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#28430 - 02/24/04 08:11 PM All aspects...save one
Droog Offline


Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4
Greetings,

Where to begin? Allow me to organize my thoughts in some sort of reasonable manner so you can follow.

I discovered the philosophical thought of true Satanism about 3 months ago mostly by my curiousity. I learned much from the CoS website as well as Satanism101, Religious Tolerance, and Vexen's website (if you know of it). I got around to ordering The Satanic Bible about a month ago and I have finished it recently. So I am well informed of what Satanism is and its philosophical thoughts as well as its members' life actions.

I have found that this word, Satanism, describes the way I think, feel, act and aspire toward my goals.

Therefore, you could say that I am a Satanists in all aspects, save one. This aspect is Greater Magic. I am aware that this subject has appeared before, but I feel that that I need a personally specific answer or array of opinions. I have absolutely no occult background, and 4 months ago I would have scoffed at magic for being something of an old superstition that was useless and a waste of time. This is sort of ironic now that I have found a way of life which suits my personality but also includes ritual magic (not to mention that it is a religion). I was never really a Christian, but I completely rejected it when I was 16 or so, and since then I have always held distain for religion--too bad I didn't know a religion of the flesh existed.

Perhaps I am going on a tangent now, and it already seems that my post is fairly long.

My problem is Greater Magic. I know that many Satanists disagree on what a magical ritual actually does. For it to be just a drama of the imagination which clears the mind and exercises emotions in a positive manner, then I would try it to see if it works for me. But I am extremely skeptical of the concept that mental energy actually affecting anyone mentally or anything physically.
Living in a dorm, I cannot actually attempt any Greater Magic for myself to find any results. But speaking hypothetically, if I were to perform say a compassion ritual and it succeeded, then I would probably just label it as something that would have happened even if I had not done a ritual. This situation would violate one of the Satanic Rulesof The Earth, so I am not sure what to think.

I suppose one can call this a dilemma.
I am asking for your opinions, and I thank you in advance for them. If you were once new to the occult and very skeptical of it then please, try to remember your feelings at that time.

Sorry if the post was too long for your taste, but I wanted to give you an image of the whole picture. I hope I didn't leave out anything important.

My greatest appreciation,
Droog

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#28431 - 02/24/04 08:37 PM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
Shiboleth Offline


Registered: 01/06/04
Posts: 113
Loc: Alberta, Canada
"But I am extremely skeptical of the concept that mental energy actually affecting anyone mentally or anything physically."

Sure it does, I'm using mental energy right now in order to precipitate an change in your consciousness, just as you used mental energy to precipitate a change in my consciousness thus prompting this response. But this is simplistic to say the least. Rituals often include the use of scents, music/chanting/droning etc, props, colours ad nauseum to do this on a greater level and ideally the consciousness of everyone involved changes during the span of the ritual (all without the use of drugs) and this change has potential to spill out of the Ritual Chamber through the actions of the participants afterwards. Some combinations of scent colours props help do a better job than others, depending of course on the people (or person) involved. Why do you think that the militaries of the world have so many rituals? To establish cohesion and a "fighting spirit" which helps them on the battlefield.
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#28432 - 02/24/04 08:55 PM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
Wile_E_Quixote Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 2493
Doubt is not a barrier. The popular perception seems to be that once you doubt something you are intellectually at rest with it unless some outside intervention sheds some new light onto that which you doubt.

Satanists don't use doubt as a barrier but as a tool. The first question you need to ask yourself is:
Do I want to achieve something by greater magical means?
If the answer is a no then you need go no further. To do so would be just wasting your time. If, however, the answer is yes then the only way to proceed is to test your doubt. You can think all you want that you would just put down magical success to being something that would have happened regardless, but you will never actually know unless you test it for yourself.

As for the problem of privacy, that is unfortunate but not all Satanists chose to practise magic in a formal ritual way as detailed in The Satanic Bible. There are many different techniques that can be learned. "Visual Magick" by Jan Fries contains a wealth of magical approaches from a more shamanic perspective. Most magic is bogged down under the weight of centuries of moronic mysticism. The afformentioned book, by comparrisson, is very pragmatic and results-oriented. The most magnificent ruitual chamber you could possibly construct already exists in your mind. All that's needed is a good imagination.

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#28433 - 02/24/04 09:48 PM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
Foxy_Ramirez Offline


Registered: 01/16/04
Posts: 207
Loc: Lawrence, KS
You don't really need to use ritual magic in the first place, but I assure you, it does work. Ritual magic should only be used with you couldn't obtain the effects mundanely. Trust me though, everytime I have applied ritual magic, it has worked. I'm currently riding out the good effects of a compassion ritual to help kick my grades up and what not. I feel re-energized and I'm more active than I ever have been in months. When you're using a ritual, you are literally summoning up the darker forces of nature, taking from what power it offers you and using it to change what is.
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"There is a beast in man that should be exercised, not exorcised." ~ Anton Szandor LaVey

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#28434 - 02/24/04 10:27 PM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
C_D_McKinna Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 777
Loc: San Diego, CA
But I am extremely skeptical of the concept that mental energy actually affecting anyone mentally or anything physically.

This is fine. However, I suggest you leave your skepticism at the door if you ever enter a ritual chamber.

Living in a dorm, I cannot actually attempt any Greater Magic for myself to find any results.

Not true. See pgs. 121-128 of the Satanic Bible. You already have everything you need.

But speaking hypothetically, if I were to perform say a compassion ritual and it succeeded, then I would probably just label it as something that would have happened even if I had not done a ritual.

See pgs. 117-118. Do not deny what you varify!

You are not required to utilize Greater Magic to be a Satanist, any more than you are required to use a screwdriver if you are a carpender.

Use whatever tools you feel neccesary to get the job done, whatever the job may be!

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#28435 - 02/24/04 11:08 PM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
Droog Offline


Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4
Thanks for the responses, everyone!

If -- and the probability is good -- I decied to perform a ritual, I will be open mided and view the results for what they are. The only problem I see here is that I don't know when I would ever want to utilize this tool. I'll just have to wait and see.

Hypothetically again, if I were to become a member, and than an active member of the CoS and decied to participate in a grotto, would it be better to already have come to terms with myself on Greater Magic rather then still be unsure as I am in my present state?


Edited by Droog (02/24/04 11:10 PM)

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#28436 - 02/24/04 11:29 PM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
DragonWing Offline


Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Central Florida
I fisrt found out about Satanism (and discovered that I am one)about six months ago.

I made the decision though, that I am not going to join until I have performed my fisrt ritual. I am not saying that this is what you should do, it's just a decision I made for myself. I really feel it is something I should do before I go for my red card.
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#28437 - 02/25/04 12:27 AM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I have absolutely no occult background, and 4 months ago I would have scoffed at magic for being something of an old superstition that was useless and a waste of time.

I have never thought of magic as a waste of time, even before I started to apply it to my life. It is everywhere. People do it all the time but most truly don't realize it nor understand it's usefulness.

I am not talking about pulling a bunny out of a top hat. I am talking about manipulating others. Understand human behavior and psychodrama.

But I am extremely skeptical of the concept that mental energy actually affecting anyone mentally or anything physically.

Maybe it will or maybe it won't. What matters is the emotional release of your desires and if you happen to get the results you desired all the better. Remember if you do use greater magic and it works do not deny it's power. Also remember that magic unlike praying requires you to get off your ass an put forth an effort. Think of it as cooking. You add all the ingredients and then put it on the stove. You have to periodically check to make sure it won't boil over. (I'm not sure if that was a good simile.)

I would probably just label it as something that would have happened even if I had not done a ritual.

The magic was a part of your efforts to gain your desires. If you gained results it is because some where you put an effort into it. Greater magic is just a step in the whole process.

I am not sure what to think.

Don't think just do. Actions speak louder than words and results are rewarded for those actions.

Not all Satanists practice Greater Magic. It is a usefull tool but if you do not want to use it than you don't have to. But it is there and also it is fun.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#28438 - 02/25/04 02:24 AM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Magic is the utilization of ones willpower, imagination, and aspiration.

"Luck" (As it is commenly called) is a natural force just like any other. What seperates me from the skeptic world is that I believe I can bend this force to my will, and I accept that I have done so and do not attribute such things to "coincedence". A Ritual bends "luck" in your favor; however, these things do not land on your doorstep. You must place yourself where you need to be, and the Magic will do the rest. This is Greater Magic.

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#28439 - 02/25/04 02:46 AM Question. [Re: Droog]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12551
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
You imply that you believe that real magic can't work.

My question for you to consider it this:

Can you drop your beliefs long enough to test them?

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#28440 - 02/25/04 03:37 AM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
Felstorm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 1474
Loc: Minnesota.
I challenge you to experiment with it, wait for a week or two, and then come back here and tell us that absolutely nothing changed in the direction you focused your working.

You can do Greater Magic with nothing, naked, in a black room with no windows and all the lights turned out.

There is no reason why you cannot practice Greater Magic.

*correction*

There is no reason why you cannot practice Greater Magic due to the fact you live in a dorm.


Edited by Felstorm (02/25/04 03:38 AM)
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#28441 - 02/25/04 04:16 AM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
In the times that I do have discussions with others and I am explaining the fundamentals of Satanism, the one hang up people seem to have most is "the ritual stuff".

People actually perform rituals everyday (without realizing it of course), that certainly could fall under the Greater Magic "umbrella", just not as specifically nor as fantastically (listening to sad songs thinking of loved ones, looking through a Maxim "alone", screaming at the guy who cut you off, etc.). The difference for me is accuracy and continuity , like being a baseball pitcher able to throw strikes , as opposed to throwing balls (and if you're lucky, get a strike).

I think people are apprehensive to it as well is because when one finds themself in a ritual chamber...saying, doing, seeing, and feeling things only appropriate for such a time and place, the reality of what you are involving yourself with becomes abundantly clear. People will either run back where they came from, or they make themselves at home.
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#28442 - 02/25/04 11:12 AM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Remember, it's all in how you think about it.

The word "magic" is used because it was stimulating for LaVey, and a lot of people resonate with that. LaVey constantly refers to it as psychodrama, and suggests that the point is to put yourself in an environment that changes you, and makes you into a creature that's better able to realize your goals.

That's the principle; the name is largely a matter of taste, and the content of what you think works or doesn't work is not part of Church dogma.
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reprobate

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#28443 - 02/25/04 12:31 PM Re: All aspects...save one [Re: Droog]
Professor_Sinister Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 752
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
You are not required to use Greater Magic in order to be a Satanist, but it clearly interests you, so I recommend that you continue to learn all you can about it until you find something which resonates with you personally. Not having an "occult background" can actually be an asset to you in Greater Magic.

If you find that you wish to perform a ritual -- then do so. Otherwise don't sweat it. You aren't going to get results unless you desire results.

Once you can narrow down exactly what it is you want to accomplish with Greater Magic, then you're further along than most people with "occult backgrounds" have ever been.
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#28444 - 02/25/04 12:38 PM Re: All aspects... take your time. [Re: Droog]
Rev_Malebranche Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 4136
Loc: Oregon
I am always more suspicious of those who are too quick to embrace the idea of Greater Magic than I am of those who remain skeptical.

I believe the quote from TSB goes something like:

“He who is slow to believe is anything is of great understanding…”

From your post, it seems like you are enthusiastic about Satanism, but Greater Magic makes you apprehensive. However, if you are a Satanist, you will find that no path suits you better than the Left Hand one.

The best advice I can give you is to put Greater Magic aside for now.

If it suits you, as your understanding of Satanism increases – you may find yourself increasingly drawn to it.

But, when it comes to Greater Magic, as Magister Nemo is fond of saying, “Understanding is the Booby Prize”.

LaVey’s words “intellectual decompression” are well chosen. Over-thinking it, trying to ”know the unknown”, can be counter productive.

If you feel that you are truly a Satanist as defined by Anton LaVey in The Satanic Bible, if you resonate with this powerful work on a personal level, if this worldview is simply the only one that makes sense to you, if you want to throw your support behind the organization that promotes Satanism…

Join the Church of Satan as a Registered Member.

Continue to study Satanism. Read the books suggested on the CoS web site. Watch the recommended films. Continue to interact with other Satanists and learn from members of the Hierarchy, who have studied Satanism in depth for years – and most importantly, have been able to apply Satanism to their everyday lives to increase their own happiness and success.

In the Members Area of this board, there is a forum devoted to Greater Magic. Read through those posts, and ask questions that haven’t been asked, if you have them.

If you begin to experiment with Greater Magic, you may find that your most potent magic is worked in private. However, group rituals are also part of our tradition, and you may want to increase your understanding of Satanism by participating in them. If you want to keep this option available, you may want to apply for Active Membership.

There is no rush to do this. The Active Membership application should probably be something that you put some time and effort into. I edited mine many times before it went in the mail – over a year after I received my red card.

Again, if you truly feel that you are a Satanist – there is no rush. You will always be a Satanist. You will get as much out of it as you put into it, as with many things in life, and you will make your own visceral, personal connection with many aspects of Satanism – including Greater Magic.

Hail Satan!

** Shiva, you're right. I am long-winded.


Edited by Jack_Malebranche (02/25/04 12:41 PM)

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