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#268877 - 09/03/07 07:48 PM Re: Since you ask... [Re: Nemo]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10146
Oh, I most certainly agree that LaVey made certain things crystal clear. However, I strongly contend that LaVey was very careful about what he didn't say as well - because he didn't want his foot in his mouth later. I'm only speculating but I'd wager that Herr Doktor knew that idle guesses as to the reasons for magic were not only dangerous (because to this day the causative effect remains unknown - magic is still magic, not technology), but possibly counterproductive. Overanalysis is the enemy of magic, which is why I have totally ignored discussions on what makes magic work.

Man needs both ritual and dogma. He has enough technology.

...and ironically, to that end I am skeptical of any claims as to how magic works. ;\)
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

#268882 - 09/03/07 08:06 PM Re: Your new religion [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 13184
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The Seventh Law is what it is.

If someone does not wish to use Greater Magic then they certainly don't have to.

If they do and they then deny that the results they achieve with Greater Magic then this flies in opposition to the Seventh Rule of the Eleven Rules of the Earth that Anton LaVey wrote and is bedrock to this religion, as is plain to see.

A Satanist does not have to use Greater Magic with the intent to produce change in the real world (apart from internal psychological effects). Ceremony and psychodrama are alternative or additional goals for this practice.

IF HE DOES seek to use real magic however then the guidance has been offered by the founder of our religion:

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

The Doktor did not say you "might" lose what you obtained.

He wrote that you will lose what you obtained.

That seems to me to be crystal clear guidance with regard to how to treat the results of efforts at Greater Magic.

Again, no Satanist needs to perform Greater Magic with the intent of producing real external results.

However, this piece of Satanist bedrock remains explicitly clear: IF you deny the results you get then you will lose all you have obtained.

Any Satanist who does not feel comfortable with real magic need only not practice it. Lesser Magic (psychological manipulation) and ceremony for its own sake or to influence one's personal psychological outlook are always there and more than sufficient in themselves to produce what we want to achieve in the world.

However, if a Satanist is going to perform Greater Magic with the intent to produce measurable results in the real world and then denies that the power of magic obtained those results, they are defying the clear warning and specific advice of Anton LaVey.

I was merely warning this person to consider the clear advice given by the founder of Satanism for those who intend to use real magic.

If you wish to discuss this downstairs further we certainly can. This issue is so fundamental that I must be missing something that you are seeing about this issue.

In any case, bedrock is bedrock.

If someone is going to use Greater Magic and then denies that the results they obtained were due to magic, they will lose all they obtained according to Anton LaVey.

I agree with him.

#268905 - 09/03/07 10:06 PM Re: Your new religion [Re: Nemo]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8327
If I may, I would also like to point out that Dr. LaVey had conversations on this subject with some of those who knew him. He may not have published what was said, but he sure hinted at it in his writings.

I happen to be quite certain of this! ;\)
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan

"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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