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#27900 - 03/03/04 10:42 AM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Satanya]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
The basic "message" here from what I read is not Magus LaVey pontificating, but actually giving some wise advice based on his personal studies. You can find out all he's said on your own, of course, but he would spare you the pains he already experienced in probing the depths (I can only imagine the volumes of books he must have read or countless rituals and the like he experimented with). I have found what he's said there to be true in my own studies. Sure, there's much fantasy and enchantment out there in the world of the occult, but if you're tired of chasing the rabbits then finding yourself in Wonderland, and want what's real , you'll have what you've been looking for in The Satanic Bible. It is tried and true, just like it's author. Of the many things The Satanic Bible is, for us, it is a gift.
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#27901 - 03/03/04 01:37 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Svengali]
Satanya Offline
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Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Where did he say that?

On last paragraph. I agree a lot of it is incomprehensible. Aleister Crowley's The Book Of The Law for example, which I have read it for the second time after years last night, which is the foundation of his teachings, is incomprehensible to me in most parts ( he must have been completely stoned when he worte that ). But in other of his works such as Thelema and Moonchild, which I'm in the process of reading, I find things that are indeed applicable to Satanic magic. I don't want to limit myself.

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#27902 - 03/03/04 03:34 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Satanya]
MagisterRose Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 2403
You should read that last paragraph again as you have clearly missed the point.
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#27903 - 03/03/04 03:49 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Satanya]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
This is exactly what I thought myself.

I read up on more than my share of all of it - open-mindedly, using my own judgment.

I found it quite ironic that my final conclusion was not too unlike what LaVey is telling us.

The "source" is creative will. There are no rules.

Even an Ipissimus will tell you that.

Nothing against people finding out on their own. I would highly recommend it. I've heard so many statements about the occult from Satanists who simply never bothered to investigate - and IT SHOWS. It shows in LaVey's article, because he simply doesn't write a good research paper.

I just think it is amusing that in the final chapter, it makes no difference.
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#27904 - 03/03/04 04:16 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Satanya]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Quote:

But in other of his works such as Thelema and Moonchild, which I'm in the process of reading, I find things that are indeed applicable to Satanic magic. I don't want to limit myself.




What you are limiting yourself FROM?

The "What If?" principle caught in action.


Edited by KLeBlanc (03/03/04 04:21 PM)
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#27905 - 03/03/04 10:25 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Svengali]
HLGwyn Offline


Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 128
Loc: Colorado
Aside from what has been posted regarding LaVeys' essay, my take on the writing is thus...

The methods of "those magickians" who carp and whine about holier than thou means of gaining what they desire are shrouded in piles of hay. The "hay" being method devices to save one from danger, damnation and dementia.

LaVey just wanted bedrock. Bedrock that is a foundation to absolutes, casting no comments about right or wrong...just magic. He wanted the proverbial needle within that "hay".

LaVey was tired of the misdirections and mazes presented to him...mostly so when they were under the imperical banner of righteousness.(sp?)

He saw plainly that power was not holy or unholy(tho giving it the kick in the face image of the unholy is fun and fosters a no-bull attitude towards accomplishment.)

He saw those performing the black arts, deny their involvement through the use of the "holy" to tame the powerful dark into compliance, and he saw the hypocrasy within that method.

Power is power, Justice is justice, doing is doing ad infinitum.

LaVey was very clear without all the rigimorale.

Become proficient at Lesser Magic to control those around you.
Send out torrents of power during Greater Magic, to control the workings of the world, not accessable through normal, lesser means.

He filled his grimoires with his esoterica, and he did it in the most powerful ways yet shown. Clearly and without pretense.

Not only that, but LaVey plainly stated the philosophy of those capable of working with bedrock. He raised a standard for others to recognise and identify with.(not huddle underneath, for he understood the singular wills of those who understand.)

No one save the de-factos through-out history have stated it so plainly, or with such conviction.

Simply stated, he was tired of the bullshit, and he did not comprehend why some...Satanists...continued to give the mud and muck the same value as bedrock.

Just My Humble View.

Hail Satan.

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#27906 - 03/04/04 01:44 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: MagisterRose]
Satanya Offline
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Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
I will read it again but I think what is getting me to see it this way could be the emphasis added to the words.

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#27907 - 03/04/04 01:51 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Captn_Thatch]
Satanya Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
What you are limiting yourself FROM?

The "What If?" principle caught in action.



Perhaps. It would feel more complete, to me, if other elements, other than the ones on TSB & TSR were added to a compassion ritual, for example. Maybe it is Crowley's old English and manner to refer to the Myths... I'm still investigating. Can't say for sure, as of yet.

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#27908 - 03/05/04 07:46 AM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Satanya]
MagistraNadramia Offline

CoS HighPriestess

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 5839
Loc: Hell's Kitchen, NYC
Listheret, I respect the fact that you are actually trying to find the point in the works of these authors. Applying Satanic principles, however, would mean moving on to literature you actually enjoy and information that you find useful, instead of banging your head against books because someone else thinks they're "Satanic."

"Summing up, if you NEED to steep yourselves in occult lore, despite this diatribe, by all means do so. But do it as a ritual in itself, i.e., objectively towards subjective ends! read on, knowing that you won’t learn a damn thing in principle from Levi, Crowley, Regardie, (or Sybil Leek either!) that isn’t extended one-hundred fold in The Satanic Bible or The Compleat Witch, but that you’ll have the spooky fun, ego-food, and involvement which invariably accompanies a curriculum concerned more with the gathering of ingredients than the application of principles."

Dr. LaVey's piece is an essay, not a research paper; however, he DID research it and citing page and line numbers would have only diluted the message in what he described himself as a diatribe.
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#27909 - 03/05/04 10:49 AM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: MagistraNadramia]
Satanya Offline
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Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 2241
Thank You Magistra Nadramia. I do enjoy reading Aleister Crowley and indeed would only apply some of it's approach to rituals. Except of course for the giggles I can't help from letting out in regards to passages such as this, from The Book Of The Law :

75. Aye! listen to the numbers & words:
76. 46 38 A B K 24 A L G M O R Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L. What meaneth this, o prophet? Thou knowest not; nor shalt thou know ever.



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#27910 - 03/07/04 07:43 AM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Svengali]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Reading this essay I couldn't help but think of a guy I know who tending towards the Thelemic, constantly seems to tie himself up in a convolution of metaphysical angst - never able to decide whether he serves darkness or light. That he should dare to suggest that Satanism is the worship of evil it would do him well if he could learn to appreciate the wry caustic humour of Anton LaVey's realistic outlook on the Occult.

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#27911 - 03/08/04 02:34 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: MagistraNadramia]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
Quote:

Dr. LaVey's piece is an essay, not a research paper; however, he DID research it and citing page and line numbers would have only diluted the message in what he described himself as a diatribe.





Very interesting point.
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Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

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#27912 - 03/08/04 03:13 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Captn_Thatch]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

I've heard so many statements about the occult from Satanists who simply never bothered to investigate - and IT SHOWS. It shows in LaVey's article, because he simply doesn't write a good research paper.

I just think it is amusing that in the final chapter, it makes no difference.




What is really “amusing” (if amusing is synonymous with ignorant), is people who assume Dr. LaVey, or members of the hierarchy, myself included, are not actually familiar with the material in question.

Equally "amusing" are those who consider the rejection of abject bullshit “closed-minded.”

I would really like to hear what anyone who assumes they have a grasp of Satanism really thinks they find of value in the works of Crowley, Regardie, Waite, the Golden Dawn, etc.
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#27913 - 03/08/04 04:41 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: Svengali]
DancingintheDark Offline


Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 745
"Abject bullshit" is exactly what I found Crowley and the other occultists you mention to be full off, and it took little more than a glance at their works for me to come to that conclusion. Their life stories were more revealing than anything else. Take Crowley... he died a penniless heroin addict who questioned his own philosphies. I find it ironic for a man who famously said "Do what thou wilt!" to die with his will totally demolished, a slave. How anyone can call self destruction "magic" I do not know.

I think Anton LaVey was bang on the nail in regard to "white light" occultists. People are nothing if not predictable, being creatures of habit. I personally have noticed a kind of pattern to those who are drawn towards the occult. Often the first step is they look for the quickest, easiest route. That is, they buy a few spell books and hope that with a wave of a wand riches and fame will be theirs. When this doesn't happen many give it up and move on to the next promising get-rich-quick scheme. Those who have a little more staying power might however discover some of the more complex "magical systems" of the likes of Crowley, Abra-Melin, Kabbalah etc. They then might spend years wandering down a bewildering assortment of "paths" (I would call them dead ends), growing more and more frustrated as the power they seek does not materialise. A few come to the conclusion that "all magical paths lead to self-discovery". They feel content at this knowledge, yet remain ignorant of the fact that the paths they took led them farther and farther away from themselves! Only by a stroke of good fortune did a fork in the trail enlighten them. So they are now back where they started, with an encyclopediac knowledge of worthless religous pseudo-magical bollocks. They are the lucky ones. Still plenty are wandering, lost, in the desert.

Perhaps then it dawns on them... magic is all about WILL! It matters not what tools you use, it is the hand, or in this case, mind that guides them. Perhaps with some sadness they realise, if only they had spent the last glut of years strengthening their will, honing their mind and body, becoming their own master, (instead of someone elses fool) they might really be somewhere. A man who cannot command his own will yet who thinks he can command the unknown is deluded. All Anton LaVey was doing was trying to save people some time, money and energy. I couldn't agree with him more.
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#27914 - 03/08/04 06:01 PM Re: Another MUST READ............. [Re: DancingintheDark]
Powaqqatsi Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 396
Loc: Hungary
Quote:

All Anton LaVey was doing was trying to save people some time, money and energy. I couldn't agree with him more.




Everyone knows the fable about the "Emperor's new clothes", in which only a child was honest enough to state loudly in public: the Emperor is naked. It seems that LaVey was honest enough to state the same, although I'm not sure if he wrote that essay because of his altruism... I think he wrote it just because he wanted to write that, and I'm glad he did.

The "classical occult" literature is good for one thing: it occupies the mind, it's a mental bubblegum, so the person won't have time to think, and to realize that he's only wasting his time. I know a few "occultists", and they're all the same: they are preparing and preparing and preparing, but in reality they're not doing anything at all, just fooling themselves.

But perhaps it's the best they can do. Not everyone can face reality. "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" (Douglas Adams)

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