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#276550 - 10/11/07 05:12 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: August-Wolfe]
Bill_M Offline
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Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11546
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: AugustWolfe
When the Hebrews were captive in Persia, generations were exposed to Zoroastrianism, and its characteristic forces of total good, and total evil, but they were "equal".

Christians though seem way more bent on this God/Satan duality. I wonder why they further developed this heavily enforced idea of Satan as the scapegoat, which you don't really find in Judaism. Satan doesn't really play much of a role in Judaism, as they're more about adhering to a convenant with YHWH. I heard somebody summarize that Judaism views Satan as somebody who's still acting on YHWH's will (kind of like a henchman), rather than some bad guy trying to compete for souls.
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#276573 - 10/11/07 08:30 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Bill_M]
Zaftig Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
 Quote:
Satan doesn't really play much of a role in Judaism, as they're more about adhering to a convenant with YHWH.


Yes...and no. Mainstream Judaism is not overly focused on an evil personified figure (Satan). However, there is evidence of smaller sects of Judaism that had more apocalyptic thinking (the Dead Sea Scroll community is one of them).

I'm not fully knowledgeble of the many splinter groups, but my guess would be that if they differed philosophically, and were pressured because of it, then a demonizing of your political opponents occurs naturaly. Christanity (and every other group)today functions much the same way, the fringe groups become increasingly apocalyptic the more pressure is but upon them (even by other Christian groups.)

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#276599 - 10/11/07 10:48 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Maqlu]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
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Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Maqlu
I was just wondering why he wasn't banned.






I thought Jesus WAS banned.


Edited by roho_the_rooster (10/11/07 10:49 AM)
Edit Reason: busy putting condoms...comidents...mustard on my hot dog.
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#276618 - 10/11/07 01:34 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Zaftig]
VictorWolf Offline
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Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
Jeffrey Burton Russell (as much as he seems hung up on good and evil) covered the influence of Zoroaster on Judaism nicely in The Prince of Darkness.

I wouldn't say Mithra was the first Christ type. I always figured the Egyptians had the first Christ types.
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#276697 - 10/11/07 10:27 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Bill_M]
August-Wolfe Offline


Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 144
Loc: Texas, USA
The one curious mention of "Satan" in the OT (Book of Job) has him in the role of just one of many Angelic "servants" of Yahweh, filing before him with reports of their service that "day". He seems to be a denizen of "heaven" here, oddly enough, as it is millenia after the supposed fall of Lucifer (which pre-supposes the Garden of Eden).

Elaine Pagels wrote an excellent book called "The Origins of Satan" in which the word is taken in its original "Adversary" context and largely is used to identify anyone who opposed the Hebrews.
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#276702 - 10/11/07 11:10 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Bill_M]
Caesar Offline

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Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
This is generally held in the more respectable christian circles I have known. I remember once hearing the phrase, "He (Satan) is God's Devil".
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#276706 - 10/11/07 11:28 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: August-Wolfe]
Caesar Offline

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Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
Christian apologetics would say that the religions (before christ) that are very similar in concept, are that way by design, so that when the "real deal" came along, it wouldn't seem quite as strange. They also might contend that all religions of the world are perversions or distortions of the original true religion they all left behind since dispersing across the globe.

Not nitpicking, but the Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (not the five books of Moses, which is the Torah--I could be wrong but I think the exposition you mentioned is called the Mishna). The 1st Council of Nicea did create the "canon of scripture", but who do you think arranged that fracas and was the final approval? (insert Roman smiley)
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#276716 - 10/12/07 12:26 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: August-Wolfe]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: AugustWolfe
Elaine Pagels wrote an excellent book called "The Origins of Satan" in which the word is taken in its original "Adversary" context and largely is used to identify anyone who opposed the Hebrews.


Pagels is also very good at pointing out what different agendas went into the writings in the new testament. I came across "Satan a biography" by Henry Ansgar Kelly. Despite the pop-religion/pop-occult title Kelly is a professor of English at the University of California and seems to have done his research. Anyway his argument is that the word "Satan" refers to "adversary", but also that it is not THE satan but A satan i.e. it describes a role or function withing the celestial hierarcy. He gives a couple of examples from the old testament where angels act as satans on behalf of god.
I haven't finished the book, it's a bit too 'heavy' for me to read on the train to and from work, so I won't make any judgment on it as a whole yet.
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#276762 - 10/12/07 10:18 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Caesar]
August-Wolfe Offline


Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 144
Loc: Texas, USA
You gave me cause to dig into this! The "Pentateuch", or Torah, is the first 5 books of the present OT. Initially, the Septuagint(or LXX) was the translation into Greek of the Pentateuch performed by 72 Jewish scholars at the request of Ptolemy II Philadelphus, 285–246 BCE, and then the rest was translated over the next two centuries. But you are correct - the Septuagint is the collective OT translated into Greek.

From Sir Godfrey Driver, "Introduction to the Old Testament of the New English Bible" (1970) He writes:

"The Pentateuch is reasonably well translated, but the rest of the books, especially the poetical books, are often very poorly done and even contain sheer absurdities."
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#276790 - 10/12/07 02:25 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: VictorWolf]
Zaftig Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
Yes I've read it. It's a good quick read on the subject.

As for the first Christ type...why that's probably when the first ape stood up in the grass and said, "How do I teach my offspring to run away from lions?" He thought about it and then said, "Eureka! I'll tell them a story that will inspire and educate!"

Lo and behold, the Hero's Journey was born!

Joseph Campbell did lots of work on this subject, and discovered universal stories detailing a template for the Hero's Quest, of which the story of Jesus fits.

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#277400 - 10/16/07 03:01 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: IRI]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Encyclopedia Psychotica

The Grand Irony (from a Creationary standpoint) is that what is now called "the Bible" has actually evolved over time, and has been cobbled together from pretty much every religious and philosophical tradition its many authors have had contact with.

The content of the various versions, or even what constitutes "the Bible" depends heavily on which religious sect it's associated with, and each modifies and interprets the texts in such a way as to reinforce whatever their dogma du jour might be.

While there may well be a Platonic influence on some parts of the Bible, its roots can be traced much farther back. Every ancient Middle East religion is well-represented, as well as ancient Mediterranean religions and, with the passage of time, more modern influences are apparent.

The basic plot of the Bible is that God suffers from virtually every mental illness known to man, particularly Multiple Personality Disorder, and behaves accordingly. Humans, being "made in God's image", mimic God's behavior in their own special ways, and comedic situations ensue.

The clever punchline, of course, is that all gods are actually made in the image of those who create them.

Meanwhile, the text of any version of the Bible is ambiguous enough to justify virtually any act humanity can conceive of, including murder, robbery, theft, rape, incest, pederasty and genocide, which explains its tremendous and enduring popularity.

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#278395 - 10/21/07 04:58 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: Caesar]
DexRex Offline


Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 92
Loc: UK
 Originally Posted By: Caesar
Christian apologetics would say that the religions (before christ) that are very similar in concept, are that way by design, so that when the "real deal" came along, it wouldn't seem quite as strange.


According to Freke & Gandy in their book "The Jesus Mysteries", early Christian Bishops tried to claim that religions which encapsulated elements of Christianity, yet pre-dated Christianity, did so by 'Diabolic Mimicry'. This meant that they 'copied' Christianity of the future, using knowledge given to them by Satan, to divert people from the 'true path'!

I cannot see how this would fool anyone but the feeble minded, in any century. However...
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#278516 - 10/21/07 10:39 PM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: DexRex]
August-Wolfe Offline


Registered: 10/06/04
Posts: 144
Loc: Texas, USA
I have the book you've mentioned and have enjoyed it very much and have recommended it to many.

It is a perfect place to start for anyone interested in researching the topic of this thread.
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"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.".....Thomas Jefferson

"I have as much authority as the Pope - I just don't have as many people who believe it." ...George Carlin

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#278594 - 10/22/07 09:50 AM Re: Where the "Christian" Bible Came From??? [Re: DexRex]
Caesar Offline

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Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
 Quote:
I cannot see how this would fool anyone but the feeble minded, in any century. However...


So who isn't feeble minded and has been fooled?
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