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#268285 - 08/31/07 12:58 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10580
Loc: England
>> Do YOU know what the right tools are to check if higher magic is "supernormal" or not?? <<

It's quite simple as I see it.

When it happens right here and now then there is nothing super normal about it. It is a perfectly natural attribute of what is possible in this world. Even if we cannot fully explain the machinations at work.

There are no super natural realms. Only the carnal universe in which we live.
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#268295 - 08/31/07 01:51 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Agreed Priest.

Thank you for you insight on this topic.
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If you could....would YOU?



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Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#268299 - 08/31/07 02:05 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
There are no super natural realms. Only the carnal universe in which we live.


Of course!!

Maybe I should clarify:
I used the term "supernormal" to merely refer to that which has yet to be proven by science… like sub-atomically transferring thoughts from one mind to the other (as some quantum theorists claim may be possible).

And since I don't have tools to test quantum theory and prove anything like the aforementioned scientifically- all I can do are some half-assed tests… which I'll never accept as completely credible.
In one sentence: I support science and oppose belief.
~laughing~
And I'm still not sure how I got myself into an argument about this =D

ANYHOW-
Happy Birthday Reverend!

P.S
My grammar is probably a bit fucked-up, my apologies if it is.
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#268301 - 08/31/07 02:13 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10580
Loc: England
>> And since I don't have tools to test quantum theory and prove anything like the aforementioned scientifically- all I can do are some half-assed tests… which I'll never accept as completely credible.
In one sentence: I support science and oppose belief.
~laughing~
And I'm still not sure how I got myself into an argument about this =D <<

I actually realised what you meant, Miss.

There is no argument.

Except that I would add that I don't care about explanations. The results of magic speak for themselves and are all that really matter.

One does not look a gift-horse in the mouth.

Thank you for the B'day wishes.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#268306 - 08/31/07 02:49 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning


I would LOVE to test it--- If I had the right tools (whatever they are) to do so.


Tools are not as important as the mindset involved.

Disbelief is also a belief.

 Quote:
Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.


Set a clear goal.

Say, "I want $200.00 of United States currency to pay for my CoS Membership."

Do a Greed ritual.

Forget about it... and wait.

When you get the $200 dollars, there is your objective evidence.

You can stick it in your wallet.

 Quote:
Interesting thing (as a side note, if you already mentioned it);
One usually gets what he desires out of [not-very-scientific] experiments if one is specific enough. The brain has great tricks of rearranging its perception of reality in a manner that would make strong beliefs seem factual. You build your frame of reference- and the rest just fits into place. Known psychological phenomenon.
That's the very reason I don't and won't trust subjective experiments as truthful.


Without saying too much...

Dismissing it all as "tricks of the mind" and "psychological backflipping" will only serve to nullfy any magic you DO work.

It HAS been scientifically proven that people that adamantly disbelieve in psi ability score STATISTICALLY lower on psi tests. This means that their viewpoint is altering their results. In other words: The lack of evidence is evidence of psi phenomenon.

And if psi phenomenon, or the ability to alter chance statistical tests with the mind, is possible... what ELSE is possible?

Perhaps nothing... perhaps it is all just one big dream and you are really stuck in The Matrix.

"There is no spoon, Neo"


Edited by Felstorm (08/31/07 02:50 PM)
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#268307 - 08/31/07 02:50 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
I actually realised what you meant, Miss.

There is no argument.

=D
Oops! sorry Sir. I was on the roll of defending my case there ;D


But I too would add that I hardly analyze it myself- I just remain skeptical about the whole lot and celebrate every time it works (and it does).
Still, an argument about it is interesting every once in a [long] while ;]

Cheers!
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#268310 - 08/31/07 03:42 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Felstorm]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Did you even read my posts?

 Quote:
Dismissing it all as "tricks of the mind" and "psychological backflipping" will only serve to nullfy any magic you DO work.


1. I never said I DO NOT BELIVE in the possibility of "supernormal"/ that I BELIVE the "supernormal" DOES NOT exist. I said I'm a SKEPTIC.

2. I already preformed a lot of successful workings. Take the last one for example;
Two days ago I used higher magic to get the job I wanted. Yesterday I got it.
My explanation? Simple;
There are always goddamn job openings in the end of August.
Plus, I'm charming- I made them want to hire me.

MAYBE
The higher-magic did help.
Who the hell knows?
I sure don't.
Why should I believe it was due to that?
Better yet- why should I change my skeptical view if everything's been working great for me?
I don't fancy fixing what isn't broken.

 Quote:
It HAS been scientifically proven that people that adamantly disbelieve in psi ability score STATISTICALLY lower on psi tests. This means that their viewpoint is altering their results. In other words: The lack of evidence is evidence of psi phenomenon.


I heard so much criticism on those "scientific" tests- that I got bored with it.
But if you have a truly-beyond-doubt credible source- I would thank you very much for sharing it.

 Quote:
Perhaps nothing... perhaps it is all just one big dream and you are really stuck in The Matrix.

"There is no spoon, Neo"


Human batteries are extremely inefficient.

;P

=D
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There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268326 - 08/31/07 05:52 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Bill_M]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10140
Alright, I feel the urge to hop in after reading all this, because it's something that interests me as well.

As you say, Greater Magic is subjective in nature. Wouldn't it be obvious enough then that it is therefore unable to be actually tested via scientific means and methods?

If it can be tested in such a manner, then obviously it has an objective element. That objective element has clearly never been satisfactorily demonstrated or explained, if it exists. All the speculation about quantum physics and brainwaves and whatnot that are frequently bandied about as relevant to Greater Magic remain totally unsubstantiated. If someone cares to actually demonstrate this objective element, I encourage you to claim your Nobel Prize now.

It is a huge mistake to ignore the fact that subjective experience is not objectively (read, scientifically) demonstrable. That's a major breach of logic.

Also, suspension of disbelief itself suggests that outside of ritual, you do indeed have disbelief - is it not therefore true that it's totally unnecessary to know or care how magic works, or to even give it any thought at all outside the ritual chamber? The terminology itself seems to suggest pretty clearly that ritual is meant to be suspension of analysis - not that it is required that you do this constantly and fruitlessly claim that you know how the whole thing works.

I don't know how it works. I have no reason to really believe that it has more than a psychological cause. Even if that really is the extent of it, it in no way devalues magic - man has a need for both dogma and ritual, as Dr. LaVey himself said. On a final note - the alleged "experiments" others refer to really don't deserve to be called that, since they violate pretty much every protocol of experiment known to man, and involve no solid analysis. Felstorm's example above (a ritual to get $200) is the very definition of what isn't an experiment. Seriously chief, I'll get $200 and a whole lot more on Thursday. That ain't magic. That's busting my ass at work.

(PS - this isn't directed at Warlock BillM, just his comments were a nice springboard for mine.)
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#268327 - 08/31/07 05:58 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
-.-

Damn.
I write a bunch of replies tying to make my point--- you write one and smash the nail so hard on the head it's probably in Chine by now.

I feel so inadequate ='



Now seriously- thank you for the clarification.
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There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268331 - 08/31/07 06:06 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8273
"I don't know how it works." Similar to the bumblebee?
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#268333 - 08/31/07 06:31 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Phineas]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
This post is not about magic, but I would reconsider using the bumblebee as an example. The story is a myth from bad understanding of physics.

Flight of the Bumblebee

Lasers illuminate the Flight of the Bumblebee

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#268334 - 08/31/07 06:31 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: ABZU]
Josef_K Offline


Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Ireland
I don't post here very often, so I hope no one will mind if I jump in here, as this is a very interesting topic and one that involves a "stumbling block" if you will to my complete interpretation of Satanism.

My own interpretation of Greater magic is the same as that of Lustfire and The_Lightning; that the ritual serves as pure psychodrama. I have no problem with this at all. The idea that real world events can be altered by our activities in the ritual chamber is one that I do have difficulty accepting. I will confess that I have never carried out a Satanic ritual and thus the rest of this post is purely conjecture, and I completely accept and agree with anyone who believes my views are non-valid for that very reason. However if someone could come back to me on these views I would be very grateful.

I am a scientist by training and also in my career, and I believe that the scientific method is the ultimate guide to testing our world around us. There are testable absolutes, and science is no place for relativism. The speed of light to a stationary observer in California is the same to a stationary observer in Finland; no matter the intelligence, education or even physical and mental state of the observer.

 Originally Posted By: ABZU


What happens when you are outside of ritual walking along, and all of a sudden you see the result of a ritual’s success beyond what could be attributed to mere self transformative psychodrama. Something like, a person rattles off word for word the dream you scripted for them to have. The usefulness of self transformative psychodrama is wonderful in and of itself, but when a result pops up outside of the temporary “suspension of disbelief” your rational mind can not help but accept that something is happening there. Having this sort of thing happen often enough will create a concrete assurance that the “supernormal” is happening, but not necessarily the “supernatural”. Sometimes our preconceived assumptions of our physical limits just need adjustment. You can test where the limits are by trying it out yourself.


From my point of view, these sorts of events would not be enough to prove that a ritual worked. We humans are pattern recognition machines, and the sheer psychological power of a satanic ritual would be enough to send me unconsciously seeking for little signs of its working in my everyday life, whether or not I actually believed it could occur. For example, I do not believe in ghosts; in fact I'm certain they do not exist. However ask me to spend a night in a creaky old "haunted" house alone and I wouldn't be able to stop myself from being slightly unnerved.

It is for this reason that I believe we have to tread carefully when using personal experience to prove something. There needs to be a definite objectivity of measurements to prove that no personal bias affects the results.

To prove that a ritual had worked, I would need double blind tests of the ritual, from various individuals. I am aware how absurd and impractical this would be and I'd have no idea how to go about it, but I'm using this as an example of the rigors demanded by scientific experiment.

Also, reading the Balance Factor section of the Book of Belial, I became aware that the impossible is not possible with greater magic. It seems that (and perhaps my understanding of this section was not fully clear, so forgive me if I am incorrect) you can only achieve in a ritual that which you are capable of in real life. For example, I would assume that no matter how hard I tried in a ritual, I would find it impossible to make myself fly, as this violates both human anatomy and physics. It would be silly of me to expect such from a ritual. I would have more success carrying out a ritual for more achievable ends. And, if we can achieve these things without the help of greater magic; surely it’s better to admit that we did it without it? That we are in fact successful, enterprising, talented individuals who can achieve many, many things when we put our minds to it?

If I have gone too far and am poking about in things best left for the members section; please forgive me.

Edit: Pardon my silliness, LeviathanXIII's post clears up quite a bit of my issues. I'll be sure to not hit "post" next time without checking no one else has answred my question while I was typing.


Edited by Josef_K (08/31/07 06:37 PM)
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#268340 - 08/31/07 07:19 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Josef_K]
ABZU Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
We could all learn a great deal from a pit boss at a casino.
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Warlock ABZU

Church of Satan

"As I have stated, the paradox where more people are "talking" dark forces up, down, and sideways, but fewer than ever are actually living as night people, provokes speculation. The moral here is that when everybody's talking, very few are doing. More time is spent comparing notes with aficionados than in enjoying the hobby per se."
A.S.L. / T.D.N.

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#268342 - 08/31/07 08:07 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Phineas]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10140
Aside from that science myth, I do get your analogy, and a Greater Magic FAQ I wrote (and was published in German) says exactly that. To use my analogy, most of us don't know how an internal combustion engine works, but we still drive cars and know they need gas.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#268365 - 09/01/07 12:05 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: John.Doe]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8273
And this is why the analogy holds true. Science says one thing one day, then someone else adds something different a bit later. Meanwhile, our little test subject, totally unaware of any of this, goes ahead and does what it does.

That is the point.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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