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#275360 - 10/04/07 10:59 PM If you had free will...
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10133
what would you do with it?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#275361 - 10/04/07 11:09 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
Take a trip to Vegas and blow my life savings. \:D

My lack of free will, however, precludes such a thing.

I'm not free to will such an adventure.

Of course, that's my external free will, the one controlled by interested parties.

Internal free will; I'd do the same thing I'm doing right now, not one thing would change.

Biology fine tuned us so well, we don't know the difference anyway.

Not the best answer. Damn trick questions. \:D
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#275362 - 10/04/07 11:10 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
Exactly what I'm doing now.
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"It's pretty fun, doing the impossible." -Walt Disney

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#275363 - 10/04/07 11:10 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
The same thing I am doing right now.

I don't see life as a cage.

On a humorous note: "I would tell "The Man" to go piss off!"


Edited by Discipline (10/04/07 11:12 PM)
Edit Reason: Added humor
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#275364 - 10/04/07 11:11 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Discipline]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10133
So you'd be obeying biological imperatives? Your genes are no doubt pleased to hear it.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#275365 - 10/04/07 11:13 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I listen to my instincts and my intelligence all at the same time. Some times they conflict but I never see that as a bad thing. In fact my genes and my grey matter upstairs have been good to me.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#275366 - 10/04/07 11:15 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Discipline]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10133
It's very easy to worm out of it with "I have free will so I'd do what I'm doing," but since what you're doing is what your body chemistry demands of you, you're only confirming my point, which is that free will is not only false, but impossible.

PS: Intelligence is a program too.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Top
#275367 - 10/04/07 11:16 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Discipline]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
That's the kicker, even in our unique position to "override" imperatives, are we really overriding anything?

And does it even matter?

I don't think it does, and I don't think you do either. ;\)
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#275369 - 10/04/07 11:21 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Oh, I agree. Biological traits and reactions are what motivate me to do the things I do.

I actually dislike the phrase "free will". It is a statement of separating yourself from the fact of survival. Do people really do things that are based on free will or even against free will? What the hell is free will?

Humans do what they do for survival or for comfort. And there are plenty of times when survival and comfort are at odds and usually comfort wins out. It is how people are intrinsically programmed.

I can say this because of my "Free Will". \:\/
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#275371 - 10/04/07 11:24 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Poetaster]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Intelligence is mostly a genetic trait and slightly a nurtured trait. And the ability to absorb what has been nurtured is genetic too.

So, yes. I agree.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#275373 - 10/04/07 11:28 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
G.F.V. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 1953
Loc: NYC
Achieve my long-term goals that I'm planning to execute to as full degree possible. They include making a great amount of money, doing more traveling and sight-seeing, and not working at a conventional day job.

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#275374 - 10/04/07 11:28 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Discipline]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10133
I can say this because of my "Free Will".

You said it mostly because you're biologically programmed to crave social interaction. The topic of this conversation is pretty much immaterial except for the fact that you found it stimulating, however briefly.

I'll be more impressed by free will when someone can decide to quit urinating or blinking.

The question is pretty simple: if you weren't busy obeying biology all day, what would you be doing, anyway? We're flesh-bots, and that's fine by me, since as a flesh-bot I can't possibly know any different. But high falutin' ideas of actually being in control are kinda silly in perspective.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Top
#275375 - 10/04/07 11:31 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
What about suicide?

That seems to counteract the biological imperative and intelligence, to an extent.


Would you say that the human animal has at least some level of control over his actions?

Perhaps not "free will" ; but will as the ability to consciously choose between limited, preexisting options?
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#275376 - 10/04/07 11:33 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
That comment was a joke. "Free Will" is a joke, especially if people condition themselves into thinking such a thing is true and important.

>>The question is pretty simple: if you weren't busy obeying biology all day, what would you be doing, anyway?

A person would be dead.

A living machine is designed to do what is necessary to continue living and reproduce. Since humans have developed a rather large brain it has both brought biological pros and cons onto itself.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#275377 - 10/04/07 11:37 PM Re: If you had free will... [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Suicide is a means of comfort to some. That is a biological process with chemical reactions that can easily condition someone to assume suicide is the best course of action. To the person it is completely appropriate.

Definitely a defunct thinking process, but still being compelled by biological conditions.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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