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#262764 - 08/06/07 06:55 PM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: The_Lightning]
Opeth Offline


Registered: 07/26/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
Who says that without mercy= violently cruel?

Without mercy means without consideration of another's feelings.

I really don't see why this is so hard to understand.

Edit:
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Rebels.html


No it`s not hard to understand.......if someone treats you unjust, in your home especially, by all means no not hold back...kick them out and if it means using force..then so be it....use your own judgement......
_________________________
99% of it is what you make of it....so if your life sucks....You suck......

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#263426 - 08/09/07 08:31 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: LuminousMind]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
Satanism is not a dogma, philosophy, or religion. It celebrates a kind of intellectual freedom and vigor that are inconsistent with dogmatic belief ("no stifling dogma shall encramp my pen. . . . I question all things"--TSB). It is not a philosophy, at least not in the sense of "philosophy" that applies to what someone whose day job is philosophy does and what someone in a philosophy class studies, because it does not attempt to analyze, systematize, or justify anything in any coherently principled way. And "religion" is just another word for dogma. Stodginess about what Satanists believe or may question is therefore somewhat comically self-stultifying. The "rules" and "statements" are part of an ironic, theatrical, critical, and above all playful literary approach to social criticism; it would miss the point to try to derive from them a consistent set of principles for living. They were not worked out with a logician's, or even a theologian's, will to systematicity. Consider no. 3, "When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there." How can you not go there, when by hypothesis you're already there? And would an intelligent reading of this stuff take no. 11 as seriously contemplating killing a persistent panhandler? All of these texts that look like rules are ways of criticizing and celebrating different types of personalities, values, and practices. They take the form of rules (and myth, and psalm) because they are in part a reaction against a tradition that purports to follow rules set by spirit-beings. Trying to evaluate your own practices and values to see whether they "conform" to texts that are only rules in form and on an ironic, metaphorical level makes about as much sense as trying to decipher the meaning of the parts of The Satanic Bible that are cryptoglot gobbledygook.

What would make you less "Satanic" would be going against your nature in the situation you describe, if your nature is to laugh it off and make a civilized excuse to end the social occasion. More generally, to ask "Am I following or must I follow rule x in doing y" is antisatanic, because in asking such questions we look outside ourselves for a source of value--an illusory goal, if you embrace the moral skepticism in Nietzsche, which is where The Satanic Bible gets most of is more philosophical- and polemical-looking material. The Satanic Bible is a fun read penned by a sparkling wit and master showman. It is not a dense or deep text that merits brow-furrowing study or exegesis. If parts of it seem unclear or inconsistent, your guess is as good as anyone else's, whether or not you answered the ad in the comic book and paid the $25 for the plastic card.

I would certainly not abuse an annoying guest unless it became necessary, because such behavior is upsetting and amounts to abuse of the self. Now, uninvited entrants--that's what guns are for, and Satanists love guns! (Hos epi to polu, as Aristotle would say--for the most part, being careful to avoid the dogmatic generalization that you MUST love guns to be a Satanist.) :-)

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#263439 - 08/09/07 09:38 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Helian]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
You miss the point.

I think I just wrote a whole post on this type of behavior, but I will re-iterate.

Satanists agree with -EVERYTHING- in the Satanic Bible. We do not need convincing or discussion. We just do. Agreeing with the Satanic Bible makes us Satanists. If you disagree with any part of the Satanic Bible (including and highlighted by Eleven Satanic Rules of Earth, Nine Satanic Statements, or Nine Satanic Sins) you are not a Satanist. Sorry, if you wanted the title but no Satanist needs to pick and choose what to agree with.

The Satanic Bible sets forth our rules. Either agree with them, or not. There is no gray area. LaVey wrote the Satanic Bible be clear and direct - he did not intend for his readers to water it down to make it more palatable.

 Quote:
And would an intelligent reading of this stuff take no. 11 as seriously contemplating killing a persistent panhandler?


An intelligent reader would not read rule #11 and think that it implies murder. Destruction is a creative process - treat it as such.

 Quote:
. . . trying to decipher the meaning of the parts of The Satanic Bible that are cryptoglot gobbledygook.


Which parts would those be?
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#263441 - 08/09/07 09:47 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Helian]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
 Quote:
The Satanic Bible....is not a dense or deep text that merits brow-furrowing study or exegisis.


...... \:>

This is why you fail to grasp what Satanism is about. As Magister Nemo pointed out below, more study is required.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#263449 - 08/09/07 10:09 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Helian]
gypsy Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 4749
Loc: Here
Oi Vey! Satanism is a religion. It isn't a philosophy, but it has a philosophy.

Capice?
_________________________
"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie."

"Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen to be dressed for it."


Church of Satan

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#263458 - 08/09/07 10:27 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Re-read the Satanic Bible.

Satanism IS a religion and a philosophy and also possesses some "dogma" (be careful in what sense you use that term).

Satanism is NOT "anything goes."

The Satanic Sins, Rules of Earth, etc. are not "rules" or "laws" in the sense that Christians, Jews and Muslims slavishly follow the "laws" and "commandments" of their religion.

The Satanic Rules and Laws are more of a clearly defined and distinct ETHOS that Satanists resonate with NATURALLY. They define what could be called "the code of the Satanists." If you find you don't resonate with them NATURALLY it is a good sign that you are not a Satanist, even if it is by close margin.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#263463 - 08/09/07 10:47 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Helian]
D. Macabre Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 1539
Loc: The South Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: Helian
It is not a dense or deep text that merits brow-furrowing study or exegesis.


I think Dr. LaVey said it best when he said:

"Satanism demands study, not worship!"
_________________________
D. Macabre
Believe Nothing. Test Everything.
Watch Society Crumble!
The Social Cesspool!
The Grumpy Sergeant

"A man who limits his interests, limits his life." --Vincent Price

“Do what you want as long as it's paying off for you. But once it's become a liability, then something is wrong and you better find out what it is.” --Anton Szandor LaVey

"I have only ONE thing to say to trendy brain-dead music-centered youth: “ARBEIT MACHT FREI” SHITHEADS – PULL UP YOUR STUPID PANTS AND FORM A LINE AT THE PLATFORMS, THE TRAINS WILL BE ARRIVING SOON." --Magister James D. Sass

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#263466 - 08/09/07 10:50 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: D. Macabre]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
The Satanic Bible is actually written to be readily understood by someone of "average" intelligence.

That is what makes it so easy to identify people of below average intelligence when they don't get it. ;\)
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#263472 - 08/09/07 11:00 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Svengali]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
My main reason for not calling Satanism a religion is that it is neither prescriptive nor faith-based. That is, it does not tell people what to do, and it does not require beliefs unfounded by evidence or reason. It does not much matter whether it is called a religion. If resonating naturally with something means finding it appealing, then I resonate. But one can't resonate with a code--a code is a set of laws.

"Philosophy" is even more ambiguous than "religion" and has many loose and popular uses. I once heard the philosopher Simon Blackburn relate overhearing on a bus in London one woman saying to another, "I try to be philosophical and just not think about it." When I said Satanism is not a philosophy, I had in mind the discipline that goes by that name, not "philosophy" in any loose sense of a collection of opinions or attitudes. Philosophy the discipline has standards of clarity and rigor that are simply not met by the "canonical" writings of Satanism, however enjoyable and otherwise meritorious they certainly are. But again, terminology doesn't much matter, as long as one knows what is being asserted.

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#263474 - 08/09/07 11:01 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Svengali]
D. Macabre Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 1539
Loc: The South Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: Svengali
The Satanic Bible is actually written to be readily understood by someone of "average" intelligence.

That is what makes it so easy to identify people of below average intelligence when they don't get it. ;\)


They stick out like a sore thumb.
_________________________
D. Macabre
Believe Nothing. Test Everything.
Watch Society Crumble!
The Social Cesspool!
The Grumpy Sergeant

"A man who limits his interests, limits his life." --Vincent Price

“Do what you want as long as it's paying off for you. But once it's become a liability, then something is wrong and you better find out what it is.” --Anton Szandor LaVey

"I have only ONE thing to say to trendy brain-dead music-centered youth: “ARBEIT MACHT FREI” SHITHEADS – PULL UP YOUR STUPID PANTS AND FORM A LINE AT THE PLATFORMS, THE TRAINS WILL BE ARRIVING SOON." --Magister James D. Sass

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#263479 - 08/09/07 11:08 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Helian
My main reason for not calling Satanism a religion is that it is neither prescriptive nor faith-based. That is, it does not tell people what to do, and it does not require beliefs unfounded by evidence or reason. It does not much matter whether it is called a religion. If resonating naturally with something means finding it appealing, then I resonate. But one can't resonate with a code--a code is a set of laws.

"Philosophy" is even more ambiguous than "religion" and has many loose and popular uses. I once heard the philosopher Simon Blackburn relate overhearing on a bus in London one woman saying to another, "I try to be philosophical and just not think about it." When I said Satanism is not a philosophy, I had in mind the discipline that goes by that name, not "philosophy" in any loose sense of a collection of opinions or attitudes. Philosophy the discipline has standards of clarity and rigor that are simply not met by the "canonical" writings of Satanism, however enjoyable and otherwise meritorious they certainly are. But again, terminology doesn't much matter, as long as one knows what is being asserted.



Define your terms before you apply them.

If you are using narrow or special definitions without stating so, you may as well just talk to yourself.

There are coherent and viable definitions of philosophy and religion that would include Satanism. They may or may not coincide with whatever current philosophy textbook you have been assigned.

Terminology is not irrelevent.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#263482 - 08/09/07 11:13 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Drimlybunk]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
>>Satanists agree with -EVERYTHING- in the Satanic Bible. We do not need convincing or discussion. We just do. Agreeing with the Satanic Bible makes us Satanists. If you disagree with any part of the Satanic Bible (including and highlighted by Eleven Satanic Rules of Earth, Nine Satanic Statements, or Nine Satanic Sins) you are not a Satanist. Sorry, if you wanted the title but no Satanist needs to pick and choose what to agree with.<<

If that is so, then you must agree that "religions must be put to the question," since that is in The Satanic Bible; therefore, if you think Satanism is a religion, you must agree that Satanism must be put to the question. So your dogmatic stance makes a contradiction--not a Satanist.

>>The Satanic Bible sets forth our rules. Either agree with them, or not. There is no gray area. LaVey wrote the Satanic Bible be clear and direct - he did not intend for his readers to water it down to make it more palatable.<<

If there is anything clearer in it than the rejection of being a follower, I don't know what it is. It is not watering it down to distinguish it from dogmas.

 Quote:
And would an intelligent reading of this stuff take no. 11 as seriously contemplating killing a persistent panhandler?


An intelligent reader would not read rule #11 and think that it implies murder. Destruction is a creative process - treat it as such.

If you read "destruction" to mean creation, then you're interpreting the text nonliterally--but is that not against the "rules"? If one can agree with something by contradicting it, then it's hardly surprising if one agrees with everything.

 Quote:
. . . trying to decipher the meaning of the parts of The Satanic Bible that are cryptoglot gobbledygook.


Which parts would those be?
[/quote]

Now I know you're pulling my leg!

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#263486 - 08/09/07 11:18 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Phineas]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
Disagreeing with you about what it's about doesn't entail that I fail to grasp what it's about. "You fail to grasp the idea we are disagreeing about" is just a verbose way of saying "you're wrong." As for more study, if reading something leaves no questions or puzzles about its content, rereading it is not the best use of one's study time. I don't find the book dense or brow-furrowing, but that is in the context of things I have studied, other books I have enjoyed and puzzled over. If someone sees more depth in it than I do and enjoys plumbing it, more power to him or her.

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#263490 - 08/09/07 11:23 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Svengali]
Helian Offline


Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Chicago
It's hard to see anything narrow or special about using "philosophy" to mean what philosophers do. The context indicated that I wasn't using it in the broader sense of anything someone might opine on the "big questions."

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#263494 - 08/09/07 11:29 AM Re: 11 Satanic Rules What if you dont follow a rule? [Re: Helian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Helian
It's hard to see anything narrow or special about using "philosophy" to mean what philosophers do. The context indicated that I wasn't using it in the broader sense of anything someone might opine on the "big questions."


Your definition of "religion" was narrow and special.

While the literature of Satanism is not rigorous philosophy in the formal academic sense, and does not pretend to be, there are definite philosophical underpinings of Satanism that are coherent and non contradictory, and within the literature there are rationally argued positions, so it is not entirely true to say that Satanism does not have philosophical content or positions.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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