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#285520 - 11/24/07 12:26 PM God's silence. [Re: Trau]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
John Klein: I think we can assume that these entities are more advanced than us. Why don't they just come right out and tell us what's on their minds?

Alexander Leek: You're more advanced than a cockroach, have you ever tried explaining yourself to one of them?

-quotes from "The Mothman Prophesies" film.

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#285670 - 11/25/07 01:59 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
Magister Nemo,

I understand your post and totally agree with you.

But what keeps confusing me is the frequent statement by members of the priesthood that Satanism is atheism, especially in interviews.

One example is High Priest Peter Gilmore:
"Satanism begins with atheism. We begin with the universe and say, “It’s indifferent. There’s no God, there’s no Devil. No one cares!”

Did I miss something? Or is there any other explanation for this discrepancy?

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#285672 - 11/25/07 02:07 PM What you missed. [Re: John.Doe]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
You do not hear us saying, "I can prove that there is no God/s."

Satanism is not armchair philosophical speculation.

It is highly pragmatic.

Go to Google and you can swim in a sea of qualifications for what kinds of "atheism" there are.

Satanism does not need that kind of confusion.

Can we "prove" something that does not seem to exist does not exist?

Our answer is, "Even if it were somehow possible, why bother?"

When a Satanist chooses himself as his God, that bumps down all others types. ;\)

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#285688 - 11/25/07 02:44 PM Re: What you missed. [Re: Nemo]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
I did some reading on pragmatic atheism and think I understand now. Thank you for the clarification, Magister!

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#285704 - 11/25/07 03:02 PM Gad! Defined and everything! [Re: John.Doe]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
"Pragmatic atheism"? Defined in detail?

So what the heck! I looked it up again myself and found it under "implicit" and "explicit" and "strong" and "weak" as follows in
Wikipedia :

 Quote:
Rationale

"A child of the mob once asked an astronomer who the father was who brought him into this world. The scholar pointed to the sky, and to an old man sitting, and said: 'That one there is your body's father, and that your soul's.' To which the boy replied: 'WHAT IS ABOVE US IS OF NO CONCERN TO US, and I'm ashamed to be the child of such an aged man!' O WHAT SUPREME impiety, not to want to recognize your father, and not to think God is your maker!"[42]

Emblem illustrating practical atheism and its historical association with immorality, titled "Supreme Impiety: Atheist and Charlatan", from Picta poesis, by Barthélemy Aneau, 1552.The broadest demarcation with respect to atheistic rationale is between practical and theoretical atheism. The different forms of theoretical atheism each derive from a particular rationale or philosophical argument. In contrast, practical atheism requires no specific argument, and can include indifference to and ignorance of the idea of gods.


Practical atheism

In practical, or pragmatic, atheism, also known as apatheism, individuals live as if there are no gods and explain natural phenomena without resorting to the divine. The existence of gods is not denied, but may be designated unnecessary or useless; gods neither provide purpose to life, nor influence everyday life, according to this view.[43] A form of practical atheism with implications for the scientific community is methodological naturalism—the "tacit adoption or assumption of philosophical naturalism within scientific method with or without fully accepting or believing it."[44]

Practical atheism can take various forms:

Absence of religious motivation—belief in gods does not motivate moral action, religious action, or any other form of action;
Active exclusion of the problem of gods and religion from intellectual pursuit and practical action;
Indifference—the absence of any interest in the problems of gods and religion; or
Ignorance—lacking any idea of gods.[45]
Historically, practical atheism has been associated with moral failure, willful ignorance and impiety. Those considered practical atheists were said to behave as though God, ethics and social responsibility did not exist; they abandoned duty and embraced hedonism. According to the French Catholic philosopher Étienne Borne, "Practical atheism is not the denial of the existence of God, but complete godlessness of action; it is a moral evil, implying not the denial of the absolute validity of the moral law but simply rebellion against that law."[46]


I usually do not quote defintions but this was a real wonker.

It even included the implication of being morally evil!

And, yes, I would say that summarized the details of the matter.

The thing to remember is that in order to prove that something is impossible in reality would require that you truly and fully understand the nature of reality.

The top minds in physics today agree that they do not know.

Therefore any argument that sets out to prove that God (or the Devil or all his little wizards) does not exist is based on FAITH.

If you read that last sentence over and over so that it really sinks in then you will never again be quick to assume that magic is impossible, for example.

There do exist mysteries in the universe simply because unlike the Lord God Jehovah (and his look-alike Gods, Goddesses, Avatars, Devils, Demons and Oompah-Loompahs) we do not claim to already know everything about reality.

Thus the "atheist" who claims he can prove that there is no God is only embarrassing himself whether he knows it or not.

When Church officials stand up before sound-bite reporters to attempt to explain the Church of Satan's position on such things they know that we must use very small words in very short sentences.

Context is everything.

"Satanism requires study."
-Anton LaVey

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#285801 - 11/25/07 08:07 PM Proving A Negative [Re: Nemo]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
The Little Religion That Couldn't

 Originally Posted By: Nemo
Therefore any argument that sets out to prove that God (or the Devil or all his little wizards) does not exist is based on FAITH.

Precisely. The truth is that "Atheism" (as opposed to "Agnosticism", for example) is as much a religious choice as those it seeks to repudiate.

Declaring that there is no God requires as much a leap of faith as declaring that there is a God.

In fact it requires a bit more faith, because whatever the nature of gods might be -- whether supernatural beings, popular fantasies, subtle memetic viruses or God-knows-what -- the influence of gods on human behavior is supremely well-documented and indisputably strong.

Common Atheism seems to be closely related to the Religion of Science, which is based on ignorance and conceptual perversion of what Science actually is: applied philosophy.

The creed of the Religion of Science is: "If Science can't explain it, it doesn't exist."

Both Atheism and the Religion of Science are systems of belief rooted in the fallacy that absence of evidence constitutes evidence of absence -- and are thus inherently irrational.

Irony abounds.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#285806 - 11/25/07 08:39 PM Real science is wonderful. [Re: Majic]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12573
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I applaud the efforts of those true practitioners of the scientific method.

Starting as they do from doubt, Satanists feel very comfortable indeed with their efforts.

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#285814 - 11/25/07 10:30 PM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Majic]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
 Originally Posted By: Majic
The Little Religion That Couldn't

 Originally Posted By: Nemo
Therefore any argument that sets out to prove that God (or the Devil or all his little wizards) does not exist is based on FAITH.

Precisely. The truth is that "Atheism" (as opposed to "Agnosticism", for example) is as much a religious choice as those it seeks to repudiate.

Declaring that there is no God requires as much a leap of faith as declaring that there is a God.


While I agree with what Magister Nemo said, I do not entirely agree with you here. You have taken an extra step that is not correct.

While setting out to prove the non-existence of God must be based on faith to some degree, declaring that God does not exist need not be. The conclusion that God does not exist may arise from a true scientific investigation/experimentation.

 Quote:
Both Atheism and the Religion of Science are systems of belief rooted in the fallacy that absence of evidence constitutes evidence of absence -- and are thus inherently irrational.


While absence of evidence for anything cannot prove the absence of it, it does suggest that non-belief is entirely more rational than belief. This is suggested in the principle of Occam's Razor.

While non-belief is technically a form of belief (belief to the contrary), in this sense it has little practical difference to an intellectual 'agnostic' who accepts that a personal god is ridiculously unlikely.

Also, applied philosophy is a misleading definition of what science actually is.

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#285830 - 11/25/07 11:43 PM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Mr Sam]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
With Faith, All Things Are Possible

 Originally Posted By: Mr Sam
While setting out to prove the non-existence of God must be based on faith to some degree, declaring that God does not exist need not be. The conclusion that God does not exist may arise from a true scientific investigation/experimentation.

How?

A Madness To The Method

 Originally Posted By: Mr Sam
Also, applied philosophy is a misleading definition of what science actually is.

Why do you consider that description misleading?

Can Science exist exclusive of an applied philosophy?

If so, how?
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#285834 - 11/26/07 12:00 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: John.Doe]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Atheism assumes that no force outside ourselves exists.

Satanism states that no forces contrary to our personal inclinations need following.

When speaking to a society that assumes some force outside ourselves influences our lives we begin our explanation by negating their assumption. Satanic thought follows, even in the quote you point to. High Priest Gilmore does not say that we are atheists. He says there is no God and no Devil - he refers to standard definitions of those entities; definitions which imply that those beings directly and obviously effect our lives, often contrary to our natural desires. Satanists know that no such deities exist. So in this sense we are atheists.

However, Magister Nemo refers to a different atheism. He refers to an atheism that insists that no force exists outside of ourselves; that we can prove through evidence and personal experience that no force exists. Such assumptions are poppycock and contrary to scientific thought.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#285907 - 11/26/07 03:43 AM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Majic]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
If I knew how I would be rich, or dead.

This explains why I find the definition you gave misleading, quite well.

Philosophy is a different subject to science. They are both theoretical subjects, but very different.

Science is no more applied Philosophy than Philosophy is applied Science.

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#285946 - 11/26/07 10:38 AM Re: Gad! Defined and everything! [Re: Nemo]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
 Quote:
When a Satanist chooses himself as his God, that bumps down all others types.


This is a lovely thread and I thank you for posting it Magister.

Funny thing is that I was mulling this over in My head the other day.

I sat and pondered the Xtians belief in the 'Apocalypse'. I sat and wondered..... why do people care? Really why?

Fear is a factor I'm sure. What better way to get someone to do your will than by scaring 'the hell out of them' or... into them?

Now then I went a step further. I said to Myself that Scientifically I cannot DISPROVE that a god exist. I CANNOT disprove that there will be four horsemen.

Then I laughed.

I honestly don't care if they DO exist because.....I have made MYSELF My own god and I trump anything else that MAY or MAY NOT exist out there.

To say with certainty that something does NOT exist is foolish. To go with what We know Scientifically thus far is a much better choice I feel.

Years ago, people would have laughed at the thought of a heart transplant, of cloning, of a vast many things We now not only know are a possibility but a reality.

What is important to one is a waste to others and god is a waste to Me even if he/she/it WERE to be PROVEN to exist.

So, after this long response, I have made My choice and am most comfortable with that choice of being My own god.

I am a Satanist.
I am a Vampire.
Lastly, I am an Atheist.

A good combination Me thinks.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#285949 - 11/26/07 10:45 AM Re: Gad! Defined and everything! [Re: Evil_Eve]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Yeah, well according to my friend who watched fourty minutes of a one hour special about the end of the world, it will take place in 2012. I believe her because once we were eating lunch, and she drank some bad milk. She predicted she would be sick later, and GUESS WHAT? That's right.

Well, I guess she was also lactose intolerant...but, haha, that hardly has any bearing, and only some kind of skeptic would be foolish enough to think that she had just predicted the obvious, and did NOT have some precognative abilities.

So, 2012, the end of the world, make sure to mark that on your calendar. I would SUGGEST you all go the dry cleaner a few days before, because people are going to want to look their best. Don't believe me? We will see who is laughing when all those with mustard stains on their dresses and suits are cast into the flames of hell for looking a mockery before god.

That's fine and good, but do you really want to be looking sloppy for the devil?

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#285952 - 11/26/07 11:04 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I have probably mentioned that I have used the term “atheist” to describe myself. Probably for the same reason I have heard members of the hierarchy use that term to define, very partially, the satanic philosophy. It’s a fairly easy thing for the rank and file to understand. The garden-variety average person takes that to mean we do not believe in Jehovah, Allah or any other sentient, anthropomorphic being. Beyond that, there is probably a lot of variety constituting Church of Satan membership…at least, if one had a private, honest conversation.

The reason I do not identify with the title, “atheist”, may, or may not be understood by others. For me, it tends to domesticate Satanism. People can handle an atheist. But, can they handle somebody who really puts their own ability to think rationally above conventional wisdom. What if they knew that your end all was yourself, and those you chose to hold dear. You have no ring in your nose called “universal compassion” for them to steer you in one direction or another. I do not know how safe somebody would feel around us if they knew that we had no fear of eternal judgment to act as some sort of invisible fence to keep us from running amuck. I absolutely know that most people I run into feel that, if there were no god, they would do unspeakable things. I have been told this by I cannot keep count of how many. My own father told me that, if he could do whatever he wanted, he would join the Mafia. My mother has been honest enough to tell me that it is her fear of Hell that has kept her from doing certain things.

To “them”, we are wild animals. We are like a tiger that, even if it has not yet attacked, who knows what will keep them from showing their true stripes.

Atheism is comfy, safe, and an easy target for believers to attack.

Satanism is The Feared Religion.
_________________________
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http://theepicureandilettante.blogspot.com/

"Life is the only race you lose by reaching the end." - M.M.

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#285954 - 11/26/07 11:11 AM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Majic]
Xaira Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 142
Loc: South Carolina
Good science always exists exclusive of philosophy. Good, solid science has to be independent of biased philosophy. That is one of the most basic ideas behind the scientific method.

Science can support philosophy, or certain philosophies can give incentive to begin scientific studies, but correctly researched science cannot be called applied philosophy.

Are we overlooking the basics to create an argument?
_________________________
"It is a sin to write this..." - Ayn Rand

devilchili

"You have to know how to accept rejection and reject acceptance." - Ray Bradbury

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