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#24349 - 02/03/04 06:52 PM Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen
GoldenCalf Offline

Registered: 12/03/03
Posts: 93
Loc: Huntsville, Alabama
Do you feel that Satanism requires a belief in the supernatural in any way? Certainly there is nothing in the 9 Satanic Statements that says so, nor is there in the Books of Satan and Lucifer. However, it is obvious that Anton LaVey believed in and used magic, and fully half of TSB is dedicated to the ritual and magical aspect of Satanism. Then again, the 7th Satanic Rule of the Earth says that you should acknowledge the power of magic IF you have used it successfully to obtain your desires.

So, could someone who lives and enjoys his life on his own terms and respects what Satan represents as per the 9 Satanic Statements and lives accordingly, but has no belief in the supernatural and smiles inwardly at talk of magic and the unseen, could/would this person be considered a Satanist? Because if the consensus is that magic is an integral part of Satanic belief, then I may have to reject the title of Satanist.
"I am elite because I am not on welfare. I am elite because I ritually sacrificed my television set and bombed a McDonald's. I am perfect. I'm the REAL Satanist here, and you're just a useless pathetic piece of shit herdling. You disgust me." --the hopelessly ego-deprived jackass

#24350 - 02/03/04 07:05 PM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
Magic IS an integral part of being a Satanist. It is not a naive superstition. It is a pragmatic, results-oriented activity. Your skepticism is a very useful tool but why not put that aside and try some rituals. Can't hurt and you might just be surprised by what happens.

#24351 - 02/03/04 07:06 PM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
CPayne Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 984
Loc: Fargo,, it's not l...
If science of the present was the magic of the past, wouldn't it stand to reason that magic of the present is the science of the future?

#24352 - 02/03/04 07:52 PM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
J. Hagalaz Offline

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
Magic is not a "supernatural" thing. I think all humans utilize magic whether they realize it or not. I think most Satanists practice magic because they have a natural desire to so.

If you don't have the desire to practice magic yet are still a satisfied person who enjoys their life then who cares what somebody would lable you? Live! That's what it's all about.
They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

#24353 - 02/03/04 07:55 PM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
The Satanic Bible says, at the very least, that the essence of lesser magic is getting people to do what you want, and the essence of greater magic is psychodrama, whereby you change yourself in order to change the world.

Doesn't sound so bad to me.

#24354 - 02/03/04 08:14 PM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
MagisterParadise Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 3275
Loc: Burlington, VT
3 Feb XXXIX A.S.


Because if the consensus is that magic is an integral part of Satanic belief, then I may have to reject the title of Satanist.

Understanding my answer to this requires that you know that magic comes in both Lesser and Greater forms. I'll assume you've read up on this and know it, so...

If we step away from Lesser Magic and simply talk about Greater Magic, then the answer to your query is no. Greater Magic -- that is, ritual magic -- is there if you want it. If you don't, then toss it aside. Unlike many aspects that define what a Satanist is, feeling you have to engage in ritual practice -- a compulsion, mind you -- is not one of them. I know plenty of Satanists for whom ritual hasn't even the slightest bit of interest -- many of whom are Church of Satan members, as well as certain members of the hierarchy. And, sometimes, an over-interest in it can point to a pseudo-Satanist, or even what we'd called a "First Phase" type (which you can read up on if you do your homework).
Ever Forward!
Magister Matt G. Paradise - Church of Satan

Purging Talon | Bearing The Devil's Mark @ Amazon | The Book of Satanic Quotations @ Amazon

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"The world isn't black and white. It's grayscale" - Steve Wozniak

#24355 - 02/03/04 08:45 PM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
Quaark Offline

CoS Reverend

Registered: 08/22/03
Posts: 8898

Because if the consensus is that magic is an integral part of Satanic belief, then I may have to reject the title of Satanist


What I want to say is semantically delicate, and I expect an idiot or two to miss my point.

The word "Satanism" was carefully and brilliantly chosen, for many good reasons. Personally, I have never for an instant believed in a literal Satan. So, upon approaching Satanism, and before understanding the reasons WHY the word/symbol "Satan" was chosen, I smugly and incorrectly assumed that Satanists must be the world-record dumbest motherfuckers walking the face of the Earth.

Why? Because I knew that as there is no God, there doubly could be no Satan. Thus, anyone worshipping a doubly non-existent myth had to be even dumber than the already stupendously dumb people who believed in a God.

What happened though, is that I am hopelessly curious about everything, and won't lose interest until I have thoroughly studied and understood something. Satanism, sounding like a fun thing to add to my list of things I'm superior to, went under my microscope.

Lo! To my amazement, the word "Satanism" turned into a shimmering yet strong as steel gateway, on the other side of which was the very thing I had been at my core all along.

The word keeps out two groups very effectively.

1. Superstitious cowards.
2. Smugly superior intellectuals without sufficient curiosity to look just a little deeper.

I've never been superstitious or a coward, and although I have been accused of being both smug and intellectual, my burning thirst for a truth that is USEFUL, (with the indispensable tool of doubt leading the attack), effectively corrodes my smugness when confronted with something new, at which point my intellect re-aligns with the new information.

I loathe unscientific superstitious garbage. Although I saw that the choice of the word "Satan" was brilliant right away, and perfect in every way, it took me somewhat aback to find my nice new religion infected with this crap, "magic".

What the fuck is this? MAGIC? Gimme a fuckin' break already!

So, I am not at all unfamiliar with the specific questions you raise.

Now, here comes the semantically delicate part.

Satanism is a religion, but a literal Satan plays no part in it, except symbolically and for fun, satire, mischief, etc.

Likewise, the word "magic" can be misleading at first. It has to examined in the context of how it is defined by Satanism, and not from preconceptions found elsewhere.

"Lesser Magic" is simply effective psychological manipulation of others. I take it you understand this and have no problem with it.

"Greater Magic" is where it gets tricky and subtle.

There IS NO SUCH THING AS MAGIC OF COURSE. We both know that right?

However, there ARE real-world results that derive from performing certain actions, that science circa 2004 is as yet unable to define or explain.

The combination of these actions and the results derived from them, are referred to as "Greater Magic" by the religion of Satanism.

"Magic", defined rigorously this way, has produced real results in MY life, and I acknowledge this freely.

So, here's a non-paradox for you.

I do NOT "believe in magic", and never will, (my world-view is hyper-scientific if anything), yet I "perform" magic (emphasis on "perform!) with satisfying results.

You've gotten past the "Satanism" barrier. Congrats on that! Now, another test of intelligence.

Examine the question of what relevance the choice of the word "magic" may have to keeping the unworthy away from something the unworthy do not deserve to have.

#24356 - 02/03/04 10:00 PM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
Mr_Atrox Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 1817
Loc: Lycopolis
Satanism does not require a belief in anything, save the faith one should inherently possess concerning one's natural abilities. The word supernatural(emphasis on 'super') loses meaning within the context of Satanism. It simply cannot exist there and the reason is quite simple. It implies the existence of something and that something usually requires a blind(ignorant acceptance) belief of one sort or another. If there is no Satan and God does not exist(or any gods for that matter)then, it follows, that all observable phenomenon are merely extensions of our 'normal'(natural) world. An useen world peopled by 'supernatural' beings,occurences,and all such pertinent nonsense have only continued to exist because the human brain has yet to evolve past this stage in our progression. That progression will happen, it isn't a question of IF. The word magic,or more specifically the term Greater Magic, is just another handle with which to grasp at an obscure part of our natures that 'feels' unknowable. It can readily be explained away as pragmatic,emotional catharsis, and if that suits it's user's purpose then more power to them, for it can certainly be a useful tool along that aspect. However, my personal opinion is that that notion can be rather limiting. The source: who you see in the mirror. The possibilities are either there or not dependant upon that same individual. Sound like alot of magical nonsense? Sure, why not?
One final comment:Magicians might be more in need of a belief in magic than Satanists. In either case taste and enjoy your own aesthetics, but beware the illusionist.
"If you wanna hurt me, you're gonna have to earn it motherfucker."
-Mickey Rourke

#24357 - 02/03/04 11:39 PM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: J. Hagalaz]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 11549'00"W 3714'00"N
I like this answer very much.

We are the Gods of this world.

Its our choice.

I hate it when people try to convince me that there's some sort of "system" that is supposed to make it all happen, or some book, or some particular practice.

It is absolutely our choice, through and through. We are the Masters and the Source, and can choose any magic we want or no magic at all.

It doesn't matter what that choice is, if we ourselves are "the Source".
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

#24358 - 02/04/04 12:12 AM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
However, it is obvious that Anton LaVey believed in and used magic

I don't think he "bleieved" in the power of Magic any more than you "believe" in the computer screen that you are reading these words off of.

He knew it was an effective tool.

One does not have to utilize Greater Magic in order to be a Satanist any more than one must utilize a paintbrush to be an artist.

An artist has a number of different tools at his disposal. So does the Satanist.
Believe Nothing, Test Everything

"Well done is better than well said"

- Benjamin Franklin

#24359 - 02/04/04 03:51 AM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
Josephine007 Offline
CoS Priestess

Registered: 01/31/04
Posts: 620
Loc: Zero Point Field
Because if the consensus is that magic is an integral part of Satanic belief, then I may have to reject the title of Satanist.

I think alot of this depends on HOW you define supernatural.

I was a physics major in college and have such a skeptical mind that my husband calls me Scully as a nickname.

But I also have worked successfully (very I might add) with magic. Once you understand how magic works and how to make it work for you, it is no longer 'super'natural, just natural.

Based on my own experience, I would not let a trivial thing such as this be a significant issue.
Josephine Seven
Cherchez La Femme
"Test Everything. Believe nothing."

#24360 - 02/04/04 04:20 AM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: GoldenCalf]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10593
Loc: Homeless drifter.
I think along the same lines as a number of people have already stipulated, that it really depends upon how you wish to look at it.

I do not hold with any of the holographic universe claptrap and simply hold that it is a mechanical process. Even if we cannot completely explain the mechanism, there does indeed appear to be some sort of domino effect which can be set in motion due to the fact that results have proven this. I do not see it as supernatural; more as a natural, though largely unexplainable, aspect of the carnal realm.

All humans practice lesser magic. The Satanist's heightened awareness and more conscious application of this aspect of magic is a sure key to greater success than the herdlings.

Ritual magic is there if you wish to employ it, or if you simply enjoy it. Ritual magic is not an absolute prerequisite. But it can be fun, and I think due to the nature of the human mind, it does help focus one's will and determination. But as The Satanic Bible indicates, you cannot perform it and then sit on your arse - you must take steps to compliment your ritual in the real world.
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

#24361 - 02/04/04 06:49 AM Belief? [Re: GoldenCalf]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12664
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...

Because if the consensus is that magic is an integral part of Satanic belief, then I may have to reject the title of Satanist.

There are no Satanic "beliefs".

But there is magic.

So what should that tell you about the nature of magic?


#24362 - 02/04/04 08:17 AM (hypothetical dialogue between three great minds) [Re: GoldenCalf]
Kurgan Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 2441
Loc: Land of the Midnight Sun
Newton: "Magic is energy."
Huygens: "No, magic is psychology."
LaVey: "Correct."
[color:"white"]In Ferro Veritas[/color]

#24363 - 02/04/04 09:22 AM Re: Skepticism, materialism, and the unseen [Re: CPayne]


If science of the present was the magic of the past, wouldn't it stand to reason that magic of the present is the science of the future?

But where would that leave you and I? Beings who somewhat rely on the fact that not everyone has the knowledge that we possess...? I think it would make the playground a bit tougher to manipulate. Then again, there will always be a heard for the stalking.

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