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#261698 - 08/03/07 07:59 AM Satanism and Laws
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Are you out there asking yourself:

1. If I am my own god, why should I abide by someone else's rules?
2. If I rule my life, who cares what a king, president, monarch, militant dictator, congressman, judge, or police officer thinks?
3. How are Satanists supposed to rule the world in the face of adversity if we do not break some laws to put ourselves in power?
4. Why can't I get high?


Well... I have my answers.

1.
The person and people who make the laws they expect you to abide by nearly always provide you with services in return for your obedience. If their services seem disproportionate to their "hindrance on your life style" then get up and leave. If total anarchy is your thing, one word: Antarctica. If you enjoy the subtle comforts in life, however, you had better get used to following someone else' rules until you can either become the law maker or buy your own country in the South Pacific. Yes, "paying taxes sucks" but having paved roads, sanitary water, and electricity certainly does not "suck."

2.
Simply put: When a person has the power to end your life it is masochistic not to listen to them.

From 25th Hour (regarding sexual appeal percentile):
 Quote:

Jacob Elinsky: So what's Monty?

Frank Slaughtery: Let's see.

Monty's going to prison.

He's a doughnut --
big, fat zero.


3.
Satanists are not supposed to rule the world, at least not publicly. Satanists are Satanists without going to any building, reading any books, or carrying any baphomet. We exhibit our religion every day in every action without thinking twice about what some book says, or what some religious leader thinks. There is no reason or circumstance under which a person must declare themselves a Satanist publicly. Furthermore, there is no reason for any sort of Satanic political movement. In the US, we are not being oppressed, we are not being beaten, our religion is not illegal. Furthermore, claiming to be a Satanist does not excuse destructive behavior under the banner of religious freedom just as hanging pagans does not fall under the religious freedom banner for Christians.

4.
You can't get high because it's illogical and illegal. Drugs destroy minds. Drugs destroy families. Drugs destroy potential. But if you do those things to yourself and loved ones - I do not care. However you are not a Satanist. Satanists do not destroy themselves while trying to avoid reality.

Furthermore, the drug trade supports hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in destroying families and neighborhoods. Drug dealers may be some damn fine entrepreneurs but they support corruption of the legal system which provides me with general safety and well being. Buying illegal substances pays for others to not only kill you but thousands of other people. If only one of those persons is completely innocent you have aided in murder - I wish my government would treat drug users as such.

Finally the argument that "it's just a little pot" has no logical backing. It goes like this:
But Mr. Satanist, pot shouldn't even be illegal.
Why?
Because I don't hurt anyone else if I use drugs. Ever see someone get high and beat their kids? No! It calms people down. It's a victim-less crime. Nothing like drunk driving, or alcohol abuse.
You destroy yourself.
Should that be illegal?

The answer does not matter. Drug use and trade is self-destructive. Self-destruction is unSatanic.

No amount of large words or over-extended vocabulary can smear blunt fact.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#261717 - 08/03/07 09:33 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
RaSc Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 484
Loc: PA
Damn good post, Drimlybunk.

 Quote:
1. If I am my own god, why should I abide by someone else's rules?


This seems to be a common question among younger posters on this board. I have read many answers, but perhaps my favorite is that being one's own god doesn't imply you are everyone's god. It's an easy concept, but the young mind seems to have difficulty understanding it. I gather that it follows the concept that teenagers already think they know it all. They pick up the Satanic Bible and proceed to select the choicest morsels of self-vindication.

Raymond

Hail Satan!

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#261723 - 08/03/07 10:01 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: RaSc]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
I think it is even more simple than that. An irresponsible god is no god at all. The god in the Bible was an irresponsible god (which is why he fails as a god), so a responsible god would have to be in complete opposition of that, hence the name "Satan".
_________________________
They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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#261729 - 08/03/07 10:06 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
Storm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/30/07
Posts: 567
Loc: West Valley, UT, USA
Some very good points here. Further, Thomas Jefferson noted that if "the people" possessed the ability to live without laws then they would have already been doing so hundreds of years prior to the formation of the US. "The people" as a whole need laws and rules.

 Quote:
1. If I am my own god, why should I abide by someone else's rules?

In many ways, as a Satanist, I don't believe that you do need to live by someone else's rules. However, we Do live by principles.

~Storm
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"The sleep of reason brings forth monsters."
~Francisco Goya

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#261731 - 08/03/07 10:13 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Storm]
Evil_Eve Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
It all boils down to this one line:

"Responsibility to the RESPONSIBLE".

Common sense is also a key factor in this issue.

Why should you abide by someone else's rules? Perhaps because being locked in a cage by breaking said rules doesn't tickle your fancy.

Remember the balance factor.

I don't agree with everything our Government says. Far from it. I do however have the sense to know that doing drugs is HARMFUL and if it's illegal (why chance it?).

Go by common sense first and then you may begin to realize why some laws are in order.

Without any type of law there would be anarchy.

You are your OWN god and I might not like the god you happen to be. Make sense?
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#261747 - 08/03/07 12:07 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Evil_Eve]
Tex_Talionis Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 420
Loc: Amarillo, TX
Bravo Dirmly, a decent retort the group of questions the losers ask searching for an excuse to continue being losers.
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#261755 - 08/03/07 12:43 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Drimlybunk...I enjoyed your post.

If I may, I would like to say this:

1) Any social interaction requires ground rules. I have them at home. I have them at work. We have them so that we may drive safely. There is no rational reason to object. Only a child would expect anything different.

2) In a sense...and only the mature can understand this...we are above the law. The law represents the bare necessities. We require more.

3) If any adult feels they have a valid reason a law should be overturned, there is legal recourse. That would involve time, study and cooperation. Three things the immature does not have.

Good post.
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#261774 - 08/03/07 02:06 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
Maqlu Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 1673
Excellent post, DrimlyBunk.

Whether any of those it is addressed to have enough functioning brain cells to comprehend it is another matter, of course, but you have certainly written well and as clearly as these points can possibly be made.

I think so much of this boils down to self-delusion: You tell the little twits what the consequences are but they never think it'll happen to them. Well, ask anyone in jail if they ever thought getting caught and incarcerated could happen to them. Ask any junkie shooting up in the alley with a dirty needle if they ever thought this would happen to them. Never. Hell, some of them deny it's happening to them now.

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#261967 - 08/03/07 11:36 PM About being God. [Re: Drimlybunk]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
This is where most people miss the boat on Satanism.

They think that being God means being totally powerful and unaccountable to anyone or anything.

I have an entire chapter in my book on this specific topic.

Being God in Satanism simply means choosing yourself to be the most important person in your world (as opposed to Jehovah, Jesus, or whatever).

It is critically important to remember that there are plenty of other Gods up the street who might just be able to kick your ass!

(Please pardon my crude speech).


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#261970 - 08/03/07 11:47 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Nemo]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
Everybody wants to be Zeus! ;\)
_________________________
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#261974 - 08/03/07 11:56 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
statementofnine Offline


Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 93
Loc: Portland, OR
Most of the "young ones" that post (briefly) to this board remind me of the "Christians" that I have encountered throughout my life. They take from the "good book" what suits them and discard the rest.

HS!

~9
_________________________
Everyone learns faster on fire.

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#261975 - 08/04/07 12:00 AM Re: About being God. [Re: Phineas]
Xaira Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 142
Loc: South Carolina
This is the exact reason I hate associating with other teenagers, and members of the herd in general. THey pick and choose what they want to hear and ignore the rest.

1. They assume the rules are just made to keep them from doing things. It basically boils down to what one of my former compatriots said one day.

"Why can't I steal? If they won't hide their stuff from me, they shoud expect it to be stolen."

Not five minutes later he was complaining about how someone had broken into his car and stolen his new stereo.

2. The idiotic pseudo-satanists I have run into have usualy claimed to be their own god without loking at the fact that all gods were not created equal. Thor was powerful, but not nearly as strong as Odin. Ares was a mighty god, but Zeus could take him down any day.

Suvival of the fittest applies to gods, too.
_________________________
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devilchili

"You have to know how to accept rejection and reject acceptance." - Ray Bradbury

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#261979 - 08/04/07 12:20 AM Re: About being God. [Re: Xaira]
Sigurthr Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 06/27/07
Posts: 184
Loc: U.P. of MI, USA
Indeed, a good way of explaining it to those that just don't get it is: "Just because you are YOUR god doesn't mean you are ANYONE ELSE's god". Unfortunately these types usually throw "Responsibility to the Responsible" out the window too.

I'm quite glad we Satanists are born and not made, perhaps it is just the elitist in me, but I'd hate to have to deal with half-assed wanna-be Satanists in training. Its bad enough as it is with them posing as the real deal and occasionally getting away with it.

Hail Stratification!
Ave Luciferi!
_________________________
"After an inferior man has been taught a doctrine of superiority he will remain as inferior as he was before his lesson. He will merely assume himself to be superior, and attempt to employ his recently learned tactics against his own kind, whom he will then consider his inferiors. With each inferior man enjoying what he considers his unique role, the entire bunch will be reduced to a pack of strutting, foppish, self-centered monkeys gamboling about on an island of ignorance. There they will play their games under the supervision of their keeper, who was and will always be a superior man."
-Magus Anton Szandor LaVey (The Devil's Notebook, "Diabolica")

Undefiled Wisdom
**Formerly known as "Romenadan"**

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#261982 - 08/04/07 12:36 AM Re: About being God. [Re: Sigurthr]
GildedLily Offline


Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Wet Coast, Canada
<Indeed, a good way of explaining it to those that just don't get it is: "Just because you are YOUR god doesn't mean you are ANYONE ELSE's god".>

It is a good way to explain it-but the truly, blindly self-obsessed will never get it. I am reminded of two skanks arguing outside a club I passed on my way to a Clutch show... "It's all about me" "No, ho, it's all about me" "NO BITCH it's all about ME". The obtuse are determined and proud to remain so.

We are all the centre of our own universes, indeed. Which makes flattery a tool and weapon of significance.

L
_________________________
In gardens, beauty is a by-product. The main business is sex and death. ~Sam Llewelyn

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#261984 - 08/04/07 12:42 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: statementofnine]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
By 'young ones' are you referring to immaturity? I ask because I certainly have been guilty of agism and have been repeatedly reminded here why it just doesn't fly. I've seen incredibely young, relatively speaking, members who have shown more understanding, maturity and intelligence than people twice their age. 'Kentucky Fried Satanism' (to quote roho ) seems to be something someone of any age is capable of practicing.
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

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#261987 - 08/04/07 12:45 AM Re: About being God. [Re: Nemo]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
 Originally Posted By: Nemo
This is where most people miss the boat on Satanism.

Being God in Satanism simply means choosing yourself to be the most important person in your world (as opposed to Jehovah, Jesus, or whatever).



In the past if I tried to explain the concept, people would ask, "How are you your own God? Did you create yourself?" It really illustrates the gap between the "normies" and us. Their idea of Godhood is so silly. Narrow. Keeps them from recognizing the things they put in positions of Godhood in their lives.
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#261989 - 08/04/07 01:02 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Shade]
statementofnine Offline


Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 93
Loc: Portland, OR
Shade,

Exactly. Physical age doesn't necessarily reflect mental maturity. I myself have been guilty of it at times.

As I always say, I'm 38, going on 18.

HS!

~9
_________________________
Everyone learns faster on fire.

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#262192 - 08/04/07 06:25 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Shade]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Indeed!

I skim the bottom of the literal age pool here at LttD.

With age comes experience.
With experience comes Wisdom.

Intelligence, however, seems to know no age.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#262194 - 08/04/07 06:36 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Nemo]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
 Quote:
It is critically important to remember that there are plenty of other Gods up the street who might just be able to kick your ass!


It seems even more important to recognize them early.

 Quote:
I have an entire chapter in my book on this specific topic.


I look forward to reading it.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#262205 - 08/04/07 08:13 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Nemo]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
(Please pardon my crude speech)


That will be forty Hail-Mary's and twelve Our-Father's.

I'm watching, mind you!

_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#262207 - 08/04/07 08:28 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Nemo]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I wonder if we might say that every person is, ultimately, their own God. Some recognize/admit that; others project themselves onto the great screen in the sky, in nature or even in Hell.
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#262221 - 08/04/07 09:17 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
 Quote:
I wonder if we might say that every person is, ultimately, their own God.


I disagree.

People who put others (or an other) before themselves are not controlling their own lives and are not their own gods. They are pawns.


Edited by Drimlybunk (08/04/07 09:17 PM)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#262223 - 08/04/07 09:23 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Drimlybunk]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Drimlybunk
 Quote:
I wonder if we might say that every person is, ultimately, their own God.


I disagree.

People who put others (or an other) before themselves are not controlling their own lives and are not their own gods. They are pawns.


I really meant “I wonder”. I am not arguing with what you said. I am following a thought, and am looking for input.

I find what you said of interest, and definitely helpful. Thank you.
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#262228 - 08/04/07 09:36 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
 Quote:
I really meant “I wonder”. I am not arguing with what you said. I am following a thought, and am looking for input.


I know... I was "inputting."

PS. Happy Birthday! Hope it was Diabolical.


Edited by Drimlybunk (08/04/07 09:37 PM)
Edit Reason: Happy Birthday Roho
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#262231 - 08/04/07 09:43 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Drimlybunk]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Drimlybunk
 Quote:
I wonder if we might say that every person is, ultimately, their own God.


I disagree.

People who put others (or an other) before themselves are not controlling their own lives and are not their own gods. They are pawns.


Here is where I am going with this.
You know how we talk about a masochist getting what he wants when we attack him...I am thinking of someone's need to be controled being fulfilled by a "demanding god".
This thought is still somewhat unformed. I wonder if someone without the need to be controlled would fall into that trap.
That is where I am trying to flesh the idea out. Could even a demanding god be a projection of their need...part of themselves?
Or...was that last cup of coffee one too many?
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#262234 - 08/04/07 09:44 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Drimlybunk]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Drimlybunk

PS. Happy Birthday! Hope it was Diabolical.



It was great! Thank you!
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#262236 - 08/04/07 09:46 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
 Originally Posted By: roho_the_rooster
 Originally Posted By: Drimlybunk

PS. Happy Birthday! Hope it was Diabolical.



It was great! Thank you!


Excellent!
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#262239 - 08/04/07 09:56 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
I would make a distinction between the masochist who knows that helping others to his own (apparent) detriment satisfies him and the masochist who truly destroys themself.

Being a God comes from control. If a person allows others (even invisible, ambiguous, arbitrary others) to control them they are not behaving as a God but as a disciple.

[I am not talking about listening to your boss because he is your boss, I am talking about choosing which boss you will work for. I can not control the tasks my employer might have me do or the obligations my country may require me to fill. I can, however, decide which career I want to follow, who I want my boss to be, and which country I will fill obligations for. The pawns I mentioned earlier, do not allow themselves these choices and simple do as they are told by whoever tells them first, or more convincingly.]
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#262244 - 08/04/07 10:07 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Drimlybunk]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I am probably trying to look for a unique perspective that is not legitimate.

Thank you for your input. You have been helpful.
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#262245 - 08/04/07 10:08 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
If you come up with a more coherent position please don't hesitate to share it. Even if only by PM. I am still a little foggy on your position.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#262247 - 08/04/07 10:11 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Drimlybunk]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Drimlybunk
If you come up with a more coherent position please don't hesitate to share it. Even if only by PM. I am still a little foggy on your position.


Me, too.
That is why I thre it out there.
I will take you up on your offer...should the fog lift.
Thanks.
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"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#262316 - 08/05/07 01:37 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
Focalor Offline


Registered: 12/11/04
Posts: 392
It goes without saying that the drug use debate in these forums has been a horse which has been beaten into a pile of messy goo long ago.

And so, I'll put my views in terms which apply to everyone, becuase the laws do apply to EVERYONE.

With any action, there is always going be evidence left of that action. There will be a way to trace the action back to whoever caused it. The smart man knows this, and consequently does nothing to harm himself by his actions being discovered - actions which are done under the cover of darkness (...morning will come and the footprints will be seen). He's smart, so he can find a way to obtain what he wants in a reasonable manner. If what he wants is contrary to the law, chances are he is not a reasonable man. Chances are very good that he is a stupid man.

I agree with all you have said other than your usage of "unSatanic". I simply think that breaking laws in general is plain old unreasonable and stupid.

Breaking laws results in either death, incarceration, or fines. All of these are imposed as a means to hinder your advancement in life and your happiness. It is stupid to make a choice that you KNOW can result in your unhappiness. Criminals are stupid, period.

But from a Satanic stance...

...obviously the same thing applies. Being stupid is not to be condoned. Using the excuse of breaking from a tradition of herd conformity cannot be tolerated. In the vein of drug usage (pun intended), I believe that it would be considered more herd-like to accept the convenient lie that marijuana is harmless. Yeah right, and you're also supposed to believe that Satanists kill chickens and paint themselves with the blood in rituals. You're stupid if you believe that smoking marijuana benefits you, period. You're stupid if you believe that you are justified to break the law for any reason. The consequences justify following the law. That doesn't mean that all laws are always going to be completely fair for everyone, but you can bitch about how unfair it is from a jail cell while I'm sitting at home.
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#265249 - 08/16/07 10:19 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
I think I agree with most of your theory of law. Law is essential to solving collective-action problems and creating wealth and its fruits (science etc.). Without taxation, no one will step forward to pay the policeman's salary. Without the property rights created and protected by laws, no one would plant, because thieves would be just as likely as he to reap. Etc. We're both down with Hobbes.

On drugs, though, we differ. If a drug is inherently relatively innocuous, a marijuana and caffeine seem to be, it's far from obvious that someone's using it is a legitimate concern of the state.

First, the social destructiveness of the drug trade can't justify the exercise of police power in question, because that exercise of power is in large part the cause of the trade's destructiveness. That is, if the state did not criminalize the use of marijuana, there would not be an illicit market in it, or the violence that surrounds such markets. (Recall our country's interesting experience with alcohol prohibition.)

If the state DID criminalize the use of caffeine, on the other hand, I guarantee at least one participant in the illicit market, and I might get violent, too. That's right--my name is Helian and I'm a drug addict. As for being destructive to the individual, a neutral look at this issue requires separating effects of criminalization (such as people being in prison) from inherent effects of use. I have no evidence that marijuana destroys minds. Certainly it has found favor among some very high-achieving people, and my acquaintance with some of them is hard to reconcile with the government line. Rising to the more general assertion about drug use being self-destructive and unSatanic, let me cite myself as a counterexample. I'm a hardcore caffeine junkie, would continue to use coffee if it were criminalized, and am anything but destroyed. I consider it a mind-nutrient. I'm aware that it is addictive. To my ear, that is an alternative way of saying that it is soooooo good.

Addiction in the pejorative sense is destructive by definition. I'm thinking of people abandoning friendships, goals, talents, values, and even family in pursuit of a drug or other compulsive behavior. When these people rob, swindle, etc. to raise money for whatever it is, we have to isolate and control them. The rest of us must take on the costs of caring for children they abandon etc., so we have a right to deter by punishment. But I'm not sure what social costs Carl Sagan was inflicting on us by smoking reefer, or what would have been deterred by putting him in prison for it. The case for punishment seems hard to make on the facts here.

There is nothing illogical about using a drug. Someone is being irrational if he values his family more than drugs but chooses drugs over his family, but I don't see how I am being irrational simply by assigning SOME value to using caffeine. I extend the same reasoning to my friends who prefer pot, because I can see no principle for a distinction. These are just not people to whom one could say with a straight face that their habit is "destroying" them.

Sodomy was illegal in many places in this country until a few years ago, often partly on grounds that it corrupts or destroys people who practice it. I believe that the rule of law is the foundation of civilized society, and I am a patriot with the highest pride in my own country's legal system, a towering achievement of the human mind, for all its flaws. But it does have flaws, and some of them are laws, and if someone had said to me on the occasion of my first blowjob, "But wait, isn't this illegal here?"--well, that would have been a knee-slapper. But it was illegal there, probably. Mea culpa. Was I tearing at the fabric of society and destroying myself? I like rock and roll, too--sue me. But please don't put me in jail.

I wish we could have a national dialog about drugs and government authority. If the exercise of authority is legitimate with respect to pot--if its harmful effects do raise a need for suppression by the state through its monopoly on authorized violence--then we surely must do the same for alcohol. Although belief in the rule of law means that the individual cannot pick and choose which laws to treat as legitimate exercises of state power, we have other values according to which lawbreakers are vindicated by later developments. It's hard to see how private and consensual sodomy ever wounded the state.

Independence of thought is a, or the, central satanic value. When a government engages in an unwinnable "war" against one substance arbitrarily, and the march of this war consists in ever wider reach for that government's authority over the individual, we need a dose, cup, or monster bonghit of skepticism. The rejection of abstinence in favor of indulgence is consistent with demanding that people act responsibly and with praising discipline and self-control. I love liberty more than I love any of the purported benefits of policing others' indulgences. In any case, if they are to be policed, the distinctions drawn by our criminal law of drugs do not stand up to rational scrutiny. Criticism of irrationality in the law is just as essential to the rule of law as obedience, because law unquestioned is power unbridled. As someone wittier than I put it, saying "my country, right or wrong" is like saying "my mother, drunk or sober." (And notice which drug he chose to symbolize the abandonment of reason and credibility.)

Sorry to ramble on, but your post was interesting and thought-provoking! And you know how people on caffeine are; they talk, talk, talk.... ; )

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#265268 - 08/17/07 12:27 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Spark Offline


Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 22
Loc: Australia
 Quote:
I have no evidence that marijuana destroys minds.

I have seen plenty of evidence that smoking pot is detrimental to the user and those around him\her. I have seen the damage it causes in friends, family and more importantly myself!

I took up smoking pot in junior high school, also took part in growing it and selling it (turns out I'm quite the farmer). It took awhile but after about 2years I began to realize the damage it was doing and the damage it had already done. My mental abilities were diminished, my emotions were erratic and dominantly aggresive & violent, I noticed a lack of inspiration and motivation for personal development, my physical abilities were diminished, relationships with friends were severed and worst of all, the negative effects it had on my immediate family.

The realization of what had been happening to my life came over me pretty quick, it was almost like an instant snap. I decided to rid my life of this filth. I immediately destroyed everything associated with it including a very valuable($$$wise) crop - I didn't salvage, save or sell anything - just destroyed it all.
I felt better for myself straight away and over time my mental\physical abilities recovered, relationships healed and my inspiration & motivation for personal development kept growing. I learnt alot from that experience, smoking marijuana is definitely mentally destructive. I have also witnessed the very same effects on friends and family who also smoke\smoked marijuana.

I do not even deem caffeine to be innocuous in regular large amounts, it can also have negative effects on physical and mental health. Smoking cigarettes is not illegal either(generally speaking), but I see it no different than smoking weed or snorting crack. It is counterproductive to the individual and society. I look down on people who don't look after themselves mentally and physically, that including obese people (the ones trying to sue McDonalds inparticular), cigarette smokers (the ones trying to sue tobacco companies inparticular) and drug addicts (the braindead ones living off government resources inparticular).

I believe that alot laws are in place to protect the weak & stupid from themselves, but even more are in place to protect the general population from the stupid. I for one wish that drug penalties\sentences were alot harsher in my country.

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#265275 - 08/17/07 01:22 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: Helian
I have no evidence that marijuana destroys minds.


Remember Bruce Lee?
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#265284 - 08/17/07 04:42 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Thats funny; nearly everyone I've ever known who smokes pot is a total loser.

If you can't tell the difference between pot and coffee in effect, you have a problem.

Also, you make the error of using pot as a soft example of "drugs" then go on to make categorical assertions about "drugs" as if there is no distinction between pot and crack, meth, or heroin.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265287 - 08/17/07 04:58 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
It is also an fallacy to over-extend the Volstead Act analogy.

Alcohol had social acceptance LONG before it was made illegal.

1919-1933 was also a very different social/historical setting.

No one knows what the consequences of legalizing drugs in the USA today would be because it has not happened, so to say it would be an improvement is pure speculation and an unwarranted assertion.

I think there is every reason to expect it would be a disaster.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265289 - 08/17/07 05:06 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Do you seriously equate sodomy and drug abuse?

That is the dumbest thing I've heard in awhile.

Which is worse:

1. driving after an hour of heavy drinking/drug abuse, or;

2. driving after an hour of heavy sodomy?

Give me a break
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265314 - 08/17/07 07:53 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
DarkApollyon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 581
Loc: Brighton, England
As far as I'm aware there has been plenty of research done on the detrimental effects of pot-smoking upon the mind - anyway just a quick look at yor average pothead should get the alarm bells ringing in any rational person.

There has recently been political debate here in the UK about whether maruijuana should be reclassified as a class B substance rather than the class C it currently holds (having been 'downgraded' a few years ago), a reclassification I would wholeheartedly agree with.

There is NOTHING Satanic about destroying your mind and body with drugs, legal or otherwise - even if marijuana was legalised tomorrow I wouldn't touch it, and would still judge those who did as losers!
_________________________
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#265324 - 08/17/07 08:27 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Thats funny; nearly everyone I've ever known who smokes pot is a total loser.


Of course that's assuming that nearly all of the non-losers you know don't smoke pot. ;\)

I've noticed that when judging people, you seem to put a great deal of emphasis on their actions. Given that and the fact that you are very clear about your opinions on all forms of drug use, I can't help but think it's possible that you might know a few pot users who you'd never suspect.

While I too find a person's action important when making judgments about them, I try to be very clear that I am much more concerned with their results. From what I hear, people also tend to be much less guarded around me than around you. As a result, and for the fact that a lot of people know I advocate legalization, some otherwise spectacular people have let it slip in my presence that they like to take a toke from time to time. I'm usually pretty straightforward about not approving of their actions, but as long as they're not church affiliates and it's not getting in the way of anything I have going on, it's not my problem.
_________________________
Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

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#265325 - 08/17/07 08:29 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
As a Satanist, while one certainly acknowledges that they are their own god, they certainly are not anyone else's god. The Satanist also realizes that his or her world exists within the confines of the society in which he or she lives, and that by not adhering to the rules and laws outlined in that world, they are subjecting themselves to having the rights over their own private "divine domain" taken away.

Anton LaVey used an excellent word to describe the notion of people that felt entitled to "do their own thing" regardless of the laws of society. That word is solipsism.
_________________________
Hail the Citizens of the Infernal Empire!
Hail Satan!
Magister David Harris
Host - Hate Speech Radio
http://www.hatespeechradio.com

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#265330 - 08/17/07 08:44 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: DarkApollyon]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
As far as I'm aware there has been plenty of research done on the detrimental effects of pot-smoking upon the mind


You're right, and the much of it shows so little in the way of cognitive impairment as to be statistically insignificant.

 Quote:
anyway just a quick look at yor average pothead should get the alarm bells ringing in any rational person.


So you can tell that someone smokes pot just by looking at them? That's a pretty neat trick. You'll have to teach me how to do that some time. ;\)
_________________________
Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

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#265338 - 08/17/07 09:16 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Virus9]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
Right -- inferences about "the average pothead" based on anecdotal evidence assumes that the people you know to be potheads are a representative sample--an obvious sampling error. If I gave anecdotes about the biggest potheads I know, they'd be about three men who all hold graduate degrees from prestigious universities in rigorous subjects and are successful in other areas of life as well (e.g. the most glorious attainment of all, being friends with me!). But anecdotes favoring either position are not science, or even social science. The only actual science I know of does not support the "pot makes you stupid" hypothesis either. A satanic mind is an open mind, with "the courage for an attack on one's convictions" (Nietzsche wrote that, I believe).

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#265343 - 08/17/07 09:18 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I am not "equating" the two. It's an argument by analogy. In other words, I analogize laws against sodomy to laws against recreational drug use as an example of why we don't always consider lawbreaking destructive. Driving drunk is very bad--but irrelevant, since alcohol is a legal drug.

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#265345 - 08/17/07 09:23 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
Your first sentence commits a sampling error, and your second and third both commit the straw man fallacy.

I don't see that I have made any error such as you describe. I didn't assert any generalizations about drugs that rely on there being no distinction between pot and crack. The point was in part that the actual distinctions between drugs (such as distinctions between their social costs) do not track the LEGAL distinctions made between them, so we can't equate lawbreaking behavior with self- or socially destructive behavior where drug use is concerned.

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#265348 - 08/17/07 09:28 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
"No one knows what the consequences of legalizing drugs in the USA today would be because it has not happened, so to say it would be an improvement is pure speculation and an unwarranted assertion."

And rounding out, we have argument ad ignorantum. Come on, if you're going to crusade against pot for making people dumb, you need to mind your logical hygiene. Any valid reasons for predictions about the effects of decriminalization would have to come from looking at places where it has happened. When you say "every reason," I suspect you mean: every speculation that harmonizes with what you wish to believe.

Obviously pot has social acceptance among some and is unacceptable among others--just like alcohol at the time in question.

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#265350 - 08/17/07 09:41 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
Since, as you say, pot has social acceptance, are you saying its ok to use? Does this apply to you also?
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#265353 - 08/17/07 09:47 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Phineas]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
That something is ok to do does not FOLLOW from widespread social acceptance of it. I think it's ok to use in places where it is legal, on grounds of autonomy of the individual, liberty of consciousness -- not just because a lot of people think it's ok.

In places where it is illegal, using it is not ok, but ONLY because it is illegal, so that using it violates the social contract -- not because of any inherent vice in using it.

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#265355 - 08/17/07 09:48 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Old_Pig]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
No... The kung fu guy? I'm as far from being an expert on him as possible. But again, anecdotes are not evidence.

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#265358 - 08/17/07 09:57 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
You state here that lawbreaking behavior doesn't equate to self or socially destructive behavior. But in the above post you state it does violate the social contract.

Which one is it then?
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#265359 - 08/17/07 09:58 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Spark]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
I don't doubt the conclusions you drew about your own life from your own experiences; I just am wary of generalizations. For every activity X you can find some person Y who turned X into a shit-storm and a Z for whom X was a life-enhancer. I know from my own acquaintances that not every user of pot becomes alienated, irresponsible, or mentally sluggish. Consider as an analogy the Internet. It's one of the most important developments in human history, with benefits too numerous and pervasive to describe. Yet I'm sure many of us read the story about that couple in Reno who let their children starve in filth while indulging their addiction to online games, Myspace, etc.

You're right about the law being there to protect us and the stupid from the stupid -- I think we just disagree about the legitimate scope of the law. In my country, harsh drug penalties have resulted in the largest per capita incarcerated population in the world, and a lot of wasted police resources. The law's way of tracking whether people look out for themselves or inflict costs on others is arbitrary -- severe punishments for activities whose most strident opponents have trouble finding any evidence of the asserted harm, and no restrictions on how many cheeseburgers Fatty can order (even though we know beyond doubt that the social costs of obesity are gigantic, almost as high as those of tobacco). I am NOT in favor of the liberty to free-ride or otherwise inflict costs on others, because of drugs, cheeseburgers, whatever.... I'm just questioning whether restrictions on liberty are being drawn arbitrarily, punishment meted out without sufficient reason.

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#265362 - 08/17/07 10:03 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Phineas]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
It's both. Not every breach of the social contract has social costs (is socially destructive) -- this is the point of the example of private sodomy. Obedience is part of the obligation created by social contract, so any misdemeanor is a violation of it, and I acknowledged elsewhere the threat to rule of law in picking and choosing which laws to obey.

If it is still unclear, just consider that not every breach of a literal contract is destructive to the contracting parties, either. You can't sue me for violating a contract we made unless there are DAMAGES. Indeed we have a notion of "efficient breach" -- occasions where breaching the contract is economically sound thing to do, where we as a society would want the bound party to breach. And of course it is easy to construct examples where we'd want someone to breach the social contract by breaking the law.

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#265363 - 08/17/07 10:06 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Helian
"No one knows what the consequences of legalizing drugs in the USA today would be because it has not happened, so to say it would be an improvement is pure speculation and an unwarranted assertion."

And rounding out, we have argument ad ignorantum. Come on, if you're going to crusade against pot for making people dumb, you need to mind your logical hygiene. Any valid reasons for predictions about the effects of decriminalization would have to come from looking at places where it has happened. When you say "every reason," I suspect you mean: every speculation that harmonizes with what you wish to believe.


Re-read my post that you actually quoted.

I said NO ONE KNOWS what the consequences of legalization would be one way or another.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265364 - 08/17/07 10:06 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
What you are saying then is that it is ok to use drugs even if they are illegal beacuse there may not be any social consequences as long as you are not caught?
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#265366 - 08/17/07 10:08 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Phineas]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
No -- I'm saying what I said, which was clear enough the first time. And I've already hogged this debate enough without any noticeable dialectical progress.

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#265367 - 08/17/07 10:10 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Helian
Your first sentence commits a sampling error, and your second and third both commit the straw man fallacy.

I don't see that I have made any error such as you describe. I didn't assert any generalizations about drugs that rely on there being no distinction between pot and crack. The point was in part that the actual distinctions between drugs (such as distinctions between their social costs) do not track the LEGAL distinctions made between them, so we can't equate lawbreaking behavior with self- or socially destructive behavior where drug use is concerned.


My first sentence was a statement of OPINION based on personal experience.

My second sentence was pointing out the absurdity of using caffine in this argument - which you did (and it is absurd).

In the post I was responding to you slid from discussing pot to making non-specific statements about "drugs."
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265369 - 08/17/07 10:11 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
No, you are not clear. You advocate drug use on the one hand, then you say it is not ok, then you talk in circles and construct all sorts of excuses for using, then say its not ok, then its probably harmless, etc.

Take a stance. I am asking you directly: Do you use drugs and do you advocate using them?
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#265370 - 08/17/07 10:12 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Helian
If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I am not "equating" the two. It's an argument by analogy. In other words, I analogize laws against sodomy to laws against recreational drug use as an example of why we don't always consider lawbreaking destructive. Driving drunk is very bad--but irrelevant, since alcohol is a legal drug.


Ok, I'll correct my wording: it is a flawed analogy.

In the USA driving drunk IS illegal.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265374 - 08/17/07 10:20 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Phineas]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
There are no circles in what I said. If it was not clear to you, I can't assume the problem is me. I already said I use caffeine and lots of it. If someone seems sluggish, I will probably advocate his trying coffee. I like a glass of wine, sometimes two. I have tried many other things, judiciously, including enough acid in high school to be "legally insane" according to the old wive's tale on that subject.

I neither advocate nor condemn the use of any particular drug by any particular person. I advocate responsibility, but also independence of mind. People should pursue the experiences that will enrich their lives and actualize their virtues and values (which may include curiosity), as long as they aren't inflicting costs on others.

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#265375 - 08/17/07 10:22 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
Your answer is crystal clear now.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#265376 - 08/17/07 10:23 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Virus9]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Virus9
Of course that's assuming that nearly all of the non-losers you know don't smoke pot. ;\)


Yes, but being a druggie adds to their special sleazebag aura.

 Quote:
I've noticed that when judging people, you seem to put a great deal of emphasis on their actions.


So you accept people who's actions are idiotic if their "intentions" are good?

I have a saying: "If you can't tell the difference between the toilet and the living room floor, don't come over to my house." ;\)

 Quote:
Given that and the fact that you are very clear about your opinions on all forms of drug use, I can't help but think it's possible that you might know a few pot users who you'd never suspect.


Its possible but irrelevant. I don't care if the dirtball who mows my lawn smokes pot, as long as he doesn't do it on my property.

It is also very possible that the people who don't think I know they use drugs are wrong.

 Quote:
From what I hear, people also tend to be much less guarded around me than around you. As a result, and for the fact that a lot of people know I advocate legalization, some otherwise spectacular people have let it slip in my presence that they like to take a toke from time to time. I'm usually pretty straightforward about not approving of their actions, but as long as they're not church affiliates and it's not getting in the way of anything I have going on, it's not my problem.


Yea, well, if I ever hit a human shortage maybe I'll lighten up.

In the meantime I see no reason to tolerate anything I don't like near my personal life.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265379 - 08/17/07 10:27 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Virus9]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
 Quote:
 Quote:

As far as I'm aware there has been plenty of research done on the detrimental effects of pot-smoking upon the mind



You're right, and the much of it shows so little in the way of cognitive impairment as to be statistically insignificant.


Then, please - since by current standards, we assume weed destroys minds, please provide evidence to the contrary. The burden of proof falls on the challenger.

I have an "anecdote" with a wide sampling - approximately 80 individuals. These people grew up in an inner suburb (Population 50,000 - very close to a city of 2 Million). I attended kindergarten with these 80 people and went to high school with them. I could stretch numbers to 500 (my senior class) or even 2000 (my high school) - but I won't, I will focus on people I knew for most of their lives. I saw these people daily for at least 10 years and I knew which ones smoked pot and which ones did not. I knew when they started using, and how heavily they used. Most importantly: I know how they acted, what their grades were, what their ambitions were, and how they viewed themselves BEFORE and AFTER they started and continued to smoke pot. I can say undoubtedly, the people who began smoking at the beginning of high-school or earlier became different individuals by the time I graduated, and they changed for the worse. Their ambitions became mundane, their wit became droll, and they found themselves with more legal and family problems than I would have predicted. Of the people who did not smoke pot, I observed a preservation of character and higher self imposed standards. For at least 80 individuals I grew up with - Smoking pot negatively affects behavior.



As for the Sodomy example:
Making a behavior illegal creates a choice between that behavior and the punishment for it. If you went through the process of thinking: "do I want a blow job if the punishment is a fine of $XXX.xx or jail time of XX?" you understand me. However, if you considered the consequences irrelevant because you *knew* you would never get caught, then you fall in my audience - the group with something to learn.


Edited by Drimlybunk (08/17/07 11:09 AM)
Edit Reason: Accounted for non-smokers in the group of 80.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#265407 - 08/17/07 11:50 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
So you accept people who's actions are idiotic if their "intentions" are good?


Who said anything about intentions?

Intentions have their place and actions count for something, but it is always results that matter first and foremost.

 Quote:

I have a saying: "If you can't tell the difference between the toilet and the living room floor, don't come over to my house."


Knowing the difference is meaningless if they still piss on the floor. It's all about results.

 Quote:
Yea, well, if I ever hit a human shortage maybe I'll lighten up.


You? Hit a human shortage? Is that even possible? ;\)
_________________________
Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

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#265410 - 08/17/07 12:27 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Virus9]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Virus9
 Quote:
So you accept people who's actions are idiotic if their "intentions" are good?


Who said anything about intentions?

Intentions have their place and actions count for something, but it is always results that matter first and foremost.


You questioned my making judgements based on actions.

What other than action is there to base a judgment on, other than "intention."

Results follow actions.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265459 - 08/17/07 05:26 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: Helian
No... The kung fu guy? I'm as far from being an expert on him as possible. But again, anecdotes are not evidence.


It is if it comes accompanied by an autopsy report.

Apparently the combination of cannabis and painkillers made a weird interaction that made his brain explode.

Of course, every pot head in the world blames the painkillers.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#265472 - 08/17/07 06:04 PM Re: About being God. [Re: Nemo]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
 Originally Posted By: Nemo


It is critically important to remember that there are plenty of other Gods up the street who might just be able to kick your ass!

(Please pardon my crude speech).



I like that quote and you're definitely hitting nails here!!!
_________________________
He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog.
||.TSB Page 33.||

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.
|| Benjamin Franklin ||

The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|| George Bernard ||



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#265476 - 08/17/07 06:38 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but whether it is legal or not, why would a Satanist choose to smoke pot? What about the magical implications; that is, the dilution of any magical potential? What about the fact that walking around in a drug induced trance makes you that much more susceptible to outside influence? It doesn’t matter how “strong willed’ you are. If you don’t think any of things I mentioned are relevant, then why are you here? Doctor LaVey made clear his stance on drugs in The Satanic Bible (p.101) and in The Satanic Witch as well. Legal or not, if you think drugs are ok "for some people" then you are clearly ignoring the larger picture. The Satanist is in control of, not controlled by. If you are on drugs, you are being controlled.
_________________________
They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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#265479 - 08/17/07 06:49 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Old_Pig]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
It is if it comes accompanied by an autopsy report.


While cannabis was found in his system the autopsy report concluded that the cause of death was brain swelling due to an abnormal hypersensitivity or allergic reaction to either aspirin or meprobamate.

I also ran a quick search for any reported drug interactions between cannabis and aspirin or cannabis and meprobamate. Granted the search wasn't especially thorough, but it seems that if such a combination was a likely cause of death there be more readily available information on it.

Unless you have access to more detailed reports, I don't see any reason to blame cannabis for Bruce Lee's death.
_________________________
Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

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#265486 - 08/17/07 07:26 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
CatlikeJoe Offline


Registered: 06/26/07
Posts: 191
Loc: Dominican Republic
 Originally Posted By: Helian
If it is still unclear, just consider that not every breach of a literal contract is destructive to the contracting parties, either. You can't sue me for violating a contract we made unless there are DAMAGES.


Well, social contracts come in all shapes and sizes. If you jump a fence and intrude in a crazy gun enthusiast hillbilies propertay, he will use you for target practice, no matter what you did or would do there.

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#265488 - 08/17/07 07:40 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
You questioned my making judgements based on actions.


Really? Where did I do that?

 Quote:
Results follow actions.


But not all actions produce their desired result.

I do think I see what you're getting at, though. Basically what you're saying is that an action is to be judged on the level of success achieved in obtaining the desired result. I don't necessarily disagree with that.

I could sit here and split hairs for the rest of the night, but I don't see that as being particularly productive.
_________________________
Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

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#265490 - 08/17/07 07:50 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Spark]
CatlikeJoe Offline


Registered: 06/26/07
Posts: 191
Loc: Dominican Republic
 Originally Posted By: Spark

I have seen plenty of evidence that smoking pot is detrimental to the user and those around him\her. I have seen the damage it causes in friends, family and more importantly myself!


I second this, although I have never had any on me.

As some have said it makes magic very hard to use since you are under the influence of it. Before I quit I was starting to suffer paranoia, luckily I was smart enough to know anything that went through my mind while I was high wasn't real... (I once thought god was trying to communicate with me \:o ).

The thing with marijuana is that it doesn’t have literally painful side effects like alcohol or other things (sodomy?). Someone with a major hangover will likely spend at least a few days without drinking. I find it lame the way some people find it fun when they drink so much they don't remember what happened.

I remember a pothead trying to get in front of a 5 hour line to pay something. After that he just walked away giggling and left the receipt (which he was going to need eventually).

I lost allot of respect for an ex-friend of mines when he once said that if he had an infinite supply of weed and a PS2 he wouldn't need anything else in his life.
I could imagine him... vegetating like a moth in front of a fluorescent screen.

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#265492 - 08/17/07 08:01 PM Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...

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#265495 - 08/17/07 08:07 PM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Nemo]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Cuts right to the chase, dunnit?

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#265498 - 08/17/07 08:12 PM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Ygraine]
Phoenix_Inferno Offline
Banned

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 135
Loc: Maryland, U.S.A.
Quite. It's amazing how much of a message can be conveyed through one simple photograph. Awsome post Nemo \:\)
_________________________
Love. Laugh. Live. Forever.
Hail Satan!
=================================================
"There are no coincidences...only the illusion of coincidence"--V for Vendetta

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#265499 - 08/17/07 08:17 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Virus9]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
The story is that he had two episodes of brain swelling, the second being the fatal one.

The painkiller (Equagesic) was present on his system at only one of the episodes, the cannabis was on both.

Of course, I admit that's not enough to say marijuana killed Bruce Lee.

I just find sad that a man who dedicated so many years to train his body and mind to perfection ended up using a drug... and the probably unrelated fact he died at such a young age.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#265502 - 08/17/07 08:32 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Virus9]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Virus9
But not all actions produce their desired result.

I do think I see what you're getting at, though. Basically what you're saying is that an action is to be judged on the level of success achieved in obtaining the desired result. I don't necessarily disagree with that.


Its simple: If someone shits on the rug, I don't care whether it was intentional or not, they aren't allowed in the house.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265504 - 08/17/07 08:57 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
Its simple: If someone shits on the rug, I don't care whether it was intentional or not, they aren't allowed in the house.


Then the liberals would argue that we should all pitch in to buy that someone Depends.
Where's your sense of compassion?

_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#265509 - 08/17/07 09:12 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
 Quote:
Where's your sense of compassion?


Right next to the guy I just kicked out of my house for shitting on the rug.
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#265535 - 08/17/07 10:54 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
I'm just going to share a story I have with drug use:

So I was sleeping in bed naked next to my naked boyfriend and his dad came in fried on something and started to cuddle my boyfriend. My boyfriend got angry for obvious reasons and told him to get out. His dad then started to accuse him of doing drugs, he knew because he(his dad) had been there many times. My boyfriend then gave him an analogy explaining why he was mad at his dad for coming into his bed, and his dad got mad at him for using “big college words” like “analogy”.

Good times.
_________________________
Hi.

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#265572 - 08/18/07 05:14 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
ts simple: If someone shits on the rug, I don't care whether it was intentional or not, they aren't allowed in the house.


I find your obsession with incontinence a little disturbing so I'm going to shift to a real world example.

I was driving through a parking lot a few years back when a young woman pulling out of her space hit the side of my car.

It wasn't her action (pulling out of her parking space without looking) that pissed me off in that situation, it was the results (the collision and the huge dent in the side of my car).

Whether or not she intended to do it is irrelevant.

Had she performed the same action a couple seconds later she would have missed me. It wouldn't have even mattered then.

As I've said before, there are times and places to make judgments about intentions and actions, but results will always matter more.
_________________________
Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

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#265575 - 08/18/07 05:44 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Virus9]
DarkApollyon Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 581
Loc: Brighton, England
 Originally Posted By: Virus9

 Quote:
anyway just a quick look at yor average pothead should get the alarm bells ringing in any rational person.


So you can tell that someone smokes pot just by looking at them? That's a pretty neat trick. You'll have to teach me how to do that some time. ;\)


I was thinking more of people who I know smoke pot on a regular basis, and whom I have known over a long period of time....
_________________________
www.vampiretemple.com

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#265592 - 08/18/07 07:02 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Virus9]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Virus9
I find your obsession with incontinence a little disturbing so I'm going to shift to a real world example.


Its an inside joke. Don't get all Sigmund Freud on me. ;\)

 Quote:
I was driving through a parking lot a few years back when a young woman pulling out of her space hit the side of my car.

It wasn't her action (pulling out of her parking space without looking) that pissed me off in that situation, it was the results (the collision and the huge dent in the side of my car).

Whether or not she intended to do it is irrelevant.

Had she performed the same action a couple seconds later she would have missed me. It wouldn't have even mattered then.


Are you seriously trying to make an analogy between an accidental fender bender and someone who has a character flaw that makes them prone to drug abuse?

Give me a fucking break.

 Quote:
As I've said before, there are times and places to make judgments about intentions and actions, but results will always matter more.


No kidding. Some actions are accidental, some are intentional, some actions are indicative of character, some aren't.

Thanks for taking the time to point out the obvious and managing to keep it irrelevant and condescending in the process.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265608 - 08/18/07 09:12 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: J. Hagalaz]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
He's saying that being outrageous is essential to a black mass, and that this requires defying the conventions of the time. In giving as an example the decrying of drug dealers and the psychedelic movement, he is illustrating an outrageous contempt for the received counter-cultural wisdom of 1969. In 1984, in a climate of anti-drug hysteria, the psychodrama might have taken an entirely different stance on drugs. The theme here is not dogmatic attachment to or rejection of anything; it is a FORM of interaction with, and critique of, the larger culture through ritual. In other words, read the surrounding two pages if you want to attend to "the larger picture."

I don't know anyone who walks around in a trance. As for magic, as far as I know magic in satanism is just a metaphor for charm, skill, eloquence, style, etc. I can't say whether people in general who smoke pot are more or less charming or eloquent--I doubt that either generalization holds, but the people I know well enough to know their personal habits are of course charming and eloquent.

Someone who makes self-destructive decisions in a pattern of compulsive behavior is without self-control and therefore not a Satanist. But the same goes for someone who makes decisions based on authority, received wisdom, moral panic.... Maybe a clearer example is sex. Someone who abstains because the Bible or his mother says so is clearly being controlled in a sense, and so is someone addicted to sex (i.e. someone who pursues it at the expense of more important things). One can't say "doing X means being controlled"--such an assessment requires looking at the reasons for doing X, the circumstances, the values in play, and so on.

As for Mr. LaVey's stance on drugs (I don't know that he was a doctor of anything), he may well have personally abhorred them, but his opinions are not authoritative. Anyone who walks away from reading The Satanic Bible with the view that LaVey wanted, or would tolerate, having "followers" or people who cited his thoughts as legitimizing their own is just not getting it.

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#265609 - 08/18/07 09:17 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Helian]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
It is you who are not getting it. Take a hike.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#265610 - 08/18/07 09:19 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Nemo]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
Being imprisoned would suck infinitely and without qualification. But I thought some of the assertions being made were about doing drugs without regard to their legality. The picture doesn't evoke an explanation of why being an alcoholic or nicotine addict (both legal) is unsatanic. Also, if creating a risk of incarceration is unsatanic, then, since practicing non-state-approved religions is illegal in these countries, if satanism is a religion, it follows that in China or Saudi Arabia, being a Satanist is unsatanic. A lifetime of coffee abuse may have lowered my IQ, but I think that exposes a fundamental flaw in the argument.

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#265614 - 08/18/07 09:29 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Dr. LaVey's stance against drugs is stated in more than one book and many interviews, and is unequivocal. I happen to agree with his stance, not because of the source, but because it is correct.

Even if drug abuse is legalized for the moronic herd, it is still incompatible with Satanism.

You are the one who does not get it.

As Magister Phineas has said: Take a hike.

Anyone else who does not get it should take a hike too.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265616 - 08/18/07 09:43 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Svengali]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
Disagreeing with you is no reason to take a hike, or cause for rudeness on your part. My view is at least as carefully reasoned and presented as yours, and you have no special authority or expertise on these matters of differing opinions. And the more names you add to your own on the list of people who agree with you, where that is meant to make what you say more credible, the less credible any criticism of "herd" mentality is going to sound coming from the proudly unanimous chorus.

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#265618 - 08/18/07 09:47 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
My. Some folks sure do like to dig.
_________________________
reprobate

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#265619 - 08/18/07 09:52 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
 Quote:
since practicing non-state-approved religions is illegal in these countries, if satanism is a religion, it follows that in China or Saudi Arabia, being a Satanist is unsatanic. A lifetime of coffee abuse may have lowered my IQ, but I think that exposes a fundamental flaw in the argument.



Nope... no flaw there. This statement is 100% accurate. If Satanism is illegal in your country, then being a Satanist in those countries IS unsatanic. Remember that Satanism is a pragmatic religion, not an idealistic one. We do not require people to martyr themselves for the cause. In fact, many of us think that it's quite silly to do so.

The intelligent thing to do in such cases, if being a practicing Satanist means that much, is to leave the country in question.

Why are you so intent on breaking the law?
_________________________
Hail the Citizens of the Infernal Empire!
Hail Satan!
Magister David Harris
Host - Hate Speech Radio
http://www.hatespeechradio.com

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#265620 - 08/18/07 09:59 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
LanceAlton Offline


Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 116
Loc: Delphi
VERY good post!

My sentiments likewise -

At least once a week i find myself being the only sober person in the room. Once-upon-a-time this frustrated me to no end. I soon realized the power and comfort i gain from this. Control over ones self is already control over everything.

\:\) I just wish everyone would remember the conversations ive had with them. heh.
_________________________
"Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all."
-Friedrich Nietzsche


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#265621 - 08/18/07 10:01 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
Personally, I will be glad to see you go...What's with all the troublemakers and rebels without a cause here lately?
Damn...If you wanna break the law, just do it...but you have obviously no place here.
_________________________
He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog.
||.TSB Page 33.||

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.
|| Benjamin Franklin ||

The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|| George Bernard ||



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#265622 - 08/18/07 10:03 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: x9x]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
I'm not breaking the law or advocating breaking the law. Are you that afraid of disagreement that you need to ride people out on a goat for not sharing your view? I would be glad to be out of place among such.

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#265623 - 08/18/07 10:09 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Magister_Harris]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
I'm not intent on breaking the law, or inclined to. Enough with the ad hominems -- what I wrote questions generalizations about the law; it's not an invitation to break it or indication that I would break it myself.

Back to the example, is the intelligent thing to do to leave the country if the law is unenforced? If one's tent is in a remote oasis so that the probability of detection approaches zero? On pragmatic grounds, no. I'm having trouble separating the moral and pragmatic strains of view. If the only reason to obey the law is the fear of getting caught and punished, then it's hard to see the advantage of our legal system over Saudi Arabia's.

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#265625 - 08/18/07 10:16 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
 Originally Posted By: Helian
The picture doesn't evoke an explanation of why being an alcoholic or nicotine addict (both legal) is unsatanic.


On the contrary, if not taken quite so literally, it evokes a fairly nice image. An alcoholic is a prisoner to his addiction and has limited control over his actions during a state of inebriation. Such a lack of control is anathema to a Satanist.

I want to clarify that I'm not equating a few drinks to alcoholism. In fact, I drink occasionally, but it's never to excess. I know my limits and I'm responsible enough to know when I've reached my limit.

The legality of alcohol does not negate responsibility.

Excessive binge drinking on a regular basis, regardless of the legality of such an act, is hardly Satanic. It is unhealthy, unproductive and a willful act of stupidity.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#265626 - 08/18/07 10:18 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
You don't have to share my view, but I know with all the previous statements you posted here, that we're not on the same Satanic page. Some actions are illegal + are very stupid to do so, so why all the discussion around it, as they are for the full 100% loud and clear.
_________________________
He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog.
||.TSB Page 33.||

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.
|| Benjamin Franklin ||

The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|| George Bernard ||



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#265629 - 08/18/07 10:23 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
You should take a hike because you have a flawed and incomplete comprehension of Satanism and an obstinate need to quibble from that foundation. Why would we want you here? You have demonstrated nothing of value.

And actually I do have special authority to speak about Satanism and on behalf of the Church of Satan.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265631 - 08/18/07 10:31 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Helian
Are you that afraid of disagreement that you need to ride people out on a goat for not sharing your view?


Rather to not waste time quibbling over things that should be self-evident.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265632 - 08/18/07 10:34 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Svengali]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265634 - 08/18/07 10:40 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
 Quote:
I'm not intent on breaking the law, or inclined to.


If you are a pot smoker, then this statement is a lie on your part. You ARE intent on breaking the law, and you do so everytime you light up.

 Quote:
If one's tent is in a remote oasis so that the probability of detection approaches zero?


So... you're saying that it's okay to break the law if you don't/can't get caught? This speaks volumes about you.

Using your "remote oasis" example, I've read many a news story about horny old men who go to the remote oasises of Thailand and Vietnam to have sex with young children. It's illegal for them to do so in Thailand and Vietnam... but the laws there are rarely enforced, so I suppose that you think that's acceptable as well.

And before you go off on some "how can you compare pot-smoking to child molestation" rant, let me save you the trouble. I CAN compare the two, because they're both illegal.

 Quote:
If the only reason to obey the law is the fear of getting caught and punished, then it's hard to see the advantage of our legal system over Saudi Arabia's.


If that's genuinely how you feel, then perhaps you would prefer to live in Saudi Arabia.

The desert sun and sand are calling you. Praise Allah!
_________________________
Hail the Citizens of the Infernal Empire!
Hail Satan!
Magister David Harris
Host - Hate Speech Radio
http://www.hatespeechradio.com

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#265637 - 08/18/07 10:52 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Magister_Harris]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
"So... you're saying that it's okay to break the law if you don't/can't get caught?"

NO. I'm making a point about pragmatism. On purely pragmatic grounds, it is ok. In my view it's often not ok to break the law even if you CAN'T get caught. Therefore an answer solely in pragmatic terms is unsatisfying.

I don't smoke pot. When I said I am a drug addict I was referring to coffee, in jest but also in truth. I said that I know people who do smoke pot who do not fit the generalizations that were being made. That is a criticism of the generalizations -- not an endorsement of pot, although I do have a very libertarian attitude toward it. If this conversation were about my habits and vices, it would bore you with tales of buying more books than I can read and eating too many sweets. A discussion can turn on lively disagreement without being about the person who disagrees with you.

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#265642 - 08/18/07 11:05 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Svengali]
Virus9 Offline
CoS Priest

Registered: 08/06/01
Posts: 2108
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Thanks for taking the time to point out the obvious and managing to keep it irrelevant and condescending in the process.


I apologize if I came across as condescending. That was certainly not my intention.

I already admitted that I was splitting hairs over generalities, which is why I offered to drop the subject. I probably should have just shut the fuck up after your parting joke. ;\)
_________________________
Everyone is special in their own way, and by "special" I mean the short-bus variety.

"Recognize the phrase 'national interest' as a synonym for 'self-interest' and you will find no moral obstacle that cannot be removed from the highway of ambition."
-Lewis Lapham

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
-Winston Churchill

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#265643 - 08/18/07 11:07 AM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Virus9]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I'm sure I'll survive!

.... and of course I NEVER come off as condescending! ;\)
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265646 - 08/18/07 11:12 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Helian]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
If the law bothers you - change it.

Until then, the bulk of your responses are moot.

On a philosophical level, no one gains anything from smoking pot. Smoking (anything) has harmful health affects. So even if smoking pot is only as harmful as smoking cigarettes - it's still stupid.



Edited by Drimlybunk (08/18/07 11:13 AM)
Edit Reason: An over-due emoticon.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#265647 - 08/18/07 11:16 AM Re: Why illegal drug use is not Satanic. [Re: Drimlybunk]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Exactly!

Also for "recreational" pot smokers; if your "normal" frame of mind is so poor that pot is an improvement, or if you can't improve your frame of mind without a crutch, you should seek qualified psychiatric counseling.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#265673 - 08/18/07 01:17 PM Though your name is now blackened... [Re: Helian]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
...I wish to reply to your statement for the benefit of other readers.

 Quote:
it follows that in China or Saudi Arabia, being a Satanist is unsatanic.


To declare yourself a Satanist in a country where religious groups are actively persecuted by government policy such as in China is not merely not Satanic, it is stupid and suicidal.

Satanism is highly pragmatic.

If doing something is tantamount to suicide or setting yourself up for probable imprisonment then this may be popular in the faith-based religions of the world but not for Satanists.

Splitting hairs over what is "right" or "wrong" about legal systems is the equivalent of playing solitaire.

It means nothing in the real world.

Anything that could result in needless imprisonment or death is simply stupid.

Using illegal drugs can result in death or imprisonment.

Once that is understood, there is really nothing else that matters on the subject that is of actual importance to the Satanist.

Anything more is just verbal masturbation.

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#266430 - 08/21/07 10:46 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Drimlybunk]
Infgoat Offline


Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 38
Loc: New York
 Originally Posted By: Drimlybunk




You destroy yourself.
Should that be illegal?

The answer does not matter. Drug use and trade is self-destructive. Self-destruction is unSatanic.


I totally agree. But here's a question that I never really thought about until now. Shouldn't other activities such as smoking a cigarette or anything else of a legal but destructive manor to oneself. Doesn't that also classify as being unSatanic? (I don't know if this is an issue that has been brought up before). But, thats just the way I see it.

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#266432 - 08/21/07 11:04 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Infgoat]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Every choice has its cost. Many indulgences can have health effects. The Satanist takes responsibility for his choices.

Alcoholism and addiction to hard drugs are not indulgences, they're compulsions. They are inherently irresponsible. In this respect, they can't be compared to caffeine, nicotine, or temperate social drinking.
_________________________
reprobate

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#266550 - 08/22/07 02:24 PM Will smoking cigarettes get you this? [Re: Infgoat]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...

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#266580 - 08/22/07 06:19 PM Re: Will smoking cigarettes get you this? [Re: Nemo]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Only if you do it in a Bar in Manhattan...
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#266589 - 08/22/07 07:34 PM Re: Satanism and Laws [Re: Infgoat]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
It has been brought up...repeatedly.
Magister Nemo summed up the issue, visually.

This is not a matter of morality. This is not Sunday School.
It is pragmatic.
Magus LaVey explained clearly why mind altering drugs are not Satanic. Read "The Satanic Witch".

Pragmatically, breaking the law will land you in jail. That puts a damper on seeing your will done, mastering your domain or being able to walk through your day unmolested.

_________________________
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http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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