildly speculative realms, then the only thing we can be certain of is that we have no damned idea what we're talking about, and it is more logical to relax and have a beer than to spend a moment in concern for such possibilities.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#241347 - 05/08/07 11:32 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
 Quote:
Likewise, any species that advanced would have nothing to fear from us, and if the popular accounts are true, visited us while we were still a very unadvanced race. Hence, aliens should have colonized earth at an early juncture, and we wouldn't be here to discuss it, at least not as a dominant species.


I would agree, only with the caveat that it is possible that such postulated aliens required an element vital to their life processes, which is not found on Earth. No matter how advanced they would be, they would not be immune to mistakes, and that would be a mistake that resulted in a "failed" colony. Otherwise I find your logic to be iron clad.


Edited by Jack_Lantern (05/08/07 11:33 PM)
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#241371 - 05/09/07 03:00 AM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
I so agree...

Cept for the beer thing...
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I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#241374 - 05/09/07 04:41 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Quote:
So why would they visit earth, and fail to colonize it?


Perhaps their supply of antibiotics came on the tenth cylinder, which got lost in the way...
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#241375 - 05/09/07 04:49 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
Your logic has a very strong biological basis, however even the most advanced and intelligent species can harbour strong ideas and morals that are contrary to the laws of nature. Just like a lot of highly intelligent humans fall for the idealistic nonsense of communism and socialism, there's no reason to think that other intelligent species, despite their technological sophistication, couldn't be equally philosophically flawed.

Of course, the distance between relative levels of intelligence could be a factor too. If I come across an anthill, I'm far more likely to spent some time carefully observing it than I am to conquor or destroy it. The only time I would be likely to indulge in ant-genocide would be if the anthill was in my way. A suitably advanced race would likely have no need to colonise earth. Given the size of the universe I'd say that aliens that managed to get here would most likely either be interested in scientific observation or extermination to make way for an interstellar bypass.

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