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#275537 - 10/05/07 10:51 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
However, it's pretty easy to deduce that whatever you choose, however much you think it was against biological urge, was in fact simply the one that your particular (possibly imbalanced) biology demanded most.


Sorry, but I'm not completely buying it.

Biology directs much in the way of physiological function.
It is true that I have little or no direct control over my body when it comes to homeostasis, protein synthesis, or the like.
Still, Science differentiates between voluntary and involuntary for good reason.


Does biology satisfactorily grant practical insight on consciousness?

How does your view of biological imperatives work within the arena of quantum mechanics?

Do you see greater magic as merely a biological function?
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#275538 - 10/05/07 11:00 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
The more I think about this question the more ridiculous it seems. I can do whatever I please at any moment.

This is something to ask a prisoner or somebody in a wheelchair.
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#275540 - 10/05/07 11:06 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Max Faust]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
...which goes straight to the ironic question :

so, if the "free will doesn't exist", what about the existence of Greater Magic then ?


That is too funny...


Edited by Assabrah (10/05/07 11:16 PM)
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#275542 - 10/05/07 11:23 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Assabrah]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
So because you postulate that magic is real (without saying why), free will is automatically real as it is a prerequisite? That's reverse logic.

My point is that free will is, like a number of other concepts we think are real such as meaning, deserving, right and wrong, a load of bullshit that is without relevance to the world. We are what we are, and that's all that we are. Fact is, however, that such a seemingly bleak view is ok, because it all feels the same. You're still happy with eating and fucking and sleeping like an animal should be, and that's enough (even if happiness is nothing more than biological approval of your circumstances).
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#275543 - 10/05/07 11:45 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
Without saying why ! \:D I don't see why I would have to. To me, if I was saying "free will doesn't exist", so I would also automatically question the existence of Greater Magic.. However I am here because Satanism is about this nightside dealing with it. Voilà, some answers were asked, this is mine.


Your point here is yours, and if you find happiness with that point, well, this is the goal of course. To cannot grasp certain things in life are, I would say, limitations, and yes we certainly all have some. But the thing to generalize this limitation to all individual's life is certainly not possible.

"You're still happy with eating and fucking and sleeping like an animal should be, and that's enough"

Woof, but I would be here sad to limit myself to this.


Edited by Assabrah (10/05/07 11:46 PM)
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#275545 - 10/05/07 11:58 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Assabrah]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
If you find biological reality limiting, I am sorry, but you're still made of flesh.

Two things:

You're still using reverse logic. You can't start with an assumption and postulate that all requirements for your assumption to be true are therefore true by default. That's called faith, and doesn't work very well.

Second, the train of logic you're following isn't even the case. Will independent of biology is not required for magic. If it were, then magic really would be impossible - and amusingly enough, every ritual LaVey mentions exists to serve biological needs (lust, greed, hatred), only further proving my point.
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"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#275547 - 10/06/07 12:29 AM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
Voluntary biological actions are still biological actions aren't they? They still originated in the trigger of neurons directing the muscles to move. All involuntary means is that your conscious mind did not have to direct it, because your unconscious mind takes care of it.

Does biology satisfactorily grant practical insight on consciousness?

Sure. Consciousness is the byproduct of having developed senses and sensory processing. It seems like something profound but it's really a pretty mundane thing.

Just to advance counter-argue: you can still have consciousness without external senses only because you still have the sensory processing organs. However, I'd say it would be a pretty fucked up processor if it didn't even have memories of external senses to work with, and its consciousness would be highly debatable.

How does your view of biological imperatives work within the arena of quantum mechanics?

What do molecular physics really have to do with it? Yes, they're the template, but that's like asking how my preference for eating lobster is affected by the ocean's chemistry. It's way too reductionist to be practically applicable.

But if you insist, the answer is pretty simple. Quantum physics don't demonstrate any change in the macro-model of the universe, since they only apply to the micro-universe. In other words, just because we know crazy shit happens on really tiny scales doesn't mean our overall view of the world on the "normal" scale is in any way changed. To assume it does would be a leap in logic that is unwarranted, just like it would be a leap in logic to assume that some new discovery in ocean chemistry should affect how tasty lobster is.

Do you see greater magic as merely a biological function?

Since only biological organisms use it, yes. If you can program a computer to succesfully carry out a magical working I may change my mind.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#275548 - 10/06/07 12:31 AM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Assabrah Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 2062
 Quote:
If you find biological reality limiting, I am sorry, but you're still made of flesh.


Who said this ?

Then, who spoke about this kind of "will independant of biology"?

my only point: what one cannot grasp ( ideas, failure to understand or whatever ) can be called a limitation, his own one, but nowhere in hell he could generalize it to everyone. What one has experienced is validated to him, and this is certainly not faith.

"what if you had free will" ? > " Well I'd use it while some have a hard time trying to say it doesn't exist, and this because they aren't just able ?"

See, since I'm back, I read some threads in general, and see several funny things, like people finding so Satanic and Elite to go on a low paying job, describing it like they have reached the top. The worst is that because their situation, they have a hard time imagining that other ones can have more.. To them, it's like this doesn't exist. So this could also give such threads like: "if you were a Satanist with 1 million dollars, what would you do ?", and then saying "hah, thanks for the answers, but this doesn't exist"....

 Quote:
and amusingly enough, every ritual LaVey mentions exists to serve biological needs (lust, greed, hatred), only further proving my point.


Here again, I was pointing my finger at the moon, you were looking at the finger. Nothing in my original answer was speaking about this.


Edited by Assabrah (10/06/07 03:45 AM)
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#275564 - 10/06/07 02:51 AM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Babydoll Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/03/06
Posts: 861
Loc: Australia
 Quote:
All you're saying is that you'd prefer to obey the more comfortable aspects of your biology.

Or rather, ONLY live with the enjoyable ones Life would be even more awsome were I not a 'slave' to sleep, food, disease, age, other 'limiting' conditions that come with being a human.
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#275565 - 10/06/07 02:51 AM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3



 Quote:
I never said suicide implied free will.
That chemical reactions and/or a "sick" state of mind can lead to suicide is obvious.


Ah... okay, no biggie. \:\)

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#275567 - 10/06/07 03:20 AM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
DataLore Offline


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 441
Loc: Holodeck 3

The replies and arguments to this topic are surprising, I expected that these concepts would be somewhat easy to grasp. \:o

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#275571 - 10/06/07 04:41 AM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Insurgent Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 2318
 Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
If you find biological reality limiting, I am sorry, but you're still made of flesh.

Two things:

You're still using reverse logic. You can't start with an assumption and postulate that all requirements for your assumption to be true are therefore true by default. That's called faith, and doesn't work very well.

Second, the train of logic you're following isn't even the case. Will independent of biology is not required for magic. If it were, then magic really would be impossible - and amusingly enough, every ritual LaVey mentions exists to serve biological needs (lust, greed, hatred), only further proving my point.


Biology doesn't need to cease to exist for free-will to come into play.

Have you stopped to consider that at a certain point of evolutionary progress that a mental will can make a choice to change it's own biology, frivilously or otherwise, and that this choice constitutes "free-will?"

I think you're focusing way too much on the "free" and far too less on the "will" part of this term.

I've always seen "free-will" as meaning the ability to freely will into existence new patterns of behavior within ones self rather than being a living statue.

Free is a generalization. A more open ended version of choices, rather than preset instinct.

Need does not negate choice. Limits do not remove the ability to overcome them.

What you suggest is that anything short of absolute omnipotence is absolute impotence. That's kind of ridiculous.

In conclusion I am sticking my fingers in my ears and sticking my tongue out at you:

I am absolutely right and you are absolutely wrong. I'm done.

NANNER NANNER!
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#275661 - 10/06/07 07:59 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Insurgent]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10130
This is probably the most ridiculous argument made here.

Have you stopped to consider that at a certain point of evolutionary progress that a mental will can make a choice to change it's own biology, frivilously or otherwise, and that this choice constitutes "free-will?"

You're trying desperately to envision some scenario in which you are not merely serving biological needs, but all you're demonstrating is a lack of understanding of biology.

If your body made the decision to alter itself, then...you have your answer.

What you suggest is that anything short of absolute omnipotence is absolute impotence.

I said what now?

I have demonstrated that the very concept of free will is a silly notion that doesn't even exist. That has nothing to do with power.

The thing is, you'll never notice that you have no free will because it's perfectly natural to be as you are - a human with a certain limited set of options and desires. It's also fine to be that way, most here seem to like the state.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#275672 - 10/06/07 09:46 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Science is no longer science when it comments on things beyond the scope of its methods.

Biology and its supporting sciences (chemistry, physics) have no account to give of free will. It is a non-entity as far as these sciences are concerned.

It doesn't follow from this that there's absolutely no such thing as free will.

Nor would anyone here say that it follows that it's an entity that transcends biology.

All that follows is that insofar as behavior is an object of biology, its freedom is not relevant.

It may be relevant with respect to other considerations.

But maybe it would be helpful if you would define "free will" before telling me it doesn't exist. What exactly are you denying, and what are we affirming?


Edited by reprobate (10/06/07 09:48 PM)
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#275683 - 10/07/07 12:00 AM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
Once again it all depends on how you define "Will." And you have to wonder if "Will" can interrupt your own biology. There's certainly stories of people manipulating their bodies in very strange ways. Read The Exorcist (read, don't watch) sometime. All the documented cases of weird things happening to people, that are perfectly natural and seem a matter of "mind over matter." Perhaps in some way, Will can influence biology? Would that make it free? Perhaps not if you want to load on physics and other factors. We all obey the basic laws and motivations of the universe, after all.
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