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#286603 - 11/28/07 08:59 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Nemo]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
I think it's strange that subjects like immortality and magic seem "definitely true" to some and yet God is still in the "doubt it" sector.

I mean, you either agree with logic or you don't…

If you agree with logic (and therefore with the scientific method as well)- you'd have to doubt higher magic [as something metaphysical, and not just psychological], and seriously, highly, extremely doubt the existence of any kind of immortal being.
Yes, there are no scientific means to prove the impossible, but if you come from a logical standpoint (meaning, you "believe" [so to speak] in logic) then you must also "believe" that anything that completely contradicts logic must be false.
If it's not false, then nothing can possibly be truly real from a human standpoint.

Why would one even bother leaving room for the possibility of something so logically-incorrect?
If the answer is "for the sake of being logically correct" then- well, that's kind of a contradiction, don't you think?
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There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#286604 - 11/28/07 09:06 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
A Fallible God

 Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
Besides the fact that I can only wonder how someone could hold on to the empty philosophy of "You can't know anything!" that would be required to accept such a statement that God is a possibility, I retain my stance that the last thing Satanism needs is to be viewed as lending even vague credence to such foolery.

Allowing for the possible existence of "God" (whatever that may be) does not require adhering to a philosophy of "You can't know anything!"

A more accurate characterization would be "You don't know what you don't know!"

Solipsism, self-deceit and counterproductive pride are not virtues, and I cannot see how unsupported claims regarding "God" -- pro or con -- would benefit a Satanist.

If "Satanism" requires professing something I do not believe to be true, then I am not a "Satanist".

As it happens, I am satisfied that true Satanism requires nothing of the sort.

My tuppence, your mileage may vary.
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If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286607 - 11/28/07 09:13 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
As you can logically assert that an omnipotent deity is an impossibility in a universe where logic is applicable, it certainly does.

The fact that you just haven't thought this through and are really stubborn doesn't make your point of view correct by shouting over and over, "You never know!"

If it can be logically possible, then explain just one logical possible origin of a god. Something without origin is illogical. If you cannot even imagine such a possibility, then you're just running your mouth to say that it is possible.

It's worth noting that asserting the possibility of a god is unique in its implications, unlike such a relatively mundane assertion of uncertainty of bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster that would only imply some logically possible creature that we haven't seen. God is not a logically possible being to begin with, so asserting his possible reality already puts you way into the bullshit zone, just like asserting the possible reality of Santa Claus hopping down every chimney in one night.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#286613 - 11/28/07 09:44 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
The Logic Of Origins

 Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
If it can be logically possible, then explain just one logical possible origin of a god. Something without origin is illogical. If you cannot even imagine such a possibility, then you're just running your mouth to say that it is possible.

Actually, I've provided several examples already in this thread. But I've also pointed out that I think the question is moot for Satanists, and repeatedly explained why.

I agree with Magister Nemo that Satanism shouldn't be pinned on Atheism. It is a weak foundation for such a strong religion.

The question of "God" or "no God" should not and does not define who I am.

I will be who I will be regardless.

And I am one who has learned the hard way that it is unwise to assume I know that which I do not.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286615 - 11/28/07 09:52 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
It is a weak foundation for such a strong religion.

Yet it is the foundation of the religion. Anton LaVey himself asserted that there is no God, in no uncertain terms. Maybe you're in the wrong place if atheism strikes such a sour note for you.

And I am one who has learned the hard way that it is unwise to assume I know that which I do not.

Do you know anything? If not, why presume to argue with someone who does?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#286617 - 11/28/07 10:11 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Shaky Foundations

 Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
Yet it is the foundation of the religion. Anton LaVey himself asserted that there is no God, in no uncertain terms. Maybe you're in the wrong place if atheism strikes such a sour note for you.

"It is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of 'God', as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best." -- Anton S. LaVey, The Satanic Bible

Which of you is right?
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If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286618 - 11/28/07 10:12 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Majic

Actually, I've provided several examples already in this thread.


You have provided nothing of the sort.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286619 - 11/28/07 10:13 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Nemo]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
edit: disregard that, I'm tired.


Edited by tovasshi (11/28/07 10:39 PM)
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Hi.

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#286621 - 11/28/07 10:17 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Majic

"It is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of 'God', as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best." -- Anton S. LaVey, The Satanic Bible

Which of you is right?


Not you.

Keep reading.

Finish reading that chapter, and the next.

Dr. LaVey writes, “IT is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of "God", as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best. Man has always created his gods, rather than his gods creating him. God is, to some, benign - to others, terrifying. To the Satanist "God" - by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all - is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live.” This is the passage I’ve seen people misinterpret as a call to some Crom-like Deism.

This “deistic” error is remedied by reading on to the next chapter where Dr. LaVey continues, “ALL religions of a spiritual nature are inventions of man. He has created an entire system of gods with nothing more than his carnal brain. Just because he has an ego, and cannot accept it, he has to externalize it into some great spiritual device which he calls ‘God.’” Clearly defining ALL religions as human invention.

Dr. LaVey continues, “If man needs such a god and recognizes that god, then he is worshipping an entity that a human being invented. Therefore, HE IS WORSHIPPING BY PROXY THE MAN THAT INVENTED GOD. Is it not more sensible to worship a god that he, himself, has created, in accordance with his own emotional needs – one that best represents the very carnal and physical being that has the idea-power to invent a god in the first place? If man insists on externalizing his true self in the form of "God", then why fear his true self, in fearing ‘God’, - why praise his true self in praising ‘God’, - why remain externalized from ‘God’ IN ORDER TO ENGAGE IN RITUAL AND RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HIS NAME?” Here we clearly see “God” reduced to the imaginary invention of a mundane, carnal, human being.

Dr. LaVey takes it even one step further, “Man needs ritual and dogma, but no law states that an externalized god is necessary in order to engage in ritual and ceremony performed in a god's name! Could it be that when he closes the gap between himself and his ‘God’ he sees the demon of pride creeping forth - that very embodiment of Lucifer appearing in his midst? He no longer can view himself in two parts, the carnal and the spiritual, but sees them merge as one, and then to his abysmal horror, discovers that they are only the carnal - AND ALWAYS WERE!” Here we have not only “God” but the “spiritual” itself reduced to the carnal.

This is an important point of Satanism, too frequently missed or avoided by those who have not shed their attachment to transcendental fantasies. Satanism is materialistic not only in the commonsense use of the term, but in the philosophical sense of the term.

You can disagree with materialism and/or atheism all you want, but to argue that Satanism is not a materialistic and atheistic philosophy is completely in contradiction with the philosophy as laid out by Dr. LaVey - that I happen to completely agree with on ALL of these counts.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286622 - 11/28/07 10:19 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
Do you know anything? If not, why presume to argue with someone who does?


Exactly.

Such is the inherent flaw in Sophist-style "logic."
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#286623 - 11/28/07 10:30 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Svengali]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
 Quote:
This of course raises the obvious question, what caused God? Even if you concede a “Big Bang” theory of the universe, the leap from that to a conscious sentient creator is a ridiculously huge leap. The argument that God is the ex nihilo creator, that he created everything out of nothing is an absurdity. Nothing can come from nothing. No power can create something from nothing. Power cannot create contradictions, because contradictions cannot exist as anything but verbal statements. For example; no amount of power can create a square circle. To create refers to shaping, making, constructing something from something. To say create implies or means that something is brought into existence from non-existence, not out of any prior raw material, is a meaningless and contradictory assertion. If the universe is "everything" how is "god" outside of it? This is all ridiculous bullshit and word-games.


Exactly.

Nothing from nothing violates the laws of physics, plain and simple.

It is an affront to reason.

To suggest otherwise would definitely indicate some scrambling ad hoc patchwork to any argument and couldn't be anything other than an a priori one at that.

And well, there's no practical or reasonable reason to give an argument like that the time of day.

To argue in the defense of God's existence is the equivalent of arguing for the existence of Bertrand Russel's Flying Teapot.

And well, that's just stupid.

Science is not in the business of giving equal voice to every cockamamie idea on the market.

God the Omnipotent one is inherently ridiculous before the word go.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#286624 - 11/28/07 10:35 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: reprobate]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
 Quote:
Maybe God will turn out to be a Satanist, too!


I had some friends write a paper on that, actually. They had a surprising amount of biblical evidence to support their claim that the Christian God behaves very Satanically. They did not, however, know that they were finding Satanic qualities. They only pointed out qualities that (to my privy eyes) are Satanic.

Might not be practical in any way... but it sure was amusing.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#286625 - 11/28/07 10:50 PM Re: No gray areas. [Re: Nemo]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
With all due respect, Magister, in order to entertain the notion that God might exist by resting your argument on the strange world of physics, have you considered that in order for something to be considered by physicists, it first has to be in physics?

The general consensus is that God is Omnipotent, thus eternal, begging the "nothing from nothing" clause.

But if that were the case, then the forces of physics didn't even exist.

Seems reasonable to suggest that the whole idea is just bunk and illustrates the less than impressive knowledge possessed - as we would judge it by today's scientific standards, of course - by the dessert dwelling storytellers who invented the whole charade.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#286626 - 11/28/07 11:02 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Svengali]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10123
Thank you!

I would further add that in my study of Satanism, it would certainly appear to me that Dr. LaVey did not simply build up his philosophy on such soft ground as "We do things this way and live by these standards" because he just thought they sounded good. He was far more sophisticated that to arbitrarily assign values.

The very first thing he did in The Satanic Bible was to thoroughly expound upon why God, spiritualism, religion, and every single article of faith, belief, or wish-it-were-true is utter bullshit and counter to the interests of a rational man. Only once he established this did he follow with the philosophy and dogma of Satanism, which required the atheistic, materialistic foundation to be a rational religion in the first place.

Trying to build Satanism on anything but a purely atheistic, materialistic foundation is going to find you making wrongheaded assertions - and belies a failure to understand the religion and duly credit LaVey with creating a fully coherent philosophy.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#286632 - 11/28/07 11:19 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Dr. LaVey was careful not to make any unwarranted assertions - especially regarding magic.

He referred to Satanism as a fusion of Logic and Magic.

The Satanic stance of atheism and materialism is not in contradiction with the Satanic understanding of magic - which avoids as many unwarranted hypotheses as possible, and does a good job of it. Just because something is not explained does not mean it isn't real, or useful. It also doesn't mean that it is the work of "spiritual forces" outside the spectrum of material phenomenon just because the guy in the lab coat hasn't wrapped his mind around it yet.

But it is counterproductive to discuss any of this in depth in the dim-witted cesspool of the public forums - it will quickly degenerate into idiotic posturing and fairy tale bullshit.

I will say this though; Jung has more genuine insight about it than Chopra, Capra, and their ilk, lost in the forests of parallel metaphors.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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