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#271501 - 09/15/07 09:07 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Caesar]
GildedLily Offline


Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Wet Coast, Canada


Also worth mentioning...the Jewish world in that day was filled with all kinds of Messiahs. [/quote]

"Oi! 'E's the messiah! I should know, I've seen a few!" (Life of Brian)

My favorite response to the question 'do you believe in Jesus' has always been what a friend of mine replied-" Yeah, there's a million guys named Jesus in Brazil- have you never spoken to a Spanish person or what?"

Whether you believe the person existed is kind of moot, isn't it? Rather, do you believe in their story, their myth, their 'holiness'? Jesus likely existed, as did Mohammed and Buddha, I'm not going to contest that-waste of time.
As to hearing god...well, there's lots of interesting toxins in hot climes, temporal lobe epilepsy, who knows?
I'm willing to accept that there have been some guys at the cusp of idealogical, religious and political revolutions who have good (or merely captivating) ideas and the charisma to make people listen.
But this classes Hitler with Jesus.

L
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#276314 - 10/10/07 12:46 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: GildedLily]
DexRex Offline


Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 92
Loc: UK
 Originally Posted By: GildedLily


As to hearing god...well, there's lots of interesting toxins in hot climes, temporal lobe epilepsy, who knows?
L


Talking of toxins,I read an interesting book called 'The Moses Legacy' which examined the real historical candidates for Moses. In the author (I forget his name) mentions that in some interpretations of the OT Text, 'The Burning Bush' is actually 'The Bush That Burns', which has a grammatically different meaning. Now, the bush refered to is known to have berries that, when eaten, produce a chilli-like burning sensation and, wait for it, hallucinagenic effects!

And Lo, Behold. Ye world's first recorded acid trip produceth 3 major world religions.
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#276327 - 10/10/07 02:40 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: DexRex]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
Is it too late to put in that the Psalms are almost completely identical to a text atrributed to Akhenaten? They were a series of love poems to his beloved Aten.
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#276334 - 10/10/07 03:17 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Mr Sam]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11566
Loc: New England, USA
I believe it was Mark Twain who called reading the Bible "the best cure for Christianity". I agree.

 Originally Posted By: Mr Sam
I don't think it really matters, the Satan trying to overthrow God story is definitely a part of the Christian Mythology, whether it is in their Bible or created afterwards.

But I think this is the quote that suggests he did:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


The "Lucifer" here (and it's the only place in the entire Bible where that name appears) doesn't actually refer to Satan at all. The original Hebrew has "heyel" for the word, which means "morning star". That's the planet Venus, which looks like a bright star. The passage talks about a king's fall from reign and comparing to the descent of Venus in the night sky.

When St. Jerome translated the Hebrew to Latin, he didn't know what word to use, so he used "lucifer" (lower-case "L") which means "bringer/bearer of light". The "l" was capitalized in the King James version for some reason.

For that matter, there is no inidcation that the serpent in Eden, Satan, Lucifer, the devil, Beelzebub, the dragon, or the Beast are all supposed to be the same character. I think Christianity largely adopted the duality idea from Zoroastrianism.
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#276336 - 10/10/07 03:19 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Discipline]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11566
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Discipline
Who!?

Maybe he meant The Lord of Coke and Hot Dogs.
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#276337 - 10/10/07 03:24 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: IRI]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
If i where a roman emperor i would love my enemys to just lay down their arms and let me conquer them!

Isnt that what "turn the other cheek" truly means?

Those romans where pretty clever ;\)
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#276396 - 10/10/07 12:16 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Bill_M]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Ah, then I am absolutely fine with that. \:D

For a second I had no idea what he was talking about. \:\/
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#276399 - 10/10/07 12:26 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: shadowraven213]
Evil_Eve Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
 Originally Posted By: shadowraven213
If i where a roman emperor i would love my enemys to just lay down their arms and let me conquer them!

Isnt that what "turn the other cheek" truly means?

Those romans where pretty clever ;\)


And if I were Santa Claus I would love free milk and cookies...

(Rolls eyes).
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#276434 - 10/10/07 05:33 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Evil_Eve]
Rodim Offline


Registered: 03/18/07
Posts: 239
bullseye. they have so much faith in this "illusion" savior, that you simply cant argue. its their choice though, to believe in emptiness.
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#276488 - 10/10/07 10:04 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Rodim]
DexRex Offline


Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 92
Loc: UK
You don't need to argue with them - I ask them for some proof and just look disappointed when the fail to provide it. Let them feel the failures that they are without expending any heartbeats of your own!
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#276494 - 10/10/07 10:25 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: DexRex]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
The best way to win an argument against a Christian is simply this: The burden of proof lies on the person trying to prove something exists, rather than a person disproving that something exists. They can't, so there's no real reason to talk to them about God.
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#276498 - 10/10/07 10:42 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Bill_M]
August-Wolfe Offline


Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 144
Loc: Texas, USA
 Originally Posted By: Bill_M
I think Christianity largely adopted the duality idea from Zoroastrianism.


You're absolutely correct. When the Hebrews were captive in Persia, generations were exposed to Zoroastrianism, and its characteristic forces of total good, and total evil, but they were "equal". In the OT book of Isaiah (pre-Persian captivity), Yahweh is quoted as taking credit for ALL good AND ALL evil upon men, both blessings AND curses. But while in Persia they learned of a scapegoat! Much later, the manufacturers of Hebrew religion, realizing Jehovah cannot be represented as "co-equal" with evil, concocted the idea that the evil "god" would have to be a created being, making him "lesser" that Jehovah, hence the Lucifer story becoming the "origins of Satan".
Most scholars believe the passage was written about the Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar, who had suffered an embarrassing and utter fall from power.


Edited by AugustWolfe (10/10/07 11:10 PM)
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#276501 - 10/10/07 10:57 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: IRI]
August-Wolfe Offline


Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 144
Loc: Texas, USA
The collective manuscripts known as the Old and New Testaments were written by various authors who were heavily influenced by the greater world around them, Greek figuring very heavily during the time of Hellenistic influence, but Babylon, Persia, Assyria and Egypt (heavily influenced NT stories and images of Madonna and child) all were plagiarised by and borrowed from by the Hebrews in their various places of captivity over the many centuries. There is very little that is originally Jewish where the whole of Judaeo/Christian religion is concerned. I believe Mithras to be the first "Christ type".

The earlier Hebrews gathered the writings that held great traditional reverence and respect: the Septuagent (first 5 books of the modern OT), the greater and lesser prophets, and the Torah (the expanding of and expounding upon of Moses's law)and considered them their holy writ, then those sciptures along with "A.D." writings were later gathered at the Council of Nicea in the 4th century A.D. and Church fathers/scholars and other pompous officials determined which texts were "truly inspired by God"

Hence, the modern "canon" of scripture was established. Of course that is the very abbreviated version. ;\)


Edited by AugustWolfe (10/10/07 11:14 PM)
_________________________
"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.".....Thomas Jefferson

"I have as much authority as the Pope - I just don't have as many people who believe it." ...George Carlin

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#276530 - 10/11/07 02:38 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Discipline]
Maqlu Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 1673
I was just wondering why he wasn't banned.

But the Lord of Coke and Hot Dogs is fine by me. ;\)

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#276548 - 10/11/07 04:58 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: VictorWolf]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11566
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: VictorWolf
The best way to win an argument against a Christian is simply this: The burden of proof lies on the person trying to prove something exists,

I think you can take it a step further: if it's all supposed to be a matter of "faith" and personal revelation, then there's no point in them trying to "prove" their beliefs to somebody.
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Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

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