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#240008 - 05/02/07 07:28 AM ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence
TheNaturalForce Offline
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Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
As a child I devoured all the books I could on the subject. I watched all the shows. Saw all the movies. I was deeply fascinated with the possibility of intelligent non-human creatures traversing the stars with their superior technologies, philosophies and societies. After all, Neanderthals were an intelligent species separate from the human race, so why does it have to stop here on planet Earth? Even though I had never been shown evidence that this fantastic dreamy idea was true, the stories entertained some primal part of my imagination and kept my mind stimulated. Eventually I laid the subject to rest and moved on to other interests. Recently I began to reflect on this idea again. What are your thoughts on intelligent extraterrestrial life?
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#240009 - 05/02/07 07:35 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Exanimus Offline


Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 21
Loc: NC
I believe extraterestrial life does exits, but so far I have seen no proof of aliens visiting earth.

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#240011 - 05/02/07 07:54 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Fagneto Offline
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Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Most proper science states it unlikely that aliens have visited earth, due to the level of energy needed to cross the stars, and the youth of our galaxy (and the laws of limited speed of matter). A race advanced enough to do such would be condered a stage-3 race of life (one able to harness 100% of a star's energy or traverse distance between stars).

But...most proper science does assume life is out there. Even if only a fraction of 1% of all planets had life, there would still be billions of planets in our galaxy alone that would harbor "life".

Well thats what the common "big heads" say anyway...

Me? I say HAVE visited... Mostly from Mexico.

I trust Arthur C Clarke...I guess I love him.


Edited by Fagneto (05/02/07 07:59 AM)
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#240014 - 05/02/07 08:14 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Evil_Eve Offline
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If you had asked this question oh, 6 or more months ago I would have said the whole idea was poppycock since Science has not 'proved' that LGM exist.

I used to be a HUGE and I do mean HUGE Carl Sagan fan. I shared most of his thoughts on this particular subject. I too would look in the sky and say "bummer".

Now? Let's just say that life is a funny thing and I do not hold the same ideas true that I used to on the subject.

I simply... 'don't know'. How's that? ;\)
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#240015 - 05/02/07 08:21 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Evil_Eve]
Thaumaturge Offline

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Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 1802
Loc: Delaware
Well, there HAS to be intelligent life somewhere, cause the scanner is blank here on earth

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#240018 - 05/02/07 08:54 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Thaumaturge]
sub50hz Offline


Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Chicago
I sure hope there is a race (or races) of beings somewhere in the universe that is smarter than the rest of the idiots on this planet.
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#240020 - 05/02/07 09:07 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Evil_Eve]
Fagneto Offline
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Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
LGM?

Lurking God-like Nyarlathotep?

No wait...thats LGN.

Ok...screw it. I am done here.
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I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240032 - 05/02/07 09:54 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Amelia Offline


Registered: 04/18/07
Posts: 113
Loc: USA
Though I doubt any 'aliens' have visited us from outerspace, I feel it is likely there are lifeforms out there somewhere far far away from us.
Like the creation of life is so hard! Hah! \:\)
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#240044 - 05/02/07 11:16 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
JysusCryst Offline


Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 29
Loc: Oklahoma
I do believe that there is life on other planets, but as for a more intelligent life-form, I doubt it. Though I am positive that there are bacterial, plant and animalistic life of other planets.
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#240055 - 05/02/07 11:59 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: JysusCryst]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Jesus...

Why would you think "Earth" that was created by the nature of nature, and science would be the planet with the highest form of "smarty"? Huh?

Think about this...

There are more planets in the universe then there are sands on every beach on earth...Just visit ONE beach, and do some deep thinking. After that, visit EVERY beach on the earth, come back, and then change what you said...If you do not, ooooooh Ima scold you somthing nifty!

Here...sit down and lend me your eyes. Class time.

The universe is about 13 or 14 billion years old. We know this through astronomers who analyze light waves to tell how long it takes for light (from objects) that reach reach Earth. This is a damn fine way to tell age of things and you can waste time questioning the validity of this science...but not until you are a real "astronomer". It's sorta "water tight" unless you wanna think "yeh!? well how do you know God didn't mess with the numbers?"

Earth sucks off a new star at the round-about age of 5 billion years. Now, we can see "other stars" in the most distant of galaxies (oldest being about 12.7 billion years old). Now...lets think, if life is prolly really normal for the universe, there is more stars older then ours then there are flies on this planet....making it very likely that there just MAY be some smart-ass shit out there.

Seeing as our galaxy is said to be about 10-billion years old, we are not the youngest punk on the block, but we do have many older brothers. I wouldn't place no money on what you say...In fact, in another 100 years the human race will be much smarter and much more advanced (sell Bell's law and the history of our race). This means, if one race is 100 years older then ours, and much the same as we are, then they are alot more intelligent.

Now I am running on three hours sleep in the past 48 hours, so forgive me if I wasn't clear...But I think I was.

PS: There are no unicorns.
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I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240071 - 05/02/07 01:21 PM A few thoughts to consider. [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Nemo Offline
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Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
You might consider a few items.

If such intelligences were present you might not recognize them as such.

If they related to human beings with any interest at all they might prefer to not be so identified for their own reasons.

Again, as Clarke's Third Law suggests ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.") the presence of such intelligences would likely be perceived by human beings as paranormal events or the activities of gods.

Setting aside the usual common assumptions regarding human history and mythology, it is interesting that the oldest stories about human origins include gods who came to this world and created human beings for their own purposes.

If these stories are basically true then the continued presence of those intelligences would still remain "invisible" to human beings who have already labeled what they see as "explained".

Thus the continued experiences of members of different religions who "hallucinate" their gods might not always be just hallucinating.

One of Dr. LaVey's friends was Jacques Vallee, the noted French computer scientist and astronomer. Today he is a well recognized authority on UFOs. You might wish to read what he wrote with regard to these issues.

If such intelligences exist and were in the same room with you as you read these words you might not know it as such.

Food for thought.
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DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD
The Achievement of Infinite Self-Esteem
Nemo on Satanism - an mp3 audio program

THE FIRE FROM WITHIN

Nemo On Satanism: Volume One
Satanic Sources - Print

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#240076 - 05/02/07 01:34 PM Re: A few thoughts to consider. [Re: Nemo]
Thaumaturge Offline

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Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 1802
Loc: Delaware
Well said magister,

I agree. I have have been able to visit with a lot of different cultures. I suggest everyone do a little research on the Dogon tribe. The Dogon are an ethnic group located mainly in the administrative districts of Bandiagara and Douentza in Mali, West Africa.

The precise origin of the Dogon is undetermined. Their civilization emerged, in much the same manner as ancient Sumer, both sharing tales of their creation by gods who came from the sky in space ships. They also believe these Gods will return.

many believe that the Dogon are part of Ancient Egyptian Ancestry.
Allegedly, when the Dogon left Egypt, they brought with them sacred knowledge in the form of oral traditions, perhaps handed down by the ancient priests of Egypt.

The Dogon creational tale is laced with metaphors that are similar to other legends of creation throughout the world. "One need only compare them and understand their metaphoric content, to understand the nature of our reality, past, present, and future."

According to Dogon mythology, Nommo was the first living being created by Amma, the sky god and creator of the universe.

He soon multiplied to become six pairs of twins. [This is a metaphor for one source/soul splitting into two - yin /yang, when it enters into the electromagnetic energies of third dimension.

One twin rebelled against the order established by Amma, thereby destabilizing the universe.

In order to purify the cosmos and restore its order, Amma sacrificed another of the Nommo, whose body was cut up and scattered throughout the universe. This distribution of the parts of the Nommo's body is seen as the source for the proliferation of Binu shrines throughout the Dogon region. (This is similar to the story of Isis -- Osiris -- and Horus.)


"The Dogon priests said that Sirius had a companion star that was invisible to the human eye. They also stated that the star moved in a 50-year elliptical orbit around Sirius, that it was small and incredibly heavy, and that it rotated on its axis.

Initially the anthropologists wrote it off publishing the information in an obscure anthropological journal, because they didn't appreciate the astronomical importance of the information.

What they didn't know was that since 1844, astronomers had suspected that Sirius A had a companion star. This was in part determined when it was observed that the path of the star wobbled. In 1862 Alvan Clark discovered the second star making Sirius a binary star system (two stars).

In the 1920's it was determined that Sirius B, the companion of Sirius, was a white dwarf star. White dwarfs are small, dense stars that burn dimly. The pull of its gravity causes Sirius' wavy movement. Sirius B is smaller than planet Earth.

The Dogon name for Sirius B is Po Tolo. It means star - tolo and smallest seed - po. Seed refers to creation. In this case, perhaps human creation.

By this name they describe the star's smallness. It is, they say, the smallest thing there is.

They also claim that it is 'the heaviest star' and is white in color.

The Dogon thus attribute to Sirius B its three principal properties as a white dwarf: small, heavy, white.

Nommo Description

The Dogon elder, Ogotemelli, describes Nommo as having the upper part as a man and the lower portion as snake; or as having a ram's head with serpent body. [Serpent=DNA]

Author Robert Temple describes the Nommo as amphibious beings sent to Earth from the Sirius star system for the benefit of humankind. They look like Merfolk; Mermaids and Mermen. [Metaphor: amphibious - referring to the flow of the collective unconscious - creational source].
Astronomy

The Dogon are famous for their astronomical knowledge taught through oral tradition, dating back thousands of years, referencing the star system, Sirius. Sirius is the dog star. It is linked with the Egyptian goddess Isis. The astronomical information known by the Dogon since that time, was not discovered and verified until the 19th and 20th centuries, making one wonder how the Dogon came by this knowledge. Their oral traditions say it was given to them by the Nommo. The source of their information may date back to the time of the ancient Egyptian priests. "


check them out. there is a lot of information on these great people online.

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#240079 - 05/02/07 01:57 PM Re: A few thoughts to consider. [Re: Nemo]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Well well Magister sir. You are touching on a very important area of my interests.

yes...I know the third law very well and have very deep thoughts on the matter.

One being "there is no book without a author, no sentence without a writer, no code without a programer"

it is a known fact we are all encoded creatures. The law you throw on the dinner table here is the law that made me first assume we are simple machines. Life, the "cell" is a machine. Even RNA was coded...are we to assume there is no coder?

Now this thought has poped into heads of many "thinkers" but always seems to bring people to some shallow thoughts of "god is real", but Art's third law allows me to consider a few things.

Men often assume us divine in origin (or magical). Well then...its safe to say we may simply be technology. Imagin the worth of a small cell that can reproduce and grow into shapes and forms that will adapt to all parts of a planet...a nice machine indeed. Cold lands? Fine...It will become seals. Hot lands? Fine...camels. So forth, so on.

I can trust that we are robots of a technology highly advanced way faster then I can trust in a real God...truly if there is a "God" it simply is a coder of the machine we may be. Fact remains, DNA is called a Code for more then just "cute slang"...it runs on Ones and Zeros...it communicates and speaks through code. Somthing wrote it...fact point.

Now...lets just say I "assume" you read "The Holographic Universe", and though I have many problems with much of its text...there is some valid idealism inside that book.

I know we are not alone my respected and wise mentor...but I still, for many reasons of science, can not allow a ship to bring Aliens here in my mind...not yet. But I used to think that was the answer.

Anyway....why would you build a life-form (robot) with lucid ability? Well...back to the Holographic Universe...to record, and return information (hey...you know you also read the Rama series...please?)

Ok...Nemo sir? Is it ok if I truly do love you now? We can break up when you say so...but please...I really really am charmed by you and your magic.

Um...again...very tired....very wired.

ps: You scare me.


Edited by Fagneto (05/02/07 02:01 PM)
Edit Reason: Cus I am stupid! OK!!!?
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240080 - 05/02/07 01:58 PM Re: A few thoughts to consider. [Re: Nemo]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: Denmark
I agree.

It's not easy to think outside the ''box'', even though the ''box'' is just an illusion most of the time.

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#240094 - 05/02/07 03:48 PM Re: A few thoughts to consider. [Re: Nemo]
TheNaturalForce Offline
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Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
I actually have considered some of those thoughts but not to the degree you have outlined. It truly is difficult at times to disregard these mental Boxes. As always, your input far exceeds that of the many. Thank you for the insights Magister Nemo.
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#240095 - 05/02/07 03:50 PM Re: A few thoughts to consider. [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Not thinking about it almost daily is a dangerous sport.

Think deep...think long...think till you think you thought to thinking-much!
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240120 - 05/02/07 05:03 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Chess Offline
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Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Earth sucks off a new star at the round-about age of 5 billion years. Now, we can see "other stars" in the most distant of galaxies (oldest being about 12.7 billion years old). Now...lets think, if life is prolly really normal for the universe, there is more stars older then ours then there are flies on this planet....


Sorry, just a quick nitpick before moving on -- many of the stars older than the Sun are metal-poor Population II and III bodies. The implication is that there was a lot less non-hydrogen material available during planetary formation, thus reducing their likelihood as abodes of life. (Of course, there's still no shortage of metal-rich Population I stars that are older than the Sun. This just cuts down your numbers a bit.)

 Quote:
In fact, in another 100 years the human race will be much smarter and much more advanced (sell Bell's law and the history of our race). This means, if one race is 100 years older then ours, and much the same as we are, then they are alot more intelligent.


The sticking point here is that "much the same as we are" bit. We could easily imagine a species that takes several thousand years to say "hello". But even if they're Exactly Like Us, then chaos and accidents of history would play far more of a role in their technological level than an extra century or two of time.

But we can imagine anything we like. Going by what we observe, all we can say with certainty is that there doesn't seem to be a Type III civilization (to use Kardashev's term) anywhere nearby. Now, even at a very modest level of growth, a starfaring civilization could easily cover an entire galaxy in just a few million years. And as you point out, there's been ample time for that to happen. But it certainly looks like it hasn't.

This is the good ol' Fermi Paradox, and there are only a few ways to resolve it. These boil down to:

1. They aren't out there. We're the only, or at least the first, technological species in the galaxy.

2. Civilization is inherently unstable and self-destructive -- sentient species always destroy themselves before making a mark on their galaxy. They could be growing and dying all the time and it wouldn't matter on the galactic scale, since not one ever survives.

3. There are plenty of stable civilizations out there, but not a single one of them is expansionist.

4. They're here. We just haven't noticed them.

All of these seem preposterously unlikely. Yet one of them must be true.

-Chess

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#240164 - 05/02/07 07:35 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Chess]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
First off, show me a place you think life can not establish itself, and I will say "life as you know it" can't establish there.

But...You leave out many other factors in you 1-4 list of "why we 'no no' on the E.T yet"

You forgot

5. We are are so small to them that communicating with us would be like humans speaking to insect; Human being 'more complex' but not backward compatible. Giving little chance for the gap between levels of understanding too ever truly meet.

6. Seeing any product of this race's technology or existence would not be anything as slow and "low tech" as what we recogize as "signs of technology" today. We would be the foolish chimps saying

"Nope there is no one online in the universe, cus I didn't hear no 56k modem dial up"

The high speed connection one would need to overcome the limitations of time, space and all the physics within , may not bring SETI to get a boner- but be overlooked or not even seen. We are looking for electromagnetic signs these days, but much growing concern keeps popping up at science tables and debates on this subject; has advanced civilizations escaped the EM spectrum with its technology?

7. A bad thing is out there. A horrible monster...breeding all over the universe in many ways. Those who have learned they "can" send word had either learned what I already know "Life kills weaker life" and died...or were smart enough to lay low.

8. "Come and go races" do just that, but what wealth have they left behind? Surly if we can one day make fake life-bots so real that no man goes unfooled, then could not some of these advanced races leave behind other races? Created races? Races that need not seek outside communication for it was created to remain meek so its creators could control it fully?
Nanotechonolgy itself offers amazing chances to escape the end of the universe, nevermind the end of a planet or solar-sytem's death. If so...what did these races look like? Full beings hard to ship? Or tiny coded balls fully programed to complicate spilt and become fully working robots over spans of time?

9. Most of space has still "not been put to the eye". The universe is huge, and we still have not put our tools to much of the sky...nevermind that what we can not see.

10. You are a robot...and you will not see your coder. The coder will not see you, unless for one reason or another, or unless you excel as a robot. Then you will be downloaded in a manner science can not see yet, and used for whatever it is these "humans" do to us robotic insects when they actually bring us to the lab we can't understand.

But whatever the case...

To assume everything you read is true, will be a fast way to kill you. To think "life", the mighty cell that can grow in a hostile void, can not survive past our level- Just seems like a piggy I don't want money in. Much of science agrees there.


There is alot more...but Its all basic. I mean...really.
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240181 - 05/02/07 08:47 PM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12416
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
11. Just looking at what is already a straight-line prediction based on current technology, it is clear that aging and the limiting qualities of the human mind will be both historical curiosities soon enough.

The resulting transhuman will be as alien to the current human model as any alien species would be to humankind right now.

Soon enough we will become our own aliens.

And what will stop the tranhuman diaspora from spreading out (if this is the first time)?

Nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

Thus the chances it has not already happened are practically zero.

The evidence?

It could be all around you.

The proof?

That is denied. ;\)
_________________________
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD
The Achievement of Infinite Self-Esteem
Nemo on Satanism - an mp3 audio program

THE FIRE FROM WITHIN

Nemo On Satanism: Volume One
Satanic Sources - Print

My 9sense interview on Greater Magic:
http://youtu.be/PCcYWmeSkCI



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#240205 - 05/02/07 11:01 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Evil_Eve]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Carl Sagan is good introduction material. Once a person actually starts doing their own thought experiments and testing the need for him and the mainstream washes away.

Carl Sagan would have called me a fool for most of the ideas I fiddle with. I am sure Richard Smalley, James Randi (who has no experience in science), and Tim Thompson would as well.

But I call them stubborn.
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"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#240207 - 05/02/07 11:10 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Discipline]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
When Carl passed I cried...there are few in the world of the famous that when falling to death, have dropped me to a puddle maker.

CARL!!!! I love you you ugly man with a pretty brain!

Hail Carl Sagan!
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240214 - 05/03/07 12:21 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
To be honest I am not that fond of him.

I can only say that he introduced me to astronomy, but I have gotten to the point where I don't follow his set ideas.



Edited by Discipline (05/03/07 12:27 AM)
Edit Reason: Improper tense and bad grammar.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#240215 - 05/03/07 12:22 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Discipline]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
I can respect that...fair and fine.

And still respect you.
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240216 - 05/03/07 12:26 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Thanks. \:D
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#240217 - 05/03/07 12:27 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
latenighter Offline


Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 43
Here is my thought as to why we have not been contacted by any advanced civilization. They have been picking up all our t.v signals, and simply don't realize there is any intelligent life here!

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#240219 - 05/03/07 12:39 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
First off, show me a place you think life can not establish itself, and I will say "life as you know it" can't establish there.


Show me a place where you think there can't possibly be peanut butter, and I will say "peanut butter as you know it". Therefore, you have peanut butter in your ear. QED. ;\)

But still, your numbers 5 through 9 seem to be special cases of my number 4 ("we haven't noticed them"). Respectively, we haven't noticed them because of vast differences in intelligence level; because we don't recognize their technology as such; because they choose not to be noticed; and because we haven't looked everywhere yet.

Option 10, it seems, could be boiled down further into the following statement: "What we percieve bears no resemblance to what is real." It's an idea that has found fruit from Plato to the Wachowski Brothers, but since it can never be disproven, even in principle... well, then it's just as valid an answer to the Fermi Paradox as it is to the mystery of where you left your keys. That is, it's an interesting philosophical tidbit but not very helpful in day-to-day life.

 Quote:
To assume everything you read is true, will be a fast way to kill you. To think "life", the mighty cell that can grow in a hostile void, can not survive past our level- Just seems like a piggy I don't want money in.


I only said that was one possible resolution of the Fermi Paradox. You'll also note that I called it preposterously unlikely... along with all the others. I don't claim to know the actual answer.

-Chess

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#240222 - 05/03/07 01:09 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Chess]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Well I have no problems with the way you walk in this...I enjoy reading you.

But...one thing

"peanut butter" does not shock the shit out of science each year showing up fully able to thrive in places we dubbed "impossible" for peanut butter to live....

You know this and semantical peanut butter is silly....

Kiss me you fool
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240251 - 05/03/07 08:30 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: latenighter]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: latenighter
Here is my thought as to why we have not been contacted by any advanced civilization. They have been picking up all our t.v signals, and simply don't realize there is any intelligent life here!


~Wicked grin from the cat~

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#240258 - 05/03/07 10:15 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I think it is pretty much a certainty that there is "intelligent life" elsewhere in the universe. If my understanding of evolution is even half correct, then the evolution of life is a given, under certain circumstances. I would assume the same is true of "intelligent life". I do wonder what you mean by "intelligent life", however. My cat and snake have intelligence, as do my wife, son and I. Each is different, but intelligence, nonetheless. Are you asking if we believe that there is intelligence, in the way humans are intelligent?
_________________________
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"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#240261 - 05/03/07 10:28 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Mr_Atrox Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1810
Loc: Lycopolis
Intelligence:

Noun

(n) intelligence (the ability to comprehend; to understand and profit from experience)

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=intelligence

You are correct in asking for clarification.

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#240263 - 05/03/07 10:41 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11465
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: HoundDog
What are your thoughts on intelligent extraterrestrial life?


I don't rule out the possibility, and agree that the stories and "documentaries" are entertaining. But speaking as a Satanist, I must say that I see too many mystics wrapped up in the subject, and that in turn means they regurgitate a lot of mysticism back into the subject. So it's pretty much overrun with New-Age garbage.

The anecdotes of alien abductions are about as believable as the "Satanic Cult" abduction stories during the Satanic Panic of the 80s, both of which are largely due to false memory syndrome (where ideas are planted in the subject's head during a state of hypnosis, using suggestive questioning). The abductees also always describe the aliens as anthropomorphic. This doesn't make any sense biologically, because a species coming from a completely different planet isolated from ours wouldn't have had the same unique path of evolution to have a human-shaped body.

For these hard-core alien believers, their belief fulfills the same needs that religion used to provide: externalized deity, the sense-of-something-greater, fantasy and awe elements, etc. Back when humans didn't know what was in the clouds, in the oceans, or inside of the earth, they developed notions of underworlds, sea monsters and rain gods and what not. So the "final frontier", being an unexplored place, offers a place for these ego projections to manifest again. Questions about the physics of space travel, or the probabilities or reasons for why an alien would want to visit the earth, are either dismissed or rambled away in more mysticism.

Then you have the Scientologists and such groups who claim to be part of some alien race that visited the earth at some point and interbred with the species, or were reincarnated into people today, or individuals that claim to have had sex with aliens, etc. I find that to be not only an extended example of human's need for fantasy and dogma, but even worse, it also stems from some people's need to feel superior or special, or simply give justification for being socially retarded. "Now why I know I never got much dates or got to play in any reindeer games. It's because I'm the nephew of Gleepglop of the Googol galaxy! Good think I paid that hypnotist $500 to find this out."
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

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#240269 - 05/03/07 11:03 AM The Galaxy Song. [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
I think Monty Python said it best......



Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

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#240289 - 05/03/07 02:35 PM Re: Carl Sagan [Re: Discipline]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12416
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Carl Sagan?

When he died I celebrated the fact!

An excellent speaker with a clearly brilliant mind, he still chose to support the status quo of studied ignorance over the true potentials of science in the very fields he championed for the popular media.

I also have a long-standing problem with anyone who promotes "recreational" drug use as he was purported to do according to this.

(See the section under "Social Concerns" where this issue and the declaration that an effective anti-missile system - such as those now being installed - was "impossible". I will not discuss political issues in public but Sagan's arrests as a peacenik played into the Soviet propaganda at the time. Very little in this world has been as anti-Satanic in nature as Soviet Russia was).

Purported drugee, peacenik, and sellout to true science.

He has been dead a bit more than ten years.

Good riddance.
_________________________
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD
The Achievement of Infinite Self-Esteem
Nemo on Satanism - an mp3 audio program

THE FIRE FROM WITHIN

Nemo On Satanism: Volume One
Satanic Sources - Print

My 9sense interview on Greater Magic:
http://youtu.be/PCcYWmeSkCI



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#240295 - 05/03/07 03:49 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
 Quote:
I think it is pretty much a certainty that there is "intelligent life" elsewhere in the universe. If my understanding of evolution is even half correct, then the evolution of life is a given, under certain circumstances. I would assume the same is true of "intelligent life". I do wonder what you mean by "intelligent life", however. My cat and snake have intelligence, as do my wife, son and I. Each is different, but intelligence, nonetheless. Are you asking if we believe that there is intelligence, in the way humans are intelligent?


Intelligence is everywhere on this planet. Jane Goodall for example had discovered that chimpanzees make tools for use in foraging for food. Sea animals such as dolphins and whales are known to have complex languages. I too have seen intelligence in domesticated cats and dogs. Each cat has its own personality and some are very clever. Humans are different though. We have science. We can leave the planet.

I am more interested in the opinions and thoughts of LttD users about the possibilities of Extraterrestrial Intelligence. It would be a mistake to assume that alien life would resemble life on this planet in any way.
_________________________
SNAP!

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#240297 - 05/03/07 03:56 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Mr_Atrox]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
Well, the word "intelligence" may not be the best word to describe the idea to it's core, but it is the word most generally used in the subject. Maybe ExtraTerrestrial Civilization would be more suited here. Then again, you could say ants are civilized to a certain degree with their organized work forces and armies.
_________________________
SNAP!

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#240299 - 05/03/07 04:42 PM Re: Carl Sagan [Re: Nemo]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Well seeing as Carl was who first introduced me to my love for space (one of my first loves) I can not say I have any care for what mistakes he made in life or science.

Yes yes...there are many "drug users" who I love within the history of science or art. yes I know the more "militant" minds of Satanism often cut mental ties from all drug users of the past...but, I can not when it comes to great artists or lost pirates of thought.

I first learned of space from Carl and I have to thank him there.

I see you still allow him the grace of being "brilliant", I love that. I also notice your major problem with him seems to be the fact that he refused to leave the calm waters of "common ignorance" within his area of study...no crime there.

I can allow a dead man his crimes if he sparked my mind in a way I can never forget.
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240328 - 05/03/07 08:54 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
I still say that when we start moving out into the galaxy the thing we will find most of is ruins. I find it odd that people always assume that whatever intellegent life that may evolve in other parts of the galaxy will do so on a concurrent timeline with us. At the other end of the spectrum would be sentience that has far surpassed us in technology and and morphology. Would we even recognize them if we saw them? Would they bother to announce themselves if they saw us? I often see people remark that they would not wish to waste time talking to someone that is unteachable and belligerent. Why would such beings bother wasting time with us? So all we will truely find is ruins, civilizations that, for one reason or another, didn't make it.

If we are really lucky we will find the ruins of a civilization that is far more advanced than us, and didn't make it. We could at least take their technology and get a boost.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#240331 - 05/03/07 09:30 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Babydoll Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 850
Loc: Australia
 Quote:
What are your thoughts on intelligent extraterrestrial life?


Gliese 581 c may be a good place to start looking. And if nobody's home, maybe we could move in ;\)
_________________________
HAIL SATAN!

One LIFE - One chance



Who are We?

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#240333 - 05/03/07 09:36 PM Re: Carl Sagan [Re: Fagneto]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12416
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
I can allow a dead man his crimes if he sparked my mind in a way I can never forget.


Since he will remain dead that is just fine with me as well.
_________________________
DISCOVERING THE SATANIC GOD
The Achievement of Infinite Self-Esteem
Nemo on Satanism - an mp3 audio program

THE FIRE FROM WITHIN

Nemo On Satanism: Volume One
Satanic Sources - Print

My 9sense interview on Greater Magic:
http://youtu.be/PCcYWmeSkCI



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#240334 - 05/03/07 09:38 PM Re: Carl Sagan [Re: Nemo]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Ha ha ha!

So Mr. Sagan smoked pot. Perhaps he was too stoned to actually get off his butt and start looking at other ideas seriously.

He championed the status quo and pushed people to never doubt those in charge of mainstream education.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#240335 - 05/03/07 09:38 PM Re: Carl Sagan [Re: Nemo]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
HAHAHAHAHA!
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240349 - 05/03/07 11:19 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence & peanut butter [Re: Chess]
Isabel23 Offline
CoS Magistra

Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 2037
 Quote:
Show me a place where you think there can't possibly be peanut butter, and I will say "peanut butter as you know it". Therefore, you have peanut butter in your ear. QED


You may have forgotten about young children.

Now you may go back to your more serious discussion.
_________________________
Isabel
CoS Magistra

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#240350 - 05/03/07 11:26 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Bill_M]
Isabel23 Offline
CoS Magistra

Registered: 12/17/02
Posts: 2037
Someone might take the cue from Robert Anton Wilson and write up another science fiction world where all those crackpot theories are true.

It would make my brain feel like exploding.
_________________________
Isabel
CoS Magistra

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#240405 - 05/04/07 08:45 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6996
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
What I hear you asking is, what are our thoughts on the possibility that there is intelligence on other planets (or possibly an agreeable moon?) with developments similar to our's. In that case, my answer is still "yes". Since I believe that our evolution is determined by a natural prgression, as apposed to outside guidance, or "creative design", my opinion is that similar developments are found on planets with the conditions found on Earth.

Just my opinion...with the caveat that this is not my field of expertise.
_________________________
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/home.faces

http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#240535 - 05/04/07 11:42 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
Why wouldn't there be? I have read a few books by Erik Von Daniken, who wrote Chariots of the Gods and others. In one book he actually went through the numbers about how many planetary bodies could theoretically harbor life and it was immense. Another aspect is that we should refrain from arrogant thinking that we are the only form of intelligent life in the universe. If we are, then that would be a terrible waste of space and nature wastes nothing. We can also look at the vast species that populate this planet. I know that it is never good to have definitives either way, in this subject or in any other. Think about it, at one time the most brilliant minded men thought that the Sun reveolved around the Earth, before that men thought the Sun was pulled across the sky by RA. It just simply amazes me that the more we understand, the less we actually know. It also doesn't surprise me that man with his ego thinks that he is the intelligent species. Dolphins are intelligent too, maybe more intelligent since they don't trash their environment. Beings that live on another planet may not have the technology to contact us, but does that make them any less intelligent? If beings on another planet knew of us and could contact us, maybe they just simply have no interest to...

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#240571 - 05/05/07 06:57 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: DickSteele]
amagi Offline


Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 41
You believe something written by Erich von Däniken? The guy who thinks the Nazca lines are landing strips for flying saucers? Seriously, you should read better books on the subject.
_________________________
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

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#240587 - 05/05/07 08:10 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: amagi]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
First, I don't share that theory. What if he is right? Do you have enough information in your head to know one way or another? Besides I didn't just read the subject yesterday, I read it about 20 years ago when I was twelve. I was talking about going through the numbers of planetary bodies and how many could possibly support life which is a statistical analysis, I mentioned nothing about landing strips!

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#240636 - 05/05/07 11:09 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Stian07 Offline


Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Holmestrand, Norway.
*What are your thoughts on intelligent extraterrestrial life?*

Well, i am not quite sure what to belive, to me it seems logic that there would be some form of life out there considering the size of the universe.
and it may or may not be inteligent life.
we are young, we are the youngest planet that we know off, if there would be life out there, there are most likelely to simply just be ruins and sign of civilation that simply didnt make it or reached theyr end.

However, i have had some thoughts around this subject, and, if they exist, and they bother to take a look at our planet.

Wich one of us would they contact?
Humans, dogs, cows, whales?

perhaps this is a quiston we should think more about before talking about visits from outer space.

However, throu phonetics, there is a theory that intellegence can be decided out of languege, therefore, the more advanced languege, the more advance creature.

With this in mind, if we should ever get visits from "Aliens", they are surely gonna screw us, and talk with the whales... that is, if we havent managed to kill off all of them by that time.

This is simply becouse whales, have a form of languege far more advanced and phonetical evolutioned then ours will ever be.


Edited by Stian07 (05/05/07 11:10 AM)
_________________________
as a writer it strikes me that the people dont want to think about anything they might have to do something with. - S.

Vær hilset flittige vognslepere, altid jo lenger desto bedre, stadig stølere i knær og trettere i hodet, ubegeistret, humørløst, uforbederlig-middelmådig - Sans genie et sans esprit. - Friedrich Nietzsche.


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#240641 - 05/05/07 11:21 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Stian07]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
Do they?

They have a very complicated system of sounds but is this a complicated language?

What do you suppose they are talking about?

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#240649 - 05/05/07 11:39 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Mr Sam]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Whales have the biggest brain of any animal alive today. About 5-6 times the size of human brains (but since the body/brain ratio is in our favor its a debate who is smarter, with most science in favor of "us").

"Whale song" is what we call the langue of whales, and it is very complex, yup yup, but is mostly assumed to be used for sexual reasons or locating food. The majority of people who stand to say it is an actual "worded langue" able of complex sentences or complex thought are usually from the anti-whaling community.

There is no documented proof that they are actually saying anything more then "where is food" or, Can we fuck?".

Now alot of people will say "thats bullshit cus I saw on discovery blah blah blah", but fact remains, most of the studies placed on the nature of Whale-song have never validated or given "reason enough" to lable it a true "langue" (hence why it is called whale-song).

Huge lumps of cash have been dropped on study after study of whale-song in hopes to prove it a "real" langue for many decades now; all attempts have failed. If it was ever proven they were using "more words then humans" trust me, it would be the end of whaling and the day we declared another creature "lucid" among us.

Until then, they are seen as animals...and shall be treated as such.


Edited by Fagneto (05/05/07 11:42 AM)
Edit Reason: Are whales smart or just good singers?
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240651 - 05/05/07 11:50 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
My questions were rhetorical smart guy. ;\)

 Originally Posted By: Fagneto
Until then, they are seen as animals...and shall be treated as such.


If they were proved to be as, or more, intelligent than us would they not be seen as animals? Do you not see us as animals?

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#240656 - 05/05/07 12:01 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Mr Sam]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Of course I KNOW we are animals...so does science.

But the fucked up world places us as more important in most circles.
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240669 - 05/05/07 01:05 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6130
Loc: In transit
 Originally Posted By: Fagneto
There is no documented proof that they are actually saying anything more then "where is food" or, "Can we fuck?".


I've known certain men that were equally limited in conversation skills.
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

“Up where the smoke is all billered and curled
'Tween pavement and stars is the chimney sweep world
When there's 'ardly no day nor 'ardly no night
There's things 'alf in shadow and 'alfway in light" ~ The New Christy Minstrels

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#240670 - 05/05/07 01:07 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Shade]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Ha!
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240671 - 05/05/07 01:08 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Thaumaturge Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 1802
Loc: Delaware
Shade...I tell you your beautiful Too!!!!!

Then the other too...LOL

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#240684 - 05/05/07 02:30 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Fagneto]
Stian07 Offline


Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Holmestrand, Norway.
True, i agree, i cannot think they are saying more than lets fuck or got food?

However, phonetic is after all a way of using Sound for communication, and whales communicate, and considering that theyr way of communication and theyr "languege" (even if it is one or not) is highly more advanced then ours.

If some poor bastard E.T. decides to have a look at our planet and therefore first look after who is the most inteligent creature, and therefore take a fast look at our way of communication, they are sure as hell gonna stop for a small chat with the whales.

HECK, what say THEY cannot look like whales, or BE whales for that matter.
hahaha, if they where soo, we as hunters sure as hell are just gonna be "loved" by theese visitors
_________________________
as a writer it strikes me that the people dont want to think about anything they might have to do something with. - S.

Vær hilset flittige vognslepere, altid jo lenger desto bedre, stadig stølere i knær og trettere i hodet, ubegeistret, humørløst, uforbederlig-middelmådig - Sans genie et sans esprit. - Friedrich Nietzsche.


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#240694 - 05/05/07 03:51 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
I'm more interested in discovering whether there is in fact intelligent terrestrial life.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#240711 - 05/05/07 05:28 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
There are plenty of ruins here on Earth left to explore as well.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#240713 - 05/05/07 05:35 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
And many more to come.
_________________________
I am forever in the shadow of my crime, and for that I ask for punishment but only of the level I earned. I ask to not be removed from the place I find truth. I have been a very small creature, and have no excuse.

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#240714 - 05/05/07 05:41 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Thaumaturge Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 1802
Loc: Delaware
Warlock LeviathanXIII preach on!! I agree. I don't think we have to worry about any official visit from what or who ever is out there until we can act more like big boys and girls. If we do, I suspect the alien agenda version of one giant TIME OUT.

for a good book on the subject if you believe in the possibility or just a great read if you don't look up

Alien agenda by Jim Marrs

he is a good friend of mine and really presents interesting ideas from ancient to modern times.

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#240754 - 05/05/07 08:58 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: DickSteele]
Babydoll Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 850
Loc: Australia
 Quote:
It also doesn't surprise me that man with his ego thinks that he is the intelligent species.


I learnt that the only thing which has actually allowed us to advance is that we started to RECORD (write down) what we learned, so we could pass it on, and later generations built on it.

All of the technological accomplishments of TODAY are dependant upon the 'primitive' accompishments of the past.

Our brains are the same as the first Homosapians, it's just that we have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge at our fingertips that allows us to advance further.

We think we're smart because we 'know' that the earth revolves around the sun, but hey smarty pants if nobody TOLD you, you wouldn't 'KNOW'!!!

As a civilisation we're very advanced compared to the first human civilisations, but as indiviudals we're not any different. It's common for humans to judge themselves on collective accomplishments.
_________________________
HAIL SATAN!

One LIFE - One chance



Who are We?

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#240755 - 05/05/07 09:03 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: DickSteele]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Dolphins fight, rape and wage small battles...

So yes, maybe they are just like humans...

BUT!

No thumbs? No space ships! Tough luck flipper! Ha!

But yes...I agree with much you just wrote...screw it, lets all go out to space and find us some aliens....who wants to drive?



Edited by Fagneto (05/05/07 09:06 PM)
Edit Reason: I needed more space.
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#241150 - 05/08/07 03:10 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Thought about this for a moment, and it seems crystal clear. Aliens would not logically have visited earth, and I can prove it.

It is biological imperative to aggressively colonize any available territory that is viable for colonization. This is true of all known organisms; failure to do so would result in extinction under pressure from other species that do aggressively colonize. Therefore, it is certainly true that no species would achieve advanced technology required for interplanetary travel without being an aggressive colonizer, since dominance of local territory would be required to develop technology in the first place. Hence we should assume that any advanced race would be dominant on their home planet, and therefore an aggressive colonizer. We can't merely argue that they're "enlightened" either, and would not colonize us for whatever reason; they would have the biological imperative to colonize, or they'd have never reached their current stage of development. Likewise, they would probably not have the urge to visit other planets if they did not have such a colonizing urge to begin with.

Europeans did not visit North America, drop off some gunpowder and metalworking technology for the natives, and go home.

So why would they visit earth, and fail to colonize it? If they can get here and fly around here, presumably they can also colonize it; odds are good that earth is safe for them to live on without apparatus, but regardless they should certainly have apparatus at their disposal to make it possible.

Likewise, any species that advanced would have nothing to fear from us, and if the popular accounts are true, visited us while we were still a very unadvanced race. Hence, aliens should have colonized earth at an early juncture, and we wouldn't be here to discuss it, at least not as a dominant species.

Hence, aliens do not visit and have not visited earth.

PS - Claiming they have motives beyond our comprehension just sounds like god-adulation. Faith doesn't fly with scientific inquiry.
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#241162 - 05/08/07 04:31 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
I think the biggest problem with discussing and looking for intelligent life elsewhere is the mistake of projecting our own human characteristics in to these potential life forms. Even in looking for intelligent life on earth we make the mistake of using ourselves as the measuring stick.

We base intelligence on ourselves and what we have accomplished. Somewhere someone said wale language is not used for any other purpose other than "lets fuck" or "where is the food". Then again, how are we measuring this language? We don't even know what the different sounds they make mean.

Some conclude we were not visited simply because we were not conquered. Again we are thinking to human like. And very narrow even for human standards. We are projecting our own characteristics into ET.

Maybe we're a science experiment. Their version of evolution? Maybe we are a farm of some sort. Maybe they were on their way to somewhere else and stopped by quickly because they were curious. Maybe their is a use for us we haven't even thought of.

Maybe we haven't observed life on planets because it doesn't exist the same way it does here. They could exist in a gas like body and communicate with ripples, much the same as sound, but more complex. They may not live on planets but have complex societies living in some nebula elsewhere.

Maybe they communicate with each other with a series of flashes of an ultraviolet biological LED located on some ambiguous lump on what we would perceive as a head. And perhaps they are a fluorine based life form. We can't see how they communicate, so we may see it as telepathy. Maybe they are telepathic, in the sense their brain has a section which gives of radio waves.

Humans can see certain types of radiation. iguanas can see ultraviolets and as a result they cannot see through glass, as glass is not transparent to ultraviolet light. If there was a creature made out of really fine glass, humans wouldn't be able to see it, but iguanas could. Maybe the aliens are transparent to our visible wavelengths of light and they are waving their hands/tentacles at us, but we cannot see them. Maybe they can't see us.

We scan the system of radio waves, we sometimes pick up x-rays, who is to say thats how they send signals? Maybe radiation is their version of body oder? Perhaps they are trying to find intelligent life and are sending out static because they communicate that way.

Maybe its because we are afraid of talking to something that is so different than us that we are willing to ignore intelligent life of all kinds of forms just in the hopes to look for something we can relate to. It is easier to look for something like us and fail looking for it than to look for things that are extremely different than us which we may have a nearly impossible time communicating with them.


Edited by tovasshi (05/08/07 04:38 AM)
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#241231 - 05/08/07 12:48 PM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
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Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
An excellent suggestion!

The only drawback I can see is that these assumptions may very well be no longer true for any truly advanced technology beyond our own current level.

The Singularity Is Near: When Humans Transcend Biology is an example of what modern day human beings could expect along this line in the very near future.

Your suggestion is very worthwhile as it comes from what we can see already and know exists without question.

It never hurts to work with what you already know exists!

However if engineering visionaries like Kurzweil (and Drexler and Moravec) prove in time to be correct, we simply can't rule out what a sufficiently advanced technological intelligence would do or not do.

In such a case we could be colonized right now and be totally unaware of that fact.

Utility Fog is a single example of a slightly advanced technology that would enable one to walk around invisible to others and capable of some rather godlike powers. If we encountered someone wrapped in Utility Fog we would not even know they were there unless they wished it.

If such relatively simple technologies that we currently can project as possible to build can change the rules, then all bets are off. Chess on a board with no edges is an entirely different game, for example.

If you would like to discuss this concept further (based essentially on Clarke's Third Law "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.") we could do that downstairs in the Greater Magic forum.
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#241237 - 05/08/07 01:36 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
I assume the tiny micro-sized dot-people on the moon think we never showed up?

I dunno If I think all like would colonize anything it touches. I have no idea what life becomes when it is advanced enough to travel the stars.
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#241238 - 05/08/07 01:39 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: tovasshi]
ModernTantalus Offline


Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 325
I think that you're right about people trying to project their own motives and mindset on alien races. We search the radio wavelength for messages from space. The two problems that immediately come to mind are:
1.) What if they don't breath oxygen. If they breath methane then their entire atmosphere may be different from ours and opaque to the radio waves that our atmosphere is transparent to.
2.) Perhaps radio communication if primitive. How do we know if this is the most efficient form of communication? Perhaps they use quantum entaglement for faster than light communications. Perhaps radio waves never occured to them and all information is transmitted through fiber optics. They may even use micro wormholes to send messages quickly.

Furthermore, human beings equate technology with intelligence. Some scientists believe that the depth of the cortical folds on the frontal lobes are an accurate measure of intelligence. If this is the case dolphins are smarter than humans. Intelligence simply represents problem solving skills and a capacity to learn. A highly intelligent race may have realized the consequences of unbridled technology and intentionally remained "primitive."

I also can't help but wonder how long an alien might live. What if they live 1000 years? 100,000? 1,000,000? Could we comprehend what it means to live and plan on this time scale? Perhaps aliens are invading, but they're taking it rediculously slow. Maybe they live so long that they're simply waiting for us to finish ourselves off. Regardless, the existance or non-existance of aliens makes little difference in my day to day life (aside from the possibility of merchandising one day.) It's just fun to think and speculate about.

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#241271 - 05/08/07 04:10 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
evildork Offline


Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 100
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Your theory for why we haven't been visited is also a theory for why we're being visited. UFO's are supposedly the scout ships, and the invading forces just haven't arrived yet.

And Nemo, I don't see how transcending biology poses much of a problem to the theory. Even if they stopped aging, dying and reproducing, they may not have been able to eliminate the need for resources. And if they did, they may not have been able to eliminate the desire to explore, expand, conquer, control, etc. And if they could, they may not have wanted to.

The only thing I see myself assuming here is that extra-terrestrial life capable of travelling to our planet would've at least at one time required resources of some kind, because I assume that needs are a requirement for the desire to explore, expand, conquer, control, etc. And in the case of a species with the power to eliminate it's desires, I assume the fulfillment of desires is pleasing, making desire... desirable.
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#241294 - 05/08/07 05:55 PM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: evildork]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
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Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
And Nemo, I don't see how transcending biology poses much of a problem to the theory.


If you want to understand how then you might consider reading a bit more deeply into the references I mentioned. They explain it in great detail.

When the rules of the game are different from what you know, it is difficult to predict the moves. ;\)

As I mentioned before I am willing to discuss this topic downstairs in the context of Greater Magic.
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#241296 - 05/08/07 06:01 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Chess Offline
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Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Likewise, any species that advanced would have nothing to fear from us, and if the popular accounts are true, visited us while we were still a very unadvanced race. Hence, aliens should have colonized earth at an early juncture, and we wouldn't be here to discuss it, at least not as a dominant species.


Unless the method of colonization isn't so narrow. What if the prevailing attitude is to spread a generalized form of life, and allow it to adapt itself to any niche it can hold, rather than to try and transplant a particular species into alien environments? If that's the case, then perhaps the aliens arrived billions of years ago... and we've been here ever since.

(The classic objection to this, of course, is that sooner or later some deviant species will decide to do things the hard way, and we're right back at the Fermi Paradox where we started.)

 Quote:
PS - Claiming they have motives beyond our comprehension just sounds like god-adulation.


Not necessarily. Hell, my girlfriend has motives beyond my comprehension, but I certainly don't worship... well... okay, except for when she gets out the cuffs and flogger. But that's a special case. You know, when she's being *ahem* a "dominant species."

-Chess


Edited by Chess (05/08/07 06:08 PM)

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#241344 - 05/08/07 10:57 PM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: Nemo]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Then it would be a logical conclusion that such a sufficiently advanced species would not be unique in the universe.

If two such species found each other, which seems probable if they are advanced enough to cross interstellar distances in reasonable time frames and life supporting planets exist in sufficient density distribution throughout the galaxy that any given two species would ever run into each other (postulated by the fact that we are assuming such an interstellar species found us), then the conclusion would be logical enough.

The species that was the more aggressive colonizer would conquer the other and would replace it.

Now, I'll grant you that if you postulate things that we have no clue about, you can come up with just about any result you want, but doing that seems...sticky to me. I could just as well postulate that such an advanced species is able to colonize anything and has therefore colonized every single square inch of the universe, but that would require not one, but a series of essentially invented, unsupported assumptions leading to an absurd conclusion.

Bottom line is this: if we are to go into such wildly speculative realms, then the only thing we can be certain of is that we have no damned idea what we're talking about, and it is more logical to relax and have a beer than to spend a moment in concern for such possibilities.
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#241347 - 05/08/07 11:32 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
 Quote:
Likewise, any species that advanced would have nothing to fear from us, and if the popular accounts are true, visited us while we were still a very unadvanced race. Hence, aliens should have colonized earth at an early juncture, and we wouldn't be here to discuss it, at least not as a dominant species.


I would agree, only with the caveat that it is possible that such postulated aliens required an element vital to their life processes, which is not found on Earth. No matter how advanced they would be, they would not be immune to mistakes, and that would be a mistake that resulted in a "failed" colony. Otherwise I find your logic to be iron clad.


Edited by Jack_Lantern (05/08/07 11:33 PM)
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#241371 - 05/09/07 03:00 AM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
I so agree...

Cept for the beer thing...
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#241374 - 05/09/07 04:41 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3961
Loc: The Deep South
 Quote:
So why would they visit earth, and fail to colonize it?


Perhaps their supply of antibiotics came on the tenth cylinder, which got lost in the way...
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#241375 - 05/09/07 04:49 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
Your logic has a very strong biological basis, however even the most advanced and intelligent species can harbour strong ideas and morals that are contrary to the laws of nature. Just like a lot of highly intelligent humans fall for the idealistic nonsense of communism and socialism, there's no reason to think that other intelligent species, despite their technological sophistication, couldn't be equally philosophically flawed.

Of course, the distance between relative levels of intelligence could be a factor too. If I come across an anthill, I'm far more likely to spent some time carefully observing it than I am to conquor or destroy it. The only time I would be likely to indulge in ant-genocide would be if the anthill was in my way. A suitably advanced race would likely have no need to colonise earth. Given the size of the universe I'd say that aliens that managed to get here would most likely either be interested in scientific observation or extermination to make way for an interstellar bypass.

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#241399 - 05/09/07 07:03 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Wile_E_Quixote]
Minus Offline
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Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 2235
Loc: Circling A Star
 Quote:
If I come across an anthill, I'm far more likely to spent some time carefully observing it than I am to conquor or destroy it.


Pussy...

;\)
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#241506 - 05/09/07 04:48 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Minus]
Fagneto Offline
The Weakest Link

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 273
Loc: CT
Ha!
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#241537 - 05/09/07 06:49 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Minus]
Enchantress Offline

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Good one!
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#241538 - 05/09/07 06:51 PM Historical Documentations. [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Unknown Offline


Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1644
Loc: 611 Calif. St.
Historical documentations, such as the Piri Reis map exist as well.
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#241556 - 05/09/07 08:55 PM Re: Historical Documentations. [Re: Unknown]
Enchantress Offline

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Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 2163
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: Unknown
...Piri Reis map....


Here is a Wikipedia article about the Piri Reis map.
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#241561 - 05/09/07 09:04 PM Re: Extraterrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
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Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I have already posted downstairs in some detail with the elements that are far from speculative, but under development.

You are welcome to explore it if you wish.

Beer is fine either way. ;\)
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#241577 - 05/09/07 11:13 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Wile_E_Quixote]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
If I come across an anthill, I'm far more likely to spent some time carefully observing it than I am to conquor or destroy it.

I said neither conquer nor destroy.

Would you refuse to build your house on a particular plot of land because some ants were already making an anthill there? I rather doubt it. You likely wouldn't give a damn what the ants are building, you'd put your house where you feel like.

there's no reason to think that other intelligent species, despite their technological sophistication, couldn't be equally philosophically flawed

Despite all the idiot ideas they proclaim to support, I've never seen humans fail to colonize available territory or actually act in any way contrary to their basic biological programming. By humans, I mean the species, not a couple of isolated individuals with flawed cerebral cortices.

Humans colonized the extreme north of Europe, the Sahara desert, isolated Pacific islands, and built a station on Antarctica. We dream of a colony on the moon. We want to live even in places that make little sense to want to live, given the native conditions there, because our colonization urge is so powerful.

Somehow, despite being morons, we still obey the basic biological certainties that are built into any species.

A suitably advanced race would likely have no need to colonise earth.

Did we have any need to live in the tundra and desert, or cross the Bering Strait, or paddle across vast ocean distances in a kayak just to get on a tiny little island? We did it anyway. Biology has this funny way of trumping logic no matter how smart the person is, hence why there are a bunch of pretty smart people who nevertheless eat sugar and fat until they bloat up and die.
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#241580 - 05/09/07 11:47 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Darxyd Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 182
Loc: KS, USA
First off, it is VERY likely that other lifeforms exist of other planets in the known universe. Even random chance in chaos gives in to the statistical percentages on that one. The problem truly exists in this:
If you take the relative age of the known universe and relative age of the planet Earth, you'll find that our planet is not one of the last heavenly bodies to develop but closer to the earlier rounds of nebular creation. Then take into account the time frame it takes for any lifeforms to develop on a planet and then evolve to the point of becoming the dominant species on the planet. What you have left over is this--It is highly probably that intellegent lifeforms exist on other planets in the universe, but it is also highly probably that most of them are either around the same technological level we are (more or less) or they are stuck in developmental stasis (Dinosaurs with no comets or ice age; or a society with little innovation to progress technologically--like American Indians remaining a stone age culture up until the Europeans dropped in.)


Edited by Darxyd (05/09/07 11:48 PM)
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#243533 - 05/17/07 12:41 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Exanimus]
Anya Offline


Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 39
NASA plans to launch the Kepler mission in 2008. The goal of this mission is not only to detect Earth-sized planets but also to detect light from the planet so that it may be studied spectroscopically.
Bullshit aside, w/ this knowledge we may be able to determine the likelihood of life being found on other planets.
Personally I believe extraterrestrials do exist. To think that Earth is the only planet bearing life is absurd. We are a small piece of a large puzzle that we don't use enough brain power to put together..lol
When we come across this information ( giggles to self ) imagine how innate most people will feel?
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#245931 - 05/29/07 02:40 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017

Unless, we are the aliens…

In the same vein that it could be unlikely for intelligent alien life to resemble us at all, it could be equally likely that we are a grand experiment of our own race. Think about it. Perhaps there is a technologically and superior and more evolved humanoid race who has evolved and colonized some planet parecs away from Earth. In an effort to more fully understand its own evolution, it somehow fertilized Earth with we humans to watch us grow as might you an aquarium of sea monkeys.

Somehow, I can see us conducting a similar experiment in the not too distant future.

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#245958 - 05/29/07 05:39 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Marianne Offline


Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 29
Loc: N.Ireland
Personally I think that if there are any other intelligent lifeforms or 'aliens' existing in the cosmos, they hopefully have the sense not to come anywhere near humans...for their sake.

Hail Satan!

M
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#246016 - 05/30/07 12:52 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheAbysmal]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Other than science fiction hilarity, what is the purpose of such a far fetched claim, especially with no evidence to back it?

Also, see my post. Given the apparent scarcity of habitable real estate within driving distance, why would a really smart race use an entire planet for a 4 billion year science experiment instead of just moving in themselves? That doesn't sound very smart to me.

Also, your claim is fundamentally at odds with evolutionary theory, so unless you can resolve it with the amassed evidence that strongly favors evolution by natural selection as the origin of man (or actually prove that the theory is entirely wrong), the notion that we were planted here by a race that fundamentally resembles us is not logical (i.e., the alleged master race planting us here would have apparently started us from scratch as single celled organisms and manipulated evolution until we resembled them 4 billion years later).

Your notion, while quaint, is identical in every fundamental way to Christian creationism, with the aliens substituted for Yahweh.
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#246022 - 05/30/07 01:37 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
tovasshi Offline


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Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
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#246040 - 05/30/07 06:21 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
Last night on national geographic there was a show on about the crash at Roswell, while it is a possibility that something may have crashed there that was extraterrestrial, it is highly improbable. They talked about how they salvaged pieces from the crash, that it was "made of an indestructable material". Now, I'm no rocket scientist but it seems that if it was made of something indestructable then it wouldn't have been able to crash in the first place-.

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#246049 - 05/30/07 07:56 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Mr Sam]
Brotus_Heimdal Offline


Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 104
Loc: Danmark
What are whales talking about?

I read this in a MAD magazine. They are talking about how messed up their situation is. Due to overfishing and pollution there is no food for them in the sea and every time they try to get on land humans push them back into the water, sealing the doom of their species evolution.

Beside that i think they talk about the same as everybody else, global warming and the ridiculous prices on oil.
EDIT: whoops, i hadnt read the whole thread.
Whoa the whales talk was on page 5, i hadnt seen that there was 10 pages in this thread, sorry bout that. please ignore.


Edited by Brotus_Heimdal (05/30/07 08:01 AM)
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#246186 - 05/30/07 11:13 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017
LeviathanXIII,

It was a bit of misplaced humor. My apologies if it detracted from the thread. Given lighthearted replies along the lines of "aliens staying far away from us for their own good" and such, I thought it would have flown more easily.

Still, it seems that you did see the humor?

All goofiness aside, it held a thread of seriousness. Evolutionary Theory, while indeed having much practical scientific basis—and actually quite few spots on My reading list—still has some serious flaws and detractors. I am sure you are aware of some of these, of course, so I will not list a bunch here.

Basically, given its imperfections when compared to something more formulaic such as math, where even unproven theorums seem to work without failure, I am reluctant to adopt Evolution any more fully than I am Creationism. To Me, it just seems too contrived, at least at the moment. That was the underlying thread of seriousness in My post.

Of course, I am equally reluctant to try proving either wrong.
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#246200 - 05/31/07 01:41 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheAbysmal]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Evolutionary Theory, while indeed having much practical scientific basis—and actually quite few spots on My reading list—still has some serious flaws and detractors.

Detractors yes, but flaws? Such as?
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#246202 - 05/31/07 03:24 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Svengali Offline
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#246203 - 05/31/07 03:25 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheAbysmal]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11465
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: The Abysmal
Evolutionary Theory, while indeed having much practical scientific basis—and actually quite few spots on My reading list—still has some serious flaws and detractors.


If you truly found major flaws in this cornerstone of biology, why not publish a paper to a scientific journal? I'm sure you'll win a prize of some kind, if you actually have a valid argument.
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#246225 - 05/31/07 07:43 AM Re: No, please, list them [Re: TheAbysmal]
Mr_Atrox Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1810
Loc: Lycopolis
 Quote:
LeviathanXIII...

...Evolutionary Theory, while indeed having much practical scientific basis—and actually quite few spots on My reading list—still has some serious flaws and detractors. I am sure you are aware of some of these, of course, so I will not list a bunch here




I'm actually very curious as to what it is you're referring to.

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#246361 - 05/31/07 11:09 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017

First, I doubt My arguments are prize worthy, and I am sure they have a reasonable chance of crumbling under hard debate. Still, the flaws of evolution that I see are based on a mixture of My own thoughts and observations, and those from other sources that seemed put together lucidly enough, imperfect though they may have been.


So, here they go:


  1. Evolutionary Theory is just that… a theory. It is not yet the Law of Evolution. It is not a scientific law because there is not sufficient evidence to support it as one. That is not the flaw, however. Was is the flaw is that it is based, in part, on incomplete forensic evidence that scientists have amassed after the fact (macroevolution), and, in part, on what scientists have been able to observe (microevolution). The microevolution side of the story, to Me, seems well enough founded, but the larger picture, macroevolution, is on very shakey ground. It is based largely on an incomplete fossil record and good guesses to fill the remaining holes. But, take another look at the Peppered Moth, and you will see that even what has been observed is still impcomplete.
  2. So what if it is not a law, right? Theories and theorums have seen great application without proof. The Pythagorean Theorum endured for time immemorial without a proof until recently. Recent proofs aside, it still had practical application, and you could reasonably expect to get an accurate answer, even if no one could prove how it worked. Einstein's infamous Theories of Relativity, still unproven (unless that has also changed recently), had very practical application and results. Where is the practical application of the Theory of Evolution? So far as I have been able to tell, the Theory of Evolution still remains unapplied, and seems to exist soley to answer the question from where have we come?, incompletely in My opinion. This is a bit of a personal perspective of mine. I could really care less what is theory, law, or otherwise, so long as it can be applied to produce some kind of tangible results with reasonable expectations, or even reasonable failures. So far as I can tell, the Theory of Evolution remains largely untested. To rehash My stupid joke, Evolution might win Me over if we do find another life-sustaining planet our there and seed it with some kind of results.
  3. Evolution seems, to Me, largely based on the principles of probability, such as the probability of stronger traits enduring longer than weaker traits. Survival of the fittest. What has been observed, microevolution, must be more than mere chance, right? It makes some sense, until you consider that in order to say what is probable, you must have an idea of what the different possible outcomes could be. To My knowledge, no one has yet been able to provide those. It is like trying to guess with sufficient probability what number will come up on the throw of a die without knowing how many sides it has, and what numbers are on those sides.

There, in a nutshell, is mostly why I do not give much more creedence to the Theory of Evolution than I do to Creationsm. Of course, I think it probably still has a reasonable amount of maturing to do. It is based on some observation, which is a strength. Why disregard what you see, even if you cannot fully or correctly explain it? Also, while untested, I would not say it is untestable. Perhaps we just do not yet have the means of conducting such a test.


And, now, I am all ears.

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#246367 - 06/01/07 12:37 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Bill_M]
Discipline Offline
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I am not arguing in favor of what The Abysmal has stated, but mainstream science seems to keep alternative and contradicting material out of the public's sight or at least label it pseudo-science. This is usually done to maintain status quo, which is bad science in my opinion.

But anyways, on with the discussion.
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#246372 - 06/01/07 01:04 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheAbysmal]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Seems to me that you don't know much about evolution at all.

Gravity, for example, is a theory. It's not a law because it is impossible to make it fit the definition of a law, not because it is unproven.

macroevolution, is on very shakey ground

Exactly how is it on shaky ground? You make such a claim, but you don't seem to have any reason for thinking so.

Conversely, the evidence for macroevolution is overwhelming. The fact that what eventually becomes your ear canal is, in a human infant, almost identical to gills should tell you quite a lot about how evolution is able to manipulate body parts to new uses.

We've also witnessed species formation. As in, an entirely new species forming under our observation.

Until you're prepared to actually back this claim with evidence rather than just "it's shaky," it's impossible to answer much more completely. You have a lot of reading to do.

So what if it is not a law, right? Theories and theorums have seen great application without proof. The Pythagorean Theorum endured for time immemorial without a proof until recently. Recent proofs aside, it still had practical application, and you could reasonably expect to get an accurate answer, even if no one could prove how it worked.

You confuse mathematical theorems with scientific theories, which are not at all similar.

So tell me, what application has the theory of gravity had lately, other than astronomical observation? Sometimes the application is purely knowledge, but in the case of evolution this is also not the case. We've employed our knowledge of natural selection in medicine, since microorganisms are capable of evolving at a much faster rate than multicellular organisms.

Evolution seems, to Me, largely based on the principles of probability, such as the probability of stronger traits enduring longer than weaker traits. Survival of the fittest. What has been observed, microevolution, must be more than mere chance, right? It makes some sense, until you consider that in order to say what is probable, you must have an idea of what the different possible outcomes could be. To My knowledge, no one has yet been able to provide those. It is like trying to guess with sufficient probability what number will come up on the throw of a die without knowing how many sides it has, and what numbers are on those sides.

Have you read anything on evolution? You sincerely have no idea what you're talking about.

There are not "different possible outcomes." This isn't some driven force, it's a matter of trends in a mathematical system affected by outside (natural) influences, namely population pressures from environmental factors. Evolution doesn't have goals in mind at all.

I might also comment, the idea that microevolution is possible but macroevolution is not is pure ignorance. If microevolution is possible, then it absolutely follows that on a geologic timescale, the only timescale applicable to evolution, major evolutionary changes will eventually accumulate. That is in fact the crux of the matter; the only way you can rationally disbelieve evolution (using the term "rationally" loosely) is to disbelieve that we have genes and that said genes mutate.

In any system composed of random variables with a selective influence upon them (survival of the fittest, by the way, is a total misnomer as to the way evolution works) is bound to result in a predicted trend upon said system, aka evolution.

You can test it yourself, if you want proof. If you have programming knowledge, write a program to the following effect:

A list of 1000 random numbers is generated, with a set upper limit.

That list will then be wiped partially out, but with a scale enforced. For example, if your upper limit is 100,000, make it so that any number above 90,000 has a 90% probability of being carried over to the new list, 80,000 has a 80%, and so forth. You can generate any number of variants or innovative selective processes, but the only thing that matters is that you have some selective process.

With the selected numbers carried over, have the random number generator fill in the vacated slots.

Run this process repeatedly. Create a function that generates a "total sum" of all numbers on the list each time you run it.

You'll find that while numbers above 90,000 have only a 10% chance of being generated, with the carryover feature enabled to create a selective process, the total sum result of all the numbers on the list added together will rise each and every time you run the program, until you achieve a certain equilibrium which it does not rise above by any notable margin.

You can then, if you feel like it, create an entirely different means of selective carryover and apply it to this list, and watch the trend change once again.

This demonstrates conclusively that so long as genes are able to mutate, and there is any selective process in nature, you will find a trend in gene frequency.

Evolution, in case you didn't catch on, is just a change in gene frequency in a population.

If you have a reading list, as you claim, I suggest picking it up and reading it. I'd start with Richard Dawkins The Selfish Gene for an overview of modern genetic theory.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#246490 - 06/01/07 07:26 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheAbysmal]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Shooting dead fish in a barrel here, but I'm in a debate-y mood tonight. So here we go.

Evolutionary Theory is just that… a theory. It is not yet the Law of Evolution. It is not a scientific law because there is not sufficient evidence to support it as one.

You DO realize that there's no absolute standard for declaring something a "Law", don't you? It's just an informal way of referring to the mathematical parts of theories. The Law of Gravity is just an informal name for the theory of universal graviation. Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion are a subset of the same theory. The Ideal Gas Law is a mathematical consequence of the atomic theory of matter. The Inverse Square law is a straighforward bit of geometry that applies to (among other things) electromagnetic theory.

Or did you think there was a panel of scientist-judges out there debating whether to grant official "Law status" to, say, the photoelectric effect?

The microevolution side of the story, to Me, seems well enough founded, but the larger picture, macroevolution, is on very shakey ground.

False distinction. "Macroevolution" is simply "microevolution" proceeding over a longer time interval; the terms were invented by creationists to try to gloss over the fact that adaptation and speciation have been directly observed to occur -- in other words, everything that's also required (except sufficient time) for "macroevolution". It's like saying that you accept "microerosion", where a stream washes away the topsoil in one field (since we can see that happening all the time), but not in the "macroerosion" which created the Grand Canyon (since no one has ever seen a Grand Canyon form).

The Pythagorean Theorum endured for time immemorial without a proof until recently.

Funny. I guess the half-dozen different proofs known to the ancient Greeks, ancient Chinese, ancient Persians, and ancient Egyptians were just figments of my History of Mathematics professor's imagination.

Einstein's infamous Theories of Relativity, still unproven (unless that has also changed recently)

Let's flip a coin and pick General Relativity to defend. First of all, it neatly solved the anomalous perihelion progression that had been observed happening to the planet Mercury. It predicted (precisely!) the gravitational bending of light, which has been directly observed in everything from deflection of background stars during solar eclipses to Einstein Rings around distant quasars. Frame dragging is another consequence, one that has been indirectly detected around black holes (which are themselves another prediction of General Relativity), plus there's a satellite in orbit right now trying to detect it directly. These are just some of the most well-known and obvious proofs; I could go on all day about things like how my colleagues at Fermilab have to account for Special Relativity when the particles in the Tevatron are doing better than 0.9999 c. But I trust my point is made -- these "infamous" and "unproven" theories are some of the best-tested and most-strongly-confirmed pieces of science in human history.

Where is the practical application of the Theory of Evolution? So far as I have been able to tell, the Theory of Evolution still remains unapplied

So... the heliocentric theory of the solar system was invalid until the invention of interplanetary probes? It would surely have disappointed Copernicus to know that he would be wrong for the next four centuries, even if he would then spring instantly into full-blown correctness once a direct and practical application was invented.

Evolution seems, to Me, largely based on the principles of probability

Yup. So is quantum mechanics. And big parts of chemistry. And other chunks of biology. Plus of course all of the statistical sciences, like epidemiology and population dynamics. And bunches of others. Um, what exactly was the problem here, again...?

It makes some sense, until you consider that in order to say what is probable, you must have an idea of what the different possible outcomes could be. To My knowledge, no one has yet been able to provide those.

We don't know every possible planetary system that could ever form. Therefore, planetary formation didn't happen. (...What?)

There, in a nutshell, is mostly why I do not give much more creedence to the Theory of Evolution than I do to Creationsm.

Oh, okay then. It's because you don't know a damned thing about science. I get you now. ;\)

Now, scientists are indeed fallible. Widely-accepted and well-supported theories have fallen in the past and may well fall in the future. For all we know, evolution could be conclusively disproven tomorrow. But not by any of this stuff here, which I could refer to most charitably as "misinformed".

-Chess


Edited by Chess (06/02/07 02:01 AM)
Edit Reason: Fixed a typo.

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#246509 - 06/01/07 11:09 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TheAbysmal Offline


Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 1017
Clearly you and Chess are far better informed on the subject. Far better equipped to debate it by that virtue, and quite passionately in My opinion, if I may add.

It piques My interest to look into the subject more deeply. I love learning, and if My perspective is indeed as flawed as you both show, so much more a reason to look. Thank you for that.

It also makes Me want to leave this debate with My dignity intact while I can. Singed, not scathed...

I will go ahead and pick up some more books on the subject. I have, in truth, read on subject. It occurs to Me that what I have read may be biased or inaccurate, or I did not fully get it. Actually, I happen to be reading a book right now that, minimally at least, touches on the subject: Ray Kurzweil's The Age of Spiritual Machines, which I have enjoyed so far, and two other of his books. I will go ahead and throw The Selfish Gene on the list, too.

UPDATE: Ordered The Selfish Gene on Amazon for about $8. Grabbed the God Delusion, too.

Also, next time I will take care to have My ducks in row before I take a shot at one of the masters, even in jest.


Edited by The Abysmal (06/02/07 12:39 AM)
Edit Reason: Put My money where My mouth is
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#246514 - 06/01/07 11:34 PM A good book on this issue. [Re: Discipline]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12416
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Tangled Minds by Dean Radin is not only an excellent examination of this phenomena but also is hands-down one of the best summaries with regard to the evidence for psi phenomena I have seen between two covers.

I do not recall that he says anything about evolution however. ;\)
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#246534 - 06/02/07 01:52 AM Re: A good book on this issue. [Re: Nemo]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Thank you for the book suggestion, Magister.

I know you have discussed this elsewhere in further detail. I have come to the conclusion that evolution is fairly accurate. Yet, there are gaps in certain areas that are not noticed by most in the mainstream. These gaps that I have been picking up don't refute evolution but definitely give me pause as to what might have happened. I am sure you already know what I am speaking about.

It is sad that being a full time science student doesn't allow me the luxury to fully pursue these ideas of mine.
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#246598 - 06/02/07 01:40 PM Re: "the truth" [Re: Discipline]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12416
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The nice thing about our religion is that we do not have to know "the truth".

We do not have to know whether the current views on evolution, devolution, creationism, or Big-Juju-Is-Fooling-All-Of-Us-ism (or any other -ism for that matter) are "right" or not.

As Satanists we only really look at whether a view is somehow useful or not.

The rest is for intellectual fun.

If discovering the origins of life in general or human beings in particular could be useful then we will tend to go with the best information we know about.

If not, it can still be fun to speculate and dig for evidence.

The Satanist is a God who does not lay claim to omniscience.

But you already knew all that.

I just like repeating it sometimes! ;\)
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#246637 - 06/02/07 04:58 PM Re: "the truth" [Re: Nemo]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>As Satanists we only really look at whether a view is somehow useful or not.

Exactly. Most of my time fooling around with electricity and alternative ideas on that subject is in the effort to someday apply them to something useful. Of course I may never get around to doing that or even get the chance, but in my opinion it is worth it.

>>The rest is for intellectual fun.

Indeed. I am not a biologist and anything that has to do with evolution really has no real point in my career choice. But I find it intriguing and I am curious as how the pieces of the puzzle fit. It is purely entertainment for me and that is why I don't get emotional about people who are pro or against evolution.

Feel free to repeat it when you have the urge. It never hurts to hear it every once in a while.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

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#246644 - 06/02/07 06:03 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheAbysmal]
Marianne Offline


Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 29
Loc: N.Ireland


<>

My comments I made that 'aliens' would be better not coming near us were not made in humour....I was being serious.

M
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#247605 - 06/08/07 01:32 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Sophia Moritz Offline


Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Brazil
I believe that there are extra-terrestrial life, but intelligent? Maybe ... in other Galaxies! But micro organisms it's proved there are.
However, last week, my father showed me some photos of a strange object in Capitola - California. A family take these images:




It can be fake, but it's too strange!
The url it's http://z001.ig.com.br/ig/51/24/122072/blig/area51/


Edited by Mary Killer (06/08/07 01:35 PM)

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#247607 - 06/08/07 01:40 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Sophia Moritz]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Interesting.

Hrmmmmmmmmmm.

It is strange Mary, I'll give you that. Seems to appear as English writing however........

Could be our damned government experimenting AGAIN. Who knows eh?

I KNOW that undead gods exist......soooooooooo hmmmmmmmmmm.
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#247609 - 06/08/07 01:48 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Sophia Moritz]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
If these photos were taken in in Capitola California why is the document stamped "Area 51"

Could it simply be some sort of marketing strategy? \:\/

FOR: \:\/
Roswell’s Upcoming Alien Theme Park
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#247611 - 06/08/07 01:51 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: gypsy]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Lol!

Back to the candy.......

Remember flying saucers?

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#247613 - 06/08/07 01:55 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Evil_Eve]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
Yes, yes I do. I love the texture of those things. ;\)
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#247614 - 06/08/07 01:56 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: gypsy]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
\:\) Me too.
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#247632 - 06/08/07 03:37 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Sophia Moritz]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
I believe that there are extra-terrestrial life, but intelligent? Maybe ... in other Galaxies! But micro organisms it's proved there are.


News to me. The ALH84001 data has remained maddeningly inconclusive, and (Fred Hoyle's speculations aside) there isn't much else in the way of available evidence. Care to back this up?

-Chess

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#247718 - 06/09/07 06:12 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: TheNaturalForce]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10098
Interesting point brought up by Richard Dawkins:

If we make an arbitrary chance of life arising on any given planet, even if we make it extraordinarily high, it will stilly almost certainly result in many planets with life on them.

Let's use Dawkins guess that 1 in 1 billion planets are capable of harboring life. That's pretty slim odds of any given planet having life on it, enough to satisfy even conservative estimates.

Astronomers calculate that between all planets in all galaxies, there are at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the universe. That's one billion billion, conservative estimate.

That means that there would be, using the above figures, roughly a billion planets with life on them in the universe.

Almost no matter what odds you use, you will find that astronomical figures produce surprising results.

The real question then is not "is there life out there" but "is it anywhere that we'll ever know about it?" Remember, the vast majority of the billion billion planets roughly estimated to exist in the universe are in other galaxies and therefore nowhere even vaguely within reach of earth. Even planets in our own galaxy are mostly well without our reach even at the speed of light.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#247771 - 06/09/07 01:40 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: gypsy]
Sophia Moritz Offline


Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Brazil
Hey Gypsy!
"Area 51" it's the name of the website created here in Brazil to discuss about U.F.O.s. \:\)

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#247773 - 06/09/07 01:48 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Evil_Eve]
Sophia Moritz Offline


Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Brazil
I won't be surprise if it was some machine from the Government or people. I've just think the picture of that "thing" was interesting ... I had my doubts about extra terrestrial life!
English? You have a good vision, mine is bad nowadays \:\)

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#247774 - 06/09/07 01:49 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Svengali]
Sophia Moritz Offline


Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Brazil
This photo make me cry ... It's incredible what people can do with themselves ... if he is really a human being.

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#247863 - 06/10/07 02:24 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: gypsy]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11465
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: gypsy
Yes, yes I do. I love the texture of those things. ;\)


My mother really loves those candies. Probably because she's Catholic and they resemble the eucharist. Hard to find, though.
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#247891 - 06/10/07 08:44 AM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: Bill_M]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
 Quote:
My mother really loves those candies. Probably because she's Catholic and they resemble the eucharist. Hard to find, though.


Oh shit! Yes, yes they do. I had never thought of it, but you are right. They kind of melt in your mouth just like the Eucharist. Just add a little wine and there you go..Holy Communion!
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#247920 - 06/10/07 01:24 PM Re: ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence [Re: gypsy]
Thaumaturge Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 1802
Loc: Delaware
The gov wouldn't stamp the Area 51, they would say "Groom Lake" area 51 is not an official report location. they would use the Groom lake facility 51 or just Groom lake!

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