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#267746 - 08/28/07 02:53 PM Satanic Ritual.
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Recently I have had a lot of interesting events that seem to be falling into place more and more. It is almost as if someone was spying on me and placing these events into place on purpose.

Has anyone else while exploring the depths of Lesser Magic and Greater Magic experienced something quite similar?


Edited by Unknown (08/28/07 09:18 PM)
Edit Reason: Correct.
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#267747 - 08/28/07 02:56 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Unknown]
Atrum Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 162
Would these be negative events or positive events?

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#267750 - 08/28/07 02:59 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Atrum]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
Would these be negative events or positive events?


Great question!

Positive events. ;\)
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#267827 - 08/28/07 06:49 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Unknown]
Lustfire Offline


Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 5
I’ve noticed that even the un-shallow people are dumbfounded by a good outfit. As for Greater Magic, I am often amazed and fascinated to see my desires happen in real life, in the exact way I wanted them to.

Eh, so yes. I have experienced something somewhat similar.

There have also been a couple of negative events. Failure is one of them.Also, if I don't make a succesful ritual, and I know this subsequently, it really fucks me up.

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#267871 - 08/28/07 09:05 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Unknown]
Jack_Lantern Offline
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Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
 Quote:
Has anyone else while exploring the depths of Lesser Magicand Greater Magic experienced something quite similar?


Of course, the world is a strange and wierd place. Now my question, why do you think this is?
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#267880 - 08/28/07 09:22 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Lustfire Offline


Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 5
Because the human mind is a strange and weird place!

Ritual is fantasy, and I think a successful one turns those fantasized desires into reality.

Perhaps I am incorrect, and if I am, do not refrain from correcting me, but isn't all the mumbo-jumbo in a Satanic ritual just an emotional device to make your mind motivated? Or at least be cleansed from compulsions?

Probably the reason why most Satanists, including this thread starter, see patterns, pieces fitting together, and "weird" sometimes "scary" stuff is because we have reached a dimension in our heads that changes the way we view things. A third world I guess...

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#267881 - 08/28/07 09:24 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Lustfire]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
 Originally Posted By: Lustfire


Perhaps I am incorrect, and if I am, do not refrain from correcting me, but isn't all the mumbo-jumbo in a Satanic ritual just an emotional device to make your mind motivated? Or at least be cleansed from compulsions?

There is much more. Only you can prove it to yourself, though. ;\)



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"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#267898 - 08/29/07 12:10 AM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Phineas]
Phineas Offline
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Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
In reply to my comment above (Only you can prove it to yourself) I have been asked in private to share some of my experiences and to provide a glimpse of what more there may be to ritual.

It is natural for those of little or no experience to want to ask this. And it has been asked many, many times.

To begin with, my personal experiences are just that, so I will not reveal any. Besides, how could anyone other than myself validate the results of my rituals? Even if there were a way, it would create confusion, and lead to pointless debating.

If I told you I conducted a ritual to obtain $10,000.00 and two weeks later I received a job offer with a salary increase of $4,000.00 a year, would the ritual be a success or a failure? The original amount did not appear as a whole. I could argue that in 2 1/2 years I would have that $10,000.00. Others may argue that it fell short.

Only YOU can validate your enterprises. And you acomplish that by doing , not debating it, not day dreaming about it, not rationalizing it, not arguing in circles, just do it!

And you do it by following the steps Dr. LaVey explained in The Satanic Bible .

Need more? Read Dr. LaVey's essays "The Combination Lock Principle" & "Ravings from Tartarus". All contained in The Devil's Notebook.

However, you can read all you want about swimming, but nothing will be accomplished untill you jump in the water.

There are real, tangible results to be had. But you won't know untill you do prove it to yourself.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#267901 - 08/29/07 01:46 AM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
Of course, the world is a strange and wierd place. Now my question, why do you think this is?


That's a good question.

Perhaps because there is much more to the world than most folks realize.

I remember reading about Dr. LaVey mentioning parking spots becoming available to him that usually would be impossible to get or running into people he was just thinking about.

I am sure after these events became quite common place they didn't seem quite so strange anymore. I don't think Dr. LaVey ever lost his enthusiasm whenever such things would happen to him however.
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#267902 - 08/29/07 01:52 AM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Phineas]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

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Posts: 1649
Magister Phineas, thank you very much for this post.

 Quote:
However, you can read all you want about swimming, but nothing will be accomplished untill you jump in the water.


I love that statement!


Edited by Unknown (08/29/07 02:19 AM)
Edit Reason: Added a different smiley face.
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#267904 - 08/29/07 02:00 AM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Lustfire]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
Probably the reason why most Satanists, including this thread starter, see patterns, pieces fitting together, and "weird" sometimes "scary" stuff is because we have reached a dimension in our heads that changes the way we view things. A third world I guess...


Well, your perception of the world truly does begin to shift that's for sure.
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#267951 - 08/29/07 01:18 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Unknown]
Phineas Offline
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Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
You are very welcome.
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#267960 - 08/29/07 03:14 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Lustfire]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Originally Posted By: Lustfire

Ritual is fantasy, and I think a successful one turns those fantasized desires into reality.

...but isn't all the mumbo-jumbo in a Satanic ritual just an emotional device to make your mind motivated? Or at least be cleansed from compulsions?

Probably the reason why most Satanists, including this thread starter, see patterns, pieces fitting together, and "weird" sometimes "scary" stuff is because we have reached a dimension in our heads that changes the way we view things. A third world I guess...


I very much agree with this notion.

My favorite definition of religion is by Clliford Greetz (1973) who defined it thusly:
A system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic.

I remain highly skeptical when it comes to the idea of brain waves whooshing through the air into the subconscious of someone a great distance away.
I had many "amazing coincidences" in my life- but I am still far from attributing them to some supernatural force.

A person who's conscious is balanced with his subconscious, and both are balanced with the outside world- will experience plenty of "good luck" and pleasant "coincidences" in his/her life.
Finding the balance is the trick (and ritual happens to be a very good trick, mind you).

As to lesser magic- it isn't really "magic", so if you know how to employ it- why should the outcomes be of any surprise?
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#267970 - 08/29/07 04:03 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: The_Lightning]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning


I remain highly skeptical when it comes to the idea of brain waves whooshing through the air into the subconscious of someone a great distance away.



What experiments have you conducted in this area?
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#267976 - 08/29/07 04:20 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Phineas]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
I have not- I do not have the means to do so.
And I do not know of any credible, scientific works proving that brain-waves reach farther than an inch from one's skull.
That's why I remain highly skeptical.

I have done successful rituals of every sort in the past…
And still I do not believe in any supernatural force.
I would rather stick to the more scientific ("down-to-earth") aspect of ritual; a psychodrama...

I keep an open mind of course- I am willing to change my opinion if anyone can prove (via scientific measures) otherwise.
Until then- I'm skeptical.
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#267981 - 08/29/07 04:49 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: The_Lightning]
Phineas Offline
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Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
Who said anything about supernatural forces? I didn't, and Dr. LaVey certainly didn't. Hint: subsitute supernatural for supernormal.

And no one mentioned brainwaves either.

You don't have the means to conduct an experiment? What exactly do you think is necessary to do this, other than you and another person?

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#267989 - 08/29/07 05:08 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Phineas]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
Who said anything about supernatural forces? I didn't, and Dr. LaVey certainly didn't. Hint: subsitute supernatural for supernormal.


Here's a great essay written by the High Priest that really explains the difference between "supernatural" myth and the super-normal.

Satanism: The Feared Religion.
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#267996 - 08/29/07 05:31 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Phineas]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Actually, my initial phrasing was "supernormal" but it wouldn't translate- so I used "supernatural" instead, which does translate (into Hebrew) properly into what I meant.
But now I looked in Webster dictionary and acknowledged the difference; indeed, I should have used "supernormal".

Anyhow-
If I am to use the scientific method in my experiment of proving that via ritual one has [immediate] effect on minds of people who are not present, I will need tools that I don't think anyone has.
I do think that when two people are in the same space, they subconsciously perceive more than they are conscious of and react to it… however, when they are not in the same space--- hmm… I just don't know.

I think that deciding that something is true (in a scientific sense) based solely on subjective experience that has more than one explanation- is just… incorrect. Or in other words: a belief.


Edited by The_Lightning (08/29/07 05:34 PM)
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#268030 - 08/29/07 10:10 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: The_Lightning]
Phineas Offline
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Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
Very well then. If you ever decide you have the tools to conduct this experiment, do share your findings here.

Onwards.
_________________________
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#268031 - 08/29/07 10:29 PM A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Entangled Minds by Dean Radin summarizes over one hundred years of serious application of the scientific method to the so-called "paranormal".

There is a vast difference between following the popular assumptions of noisy "scientists" as opposed to examining the actual research conducted and the evidence-based conclusions drawn as a consequence of that research.

We have an entire forum downstairs for Church members that discusses Greater Magic and while anyone is welcome to ignore this issue or personally regard it only as psychodrama, that does not mean there is nothing to it.

It only means that you will not be testing it or using it.

And you certainly do not have to.

Lesser Magic in Satanism is so broad and encompassing in its effectiveness that Greater Magic can be so relegated by the Satanist to mere ceremony or psychodrama if desired.

Real sorcerers have no need for apprentices.

They just use what they know. ;\)

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#268034 - 08/29/07 11:24 PM Re: Satanic Ritual. [Re: Lustfire]
Jack_Lantern Offline
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Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
 Quote:
Ritual is fantasy, and I think a successful one turns those fantasized desires into reality.


I agree, I would see no point in it otherwise.

 Quote:
Perhaps I am incorrect, and if I am, do not refrain from correcting me, but isn't all the mumbo-jumbo in a Satanic ritual just an emotional device to make your mind motivated?


Sure. Hypermotivated even. Toward what? You decide. How much can you accomplish in that state? Only you can say. What good is it if you are a master of the universe and can't pay the rent? Not much. What good is it if brings you everything you desire? It is a pearl without price. To me the ultimate question of whether or not it is mere psychodrama or more is an intellectualization of a non-issue. If you use it, and you are a successful animal, the ultimate mechanism, or reality, or whatever, is irrelevant.
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#268083 - 08/30/07 07:30 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Nemo]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
while anyone is welcome to ignore this issue or personally regard it only as psychodrama, that does not mean there is nothing to it.

It only means that you will not be testing it or using it.


The fact that I don't believe in greater magic working in a "supernormal" manner does not prevent me from using it.
And I never said there is nothing to it- I said I am highly skeptical there is something "supernormal" to it. But I'm sure willing to test it if I'll know how!
Anyhow, I will read this book you recommended Magister, thank you. I'll even review it in the book section if it changes my point of view. I'm just a bit skeptical about all those "scientists" since I already stumbled many times on such "scientific experiments" and found them highly lacking.
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#268126 - 08/30/07 02:54 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Felstorm Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
 Quote:
I'm just a bit skeptical about all those "scientists" since I already stumbled many times on such "scientific experiments" and found them highly lacking.


Then conduct your own.

Personal experience trumps the evidence.

Do not be surprised if you get what you desire.

Be specific.
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#268137 - 08/30/07 03:44 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Felstorm]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
Then conduct your own.

As I already wrote…
I would LOVE to test it--- If I had the right tools (whatever they are) to do so.

 Quote:
Personal experience trumps the evidence.


Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.

 Quote:
Do not be surprised if you get what you desire.

Be specific.


Interesting thing (as a side note, if you already mentioned it);
One usually gets what he desires out of [not-very-scientific] experiments if one is specific enough. The brain has great tricks of rearranging its perception of reality in a manner that would make strong beliefs seem factual. You build your frame of reference- and the rest just fits into place. Known psychological phenomenon.
That's the very reason I don't and won't trust subjective experiments as truthful.
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#268180 - 08/30/07 08:19 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Jack_Lantern Offline
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Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
 Quote:
If I had the right tools (whatever they are) to do so.


If you don't know what they are, then how do you know that you are lacking them?

 Quote:
Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.


No one has purely objective means. All data and analysis is emic in nature. Develope your own methods, determine what you wish to prove to yourself, and collect data. If the data analysis matches your theoretical values, awsome. If it doesn't, make up a new theory and collect more data. If the theoretical values match your data analysis, awsome. If not, repeat until it does. You should reach completion in around ten years. Let me know how it goes.
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#268186 - 08/30/07 09:16 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Jack_Lantern]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
If you don't know what they are, then how do you know that you are lacking them?


Do YOU know what the right tools are to check if higher magic is "supernormal" or not??
I have no idea what kind of device can check that.


 Quote:
\No one has purely objective means. All data and analysis is emic in nature. Develope your own methods, determine what you wish to prove to yourself, and collect data.


Argh… I hate this kind of arguments.
Religious people always use it to prove God cannot be disproved.
Yeah- right, it cannot be…… if the scientific method is disregarded and everything is passed as "merely subjective"—so yeah, when nothing is real, everything can be proved (or at least remain un-disproved).
Great. =S

 Quote:
If not, repeat until it does. You should reach completion in around ten years. Let me know how it goes.


I really hope I will never complete a process of making my world so subjective that everything is beyond doubt.
I dislike solipsism.
But hey- whatever floats your boat… I guess.
To each his own.
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#268218 - 08/31/07 04:33 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11560
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.


Personally, I think this contradicts the whole essence of magic as used within Satanism. The ritual chamber is a place where one "objectively enters the subjective state". Outside of the ritual chamber, I'd certainly consider myself a skeptic and intellectual thinker. But there's a benefit to having a separate environment for controlled sessions of "intellectual decompression".

 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
As to lesser magic- it isn't really "magic",


Why not? The Satanic Bible gives an explicit definition of what the book means by "magic", and I'd say lesser magic fits that definition too.
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#268219 - 08/31/07 05:03 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Bill_M]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
 Quote:
Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.


Personally, I think this contradicts the whole essence of magic as used within Satanism. The ritual chamber is a place where one "objectively enters the subjective state". Outside of the ritual chamber, I'd certainly consider myself a skeptic and intellectual thinker. But there's a benefit to having a separate environment for controlled sessions of "intellectual decompression".


There is a difference between playing pretend in the ritual chamber and actually holding the belief [outside the ritual chamber, which is what I meant] that whatever happened inside there was definitely "supernormal" and objectively real.
I think you completely agree with me on this point Warlock.

 Quote:
Why not? The Satanic Bible gives an explicit definition of what the book means by "magic", and I'd say lesser magic fits that definition too.


….I meant the supernormal kind of "magic".
Lesser magic is completely explainable by scientific means.
But if you really want to call me on it- so ok, I'm sorry, you're right- I shouldn’t have put it that way.

But seriously, I don't understand what I'm being argued about.
All I've ever said is that I'm highly skeptical of how "supernormal" greater magic is.
I didn't even say I *believe* there is nothing supernormal about greater magic.

So why does everyone seem upset with my statements?


Edited by The_Lightning (08/31/07 05:04 AM)
Edit Reason: clarification
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#268226 - 08/31/07 06:34 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
ABZU Offline
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Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
 Quote:

There is a difference between playing pretend in the ritual chamber and actually holding the belief [outside the ritual chamber, which is what I meant] that whatever happened inside there was definitely "supernormal" and objectively real.


Ok, this discussion has “downstairs” written all over it… but.

What happens when you are outside of ritual walking along, and all of a sudden you see the result of a ritual’s success beyond what could be attributed to mere self transformative psychodrama. Something like, a person rattles off word for word the dream you scripted for them to have. The usefulness of self transformative psychodrama is wonderful in and of itself, but when a result pops up outside of the temporary “suspension of disbelief” your rational mind can not help but accept that something is happening there. Having this sort of thing happen often enough will create a concrete assurance that the “supernormal” is happening, but not necessarily the “supernatural”. Sometimes our preconceived assumptions of our physical limits just need adjustment. You can test where the limits are by trying it out yourself. Some people claim to see results, and some don’t. It chaps me just as bad to see a self proclaimed “Great Magician” that lives in the trailer park with his mom, as it does to see someone claiming that Greater Magic cannot work without ever checking it thoroughly. It’s the lazy route both ways.
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#268249 - 08/31/07 09:10 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: ABZU]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
Something like, a person rattles off word for word the dream you scripted for them to have


Though look, even in this case, there are a few things to take into consideration;
Extracting dreams out of a person is like hypnotism- there is a good chance that the hypnotist will (unconsciously even) transform the other person's memory by using suggestions.
To know that indeed the person had a dream that you never even suggested vaguely- there must be no direction from your side. Especially if the person aforementioned wants to impress you or please you.
Let's say it does work, anyhow, then there is another part to it-
How can you know that you didn't implant the dream, in a supernormal way, at the minute you met the person- and not during the ritual.
Maybe it isn't possible to plant dreams in minds of people who are not present, but it is possible to plant them in people who are. This will have to be checked using a phone, while the other person is far away.

Also, some dreams are just likely to be dreamt. Sexual dreams involving you shouldn't come as a surprise if you've been seducing that person, for example.
Dreams of failure and distraction are likely to come to a person who attracts it- the subconscious if far wiser than its owner; it knows when the conscious it being destructive and will react to it in the forms of dreams.
Lovers will most likely have similar dreams, since the emotional and intellectual connection is so strong, that the subconscious processes may be the same as well.

There is a lot to consider when it comes to experiencing "freaky coincidences"- and testing it should be as close as possible to the scientific method.
I want to enhance, again, the fact that I am completely pro testing it, and that I will (I did try that [plating dreams], by the way, a couple of time in the past- but never with seriously unbelievable results. But I'll try it again, anyhow- to be sure).. and that I never claimed the supernormal does not occur.
I just dislike the idea of people hurrying to conclusion based on experiences that might have more than one explanation. That's all.
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#268285 - 08/31/07 12:58 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
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Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> Do YOU know what the right tools are to check if higher magic is "supernormal" or not?? <<

It's quite simple as I see it.

When it happens right here and now then there is nothing super normal about it. It is a perfectly natural attribute of what is possible in this world. Even if we cannot fully explain the machinations at work.

There are no super natural realms. Only the carnal universe in which we live.
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#268295 - 08/31/07 01:51 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Evil_Eve Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
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Agreed Priest.

Thank you for you insight on this topic.
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#268299 - 08/31/07 02:05 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
There are no super natural realms. Only the carnal universe in which we live.


Of course!!

Maybe I should clarify:
I used the term "supernormal" to merely refer to that which has yet to be proven by science… like sub-atomically transferring thoughts from one mind to the other (as some quantum theorists claim may be possible).

And since I don't have tools to test quantum theory and prove anything like the aforementioned scientifically- all I can do are some half-assed tests… which I'll never accept as completely credible.
In one sentence: I support science and oppose belief.
~laughing~
And I'm still not sure how I got myself into an argument about this =D

ANYHOW-
Happy Birthday Reverend!

P.S
My grammar is probably a bit fucked-up, my apologies if it is.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268301 - 08/31/07 02:13 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10573
Loc: England
>> And since I don't have tools to test quantum theory and prove anything like the aforementioned scientifically- all I can do are some half-assed tests… which I'll never accept as completely credible.
In one sentence: I support science and oppose belief.
~laughing~
And I'm still not sure how I got myself into an argument about this =D <<

I actually realised what you meant, Miss.

There is no argument.

Except that I would add that I don't care about explanations. The results of magic speak for themselves and are all that really matter.

One does not look a gift-horse in the mouth.

Thank you for the B'day wishes.
_________________________
"u.v.ray blends the dark street poetry of Nelson Algren with the swagger and style of a young Iggy Pop."

www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#268306 - 08/31/07 02:49 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning


I would LOVE to test it--- If I had the right tools (whatever they are) to do so.


Tools are not as important as the mindset involved.

Disbelief is also a belief.

 Quote:
Only if that personal experience can be proven by objective means... which, as I already pointed out, I don't have.


Set a clear goal.

Say, "I want $200.00 of United States currency to pay for my CoS Membership."

Do a Greed ritual.

Forget about it... and wait.

When you get the $200 dollars, there is your objective evidence.

You can stick it in your wallet.

 Quote:
Interesting thing (as a side note, if you already mentioned it);
One usually gets what he desires out of [not-very-scientific] experiments if one is specific enough. The brain has great tricks of rearranging its perception of reality in a manner that would make strong beliefs seem factual. You build your frame of reference- and the rest just fits into place. Known psychological phenomenon.
That's the very reason I don't and won't trust subjective experiments as truthful.


Without saying too much...

Dismissing it all as "tricks of the mind" and "psychological backflipping" will only serve to nullfy any magic you DO work.

It HAS been scientifically proven that people that adamantly disbelieve in psi ability score STATISTICALLY lower on psi tests. This means that their viewpoint is altering their results. In other words: The lack of evidence is evidence of psi phenomenon.

And if psi phenomenon, or the ability to alter chance statistical tests with the mind, is possible... what ELSE is possible?

Perhaps nothing... perhaps it is all just one big dream and you are really stuck in The Matrix.

"There is no spoon, Neo"


Edited by Felstorm (08/31/07 02:50 PM)
_________________________
"Many people would sooner die than think - in fact, they do so." ~ Bertrand Russell

"“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.” ~ Nikola Tesla

Are You One of Us?

The Glorious Infernal Empire

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#268307 - 08/31/07 02:50 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
I actually realised what you meant, Miss.

There is no argument.

=D
Oops! sorry Sir. I was on the roll of defending my case there ;D


But I too would add that I hardly analyze it myself- I just remain skeptical about the whole lot and celebrate every time it works (and it does).
Still, an argument about it is interesting every once in a [long] while ;]

Cheers!
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268310 - 08/31/07 03:42 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Felstorm]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Did you even read my posts?

 Quote:
Dismissing it all as "tricks of the mind" and "psychological backflipping" will only serve to nullfy any magic you DO work.


1. I never said I DO NOT BELIVE in the possibility of "supernormal"/ that I BELIVE the "supernormal" DOES NOT exist. I said I'm a SKEPTIC.

2. I already preformed a lot of successful workings. Take the last one for example;
Two days ago I used higher magic to get the job I wanted. Yesterday I got it.
My explanation? Simple;
There are always goddamn job openings in the end of August.
Plus, I'm charming- I made them want to hire me.

MAYBE
The higher-magic did help.
Who the hell knows?
I sure don't.
Why should I believe it was due to that?
Better yet- why should I change my skeptical view if everything's been working great for me?
I don't fancy fixing what isn't broken.

 Quote:
It HAS been scientifically proven that people that adamantly disbelieve in psi ability score STATISTICALLY lower on psi tests. This means that their viewpoint is altering their results. In other words: The lack of evidence is evidence of psi phenomenon.


I heard so much criticism on those "scientific" tests- that I got bored with it.
But if you have a truly-beyond-doubt credible source- I would thank you very much for sharing it.

 Quote:
Perhaps nothing... perhaps it is all just one big dream and you are really stuck in The Matrix.

"There is no spoon, Neo"


Human batteries are extremely inefficient.

;P

=D
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268326 - 08/31/07 05:52 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Bill_M]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Alright, I feel the urge to hop in after reading all this, because it's something that interests me as well.

As you say, Greater Magic is subjective in nature. Wouldn't it be obvious enough then that it is therefore unable to be actually tested via scientific means and methods?

If it can be tested in such a manner, then obviously it has an objective element. That objective element has clearly never been satisfactorily demonstrated or explained, if it exists. All the speculation about quantum physics and brainwaves and whatnot that are frequently bandied about as relevant to Greater Magic remain totally unsubstantiated. If someone cares to actually demonstrate this objective element, I encourage you to claim your Nobel Prize now.

It is a huge mistake to ignore the fact that subjective experience is not objectively (read, scientifically) demonstrable. That's a major breach of logic.

Also, suspension of disbelief itself suggests that outside of ritual, you do indeed have disbelief - is it not therefore true that it's totally unnecessary to know or care how magic works, or to even give it any thought at all outside the ritual chamber? The terminology itself seems to suggest pretty clearly that ritual is meant to be suspension of analysis - not that it is required that you do this constantly and fruitlessly claim that you know how the whole thing works.

I don't know how it works. I have no reason to really believe that it has more than a psychological cause. Even if that really is the extent of it, it in no way devalues magic - man has a need for both dogma and ritual, as Dr. LaVey himself said. On a final note - the alleged "experiments" others refer to really don't deserve to be called that, since they violate pretty much every protocol of experiment known to man, and involve no solid analysis. Felstorm's example above (a ritual to get $200) is the very definition of what isn't an experiment. Seriously chief, I'll get $200 and a whole lot more on Thursday. That ain't magic. That's busting my ass at work.

(PS - this isn't directed at Warlock BillM, just his comments were a nice springboard for mine.)
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#268327 - 08/31/07 05:58 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
-.-

Damn.
I write a bunch of replies tying to make my point--- you write one and smash the nail so hard on the head it's probably in Chine by now.

I feel so inadequate ='



Now seriously- thank you for the clarification.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268331 - 08/31/07 06:06 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
"I don't know how it works." Similar to the bumblebee?
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#268333 - 08/31/07 06:31 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Phineas]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
This post is not about magic, but I would reconsider using the bumblebee as an example. The story is a myth from bad understanding of physics.

Flight of the Bumblebee

Lasers illuminate the Flight of the Bumblebee

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#268334 - 08/31/07 06:31 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: ABZU]
Josef_K Offline


Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Ireland
I don't post here very often, so I hope no one will mind if I jump in here, as this is a very interesting topic and one that involves a "stumbling block" if you will to my complete interpretation of Satanism.

My own interpretation of Greater magic is the same as that of Lustfire and The_Lightning; that the ritual serves as pure psychodrama. I have no problem with this at all. The idea that real world events can be altered by our activities in the ritual chamber is one that I do have difficulty accepting. I will confess that I have never carried out a Satanic ritual and thus the rest of this post is purely conjecture, and I completely accept and agree with anyone who believes my views are non-valid for that very reason. However if someone could come back to me on these views I would be very grateful.

I am a scientist by training and also in my career, and I believe that the scientific method is the ultimate guide to testing our world around us. There are testable absolutes, and science is no place for relativism. The speed of light to a stationary observer in California is the same to a stationary observer in Finland; no matter the intelligence, education or even physical and mental state of the observer.

 Originally Posted By: ABZU


What happens when you are outside of ritual walking along, and all of a sudden you see the result of a ritual’s success beyond what could be attributed to mere self transformative psychodrama. Something like, a person rattles off word for word the dream you scripted for them to have. The usefulness of self transformative psychodrama is wonderful in and of itself, but when a result pops up outside of the temporary “suspension of disbelief” your rational mind can not help but accept that something is happening there. Having this sort of thing happen often enough will create a concrete assurance that the “supernormal” is happening, but not necessarily the “supernatural”. Sometimes our preconceived assumptions of our physical limits just need adjustment. You can test where the limits are by trying it out yourself.


From my point of view, these sorts of events would not be enough to prove that a ritual worked. We humans are pattern recognition machines, and the sheer psychological power of a satanic ritual would be enough to send me unconsciously seeking for little signs of its working in my everyday life, whether or not I actually believed it could occur. For example, I do not believe in ghosts; in fact I'm certain they do not exist. However ask me to spend a night in a creaky old "haunted" house alone and I wouldn't be able to stop myself from being slightly unnerved.

It is for this reason that I believe we have to tread carefully when using personal experience to prove something. There needs to be a definite objectivity of measurements to prove that no personal bias affects the results.

To prove that a ritual had worked, I would need double blind tests of the ritual, from various individuals. I am aware how absurd and impractical this would be and I'd have no idea how to go about it, but I'm using this as an example of the rigors demanded by scientific experiment.

Also, reading the Balance Factor section of the Book of Belial, I became aware that the impossible is not possible with greater magic. It seems that (and perhaps my understanding of this section was not fully clear, so forgive me if I am incorrect) you can only achieve in a ritual that which you are capable of in real life. For example, I would assume that no matter how hard I tried in a ritual, I would find it impossible to make myself fly, as this violates both human anatomy and physics. It would be silly of me to expect such from a ritual. I would have more success carrying out a ritual for more achievable ends. And, if we can achieve these things without the help of greater magic; surely it’s better to admit that we did it without it? That we are in fact successful, enterprising, talented individuals who can achieve many, many things when we put our minds to it?

If I have gone too far and am poking about in things best left for the members section; please forgive me.

Edit: Pardon my silliness, LeviathanXIII's post clears up quite a bit of my issues. I'll be sure to not hit "post" next time without checking no one else has answred my question while I was typing.


Edited by Josef_K (08/31/07 06:37 PM)
_________________________
Come forth Lazarus! And he came fifth and lost the job.

God has been expelled. I think he knows when he's on a losing wicket.

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#268340 - 08/31/07 07:19 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Josef_K]
ABZU Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
We could all learn a great deal from a pit boss at a casino.
_________________________
Warlock ABZU

Church of Satan

"As I have stated, the paradox where more people are "talking" dark forces up, down, and sideways, but fewer than ever are actually living as night people, provokes speculation. The moral here is that when everybody's talking, very few are doing. More time is spent comparing notes with aficionados than in enjoying the hobby per se."
A.S.L. / T.D.N.

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#268342 - 08/31/07 08:07 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Phineas]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Aside from that science myth, I do get your analogy, and a Greater Magic FAQ I wrote (and was published in German) says exactly that. To use my analogy, most of us don't know how an internal combustion engine works, but we still drive cars and know they need gas.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#268365 - 09/01/07 12:05 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: John.Doe]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
And this is why the analogy holds true. Science says one thing one day, then someone else adds something different a bit later. Meanwhile, our little test subject, totally unaware of any of this, goes ahead and does what it does.

That is the point.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#268374 - 09/01/07 01:47 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
That is not what I was saying at all. What a waste of time.
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#268379 - 09/01/07 02:58 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: Phineas]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
I didn't see it from that point of view, makes sense now. Thank you for the explanation!

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#268401 - 09/01/07 08:13 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: John.Doe]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
And thank you for providing the links!
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#268530 - 09/02/07 02:58 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
 Quote:
MAYBE
The higher-magic did help.
Who the hell knows?
I sure don't.
Why should I believe it was due to that?
...


I suggest reading The Combinatin Lock Principle and The Ravings from Tartarus in the book called The Devil's Notebook. This will explain the Satanic Magic from Anton LaVey's view. If you have already read them, then please disregard my suggestion. The point to this is you have gotten what you wanted in the end and you became happy did you not? That is the purpose for the Lesser and Greater Magic; to obtain your goals in life according to your will and therefore making the most out of life. Be happy that you got what you asked for, know that it was the power of magic, and be careful of what you are being skeptical about.

 Quote:
Better yet- why should I change my skeptical view if everything's been working great for me?


"Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained." - 7th Satanic Rule of the Earth
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#268541 - 09/02/07 05:42 AM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: LordofDarkness]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
I suggest reading The Combinatin Lock Principle and The Ravings from Tartarus in the book called The Devil's Notebook. This will explain the Satanic Magic from Anton LaVey's view. If you have already read them, then please disregard my suggestion.


~disregarding it~

 Quote:
The point to this is you have gotten what you wanted in the end and you became happy did you not? That is the purpose for the Lesser and Greater Magic; to obtain your goals in life according to your will and therefore making the most out of life.


Nah! get out of here! \:o

 Quote:
know that it was the power of magic, and be careful of what you are being skeptical about


Yes, you're right, skepticism is very dangerous.
I should watch out or I might find myself being skewered by a unicorn when I walk down the street.

 Quote:
"Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained." - 7th Satanic Rule of the Earth


Look at magic is a self-transformative psychodrama for a minute (if it's not too hard for you)- it's meant to rid you of any emotions that might obstruct you from getting your goals. If you suddenly get all self-conscious, insecure, anxious and stressed when it comes to real life application of that psychodrama because you don't trust it worked- the whole point of it was totally lost!
I acknowledge the fact that there is no room for insecurity when it comes down to getting what I want and holding on to it.
Homo homini lupus. You're either the hunter or the hunted; weakness it not an option.

There is a good reason why it is phrased "acknowledge the power of magic" and not "believe in magic".
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268606 - 09/02/07 01:22 PM An even simpler suggestion. [Re: The_Lightning]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Just stop using Greater Magic altogether.

Or if you do it at all, consider it pure ceremony for fun.

Don't use it for to seek any specific outcome and don't use it with any expectation that it could be "real".

Anton LaVey was quite clear that if you use magic and then refuse to acknowledge the results that you gained were from magic that you will lose all that you gained.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

Looks to me as though you are doing exactly that here.

Why bother setting yourself up that way if magic turns out to be real after all?

For the present just relegate real magic to the trashbin and use Lesser Magic alone. Clearly that is already working for you so why create possible problems for yourself?

If real magic is real, then you have been warned by one of the world's most famous and pragmatic sorcerers to not deny its results if you ever get any results.

Any technology can create problems is if it is misused. If you are going to use Greater Magic and do not follow the instructions you could regret the results.

Why do that to you?

Seriously. Why?

If magic is bunk it does not matter that you explain away the results you get after the fact.

If magic is real then it does.

So if you still have to explain it away please consider not using it in the first place.

This is not an idle suggestion!

Just a friendly and simpler suggestion.

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#268610 - 09/02/07 01:34 PM Some assembly required. [Re: The_Lightning]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
There is a good reason why it is phrased "acknowledge the power of magic" and not "believe in magic".


Just a reminder.

The warning given about how to treat the results of magic was:

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

If real magic is bunk then the second statement is unimportant and untrue both.

If real magic is real it is a clear warning.

Always read the instructions before hitting the "start" button.

Batteries not included. ;\)

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#268611 - 09/02/07 01:37 PM My answer. [Re: Unknown]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Why, yes, I have!

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#268635 - 09/02/07 03:13 PM Re: An even simpler suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
What if Judeo-Christian God is real?

Then I'm surely going to hell for misusing the life he gave me.

But no, I don't think I'll change my life because of that vague possibility.

I do not have the ability to believe.
I need objective proof.
When there are objective explanations far simpler to a matter in hand, there is no reason believing in baseless complex theories.

I completely and utterly acknowledge the power of ritual, and the power I have to change future events using this unusual method.
I just don't believe!
LaVey never mentioned anything about having to believe.

And again, I must say, I do not dwell on the results I get. I do not explain them to myself- I just accept my good fortune as a pleasant surprise- like LaVey suggested should be done. I do the ritual and forget about it- I don't expect it to work, I don't even care if it does since I already got all those negative emotions out- exactly like LaVey suggested.

Everything I wrote in this thread is a one time analysis meant to bring forward the complete needlessness of harboring belief. I enjoy playing (from time to time and when I can) the devil's advocate where it comes to belief.
I do not usually sit and wonder about things gone good. The only thing that matters is if it works or not.


I trust my own skeptic path is the correct one for me, but I thank you anyhow for your kind advice Magister.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268640 - 09/02/07 03:43 PM You lie. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Quote:
I do not have the ability to believe.


Right now, you disbelieve certain statements made about magic, on the grounds of lack of proof.

This disbelief of yours is simply a belief that the statements are false.

So if...

You believe that the statements are false.

then...

You believe.

Why do you believe this, without any proof?

Surely better to try to find proof, and then either:

a) find, it, and know it is true
b) not find it, and know you still can't be sure

And thus not believe anything, either way, without proof?

This is not like Pascal's Wager at all. This is just epistemology!

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#268642 - 09/02/07 03:56 PM Re: You lie. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
=D

This is fun.


ok.

 Quote:
Right now, you disbelieve certain statements made about magic, on the grounds of lack of proof.

This disbelief of yours is simply a belief that something is not so.

You believe that the statements are false.

You believe.

Why do you believe this, without any proof?


Simple, Warlock, I DON'T.
Did I ever say those statements are FALSE?
Did I?
No. I didn't.
I said there is no reason to believe they are true.

I've said it a million times already, and yet, nobody wants to listen. Why? this is beyond me.

 Quote:
Surely better to try to find proof, and then either:

a) find, it, and know it is true
b) not find it, and know you still can't be sure

And thus not believe anything, either way, without proof?


I did, got option B and continued to not believe anything.

I bet you my shoes (and as a JAP, I love shoes) that you yourself did not find scientific proof of the supernormal.



Just to be fair; I should let everyone know that I don't plan on abandoning logic any time soon.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268646 - 09/02/07 04:33 PM Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
Simple, Warlock, I DON'T.
Did I ever say those statements are FALSE?
Did I?
No. I didn't.


That you consider those statements to be false is inferred by you equating it to Pascal's Wager, bearing in mind your Satanic religious standpoint.

From your response, I gather that this was unintentional on your part, so I'll leave that issue there and move on to the other issue you raised:

 Quote:
I bet you my shoes (and as a JAP, I love shoes) that you yourself did not find scientific proof of the supernormal.


It is said that the difference between science and magic lies in the knowledge of the observer. This is true.

Things that were once considered "magical" or "supernormal", can become verified like any other advanced technology.

For personal knowledge, personal verification is what is required. It is not necessary for everybody to know and accept something for it to be true.

If I find proof of something, it is, ipso facto, science (Latin "scientia", knowledge).

One of several reasons* James Randi's money is safe; if someone succeeds in demonstrating magic under lab conditions, then they have not demonstrated magic, but science. It doesn't matter if Albus Dumbledore himself is whipping out his wand and turning furniture into animals for Randi's entertainment; the definition of magic includes being unproven, so proving it means it is now classified as a science.

There can be no proven magic that is still "magic", by definition. It's technology once it's proven! But that's a mere matter of what it's called. The thing itself is the same.

I'm quite comfortable with using technology not known to most, and calling it magic since that is what it is to most people ;\)

 Quote:
Just to be fair; I should let everyone know that I don't plan on abandoning logic any time soon.


Pleased to hear it.

* The other reason is of course that he himself is the ultimate judge of whether or not conditions are met. One one hand, this is only fair, as it is his money (assuming he even has it). On the other hand, it is rather unfair, as it means that no matter what is demonstrated, he can still say "No, not happy" and thus not owe the person $1,000,000.

He also reserves the right to turn anyone away at any stage, and exercises that right frequently, if he thinks a claim is too "absurd". So in essence he is saying with one breath "show me" and then with another breath "I don't want to even see it" when someone offers to show him. Talk about hypocritical self-deceit!

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#268653 - 09/02/07 05:20 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
"There is no worse a blind man (or woman) than one who chooses not to see." - Magister Sprague
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#268658 - 09/02/07 05:39 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
That you consider those statements to be false is inferred by you equating it to Pascal's Wager, bearing in mind your Satanic religious standpoint.


Ok, some hard-core philosophy;

I know that God cannot be disproved. However, science has found simpler explanations to what has been considered "godly" once, and came up with proof that makes the existence of such being highly doubtful.

I know magic cannot be disproved. However, science found many simpler explanations to a person's success- which makes the existence of a supernormal force highly doubtful.

The only method a human being can trust to be real in common reality is the scientific one, since it constantly produces the same results.
Of course, there has always been a fight between those who cry to forsake logic, and those who see it as the only guideline by which to live. I'm with the latter.

Both God and the supernormal are highly unlikely cases- in this way are the same. However the application Satanic ritual actually suits human needs and has proved to empower persons using it, while the other proved the opposite.
So unlike using God's tools (aka- being religious) that gain me nothing, I would rather use the "supernormal" tools, that may not be objectively real, but I gain a lot from using them anyhow.

Ok, I'm done with that =P
moving on:

 Quote:
If I find proof of something, it is, ipso facto, science (Latin "scientia", knowledge).


This is not the full definition of what science means, as you probably well know;
3 a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method.
(Webster dictionary)

The word "general" would imply that personal truth is not science, and the "especially as obtained and tested through scientific method" would imply that testing it by other means isn't scientific.

Of course, once the scientific rules behind something are revealed, it is no longer magic. But until they are, it is only logical to stay highly skeptical of everything, don't you think?

And I'll bet you again, that if a human being demonstrated the application of scientific rules that Randi has yet to discover, he would be fair enough to give him/her the money before proceeding to turn the magic into science.
Farther more, it is a matter of efficiency that he will logically sift through all the applications he gets- after all, he doesn’t have all the time in the world.

P.S
How can Dumbledore prove to Randi that magic is real if he is dead?? You silly goose -.-

;\)
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268665 - 09/02/07 06:32 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Phoenix_Inferno Offline
Banned

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 135
Loc: Maryland, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Linguascelesta
For personal knowledge, personal verification is what is required. It is not necessary for everybody to know and accept something for it to be true.


Wonderfully stated. The only person that can varify your experiences is YOU. No one else.

By the way, no one is asking you to abandon your logic. to do such a thing would be insane! Just don't be closed minded to possibilities, or you will set yourself up for disappointment most surely.


Edited by Phoenix_Inferno (09/02/07 06:33 PM)
_________________________
Love. Laugh. Live. Forever.
Hail Satan!
=================================================
"There are no coincidences...only the illusion of coincidence"--V for Vendetta

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#268667 - 09/02/07 06:44 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Phoenix_Inferno]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
 Quote:
The only person that can varify your experiences is YOU.


Unless you think that you're Napolean Bonaparte or Julius Ceasar.

Let's not be so dramatic. ;\)

Context is required, or this whole topic will start rolling down a giant slippery slope.






Edited by Poetaster (09/02/07 06:52 PM)
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#268668 - 09/02/07 06:51 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning

I know that God cannot be disproved. However, science has found simpler explanations to what has been considered "godly" once, and came up with proof that makes the existence of such being highly doubtful.

I know magic cannot be disproved. However, science found many simpler explanations to a person's success- which makes the existence of a supernormal force highly doubtful.


Exactly, Ockham's Razor.

Now, here's a premise for consideration:

Anything can be explained in a "magical" or "scientific" way.

So, we (if we are reasonable) apply Ockham's razor and go with the simplest explanation as being the most likely.

Now, let us say that I am at home one afternoon drinking tea and minding My own business, when suddenly there is a flash and a bang, and you appear in My living room. You display psychokinetic ability, levitating My teacup, and immolate an armchair using a conjured fireball, yea, like unto those conjured in fantasy RPGs. You then click your heels together three times, and vanish back to Kansas Israel.

Now, is this the kind of demonstration of magic that would convince a skeptic? Well, if that wouldn't, I certainly don't know what would.

But then one who has their mind made up already (like Randi) would say that I hallucinated your presence, and that this (by coincidence) occurred at the same time as a trick in which My teacup was lifted by unseen wires that I had not noticed while I was drinking from it (or maybe I hallucinated that too), and a hidden incendiary device ignited in My armchair.

All of a sudden, Ockham's Razor has been replaced with an electric razor. An explanation slightly less challenging to a belief system, slightly more complicated, and about equally incredible.

 Quote:
The only method a human being can trust to be real in common reality is the scientific one, since it constantly produces the same results.


And if you repeated the above display of magic ten times? Other than Me rapidly running out of furniture and getting nervous about My cup of tea, it would not achieve anything. The "magical" and "scientific" explanations are both repeatable.

 Quote:
However the application Satanic ritual actually suits human needs and has proved to empower persons using it, while the other proved the opposite.
So unlike using God's tools (aka- being religious) that gain me nothing, I would rather use the "supernormal" tools, that may not be objectively real, but I gain a lot from using them anyhow.


I'm all for pragmatic truth.

 Quote:
 Quote:
If I find proof of something, it is, ipso facto, science (Latin "scientia", knowledge).


This is not the full definition of what science means, as you probably well know;
3 a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method.
(Webster dictionary)

The word "general" would imply that personal truth is not science,


No it wouldn't. If the word "general" here implies that the general population must know it, and not just one person or a select few, then most people considered to be "leading scientists" are in fact practicing witchcraft, since they clearly cannot be dealing in science, since the stuff with which they're dealing is not known to the general public, and is a "personal truth" for the person who has just discovered it.

So "general" here does not mean "popular", it means "can be applied generally".

 Quote:
and the "especially as obtained and tested through scientific method" would imply that testing it by other means isn't scientific.


No it wouldn't. Note the use of "especially" rather than "exclusively".

 Quote:
Of course, once the scientific rules behind something are revealed, it is no longer magic. But until they are, it is only logical to stay highly skeptical of everything, don't you think?


So I should not trust My computer to work, for example, because the scientific rules behind it are not fully revealed to Me?

I accept that I do not know how it works, why it works, or whether it will continue to work. To that extent, I am skeptical.

However, I continue to type away, because, much as inductive reasoning may strictly speaking be an epistemological fallacy, it can be quite useful in terms of pragmatic truth.

The computer has always worked so far, never ceased to work yet (I love Macs), so I work on the assumption that it will probably continue to work. And lo, it does!

* Some would call it science (they understand how it works)
* I might call it magic (I don't understand how it works, and it remains unproven to Me)
- But the important thing is, it works, and I know how to use it! That is pragmatic truth.

 Quote:
And I'll bet you again, that if a human being demonstrated the application of scientific rules that Randi has yet to discover, he would be fair enough to give him/her the money before proceeding to turn the magic into science.


However, life is not fair, and nor is Randi's challenge ;\)

 Quote:
P.S
How can Dumbledore prove to Randi that magic is real if he is dead?? You silly goose -.-

;\)


You have Me there

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#268683 - 09/02/07 08:01 PM Re: A simple suggestion [Re: The_Lightning]
LordofDarkness Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 757
Loc: Tennessee, U.S.
 Quote:
Look at magic is a self-transformative psychodrama for a minute... it's meant to rid you of any emotions that might obstruct you from getting your goals. If you suddenly get all self-conscious, insecure, anxious and stressed when it comes to real life application of that psychodrama because you don't trust it worked- the whole point of it was totally lost!
I acknowledge the fact that there is no room for insecurity when it comes down to getting what I want and holding on to it...


That makes sense, however LaVey did say in the Satanic Bible that some of us will believe it is just applied psychology (hence the 'self-transformative psychodrama') until they come to an event that is based on no scientific finding. Wether you find the Satanic Magic as an actual dark force or you just see it as psychodrama is up to you. To each his own. ;\)

 Quote:
You're either the hunter or the hunted; weakness it not an option.


I Agree.
_________________________

"Any group or collective, large or small, is only a number of individuals. A group can have no rights other than the rights of its individual members." - Ayn Rand

"Laws are there for a reason. You may not agree with them but you gotta obey them. Nobody wants to be in court." - Sonic the Hedgehog

"Satanism is not a white light religion; it is a religion of the flesh, the mundane, the carnal - all of which are ruled by Satan, the personification of the Left Hand Path." - Magus LaVey

"Test Everything, Believe Nothing." -

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#268706 - 09/03/07 12:07 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
So, am I a true believer because I require proof of things?

You're not making sense. You're saying that a skeptic is taking something on faith, which is clever but bullshit.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#268711 - 09/03/07 12:49 AM Re: My answer. [Re: Nemo]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
Glad to hear it Magister.

I think your book(s) are some results of very real magic working in your life! ;\)
_________________________









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#268727 - 09/03/07 04:50 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
Now, let us say that I am at home one afternoon drinking tea and minding My own business, when suddenly there is a flash and a bang, and you appear in My living room. You display psychokinetic ability, levitating My teacup, and immolate an armchair using a conjured fireball, yea, like unto those conjured in fantasy RPGs. You then click your heels together three times, and vanish back to Kansas Israel.


I was thinking about it.
In that case, it comes back to how likely it is that you are not indeed hallucinating.
Maybe someone put something in your tea…?
It is less likely that you are crazy if more people around you see it too- since it lowers the possibility of it being merely neurological. (but then maybe someone put something in the water everyone's drinking? So all are delusional?!)

But your whole argument of "what if" isn't very fair in debate.
I mean…. Such arguments stray so far away from the likely- that it's really absurd.
We can just cut to the chase and rule everything out and say that you might be hallucinating me too- that there is nothing BUT the world you make up in your own mind.
But that's like debating with a wall, and it's no fun =P

 Quote:
No it wouldn't. If the word "general" here implies that the general population must know it, and not just one person or a select few, then most people considered to be "leading scientists" are in fact practicing witchcraft, since they clearly cannot be dealing in science, since the stuff with which they're dealing is not known to the general public, and is a "personal truth" for the person who has just discovered it.

So "general" here does not mean "popular", it means "can be applied generally".


 Quote:
No it wouldn't. Note the use of "especially" rather than "exclusively".


Oh my…. That was a really twisted argument.

The term science is *especially* used to refer to things proved by scientific methods.
Some people, like you, use it in a different meaning. THAT'S what it means.

Since scientists CAN prove what they do by scientific methods, that makes what they do objective (scientifically speaking). Just because most people can't understand what they do, it doesn't mean that it is subjective. It is a general truth, since it isn't s personal one.

 Quote:
So I should not trust My computer to work, for example, because the scientific rules behind it are not fully revealed to Me?


WHAT?!
There ARE rules, that where proved using the scientific method and are understood by some percent of the population which makes these computers.
I don't know how to build a car, but it's not magic to me- it's simply something I don't know how to do.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268735 - 09/03/07 06:01 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Are you a scientist?
_________________________
"If a man empties his purse into his head no one can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -Benjamin Franklin

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#268738 - 09/03/07 08:21 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Phineas]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
 Originally Posted By: Phineas
"There is no worse a blind man (or woman) than one who chooses not to see." - Magister Sprague


My new favourite quote.

Thank you Magister!
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#268749 - 09/03/07 09:16 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Jack_Lantern]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
How does that damn question contribute to this discussion at all?

It's an interesting discussion all by itself; there's really no need to interject smart-ass comments. ;\)





Edited by Poetaster (09/03/07 09:20 AM)
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#268754 - 09/03/07 09:48 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Jack_Lantern]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
Are you a scientist?


Why, do I have to be a scientist in order to understand the principles of the scientific method?


….
It's like asking someone who criticized a book he read if he is an author;
completely irrelevant.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268758 - 09/03/07 10:15 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
You're saying that a skeptic is taking something on faith, which is clever but bullshit.


I said no such thing.

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#268760 - 09/03/07 10:25 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
We can just cut to the chase and rule everything out and say that you might be hallucinating me too- that there is nothing BUT the world you make up in your own mind.
But that's like debating with a wall, and it's no fun =P


So, out of various possible explanations regarding the nature of reality, we will dismiss one possibility because in your opinion it isn't as much fun?

 Quote:
The term science is *especially* used to refer to things proved by scientific methods.
Some people, like you, use it in a different meaning. THAT'S what it means.


Dictionaries are based on how words are used.

 Quote:
Since scientists CAN prove what they do by scientific methods,


They can't prove it to others, due to the delusion / deception possibility. This brings us back to the necessity of personal experience to know something (as opposed to merely believe it or act on the pragmatic assumption that it is true).

 Quote:
There ARE rules, that where proved using the scientific method and are understood by some percent of the population which makes these computers.


Allegedly.

I don't know that, although I readily accept that it is almost certainly true. You may consider this being pedantic; I consider it being honest.

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#268764 - 09/03/07 10:59 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
[This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, but seemed to fit well at this point in the thread.]


Why must magic and science be mutually exclusive?

Where is there any shred of evidence which even tends to show that greater magic cannot function in the same reality we explain through science?

It seems very likely to me that magic could be a normal phenomenon or mechanism of the quantum reality which we are just beginning to almost understand.

In my opinion, those who use magic are ahead of the game. It's existence is proven to them by their personal success in employing it. Further consensus or external validation is after-the-fact, and irrelevant to the original event.

On the other hand, those pretentious know-it-alls who are somehow certain that magic does not exist(yet have NO way to back up this claim) are wasting time on a futile endeavor.

Why bother trying to disprove something which you cannot, when you are already completely removed from the possibility of that thing existing in the first place?

I don't even wish to "debate" with such minds, because they are so dead-set in their own cocksurety that any meaningful result which might normally be obtained from a challenging conversation is forever spoilt by their stubborn and counter-productive pride.


_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#268765 - 09/03/07 11:05 AM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
ShadowDragon Offline



Registered: 03/30/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Where I have Always Been
Because this is not (and I will refrain from breaking things down) the Forum for such discussions, I will keep things simple.

Real Results requires Real Effort.
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Shadow

To Light a Candle,is to Cast a Shadow.

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#268775 - 09/03/07 12:13 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
I didn't say I dismiss the possibility- I said it's no fun discussing it because it leads you nowhere.

 Quote:
Dictionaries are based on how words are used.


That's right. And it is especially used by people in a manner different than yours.

Anyhow, what are you arguing? That what you believe in is actually science?
Well, it's not. Trying to call it such is twisting the truth to fit your perspective.
A lot of lunatics may be a 100% sure that the little green men they see are scientific.
Well, they aren't.

You do indeed have a naughty use of language, Linguascelesta.

 Quote:
They can't prove it to others, due to the delusion / deception possibility. This brings us back to the necessity of personal experience to know something (as opposed to merely believe it or act on the pragmatic assumption that it is true).


One should see what works for him, and use it on a pragmatic level- nowhere in there is belief necessary. It is a lot wiser to doubt, and just do what works.

Now, because I can't know if magic works on some quantum-physical level, and I DO know that ritual works on a psychological level, I decide to use it.
My decisions of how to use my time and view my world are first of all logical.
If it happens to be that, unknowingly, I also use a scientific rule yet to have been discovered—yay for me.
Even if it is a caterpillar, you can't call it a butterfly until it has wings.

 Quote:
I don't know that, although I readily accept that it is almost certainly true.

Sure, because the simple explanation is most likely to be the right one.
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268776 - 09/03/07 12:18 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
I very much agree with everything you've written.

(well, maybe not including the "It seems very likely to me that magic could be a normal phenomenon or mechanism of the quantum reality". I do agree that it IS somewhat likely…. is it Very likely? hmm....I'm not so sure)
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#268784 - 09/03/07 01:03 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Originally Posted By: The_Lightning
I didn't say I dismiss the possibility- I said it's no fun discussing it because it leads you nowhere.


In your opinion.

 Quote:
 Quote:
Dictionaries are based on how words are used.


That's right. And it is especially used by people in a manner different than yours.


And this is important because the majority will always be best-informed?

 Quote:
Anyhow, what are you arguing? That what you believe in is actually science?


I am a skeptic, and as such I believe nothing.

 Quote:
A lot of lunatics may be a 100% sure that the little green men they see are scientific.
Well, they aren't.


What lunatics?
How do you define them as such?
how do you know that they are such?
What little green men?
What do you mean by scientific when referring to said little green men?
How do you know they aren't?

In short, and I mean this with no offence, what are you on about here?

 Quote:
One should see what works for him, and use it on a pragmatic level- nowhere in there is belief necessary. It is a lot wiser to doubt, and just do what works.


Right; that's something we're in agreement upon regarding this matter

 Quote:
Now, because I can't know if magic works on some quantum-physical level, and I DO know that ritual works on a psychological level, I decide to use it.
My decisions of how to use my time and view my world are first of all logical.
If it happens to be that, unknowingly, I also use a scientific rule yet to have been discovered—yay for me.


And a second thing! We're on a roll. Soon we'll be in complete agreement about everything \:o

 Quote:
Even if it is a caterpillar, you can't call it a butterfly until it has wings.


Right. However, you do not need the world at large to acknowledge the wings before calling it a butterfly. It is sufficient for you to see them and say to yourself "Aha, a butterfly".

 Quote:
 Quote:
I don't know that, although I readily accept that it is almost certainly true.

Sure, because the simple explanation is most likely to be the right one.


Of course. I would like to underline the "most likely", though ;\)

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#268790 - 09/03/07 01:29 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Phoenix_Inferno Offline
Banned

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 135
Loc: Maryland, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Linguascelesta
And a second thing! We're on a roll. Soon we'll be in complete agreement about everything


Ah, but darling, I don't think we can ALL be in agreement on EVERYTHING. However, I feel your points are truely valid ones, given my limited knowledge thus far on the subject at hand. Personally, reality and what it is in general, I base on my own experiences, however, as you well know, I can't go into detail about that here.

 Originally Posted By: The_Lightening
Even if it is a caterpillar, you can't call it a butterfly until it has wings.


 Originally Posted By: Linguascelesta
Right. However, you do not need the world at large to acknowledge the wings before calling it a butterfly. It is sufficient for you to see them and say to yourself "Aha, a butterfly".


A very well stated point by you both. Often times, the general public need not know, nor wil they understand if you try to explain such matters to them, those things which you have personally varified for yourself. If you have validated something beyond a doubt for yourself, then whatever that is, is in essance,true, even if no one else acknowledges or can understand it.

Here I would do well with an example:

For example, if I was lying in bed one night and heard a voice calling my name, felt someone touching my face and holding my hand (granted, while all still concious and aware ) saying, "I will help you," most people in general would think me a Lunatic. I Myself might even question this event and whether or not it really occured at all. Perhaps it was just a fluke, and given I am skeptical, I'm not going to rightly believe what happened right off the bat. Now, some may have this same experience and say to themselves, "Someone was definately here with me that night." This person, in essance, will somehow have validated this experience and view it as true.

Others, like Myself, may need or require more evidence. Reality is all a matter of personal validation in my opinion, and is different for every individual. My experiences will not be the same as Linguascelesta's, nor will yours be the same as his. To validate the above mentioned experience as being true, I Myself would require this to happen (or something similar to it) more than once. How many times I need is determined in my own head, and so it is for every other person. I may require it to happen twenty times, while the person next door might only require it happening once to see it as being true and valid. Some may simply view this as a fluke altogether and not see it as true at all, and I am perfectly content to let them think what they wish about me and my mental status, however, I'd never try to explain this situation to a member of the general public, unless I feel that person has the capacity to understand, or at least to accept the possibility that it did in fact occur.

YOU must validate your own reality. While you may be more likely to believe someone else's validations, given your lack of knowledge of a particular subject, this does not mmean that you can't go out and seek more information to validate it for yourself if that is required. I believe my computer is working because it has not done otherwise thus far. If it does stop working, I believe that it can be fixed, because I have seen this done before. Now, someone who knows nothing about computers might not think it can be fixed at all, until they experience someone having fixed it for them. they required more information in order to validate this truth. Does that make sense?

I do hope so. I'm trying to the best of my ability to add to this discussion, though I am in general fear that this thread in and of itself has gotten way out of hand.


Edited by Phoenix_Inferno (09/03/07 01:49 PM)
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#268796 - 09/03/07 01:59 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
You pulled a straw man by implying that Lightning was something other than skeptical, which is not what she said. She said she doubts, not that she disbelieves.

So yes, you did - by setting up something that was not said, then refuting it. It's not a valid argument in my book.

And just to add my two cents:

He who is slow to believe all things is possessed of great wisdom.

I don't accept something unless I see it plain as day. Not think, not believe I perceive, but see it, like a rusty crowbar smashing me in the face kind of see it. I accept crowbars as real because my skeleton says they're pretty damn real.

Since I'm pretty happy with my life and see no urgent need to change my worldview, if someone comes along saying they know something that will dramatically enhance my life, I'm going to say they're full of shit until they prove it. I'm not going to jump even one hurdle to "test" someone else's claims, since I'm pleased as punch right where I'm at and the burden lies on them. You can argue that the burden does not lie on them since according to their claim I am the one to gain, but in fact it does, since they wouldn't be telling me about it in the first place if they didn't have something to gain from it. I don't believe in altruism, so they are profiting by my acceptance of their view of they'd stay silent, so let them prove it.

It is often said that Satanists don't have to change views to "become" Satanists, we just see ourselves in The Satanic Bible and that's that. How very true that is. I changed not one thing about myself after reading The Satanic Bible, and any changes in view I've had in my life have been made on my own initiative upon receiving new information (confirmed the hard way), not because I was promised anything.

Thus, if you accept something as real that isn't as substantial as my crowbar, you risk false belief - and worse, you risk ignoring the crowbar that may be about to crush some things you're both sentimentally and literally attached to.

So back to the point at hand - I don't strictly believe in magic, nor do I know what it is, what it does, or anything else. I know I've seen it presumably work, and I know I can work out in my mind ways that it can work, but as I've said elsewhere, I feel no need to find explanation or anything else for it. Magister Nemo commented above on Dr. LaVey's statement that you should not deny magic or risk losing everything you have gained - and yet, isn't that 100% consistent with the view that magic is psychological in nature, since psychosomatic powers are generally known to only work in the absence of any doubt whatsoever? Additionally, doesn't that imply that suspension of disbelief as I've described it, and leaving magic in the chamber where it belongs, is a perfectly valid approach? I don't think about magic on a minute to minute basis, and I've found that's distinctly for the best.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#268798 - 09/03/07 02:03 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
 Quote:
I didn't say I dismiss the possibility- I said it's no fun discussing it because it leads you nowhere.


In your opinion.



Ok, I'm going to twist it completely around;
There is nothing we can know to be purely factual, and therefore everything we perceive as fact is actually merely a belief.

Ok.

Then we're both believers, and that's it.
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#268799 - 09/03/07 02:10 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Linguascelesta Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 2352
Loc: Europa
 Quote:
Ok, I'm going to twist it completely around;
There is nothing we can know to be purely factual, and therefore everything we perceive as fact is actually merely a belief.


Actually, as I mentioned, any given experience is definitely real. We might be completely wrong about the cause of that experience, but the experience is real.

If I see an elephant in this room, there may or may not be an elephant, but I know I'm experiencing the image of it regardless.

So there are some things that can be known.

 Quote:
Then we're both believers, and that's it.


We're both pragmatists, albeit with partly differing views on what constitutes knowledge.

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#268802 - 09/03/07 02:27 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Linguascelesta]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
Actually, as I mentioned, any given experience is definitely real. We might be completely wrong about the cause of that experience, but the experience is real.

If I see an elephant in this room, there may or may not be an elephant, but I know I'm experiencing the image of it regardless.


Ah, well… as long as you don't claim your experiences to be real outside your subjective world (aka- scientific facts)--- I'm content.
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#268817 - 09/03/07 04:19 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Poetaster]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Well, it is just that I hear the most about science from people who don't do science as a profession.

In fact, I hear a lot about various professional endevours from people that don't take part in similar endevours.

So when I hear someone speak so eloquently on the scientific method, I just have to ask. It may be smart-assed, but that is not a sufficient condition to declare it invalid.
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#268818 - 09/03/07 04:23 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
 Quote:
Why, do I have to be a scientist in order to understand the principles of the scientific method?


Well, yeah, it kind of helps. That is why most science courses at a university have a "Lab" section attached to them. You have to do chemistry to learn chemistry. You have to do physics to learn physics, etc.
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#268820 - 09/03/07 04:35 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Jack_Lantern]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
Actually, I am a psychology student, and as such I was obliged to learn about the scientific method and how it is applied in psychology.

So yeah, I know what I'm talking about.
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#268825 - 09/03/07 04:57 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
Since I'm pretty happy with my life and see no urgent need to change my worldview, if someone comes along saying they know something that will dramatically enhance my life, I'm going to say they're full of shit until they prove it. I'm not going to jump even one hurdle to "test" someone else's claims, since I'm pleased as punch right where I'm at and the burden lies on them.


That is an excellent point Reverend Leviathan. Here is a story that demonstrates the concept beautifully.

An older gentleman meets a younger chap and tells him he can teach him how to drive a car. The much younger chap asks the older gentleman to prove it. The older gentleman points to a red volvo and says, "that's my care there". The younger chap grins and politely asks to see the gentleman's driving record. The older man walks off frustrated because he has quite a sore driving record.

Not everything is always as it seems. ;\)
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#268828 - 09/03/07 05:07 PM Re: Epistemology, and Magic. [Re: The_Lightning]
Jack_Lantern Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Ok, just checking.
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#268872 - 09/03/07 09:27 PM Your new religion [Re: The_Lightning]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
If you do not wish to respect the possibility that Anton LaVey knew what he was talking about when it comes to Greater Magic then you are certainly welcome to take that position.

Of course those of us who knew him in person might hold a different viewpoint regarding what we feel that he actually did know.

Now that you have dispensed with the 7th Rule of the Eleven Rules of the Earth as written by Anton LaVey, pray tell what other elements of Satanism do you intend to cast out?

Of course what you will be left is something other than Satanism.

I do hope you enjoy your new religion ...whatever it is.

;\)

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#268874 - 09/03/07 09:34 PM Re: Your new religion [Re: Nemo]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Magister, I believe she said,

I completely and utterly acknowledge the power of ritual, and the power I have to change future events using this unusual method.

LaVey never described how magic worked (as in by what mechanism), though in the Satanic Bible he does refer to it as psychodrama.

If this makes someone not a Satanist, what am I doing here?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#268875 - 09/03/07 09:39 PM Since you ask... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Magister Nemo commented above on Dr. LaVey's statement that you should not deny magic or risk losing everything you have gained - and yet, isn't that 100% consistent with the view that magic is psychological in nature, since psychosomatic powers are generally known to only work in the absence of any doubt whatsoever? Additionally, doesn't that imply that suspension of disbelief as I've described it, and leaving magic in the chamber where it belongs, is a perfectly valid approach? I don't think about magic on a minute to minute basis, and I've found that's distinctly for the best.


I think that the Bedtrock of Satanism includes the Eleven Rules of the Earth and that Anton Szandor LaVey offered serious guidance there regarding Greater Magic.

Greater Magic is optional for the Satanist but the Seventh Rule is explicitly clear with regard to how the Satanist needs to treat the results of Greater Magic.

Bedrock is bedrock.

Satanism is what it is.

With regard to any other issue such that Greater Magic can feel compatible with this or that view of reality, the results are what count.


Anton LaVey told us in the Seventh Rule in no uncertain terms that this was what needed to be done to obtain sustainable results.

His Rule of the Earth matches my own experience and I am unwilling to reinterpret Satanism against what Anton LaVey wrote.

If I gave any other impression here I certainly apologize for that.

Satanism includes Greater Magic as an option.

If someone intends to use it to obtain real results in the real world they have been warned by Anton LaVey with regard to how to treat those results.

To do otherwise is to abandon at least one element of Satanism.

That is what I was attempting to communicate here.

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#268877 - 09/03/07 09:48 PM Re: Since you ask... [Re: Nemo]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Oh, I most certainly agree that LaVey made certain things crystal clear. However, I strongly contend that LaVey was very careful about what he didn't say as well - because he didn't want his foot in his mouth later. I'm only speculating but I'd wager that Herr Doktor knew that idle guesses as to the reasons for magic were not only dangerous (because to this day the causative effect remains unknown - magic is still magic, not technology), but possibly counterproductive. Overanalysis is the enemy of magic, which is why I have totally ignored discussions on what makes magic work.

Man needs both ritual and dogma. He has enough technology.

...and ironically, to that end I am skeptical of any claims as to how magic works. ;\)
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#268882 - 09/03/07 10:06 PM Re: Your new religion [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The Seventh Law is what it is.

If someone does not wish to use Greater Magic then they certainly don't have to.

If they do and they then deny that the results they achieve with Greater Magic then this flies in opposition to the Seventh Rule of the Eleven Rules of the Earth that Anton LaVey wrote and is bedrock to this religion, as is plain to see.

A Satanist does not have to use Greater Magic with the intent to produce change in the real world (apart from internal psychological effects). Ceremony and psychodrama are alternative or additional goals for this practice.

IF HE DOES seek to use real magic however then the guidance has been offered by the founder of our religion:

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

The Doktor did not say you "might" lose what you obtained.

He wrote that you will lose what you obtained.

That seems to me to be crystal clear guidance with regard to how to treat the results of efforts at Greater Magic.

Again, no Satanist needs to perform Greater Magic with the intent of producing real external results.

However, this piece of Satanist bedrock remains explicitly clear: IF you deny the results you get then you will lose all you have obtained.

Any Satanist who does not feel comfortable with real magic need only not practice it. Lesser Magic (psychological manipulation) and ceremony for its own sake or to influence one's personal psychological outlook are always there and more than sufficient in themselves to produce what we want to achieve in the world.

However, if a Satanist is going to perform Greater Magic with the intent to produce measurable results in the real world and then denies that the power of magic obtained those results, they are defying the clear warning and specific advice of Anton LaVey.

I was merely warning this person to consider the clear advice given by the founder of Satanism for those who intend to use real magic.

If you wish to discuss this downstairs further we certainly can. This issue is so fundamental that I must be missing something that you are seeing about this issue.

In any case, bedrock is bedrock.

If someone is going to use Greater Magic and then denies that the results they obtained were due to magic, they will lose all they obtained according to Anton LaVey.

I agree with him.

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#268905 - 09/04/07 12:06 AM Re: Your new religion [Re: Nemo]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
If I may, I would also like to point out that Dr. LaVey had conversations on this subject with some of those who knew him. He may not have published what was said, but he sure hinted at it in his writings.

I happen to be quite certain of this! ;\)
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


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