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#268374 - 09/01/07 01:47 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
That is not what I was saying at all. What a waste of time.
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"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#268379 - 09/01/07 02:58 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Phineas]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
I didn't see it from that point of view, makes sense now. Thank you for the explanation!

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#268401 - 09/01/07 08:13 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: John.Doe]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
And thank you for providing the links!
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#268530 - 09/02/07 02:58 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
 Quote:
MAYBE
The higher-magic did help.
Who the hell knows?
I sure don't.
Why should I believe it was due to that?
...


I suggest reading The Combinatin Lock Principle and The Ravings from Tartarus in the book called The Devil's Notebook. This will explain the Satanic Magic from Anton LaVey's view. If you have already read them, then please disregard my suggestion. The point to this is you have gotten what you wanted in the end and you became happy did you not? That is the purpose for the Lesser and Greater Magic; to obtain your goals in life according to your will and therefore making the most out of life. Be happy that you got what you asked for, know that it was the power of magic, and be careful of what you are being skeptical about.

 Quote:
Better yet- why should I change my skeptical view if everything's been working great for me?


"Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained." - 7th Satanic Rule of the Earth
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#268541 - 09/02/07 05:42 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: LordofDarkness]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
I suggest reading The Combinatin Lock Principle and The Ravings from Tartarus in the book called The Devil's Notebook. This will explain the Satanic Magic from Anton LaVey's view. If you have already read them, then please disregard my suggestion.


~disregarding it~

 Quote:
The point to this is you have gotten what you wanted in the end and you became happy did you not? That is the purpose for the Lesser and Greater Magic; to obtain your goals in life according to your will and therefore making the most out of life.


Nah! get out of here! \:o

 Quote:
know that it was the power of magic, and be careful of what you are being skeptical about


Yes, you're right, skepticism is very dangerous.
I should watch out or I might find myself being skewered by a unicorn when I walk down the street.

 Quote:
"Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained." - 7th Satanic Rule of the Earth


Look at magic is a self-transformative psychodrama for a minute (if it's not too hard for you)- it's meant to rid you of any emotions that might obstruct you from getting your goals. If you suddenly get all self-conscious, insecure, anxious and stressed when it comes to real life application of that psychodrama because you don't trust it worked- the whole point of it was totally lost!
I acknowledge the fact that there is no room for insecurity when it comes down to getting what I want and holding on to it.
Homo homini lupus. You're either the hunter or the hunted; weakness it not an option.

There is a good reason why it is phrased "acknowledge the power of magic" and not "believe in magic".
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There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268606 - 09/02/07 01:22 PM An even simpler suggestion. [Re: The_Lightning]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Just stop using Greater Magic altogether.

Or if you do it at all, consider it pure ceremony for fun.

Don't use it for to seek any specific outcome and don't use it with any expectation that it could be "real".

Anton LaVey was quite clear that if you use magic and then refuse to acknowledge the results that you gained were from magic that you will lose all that you gained.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

Looks to me as though you are doing exactly that here.

Why bother setting yourself up that way if magic turns out to be real after all?

For the present just relegate real magic to the trashbin and use Lesser Magic alone. Clearly that is already working for you so why create possible problems for yourself?

If real magic is real, then you have been warned by one of the world's most famous and pragmatic sorcerers to not deny its results if you ever get any results.

Any technology can create problems is if it is misused. If you are going to use Greater Magic and do not follow the instructions you could regret the results.

Why do that to you?

Seriously. Why?

If magic is bunk it does not matter that you explain away the results you get after the fact.

If magic is real then it does.

So if you still have to explain it away please consider not using it in the first place.

This is not an idle suggestion!

Just a friendly and simpler suggestion.

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#268610 - 09/02/07 01:34 PM Some assembly required. [Re: The_Lightning]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
There is a good reason why it is phrased "acknowledge the power of magic" and not "believe in magic".


Just a reminder.

The warning given about how to treat the results of magic was:

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

If real magic is bunk then the second statement is unimportant and untrue both.

If real magic is real it is a clear warning.

Always read the instructions before hitting the "start" button.

Batteries not included. ;\)

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#268611 - 09/02/07 01:37 PM My answer. [Re: Unknown]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12572
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Why, yes, I have!

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#268635 - 09/02/07 03:13 PM Re: An even simpler suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
What if Judeo-Christian God is real?

Then I'm surely going to hell for misusing the life he gave me.

But no, I don't think I'll change my life because of that vague possibility.

I do not have the ability to believe.
I need objective proof.
When there are objective explanations far simpler to a matter in hand, there is no reason believing in baseless complex theories.

I completely and utterly acknowledge the power of ritual, and the power I have to change future events using this unusual method.
I just don't believe!
LaVey never mentioned anything about having to believe.

And again, I must say, I do not dwell on the results I get. I do not explain them to myself- I just accept my good fortune as a pleasant surprise- like LaVey suggested should be done. I do the ritual and forget about it- I don't expect it to work, I don't even care if it does since I already got all those negative emotions out- exactly like LaVey suggested.

Everything I wrote in this thread is a one time analysis meant to bring forward the complete needlessness of harboring belief. I enjoy playing (from time to time and when I can) the devil's advocate where it comes to belief.
I do not usually sit and wonder about things gone good. The only thing that matters is if it works or not.


I trust my own skeptic path is the correct one for me, but I thank you anyhow for your kind advice Magister.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268640 - 09/02/07 03:43 PM You lie. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Quote:
I do not have the ability to believe.


Right now, you disbelieve certain statements made about magic, on the grounds of lack of proof.

This disbelief of yours is simply a belief that the statements are false.

So if...

You believe that the statements are false.

then...

You believe.

Why do you believe this, without any proof?

Surely better to try to find proof, and then either:

a) find, it, and know it is true
b) not find it, and know you still can't be sure

And thus not believe anything, either way, without proof?

This is not like Pascal's Wager at all. This is just epistemology!

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#268642 - 09/02/07 03:56 PM Re: You lie. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
=D

This is fun.


ok.

 Quote:
Right now, you disbelieve certain statements made about magic, on the grounds of lack of proof.

This disbelief of yours is simply a belief that something is not so.

You believe that the statements are false.

You believe.

Why do you believe this, without any proof?


Simple, Warlock, I DON'T.
Did I ever say those statements are FALSE?
Did I?
No. I didn't.
I said there is no reason to believe they are true.

I've said it a million times already, and yet, nobody wants to listen. Why? this is beyond me.

 Quote:
Surely better to try to find proof, and then either:

a) find, it, and know it is true
b) not find it, and know you still can't be sure

And thus not believe anything, either way, without proof?


I did, got option B and continued to not believe anything.

I bet you my shoes (and as a JAP, I love shoes) that you yourself did not find scientific proof of the supernormal.



Just to be fair; I should let everyone know that I don't plan on abandoning logic any time soon.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268646 - 09/02/07 04:33 PM Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
Simple, Warlock, I DON'T.
Did I ever say those statements are FALSE?
Did I?
No. I didn't.


That you consider those statements to be false is inferred by you equating it to Pascal's Wager, bearing in mind your Satanic religious standpoint.

From your response, I gather that this was unintentional on your part, so I'll leave that issue there and move on to the other issue you raised:

 Quote:
I bet you my shoes (and as a JAP, I love shoes) that you yourself did not find scientific proof of the supernormal.


It is said that the difference between science and magic lies in the knowledge of the observer. This is true.

Things that were once considered "magical" or "supernormal", can become verified like any other advanced technology.

For personal knowledge, personal verification is what is required. It is not necessary for everybody to know and accept something for it to be true.

If I find proof of something, it is, ipso facto, science (Latin "scientia", knowledge).

One of several reasons* James Randi's money is safe; if someone succeeds in demonstrating magic under lab conditions, then they have not demonstrated magic, but science. It doesn't matter if Albus Dumbledore himself is whipping out his wand and turning furniture into animals for Randi's entertainment; the definition of magic includes being unproven, so proving it means it is now classified as a science.

There can be no proven magic that is still "magic", by definition. It's technology once it's proven! But that's a mere matter of what it's called. The thing itself is the same.

I'm quite comfortable with using technology not known to most, and calling it magic since that is what it is to most people ;\)

 Quote:
Just to be fair; I should let everyone know that I don't plan on abandoning logic any time soon.


Pleased to hear it.

* The other reason is of course that he himself is the ultimate judge of whether or not conditions are met. One one hand, this is only fair, as it is his money (assuming he even has it). On the other hand, it is rather unfair, as it means that no matter what is demonstrated, he can still say "No, not happy" and thus not owe the person $1,000,000.

He also reserves the right to turn anyone away at any stage, and exercises that right frequently, if he thinks a claim is too "absurd". So in essence he is saying with one breath "show me" and then with another breath "I don't want to even see it" when someone offers to show him. Talk about hypocritical self-deceit!

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#268653 - 09/02/07 05:20 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
"There is no worse a blind man (or woman) than one who chooses not to see." - Magister Sprague
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#268658 - 09/02/07 05:39 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
That you consider those statements to be false is inferred by you equating it to Pascal's Wager, bearing in mind your Satanic religious standpoint.


Ok, some hard-core philosophy;

I know that God cannot be disproved. However, science has found simpler explanations to what has been considered "godly" once, and came up with proof that makes the existence of such being highly doubtful.

I know magic cannot be disproved. However, science found many simpler explanations to a person's success- which makes the existence of a supernormal force highly doubtful.

The only method a human being can trust to be real in common reality is the scientific one, since it constantly produces the same results.
Of course, there has always been a fight between those who cry to forsake logic, and those who see it as the only guideline by which to live. I'm with the latter.

Both God and the supernormal are highly unlikely cases- in this way are the same. However the application Satanic ritual actually suits human needs and has proved to empower persons using it, while the other proved the opposite.
So unlike using God's tools (aka- being religious) that gain me nothing, I would rather use the "supernormal" tools, that may not be objectively real, but I gain a lot from using them anyhow.

Ok, I'm done with that =P
moving on:

 Quote:
If I find proof of something, it is, ipso facto, science (Latin "scientia", knowledge).


This is not the full definition of what science means, as you probably well know;
3 a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method.
(Webster dictionary)

The word "general" would imply that personal truth is not science, and the "especially as obtained and tested through scientific method" would imply that testing it by other means isn't scientific.

Of course, once the scientific rules behind something are revealed, it is no longer magic. But until they are, it is only logical to stay highly skeptical of everything, don't you think?

And I'll bet you again, that if a human being demonstrated the application of scientific rules that Randi has yet to discover, he would be fair enough to give him/her the money before proceeding to turn the magic into science.
Farther more, it is a matter of efficiency that he will logically sift through all the applications he gets- after all, he doesn’t have all the time in the world.

P.S
How can Dumbledore prove to Randi that magic is real if he is dead?? You silly goose -.-

;\)
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268665 - 09/02/07 06:32 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Phoenix_Inferno Offline
Banned

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 135
Loc: Maryland, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Linguascelesta
For personal knowledge, personal verification is what is required. It is not necessary for everybody to know and accept something for it to be true.


Wonderfully stated. The only person that can varify your experiences is YOU. No one else.

By the way, no one is asking you to abandon your logic. to do such a thing would be insane! Just don't be closed minded to possibilities, or you will set yourself up for disappointment most surely.


Edited by Phoenix_Inferno (09/02/07 06:33 PM)
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Hail Satan!
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