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#268776 - 09/03/07 12:18 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
I very much agree with everything you've written.

(well, maybe not including the "It seems very likely to me that magic could be a normal phenomenon or mechanism of the quantum reality". I do agree that it IS somewhat likely…. is it Very likely? hmm....I'm not so sure)
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#268784 - 09/03/07 01:03 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
I didn't say I dismiss the possibility- I said it's no fun discussing it because it leads you nowhere.


In your opinion.

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Dictionaries are based on how words are used.


That's right. And it is especially used by people in a manner different than yours.


And this is important because the majority will always be best-informed?

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Anyhow, what are you arguing? That what you believe in is actually science?


I am a skeptic, and as such I believe nothing.

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A lot of lunatics may be a 100% sure that the little green men they see are scientific.
Well, they aren't.


What lunatics?
How do you define them as such?
how do you know that they are such?
What little green men?
What do you mean by scientific when referring to said little green men?
How do you know they aren't?

In short, and I mean this with no offence, what are you on about here?

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One should see what works for him, and use it on a pragmatic level- nowhere in there is belief necessary. It is a lot wiser to doubt, and just do what works.


Right; that's something we're in agreement upon regarding this matter

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Now, because I can't know if magic works on some quantum-physical level, and I DO know that ritual works on a psychological level, I decide to use it.
My decisions of how to use my time and view my world are first of all logical.
If it happens to be that, unknowingly, I also use a scientific rule yet to have been discovered—yay for me.


And a second thing! We're on a roll. Soon we'll be in complete agreement about everything \:o

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Even if it is a caterpillar, you can't call it a butterfly until it has wings.


Right. However, you do not need the world at large to acknowledge the wings before calling it a butterfly. It is sufficient for you to see them and say to yourself "Aha, a butterfly".

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I don't know that, although I readily accept that it is almost certainly true.

Sure, because the simple explanation is most likely to be the right one.


Of course. I would like to underline the "most likely", though ;\)

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#268790 - 09/03/07 01:29 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Phoenix_Inferno Offline
Banned

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 135
Loc: Maryland, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Linguascelesta
And a second thing! We're on a roll. Soon we'll be in complete agreement about everything


Ah, but darling, I don't think we can ALL be in agreement on EVERYTHING. However, I feel your points are truely valid ones, given my limited knowledge thus far on the subject at hand. Personally, reality and what it is in general, I base on my own experiences, however, as you well know, I can't go into detail about that here.

 Originally Posted By: The_Lightening
Even if it is a caterpillar, you can't call it a butterfly until it has wings.


 Originally Posted By: Linguascelesta
Right. However, you do not need the world at large to acknowledge the wings before calling it a butterfly. It is sufficient for you to see them and say to yourself "Aha, a butterfly".


A very well stated point by you both. Often times, the general public need not know, nor wil they understand if you try to explain such matters to them, those things which you have personally varified for yourself. If you have validated something beyond a doubt for yourself, then whatever that is, is in essance,true, even if no one else acknowledges or can understand it.

Here I would do well with an example:

For example, if I was lying in bed one night and heard a voice calling my name, felt someone touching my face and holding my hand (granted, while all still concious and aware ) saying, "I will help you," most people in general would think me a Lunatic. I Myself might even question this event and whether or not it really occured at all. Perhaps it was just a fluke, and given I am skeptical, I'm not going to rightly believe what happened right off the bat. Now, some may have this same experience and say to themselves, "Someone was definately here with me that night." This person, in essance, will somehow have validated this experience and view it as true.

Others, like Myself, may need or require more evidence. Reality is all a matter of personal validation in my opinion, and is different for every individual. My experiences will not be the same as Linguascelesta's, nor will yours be the same as his. To validate the above mentioned experience as being true, I Myself would require this to happen (or something similar to it) more than once. How many times I need is determined in my own head, and so it is for every other person. I may require it to happen twenty times, while the person next door might only require it happening once to see it as being true and valid. Some may simply view this as a fluke altogether and not see it as true at all, and I am perfectly content to let them think what they wish about me and my mental status, however, I'd never try to explain this situation to a member of the general public, unless I feel that person has the capacity to understand, or at least to accept the possibility that it did in fact occur.

YOU must validate your own reality. While you may be more likely to believe someone else's validations, given your lack of knowledge of a particular subject, this does not mmean that you can't go out and seek more information to validate it for yourself if that is required. I believe my computer is working because it has not done otherwise thus far. If it does stop working, I believe that it can be fixed, because I have seen this done before. Now, someone who knows nothing about computers might not think it can be fixed at all, until they experience someone having fixed it for them. they required more information in order to validate this truth. Does that make sense?

I do hope so. I'm trying to the best of my ability to add to this discussion, though I am in general fear that this thread in and of itself has gotten way out of hand.


Edited by Phoenix_Inferno (09/03/07 01:49 PM)
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#268796 - 09/03/07 01:59 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
You pulled a straw man by implying that Lightning was something other than skeptical, which is not what she said. She said she doubts, not that she disbelieves.

So yes, you did - by setting up something that was not said, then refuting it. It's not a valid argument in my book.

And just to add my two cents:

He who is slow to believe all things is possessed of great wisdom.

I don't accept something unless I see it plain as day. Not think, not believe I perceive, but see it, like a rusty crowbar smashing me in the face kind of see it. I accept crowbars as real because my skeleton says they're pretty damn real.

Since I'm pretty happy with my life and see no urgent need to change my worldview, if someone comes along saying they know something that will dramatically enhance my life, I'm going to say they're full of shit until they prove it. I'm not going to jump even one hurdle to "test" someone else's claims, since I'm pleased as punch right where I'm at and the burden lies on them. You can argue that the burden does not lie on them since according to their claim I am the one to gain, but in fact it does, since they wouldn't be telling me about it in the first place if they didn't have something to gain from it. I don't believe in altruism, so they are profiting by my acceptance of their view of they'd stay silent, so let them prove it.

It is often said that Satanists don't have to change views to "become" Satanists, we just see ourselves in The Satanic Bible and that's that. How very true that is. I changed not one thing about myself after reading The Satanic Bible, and any changes in view I've had in my life have been made on my own initiative upon receiving new information (confirmed the hard way), not because I was promised anything.

Thus, if you accept something as real that isn't as substantial as my crowbar, you risk false belief - and worse, you risk ignoring the crowbar that may be about to crush some things you're both sentimentally and literally attached to.

So back to the point at hand - I don't strictly believe in magic, nor do I know what it is, what it does, or anything else. I know I've seen it presumably work, and I know I can work out in my mind ways that it can work, but as I've said elsewhere, I feel no need to find explanation or anything else for it. Magister Nemo commented above on Dr. LaVey's statement that you should not deny magic or risk losing everything you have gained - and yet, isn't that 100% consistent with the view that magic is psychological in nature, since psychosomatic powers are generally known to only work in the absence of any doubt whatsoever? Additionally, doesn't that imply that suspension of disbelief as I've described it, and leaving magic in the chamber where it belongs, is a perfectly valid approach? I don't think about magic on a minute to minute basis, and I've found that's distinctly for the best.
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#268798 - 09/03/07 02:03 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
 Quote:
I didn't say I dismiss the possibility- I said it's no fun discussing it because it leads you nowhere.


In your opinion.



Ok, I'm going to twist it completely around;
There is nothing we can know to be purely factual, and therefore everything we perceive as fact is actually merely a belief.

Ok.

Then we're both believers, and that's it.
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#268799 - 09/03/07 02:10 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Quote:
Ok, I'm going to twist it completely around;
There is nothing we can know to be purely factual, and therefore everything we perceive as fact is actually merely a belief.


Actually, as I mentioned, any given experience is definitely real. We might be completely wrong about the cause of that experience, but the experience is real.

If I see an elephant in this room, there may or may not be an elephant, but I know I'm experiencing the image of it regardless.

So there are some things that can be known.

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Then we're both believers, and that's it.


We're both pragmatists, albeit with partly differing views on what constitutes knowledge.

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#268802 - 09/03/07 02:27 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
Actually, as I mentioned, any given experience is definitely real. We might be completely wrong about the cause of that experience, but the experience is real.

If I see an elephant in this room, there may or may not be an elephant, but I know I'm experiencing the image of it regardless.


Ah, well… as long as you don't claim your experiences to be real outside your subjective world (aka- scientific facts)--- I'm content.
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There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268817 - 09/03/07 04:19 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Poetaster]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Well, it is just that I hear the most about science from people who don't do science as a profession.

In fact, I hear a lot about various professional endevours from people that don't take part in similar endevours.

So when I hear someone speak so eloquently on the scientific method, I just have to ask. It may be smart-assed, but that is not a sufficient condition to declare it invalid.
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#268818 - 09/03/07 04:23 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
 Quote:
Why, do I have to be a scientist in order to understand the principles of the scientific method?


Well, yeah, it kind of helps. That is why most science courses at a university have a "Lab" section attached to them. You have to do chemistry to learn chemistry. You have to do physics to learn physics, etc.
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"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#268820 - 09/03/07 04:35 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Jack_Lantern]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Actually, I am a psychology student, and as such I was obliged to learn about the scientific method and how it is applied in psychology.

So yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
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There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268825 - 09/03/07 04:57 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
Since I'm pretty happy with my life and see no urgent need to change my worldview, if someone comes along saying they know something that will dramatically enhance my life, I'm going to say they're full of shit until they prove it. I'm not going to jump even one hurdle to "test" someone else's claims, since I'm pleased as punch right where I'm at and the burden lies on them.


That is an excellent point Reverend Leviathan. Here is a story that demonstrates the concept beautifully.

An older gentleman meets a younger chap and tells him he can teach him how to drive a car. The much younger chap asks the older gentleman to prove it. The older gentleman points to a red volvo and says, "that's my care there". The younger chap grins and politely asks to see the gentleman's driving record. The older man walks off frustrated because he has quite a sore driving record.

Not everything is always as it seems. ;\)
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#268828 - 09/03/07 05:07 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Ok, just checking.
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"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#268872 - 09/03/07 09:27 PM Your new religion [Re: The_Lightning]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12557
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
If you do not wish to respect the possibility that Anton LaVey knew what he was talking about when it comes to Greater Magic then you are certainly welcome to take that position.

Of course those of us who knew him in person might hold a different viewpoint regarding what we feel that he actually did know.

Now that you have dispensed with the 7th Rule of the Eleven Rules of the Earth as written by Anton LaVey, pray tell what other elements of Satanism do you intend to cast out?

Of course what you will be left is something other than Satanism.

I do hope you enjoy your new religion ...whatever it is.

;\)

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#268874 - 09/03/07 09:34 PM Re: Your new religion [Re: Nemo]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
Magister, I believe she said,

I completely and utterly acknowledge the power of ritual, and the power I have to change future events using this unusual method.

LaVey never described how magic worked (as in by what mechanism), though in the Satanic Bible he does refer to it as psychodrama.

If this makes someone not a Satanist, what am I doing here?
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#268875 - 09/03/07 09:39 PM Since you ask... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12557
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Magister Nemo commented above on Dr. LaVey's statement that you should not deny magic or risk losing everything you have gained - and yet, isn't that 100% consistent with the view that magic is psychological in nature, since psychosomatic powers are generally known to only work in the absence of any doubt whatsoever? Additionally, doesn't that imply that suspension of disbelief as I've described it, and leaving magic in the chamber where it belongs, is a perfectly valid approach? I don't think about magic on a minute to minute basis, and I've found that's distinctly for the best.


I think that the Bedtrock of Satanism includes the Eleven Rules of the Earth and that Anton Szandor LaVey offered serious guidance there regarding Greater Magic.

Greater Magic is optional for the Satanist but the Seventh Rule is explicitly clear with regard to how the Satanist needs to treat the results of Greater Magic.

Bedrock is bedrock.

Satanism is what it is.

With regard to any other issue such that Greater Magic can feel compatible with this or that view of reality, the results are what count.


Anton LaVey told us in the Seventh Rule in no uncertain terms that this was what needed to be done to obtain sustainable results.

His Rule of the Earth matches my own experience and I am unwilling to reinterpret Satanism against what Anton LaVey wrote.

If I gave any other impression here I certainly apologize for that.

Satanism includes Greater Magic as an option.

If someone intends to use it to obtain real results in the real world they have been warned by Anton LaVey with regard to how to treat those results.

To do otherwise is to abandon at least one element of Satanism.

That is what I was attempting to communicate here.

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