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#267981 - 08/29/07 04:49 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: The_Lightning]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8273
Who said anything about supernatural forces? I didn't, and Dr. LaVey certainly didn't. Hint: subsitute supernatural for supernormal.

And no one mentioned brainwaves either.

You don't have the means to conduct an experiment? What exactly do you think is necessary to do this, other than you and another person?

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#267989 - 08/29/07 05:08 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Phineas]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
Who said anything about supernatural forces? I didn't, and Dr. LaVey certainly didn't. Hint: subsitute supernatural for supernormal.


Here's a great essay written by the High Priest that really explains the difference between "supernatural" myth and the super-normal.

Satanism: The Feared Religion.
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#267996 - 08/29/07 05:31 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Phineas]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Actually, my initial phrasing was "supernormal" but it wouldn't translate- so I used "supernatural" instead, which does translate (into Hebrew) properly into what I meant.
But now I looked in Webster dictionary and acknowledged the difference; indeed, I should have used "supernormal".

Anyhow-
If I am to use the scientific method in my experiment of proving that via ritual one has [immediate] effect on minds of people who are not present, I will need tools that I don't think anyone has.
I do think that when two people are in the same space, they subconsciously perceive more than they are conscious of and react to it… however, when they are not in the same space--- hmm… I just don't know.

I think that deciding that something is true (in a scientific sense) based solely on subjective experience that has more than one explanation- is just… incorrect. Or in other words: a belief.


Edited by The_Lightning (08/29/07 05:34 PM)
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#268030 - 08/29/07 10:10 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: The_Lightning]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8273
Very well then. If you ever decide you have the tools to conduct this experiment, do share your findings here.

Onwards.
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#268031 - 08/29/07 10:29 PM A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Entangled Minds by Dean Radin summarizes over one hundred years of serious application of the scientific method to the so-called "paranormal".

There is a vast difference between following the popular assumptions of noisy "scientists" as opposed to examining the actual research conducted and the evidence-based conclusions drawn as a consequence of that research.

We have an entire forum downstairs for Church members that discusses Greater Magic and while anyone is welcome to ignore this issue or personally regard it only as psychodrama, that does not mean there is nothing to it.

It only means that you will not be testing it or using it.

And you certainly do not have to.

Lesser Magic in Satanism is so broad and encompassing in its effectiveness that Greater Magic can be so relegated by the Satanist to mere ceremony or psychodrama if desired.

Real sorcerers have no need for apprentices.

They just use what they know. ;\)

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#268034 - 08/29/07 11:24 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Lustfire]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
 Quote:
Ritual is fantasy, and I think a successful one turns those fantasized desires into reality.


I agree, I would see no point in it otherwise.

 Quote:
Perhaps I am incorrect, and if I am, do not refrain from correcting me, but isn't all the mumbo-jumbo in a Satanic ritual just an emotional device to make your mind motivated?


Sure. Hypermotivated even. Toward what? You decide. How much can you accomplish in that state? Only you can say. What good is it if you are a master of the universe and can't pay the rent? Not much. What good is it if brings you everything you desire? It is a pearl without price. To me the ultimate question of whether or not it is mere psychodrama or more is an intellectualization of a non-issue. If you use it, and you are a successful animal, the ultimate mechanism, or reality, or whatever, is irrelevant.
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#268083 - 08/30/07 07:30 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Nemo]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
while anyone is welcome to ignore this issue or personally regard it only as psychodrama, that does not mean there is nothing to it.

It only means that you will not be testing it or using it.


The fact that I don't believe in greater magic working in a "supernormal" manner does not prevent me from using it.
And I never said there is nothing to it- I said I am highly skeptical there is something "supernormal" to it. But I'm sure willing to test it if I'll know how!
Anyhow, I will read this book you recommended Magister, thank you. I'll even review it in the book section if it changes my point of view. I'm just a bit skeptical about all those "scientists" since I already stumbled many times on such "scientific experiments" and found them highly lacking.
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#268126 - 08/30/07 02:54 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
 Quote:
I'm just a bit skeptical about all those "scientists" since I already stumbled many times on such "scientific experiments" and found them highly lacking.


Then conduct your own.

Personal experience trumps the evidence.

Do not be surprised if you get what you desire.

Be specific.
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#268137 - 08/30/07 03:44 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Felstorm]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
Then conduct your own.

As I already wrote…
I would LOVE to test it--- If I had the right tools (whatever they are) to do so.

 Quote:
Personal experience trumps the evidence.


Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.

 Quote:
Do not be surprised if you get what you desire.

Be specific.


Interesting thing (as a side note, if you already mentioned it);
One usually gets what he desires out of [not-very-scientific] experiments if one is specific enough. The brain has great tricks of rearranging its perception of reality in a manner that would make strong beliefs seem factual. You build your frame of reference- and the rest just fits into place. Known psychological phenomenon.
That's the very reason I don't and won't trust subjective experiments as truthful.
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#268180 - 08/30/07 08:19 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
 Quote:
If I had the right tools (whatever they are) to do so.


If you don't know what they are, then how do you know that you are lacking them?

 Quote:
Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.


No one has purely objective means. All data and analysis is emic in nature. Develope your own methods, determine what you wish to prove to yourself, and collect data. If the data analysis matches your theoretical values, awsome. If it doesn't, make up a new theory and collect more data. If the theoretical values match your data analysis, awsome. If not, repeat until it does. You should reach completion in around ten years. Let me know how it goes.
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#268186 - 08/30/07 09:16 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Jack_Lantern]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
If you don't know what they are, then how do you know that you are lacking them?


Do YOU know what the right tools are to check if higher magic is "supernormal" or not??
I have no idea what kind of device can check that.


 Quote:
\No one has purely objective means. All data and analysis is emic in nature. Develope your own methods, determine what you wish to prove to yourself, and collect data.


Argh… I hate this kind of arguments.
Religious people always use it to prove God cannot be disproved.
Yeah- right, it cannot be…… if the scientific method is disregarded and everything is passed as "merely subjective"—so yeah, when nothing is real, everything can be proved (or at least remain un-disproved).
Great. =S

 Quote:
If not, repeat until it does. You should reach completion in around ten years. Let me know how it goes.


I really hope I will never complete a process of making my world so subjective that everything is beyond doubt.
I dislike solipsism.
But hey- whatever floats your boat… I guess.
To each his own.
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#268218 - 08/31/07 04:33 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.


Personally, I think this contradicts the whole essence of magic as used within Satanism. The ritual chamber is a place where one "objectively enters the subjective state". Outside of the ritual chamber, I'd certainly consider myself a skeptic and intellectual thinker. But there's a benefit to having a separate environment for controlled sessions of "intellectual decompression".

 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
As to lesser magic- it isn't really "magic",


Why not? The Satanic Bible gives an explicit definition of what the book means by "magic", and I'd say lesser magic fits that definition too.
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#268219 - 08/31/07 05:03 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Bill_M]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
 Quote:
Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.


Personally, I think this contradicts the whole essence of magic as used within Satanism. The ritual chamber is a place where one "objectively enters the subjective state". Outside of the ritual chamber, I'd certainly consider myself a skeptic and intellectual thinker. But there's a benefit to having a separate environment for controlled sessions of "intellectual decompression".


There is a difference between playing pretend in the ritual chamber and actually holding the belief [outside the ritual chamber, which is what I meant] that whatever happened inside there was definitely "supernormal" and objectively real.
I think you completely agree with me on this point Warlock.

 Quote:
Why not? The Satanic Bible gives an explicit definition of what the book means by "magic", and I'd say lesser magic fits that definition too.


….I meant the supernormal kind of "magic".
Lesser magic is completely explainable by scientific means.
But if you really want to call me on it- so ok, I'm sorry, you're right- I shouldn’t have put it that way.

But seriously, I don't understand what I'm being argued about.
All I've ever said is that I'm highly skeptical of how "supernormal" greater magic is.
I didn't even say I *believe* there is nothing supernormal about greater magic.

So why does everyone seem upset with my statements?


Edited by The_Lightning (08/31/07 05:04 AM)
Edit Reason: clarification
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#268226 - 08/31/07 06:34 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
ABZU Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
 Quote:

There is a difference between playing pretend in the ritual chamber and actually holding the belief [outside the ritual chamber, which is what I meant] that whatever happened inside there was definitely "supernormal" and objectively real.


Ok, this discussion has “downstairs” written all over it… but.

What happens when you are outside of ritual walking along, and all of a sudden you see the result of a ritual’s success beyond what could be attributed to mere self transformative psychodrama. Something like, a person rattles off word for word the dream you scripted for them to have. The usefulness of self transformative psychodrama is wonderful in and of itself, but when a result pops up outside of the temporary “suspension of disbelief” your rational mind can not help but accept that something is happening there. Having this sort of thing happen often enough will create a concrete assurance that the “supernormal” is happening, but not necessarily the “supernatural”. Sometimes our preconceived assumptions of our physical limits just need adjustment. You can test where the limits are by trying it out yourself. Some people claim to see results, and some don’t. It chaps me just as bad to see a self proclaimed “Great Magician” that lives in the trailer park with his mom, as it does to see someone claiming that Greater Magic cannot work without ever checking it thoroughly. It’s the lazy route both ways.
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#268249 - 08/31/07 09:10 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: ABZU]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
Something like, a person rattles off word for word the dream you scripted for them to have


Though look, even in this case, there are a few things to take into consideration;
Extracting dreams out of a person is like hypnotism- there is a good chance that the hypnotist will (unconsciously even) transform the other person's memory by using suggestions.
To know that indeed the person had a dream that you never even suggested vaguely- there must be no direction from your side. Especially if the person aforementioned wants to impress you or please you.
Let's say it does work, anyhow, then there is another part to it-
How can you know that you didn't implant the dream, in a supernormal way, at the minute you met the person- and not during the ritual.
Maybe it isn't possible to plant dreams in minds of people who are not present, but it is possible to plant them in people who are. This will have to be checked using a phone, while the other person is far away.

Also, some dreams are just likely to be dreamt. Sexual dreams involving you shouldn't come as a surprise if you've been seducing that person, for example.
Dreams of failure and distraction are likely to come to a person who attracts it- the subconscious if far wiser than its owner; it knows when the conscious it being destructive and will react to it in the forms of dreams.
Lovers will most likely have similar dreams, since the emotional and intellectual connection is so strong, that the subconscious processes may be the same as well.

There is a lot to consider when it comes to experiencing "freaky coincidences"- and testing it should be as close as possible to the scientific method.
I want to enhance, again, the fact that I am completely pro testing it, and that I will (I did try that [plating dreams], by the way, a couple of time in the past- but never with seriously unbelievable results. But I'll try it again, anyhow- to be sure).. and that I never claimed the supernormal does not occur.
I just dislike the idea of people hurrying to conclusion based on experiences that might have more than one explanation. That's all.
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