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#285334 - 11/23/07 03:33 PM Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism.
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Here a suggestion you certainly do not have to take.

Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism.

While it is popular in some circles to assume that science and reason have ruled out the possibility of God/s existing, they really have not.

To be able to prove the non-existence of God/s would require that we fully understand what is actually impossible in reality.

As the world's top physicists cannot yet agree on this issue, there is a problem with pretending to do this.

The Satanic posture is actually simpler and more powerful.

We do not care whether or not there is a big Juju in the sky!

We would be Satanists with or without big Juju.

We are pragmatists and simply do not see any advantage in bowing down to immature sociopathic homicidal maniacs (unless it would be to save our skins and get out of their reach in a crisis).

"Evangelical" atheists have not really matured enough from an advanced Satanic perspective in my opinion.

The need to "convert" the world to no faith in God interests the mature Satanist no more than the need to convert the world to its opposite.

Pragmatically speaking, most Satanists treat the universe as Godless because that seems to be the way things are.

Like a cat plays with a mouse, we sometimes enjoy playing with the emotional chains that lock evangelists of all stripes into their need to convert, but, at heart, we are really only playing.

Cats are cats and mice are mice.

If you are a cat you will understand what I mean.

If not, you won't.

Just a suggestion from my own personal opinion.

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#285335 - 11/23/07 03:51 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
Citizen Varrian Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 10/10/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Utah
Things like this make me kick myself in the ass for not already owning a copy of The Fire From Within.

Thank you very much for sharing your views on this.

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#285346 - 11/23/07 04:49 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Citizen Varrian]
mighty_honour_kr Offline


Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Scotland, United Kingdom
I have yet to see anyone here decry the existence of a God. As difficult as it is to prove that a God does not exist, it's still well within our power to estimate (close enough) how improbable a God such as that of the Christians might be?

And that is very improbable.

It is very much a fact however that some atheists try just as hard to convert people as their sworn enemies do.

I believe Christians and atheists are very much the same people. Christians profess they believe in heaven, hell and life after death, but at the same time almost all of them share a crippling fear of death, why? Wouldn't you be begging to die if you knew paradise was waiting there after?

It seems to me like the compulsion to convert as many people as is possible, is a direct result of their fears of being wrong and wasting their life. The more people they convert the more comfortable they feel with their decision to spend their one and only life groveling to please a mass murderer.

Strength in numbers if you will.

The same could be said for the atheists, every time they manage to convert someone it somehow validates their decision and helps them sleep at night, knowing they’re not going to burn for eternity, it's very weak minded.

But like you say, life is too short to waste worrying about whether or not someone else is wasting theirs.

Live and let waste, it's their problem.
_________________________
"Because we do not know when we will die, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. And yet everything happens only a certain number of times, and a very small number really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, an afternoon that is so deeply a part of your being that you cannot conceive of your life without it? Perhaps four, or five times more? Perhaps not even that. How many more times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless..."

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#285350 - 11/23/07 05:01 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: mighty_honour_kr]
Gryphon66 Offline


Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Georgia, USA
Unfortunately, many proclaimed atheists merely adopted the "religion" of scientism.

To me, a master by any other name still smells of excretia.
_________________________
I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another, nor ask another to live for mine. (paraphrase of Ayn Rand)

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#285360 - 11/23/07 05:34 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Gryphon66]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
 Originally Posted By: Gryphon66
Unfortunately, many proclaimed atheists merely adopted the "religion" of scientism.

To me, a master by any other name still smells of excretia.


Oh how badly do I want to strangle people who say "I believe in science" when being asked what their religion is. Science is NOT a religion, it's a process. Believing in it doesn't make it any more or less effective.

A very lucid point Magister, and something I've thought about myself but not so cogently. Indeed I'm involved in a discussion about atheism on a different message board and some of the atheists involved are equally as self righteous as the theists. My take, same as yours, is there's no way of verifying god's existence one way or the other so it's pretty much irrelevant to life here and now.
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All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

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#285367 - 11/23/07 06:10 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Scion]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
I think my signature and the words you used complement each other perfectly scion, belief is tantamount to ignoring or not wanting to see the truth which is itself unscientific just like "Christian Atheists" are a paradox in them selfs.

God or the existence thereof will only affect me when i actually see him her or it and if hes anything like his followers say he is we wont be getting along too well but i don't let it bother me i have much more important things to do with my time while i am alive and if i do die then it still wont matter to me because by that time i will have achieved most if not all i want to in my life.
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#285371 - 11/23/07 06:18 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Citizen Varrian]
Noordenzuid Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 194
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
So stop kicking yourself and purchase the book!

Simple I would think ;\)

HS!
_________________________
"For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life."

-Albert Camus

"To passion, to paradise, to pain, to night."


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#285404 - 11/23/07 09:53 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
HammerOfDoubt Offline


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 479
Loc: Miami, FL
What I've noticed from the major evangelical atheist groups is that their desire to convert the masses to atheism stems from a desire of avoiding the negative social consequences of popular religion, not necessarily from a desire to make everyone believe what they believe (though there are some of those as well).
_________________________
Mistaking insolence for freedom has always been the hallmark of the slave.
-Wilhelm Reich

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#285420 - 11/23/07 11:43 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Citizen Varrian]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
You are most welcome.

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#285421 - 11/23/07 11:49 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
I’m a Satanist first… and Atheism is secondary.

I still consider myself a “practical Atheist” in the sense that I don’t need an external God to function. I don’t know if there is some kind of deity somewhere in the Universe. But for practical purposes, my model of the Universe works perfectly without the presence of that deity.

When I say “My model” I mean the microscopic portion of the Universe that I can grasp with my limited senses and comprehension. Whether or not a God exists outside of that territory is irrelevant to me.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
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#285445 - 11/24/07 03:17 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Scion]
Trau Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Scion
My take, same as yours, is there's no way of verifying god's existence one way or the other so it's pretty much irrelevant to life here and now.


I understand your meaning here, but I'm going to apply a bit of a spin...

Although there is no way to prove that god does not exist, there IS a way to prove that he DOES exist. Unfortunately (or fortunately) he would have to exist in order to do so. If he DID exist, I would think he would manifest himself somehow, someway.

However, I'm not particularly concerned with whether he exists or not. If he did, he would have an awful lot of explaining to do. Then again, perhaps staying hidden is the best idea he's had! ;\)
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#285449 - 11/24/07 04:14 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Trau]
sinnersaint Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Rochester
Well put Nemo.

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#285451 - 11/24/07 04:29 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
Matthew_Whitby Offline
Banned

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 150
Loc: Australia
It is impossible to prove the existance of any higher-entity other than mand-kind in itself. I find the belief in anything supernatural to be quite delusional and idiotic, but then I think "what if I'm wrong?"

It is possible that there may be some deity surrounding us, but that wouldn't alter our thought-process for the one simple fact: even if it was proven, there would be and always will be hypocrisy. Since there have been "Gods" there has been killing in his name.

Science has not yet evolved enough to prove the existance of "God" or the mighty "Devil" and reality suggests (as well as common sense) that nothing exists above us as any supernatural-entity. We are the latter.

Thanks, Magister!

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#285515 - 11/24/07 12:19 PM The white crow. [Re: Matthew_Whitby]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
It is impossible to prove the existance of any higher-entity other than mand-kind in itself.


You have forgotten about cats.

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#285519 - 11/24/07 12:22 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: HammerOfDoubt]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Maybe.

Maybe not.

You are indulging in mind reading, after all.

Leon Festinger has other opinions that I share from his theory of Cognitive Consonance.

People come to believe in what they do.

Then they confabulate their "reasons" and believe these are true as well.

It is not easy to become conscious.

It is worth it however.

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#285520 - 11/24/07 12:26 PM God's silence. [Re: Trau]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
John Klein: I think we can assume that these entities are more advanced than us. Why don't they just come right out and tell us what's on their minds?

Alexander Leek: You're more advanced than a cockroach, have you ever tried explaining yourself to one of them?

-quotes from "The Mothman Prophesies" film.

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#285670 - 11/25/07 01:59 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
Magister Nemo,

I understand your post and totally agree with you.

But what keeps confusing me is the frequent statement by members of the priesthood that Satanism is atheism, especially in interviews.

One example is High Priest Peter Gilmore:
"Satanism begins with atheism. We begin with the universe and say, “It’s indifferent. There’s no God, there’s no Devil. No one cares!”

Did I miss something? Or is there any other explanation for this discrepancy?

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#285672 - 11/25/07 02:07 PM What you missed. [Re: John.Doe]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
You do not hear us saying, "I can prove that there is no God/s."

Satanism is not armchair philosophical speculation.

It is highly pragmatic.

Go to Google and you can swim in a sea of qualifications for what kinds of "atheism" there are.

Satanism does not need that kind of confusion.

Can we "prove" something that does not seem to exist does not exist?

Our answer is, "Even if it were somehow possible, why bother?"

When a Satanist chooses himself as his God, that bumps down all others types. ;\)

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#285688 - 11/25/07 02:44 PM Re: What you missed. [Re: Nemo]
John.Doe Offline


Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Germany
I did some reading on pragmatic atheism and think I understand now. Thank you for the clarification, Magister!

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#285704 - 11/25/07 03:02 PM Gad! Defined and everything! [Re: John.Doe]
Nemo Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
"Pragmatic atheism"? Defined in detail?

So what the heck! I looked it up again myself and found it under "implicit" and "explicit" and "strong" and "weak" as follows in
Wikipedia :

 Quote:
Rationale

"A child of the mob once asked an astronomer who the father was who brought him into this world. The scholar pointed to the sky, and to an old man sitting, and said: 'That one there is your body's father, and that your soul's.' To which the boy replied: 'WHAT IS ABOVE US IS OF NO CONCERN TO US, and I'm ashamed to be the child of such an aged man!' O WHAT SUPREME impiety, not to want to recognize your father, and not to think God is your maker!"[42]

Emblem illustrating practical atheism and its historical association with immorality, titled "Supreme Impiety: Atheist and Charlatan", from Picta poesis, by Barthélemy Aneau, 1552.The broadest demarcation with respect to atheistic rationale is between practical and theoretical atheism. The different forms of theoretical atheism each derive from a particular rationale or philosophical argument. In contrast, practical atheism requires no specific argument, and can include indifference to and ignorance of the idea of gods.


Practical atheism

In practical, or pragmatic, atheism, also known as apatheism, individuals live as if there are no gods and explain natural phenomena without resorting to the divine. The existence of gods is not denied, but may be designated unnecessary or useless; gods neither provide purpose to life, nor influence everyday life, according to this view.[43] A form of practical atheism with implications for the scientific community is methodological naturalism—the "tacit adoption or assumption of philosophical naturalism within scientific method with or without fully accepting or believing it."[44]

Practical atheism can take various forms:

Absence of religious motivation—belief in gods does not motivate moral action, religious action, or any other form of action;
Active exclusion of the problem of gods and religion from intellectual pursuit and practical action;
Indifference—the absence of any interest in the problems of gods and religion; or
Ignorance—lacking any idea of gods.[45]
Historically, practical atheism has been associated with moral failure, willful ignorance and impiety. Those considered practical atheists were said to behave as though God, ethics and social responsibility did not exist; they abandoned duty and embraced hedonism. According to the French Catholic philosopher Étienne Borne, "Practical atheism is not the denial of the existence of God, but complete godlessness of action; it is a moral evil, implying not the denial of the absolute validity of the moral law but simply rebellion against that law."[46]


I usually do not quote defintions but this was a real wonker.

It even included the implication of being morally evil!

And, yes, I would say that summarized the details of the matter.

The thing to remember is that in order to prove that something is impossible in reality would require that you truly and fully understand the nature of reality.

The top minds in physics today agree that they do not know.

Therefore any argument that sets out to prove that God (or the Devil or all his little wizards) does not exist is based on FAITH.

If you read that last sentence over and over so that it really sinks in then you will never again be quick to assume that magic is impossible, for example.

There do exist mysteries in the universe simply because unlike the Lord God Jehovah (and his look-alike Gods, Goddesses, Avatars, Devils, Demons and Oompah-Loompahs) we do not claim to already know everything about reality.

Thus the "atheist" who claims he can prove that there is no God is only embarrassing himself whether he knows it or not.

When Church officials stand up before sound-bite reporters to attempt to explain the Church of Satan's position on such things they know that we must use very small words in very short sentences.

Context is everything.

"Satanism requires study."
-Anton LaVey

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#285801 - 11/25/07 08:07 PM Proving A Negative [Re: Nemo]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
The Little Religion That Couldn't

 Originally Posted By: Nemo
Therefore any argument that sets out to prove that God (or the Devil or all his little wizards) does not exist is based on FAITH.

Precisely. The truth is that "Atheism" (as opposed to "Agnosticism", for example) is as much a religious choice as those it seeks to repudiate.

Declaring that there is no God requires as much a leap of faith as declaring that there is a God.

In fact it requires a bit more faith, because whatever the nature of gods might be -- whether supernatural beings, popular fantasies, subtle memetic viruses or God-knows-what -- the influence of gods on human behavior is supremely well-documented and indisputably strong.

Common Atheism seems to be closely related to the Religion of Science, which is based on ignorance and conceptual perversion of what Science actually is: applied philosophy.

The creed of the Religion of Science is: "If Science can't explain it, it doesn't exist."

Both Atheism and the Religion of Science are systems of belief rooted in the fallacy that absence of evidence constitutes evidence of absence -- and are thus inherently irrational.

Irony abounds.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#285806 - 11/25/07 08:39 PM Real science is wonderful. [Re: Majic]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I applaud the efforts of those true practitioners of the scientific method.

Starting as they do from doubt, Satanists feel very comfortable indeed with their efforts.

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#285814 - 11/25/07 10:30 PM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Majic]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
 Originally Posted By: Majic
The Little Religion That Couldn't

 Originally Posted By: Nemo
Therefore any argument that sets out to prove that God (or the Devil or all his little wizards) does not exist is based on FAITH.

Precisely. The truth is that "Atheism" (as opposed to "Agnosticism", for example) is as much a religious choice as those it seeks to repudiate.

Declaring that there is no God requires as much a leap of faith as declaring that there is a God.


While I agree with what Magister Nemo said, I do not entirely agree with you here. You have taken an extra step that is not correct.

While setting out to prove the non-existence of God must be based on faith to some degree, declaring that God does not exist need not be. The conclusion that God does not exist may arise from a true scientific investigation/experimentation.

 Quote:
Both Atheism and the Religion of Science are systems of belief rooted in the fallacy that absence of evidence constitutes evidence of absence -- and are thus inherently irrational.


While absence of evidence for anything cannot prove the absence of it, it does suggest that non-belief is entirely more rational than belief. This is suggested in the principle of Occam's Razor.

While non-belief is technically a form of belief (belief to the contrary), in this sense it has little practical difference to an intellectual 'agnostic' who accepts that a personal god is ridiculously unlikely.

Also, applied philosophy is a misleading definition of what science actually is.

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#285830 - 11/25/07 11:43 PM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Mr Sam]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
With Faith, All Things Are Possible

 Originally Posted By: Mr Sam
While setting out to prove the non-existence of God must be based on faith to some degree, declaring that God does not exist need not be. The conclusion that God does not exist may arise from a true scientific investigation/experimentation.

How?

A Madness To The Method

 Originally Posted By: Mr Sam
Also, applied philosophy is a misleading definition of what science actually is.

Why do you consider that description misleading?

Can Science exist exclusive of an applied philosophy?

If so, how?
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#285834 - 11/26/07 12:00 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: John.Doe]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
Atheism assumes that no force outside ourselves exists.

Satanism states that no forces contrary to our personal inclinations need following.

When speaking to a society that assumes some force outside ourselves influences our lives we begin our explanation by negating their assumption. Satanic thought follows, even in the quote you point to. High Priest Gilmore does not say that we are atheists. He says there is no God and no Devil - he refers to standard definitions of those entities; definitions which imply that those beings directly and obviously effect our lives, often contrary to our natural desires. Satanists know that no such deities exist. So in this sense we are atheists.

However, Magister Nemo refers to a different atheism. He refers to an atheism that insists that no force exists outside of ourselves; that we can prove through evidence and personal experience that no force exists. Such assumptions are poppycock and contrary to scientific thought.
_________________________
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#285907 - 11/26/07 03:43 AM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Majic]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
If I knew how I would be rich, or dead.

This explains why I find the definition you gave misleading, quite well.

Philosophy is a different subject to science. They are both theoretical subjects, but very different.

Science is no more applied Philosophy than Philosophy is applied Science.

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#285946 - 11/26/07 10:38 AM Re: Gad! Defined and everything! [Re: Nemo]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
 Quote:
When a Satanist chooses himself as his God, that bumps down all others types.


This is a lovely thread and I thank you for posting it Magister.

Funny thing is that I was mulling this over in My head the other day.

I sat and pondered the Xtians belief in the 'Apocalypse'. I sat and wondered..... why do people care? Really why?

Fear is a factor I'm sure. What better way to get someone to do your will than by scaring 'the hell out of them' or... into them?

Now then I went a step further. I said to Myself that Scientifically I cannot DISPROVE that a god exist. I CANNOT disprove that there will be four horsemen.

Then I laughed.

I honestly don't care if they DO exist because.....I have made MYSELF My own god and I trump anything else that MAY or MAY NOT exist out there.

To say with certainty that something does NOT exist is foolish. To go with what We know Scientifically thus far is a much better choice I feel.

Years ago, people would have laughed at the thought of a heart transplant, of cloning, of a vast many things We now not only know are a possibility but a reality.

What is important to one is a waste to others and god is a waste to Me even if he/she/it WERE to be PROVEN to exist.

So, after this long response, I have made My choice and am most comfortable with that choice of being My own god.

I am a Satanist.
I am a Vampire.
Lastly, I am an Atheist.

A good combination Me thinks.
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#285949 - 11/26/07 10:45 AM Re: Gad! Defined and everything! [Re: Evil_Eve]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Yeah, well according to my friend who watched fourty minutes of a one hour special about the end of the world, it will take place in 2012. I believe her because once we were eating lunch, and she drank some bad milk. She predicted she would be sick later, and GUESS WHAT? That's right.

Well, I guess she was also lactose intolerant...but, haha, that hardly has any bearing, and only some kind of skeptic would be foolish enough to think that she had just predicted the obvious, and did NOT have some precognative abilities.

So, 2012, the end of the world, make sure to mark that on your calendar. I would SUGGEST you all go the dry cleaner a few days before, because people are going to want to look their best. Don't believe me? We will see who is laughing when all those with mustard stains on their dresses and suits are cast into the flames of hell for looking a mockery before god.

That's fine and good, but do you really want to be looking sloppy for the devil?

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#285952 - 11/26/07 11:04 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I have probably mentioned that I have used the term “atheist” to describe myself. Probably for the same reason I have heard members of the hierarchy use that term to define, very partially, the satanic philosophy. It’s a fairly easy thing for the rank and file to understand. The garden-variety average person takes that to mean we do not believe in Jehovah, Allah or any other sentient, anthropomorphic being. Beyond that, there is probably a lot of variety constituting Church of Satan membership…at least, if one had a private, honest conversation.

The reason I do not identify with the title, “atheist”, may, or may not be understood by others. For me, it tends to domesticate Satanism. People can handle an atheist. But, can they handle somebody who really puts their own ability to think rationally above conventional wisdom. What if they knew that your end all was yourself, and those you chose to hold dear. You have no ring in your nose called “universal compassion” for them to steer you in one direction or another. I do not know how safe somebody would feel around us if they knew that we had no fear of eternal judgment to act as some sort of invisible fence to keep us from running amuck. I absolutely know that most people I run into feel that, if there were no god, they would do unspeakable things. I have been told this by I cannot keep count of how many. My own father told me that, if he could do whatever he wanted, he would join the Mafia. My mother has been honest enough to tell me that it is her fear of Hell that has kept her from doing certain things.

To “them”, we are wild animals. We are like a tiger that, even if it has not yet attacked, who knows what will keep them from showing their true stripes.

Atheism is comfy, safe, and an easy target for believers to attack.

Satanism is The Feared Religion.
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#285954 - 11/26/07 11:11 AM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Majic]
Xaira Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 142
Loc: South Carolina
Good science always exists exclusive of philosophy. Good, solid science has to be independent of biased philosophy. That is one of the most basic ideas behind the scientific method.

Science can support philosophy, or certain philosophies can give incentive to begin scientific studies, but correctly researched science cannot be called applied philosophy.

Are we overlooking the basics to create an argument?
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#285961 - 11/26/07 11:45 AM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Mr Sam]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
While absence of evidence for anything cannot prove the absence of it, it does suggest that non-belief is entirely more rational than belief. This is suggested in the principle of Occam's Razor.

While non-belief is technically a form of belief (belief to the contrary), in this sense it has little practical difference to an intellectual 'agnostic' who accepts that a personal god is ridiculously unlikely.


I agree with everything that you've said here, Mr. Sam, and I'd like to add one more thing.

You CAN prove a negative.

You can show that its negation (the positive) leads to a contradiction, or is logically incoherent, or meaningless.

Or you can show that the positive claim would require a proof that exceeds the conditions for the possibility of any finite being's understanding. If you not only don't have a proof of the positive, but plead that you CAN'T have a proof of the positive - well, that's a prima facie reason to take the negative.

Claims for the existence of God are of the latter sort. All the rational proofs ever given depend upon fallacies. There can be no empirical evidence, because evidence can only give natural causes, not supernatural. That's all the proof you need to assert the negative.

Physicists don't have a monopoly on methods of proof. Physicists can't prove whether God exists or not, because the existence of God isn't within the purview of physics. Neither can they prove whether 2+2=4. That's something for mathematicians to prove. Likewise, there are specifically philosophical proofs. Different questions call for different methods.


Edited by reprobate (11/26/07 11:54 AM)
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#285967 - 11/26/07 12:12 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Magister, I have one big reservation about this strategy.

I think, at a fundamental level, we agree. I take it that your underlying premise here is that Satanism is not a metaphysical belief about the True Nature of the Universe. Rather, Satanism is a pragmatic life philosophy. It's based on the human need for ritual and dogma celebrating individual reason and imagination, in a world where might makes right. Satanic dogma doesn't have anything particular to say about deep philosophical issues - those are problems for personal application and elaboration. Also, there is nothing to be gained by becoming atheist evangelists.

But, in my view, all of this only makes sense if you do not believe in God.

You say:
 Quote:
We would be Satanists with or without big Juju.

We are pragmatists and simply do not see any advantage in bowing down to immature sociopathic homicidal maniacs (unless it would be to save our skins and get out of their reach in a crisis).

Here's my problem with this position.

If might makes right, and there is an omniscient creator, then his sociopathic homicidal dictates are absolutely right.

Almighty makes Alrighty.

In a world where God exists and can punish sinners or resurrect the obedient, according to his whims, then there is no reason to be a Satanist at all. The pragmatic thing to do would be to please the maniac. It's the only way to get the Big Carrot (resurrection) and avoid the Big Stick (Hell).

All of our normal arguments for obeying the law would go all the moreso for obeying the Law.

Christians know all this. That's why they think of Satanists as pathetic losers, fighting against God as if we could win.

Now I, for one, don't find the alleged existence of Big Juju to be credible, not at all. If I did, even a little bit credible, then the only pragmatic thing would be to play Big Juju's game. But I don't, so I won't. I'm a Satanist, because I'm an atheist.
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#285970 - 11/26/07 12:40 PM Exactly right. [Re: reprobate]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
...there is no reason to be a Satanist at all...
(My emphasis).

Yes.

There is no reason.

That is because we are simply born that way.

Or, if you prefer, it's God's fault since he made us this way. ;\)

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#285978 - 11/26/07 01:13 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
Jack_Lantern Offline
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Posts: 2785
Loc: America
Goodguy Badges and the people that polish them are everywhere.
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#286003 - 11/26/07 02:47 PM Re: Gad! Defined and everything! [Re: TheDegenerate]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
I saw this special, and while it was convincing and a few friends think this is true, The same claims have been made repeatedly throughout recent times with no end of the world. Besides that there seems to be a market of literature surrounding this speculation which makes it seem like selling books is the motivation behind such theories. Call me a cynic.

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#286117 - 11/26/07 11:49 PM Re: Proving A Negative [Re: Xaira]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Philosophy Versus Philosophistry

 Originally Posted By: Mr Sam
Science is no more applied Philosophy than Philosophy is applied Science.
 Originally Posted By: Equality72523
Science can support philosophy, or certain philosophies can give incentive to begin scientific studies, but correctly researched science cannot be called applied philosophy.

The word "philosophy" can have several meanings, most of which have nothing to do with Philosophy as a separate, formal academic discipline.

For example, one can have a philosophy regarding the best way to play tennis. If the philosophy is sound, then applying it can lead to desirable results. Likewise with any field of study or endeavor, including Science.

The word "science" also has various meanings. When I use the capitalized form, it is to refer to the practice of science, the body of knowledge accumulated therefrom and the methods used to accomplish scientific research -- or "Science as a whole".

Within Science are many different kinds of scientific disciplines, but all of them share a common philosophy: that of discovering truth through the systematic application of logical analysis -- techniques such as the scientific method, for example -- or "applied philosophy", if you will.

To suggest that Science could exist without an underlying philosophy (or philosophies) is to disregard the meaning and significance of both.

The Google: applied philosphy link provided by Mr Sam turns up quite a few references that seem to have a degree of formality in Commonwealth nations that is not extant here in the U.S., and that may well explain what's actually in dispute here (perhaps we're separated by a common language?). And indeed, I strongly suspect this argument is ultimately semantic, which would make it ultimately pointless.

I maintain that Science is applied philosophy, consider that to be a very accurate two-word description of what Science is, and do not stand corrected. ;\)

Proof Negative

Getting back to the topic, Magister Nemo's assertion stands without credible challenge, which is noteworthy.

reprobate made a good point regarding proving a negative. It is most definitely possible to prove a negative, provided there are sufficient facts to do so.

That, of course, is the rub when attempting to disprove the existence of God.

What makes the challenge even more slippery is the fact that there is so much disagreement and inconsistency concerning what "God" actually is.

Probably the most generic description of "God" (versus "gods" or various other terms) would be "whoever or whatever created the universe" -- but even that simple qualification is itself subject to contention.

If accepted, however, then the existence of God could be reasonably inferred by virtue of the fact that the universe exists -- or that at least God existed at the point the universe was created.

Going a step further, God could just as well be defined as "everything without exception". Thus if anything exists, God exists.

Which rather conveniently leads to what the debate actually involves: not necessarily whether God exists, but the nature of God.

Obviously there is a great deal of disagreement over the nature of God, and indeed most religious strife can be directly attributed to it.

For the Satanist, however, the question is moot.

Why?

Because if you're a Satanist, YOU are God.

End of debate.






P.S. Magister Nemo's assertion regarding cats also stands without credible challenge.

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#286123 - 11/27/07 12:41 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
>>We do not care whether or not there is a big Juju in the sky<<

The whole religious definition of God is absolute bullshit and, to me, Satanism pragmatically opposes the concept.

By pragmatically oppose I refer to how we apply Satanism in our lives - free of this ludicrous conception.

What I don't care about is whether they agree with me or not. The onus is not on me to prove a negative.

I feel that Satanism is grounded in its logical conviction that God does not exist and to acknowledge that there might be a Juju in the sky is undermining that pragmatic conviction.

The Satanic Bible flatly calls them on their bullshit - "No redeemer liveth" - "All this is fraud" - and frankly I see no need to compromise that position in the face of hogwash.

I am an atheist and, at least to me, Satanism remains steadfast in its opposition of such mystical dogma. No hoary falsehood shall encamp my pen.

It's bullcrap. And we call them on it. Don't give the bastards an inch.
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#286125 - 11/27/07 12:44 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Reverend, I like this way of putting it!
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#286140 - 11/27/07 06:28 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Dr. LaVey makes two basic assertions about "God" in The Satanic Bible:

1. The term "God" is so general you may as well use it to apply to something you like or that makes more sense, like to the forces of nature in general. He does this without implying any "prime mover" or "watchmaker" or ex nihilo "creator." I've seen some people claim that this is a premise for some kind of Satanic Deism, but this is refuted by the very next chapter:

2. All gods, including "God," were the inventions of man. By worshipping them you are therefore worshipping the men who created them by proxy. He advocated eliminating the idea AND the middle-man, and worshipping yourself.

He is also explicit that there is no Devil aside from carnal man.

Magus Gilmore has made several statements in print and interviews that Satanism is Atheistic, more recently saying "Satanism begins with atheism." He frequently uses the terms "skeptical," "Epicurean" and "atheistic" to accurately describe Satanism.

Dr. LaVey has also stated that Satanism is not merely atheistic, it is anti-Theistic.

A lot of confusion arises because the term "atheism" literally means "without god" - in itself it does not mean anything one way or another about god's existence other than the Atheist is without religious belief, just as the asocial person is not interested in social interaction without being ANTI-social.

It is closer to what people mean by the common use of the term "agnostic" which means literally "without knowledge." Someone can not know for sure but still "believe." Which is fairly silly unless it is an act of suspended disbelief for a specific reason.

The strongest arguments for the existence of god are so circular in begging the question that they are readily dismantled.

So-called "strong atheism" seems a little arrogant, when it comes to strongly asserting the non-existence of something, but when it is something so absurd as "God", the strong position is not so far-fetched.

If someone were to assert the non-existence of the Easter Bunny, in the sense of an actual anthropomorphic rabbit, most people would agree without hesitation. The case for the existence "God" is only stronger than the case for the Easter Bunny because no one has bothered to argue for the Easter Bunny. The case for the existence of god makes about as much sense.

It is arguing for a meaningless and patently absurd concept.

Strongly asserting "God does not exist" is no less arrogant than asserting "A twelve-galaxy-tall chocolate bunny does not exist."

Someone can always ask "How do you know for sure?" And yes, while you have not empirically proven the non-existence of the twelve-galaxy-tall chocolate bunny, the weight of probability is so grossly in favor of its non-existence that there are more productive and less nonsensical cosmic problems to devote your time to.

I personally think it is well-founded to assert that Satanism is both Atheistic AND Anti-theistic.

If you can't tell, I happened to be in the middle of writing a LONG article about Satanism and Atheism when this thread came up. ;\)
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"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
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#286145 - 11/27/07 07:38 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Svengali]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
HEAR HEAR!
True, undefiled wisdom!

Thank you very much, Magister.
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#286206 - 11/27/07 11:09 AM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Svengali]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
>> A lot of confusion arises because the term "atheism" <<

Yes. I should have added that neither do I care what connotations they attach to the word. For purposes here I was stating that my stance is that Satanism does NOT recognise a stupid concept in the first place - and as you assert, is indeed anti-theistic.

Anton LaVey was, as you know, extremely exacting in his opposition to the whole concept - intentionally brutal towards those people "in positions of authority thinking muddled thoughts."

But the public forums are not the place to discuss that in depth.
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#286273 - 11/27/07 03:51 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Svengali]
Xaira Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 142
Loc: South Carolina
You know, if I didn't hear so many clever fellows saying exactly what's on my mind, I'd have to type more.

Good points, Magister!
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devilchili

"You have to know how to accept rejection and reject acceptance." - Ray Bradbury

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#286307 - 11/27/07 08:05 PM Just don't get it backwards. [Re: Svengali]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The true disbeliever is as bad as the true believer.

The theistic evangelist is as obnoxious as the atheistic evangelist.

Neither can truly be Satanists if they make claims to absolute proofs.

As I have mentioned before, since the top minds in physics are still not there that closes the issue.

If "atheist" had only one definition things would not be so complicated (and would not require these kinds of clarifications either).

As "atheist" covers a wide spectrum of meanings, it remains important to not pin your Satanism on your atheism.

Do it the other way around and you will never have a problem.

Simple.

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#286312 - 11/27/07 08:38 PM "Absolute" proof. [Re: Nemo]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Magister, I think I'd be more comfortable with your position if you distinguished between probability and fallibility.

When, say, a mathematician or a philosopher constructs a proof, he doesn't say, "This is probably true." What he says is, "I'm reasonably sure this is true. I might be wrong; others should check my steps, and my opinion is open to revision if I've made a mistake. But if I didn't make a mistake, then this is not just probably true, or true for most cases; it's quite certain to be true for all cases that satisfy conditions x, y, and z. And I can't doubt it unless I have some particular reason to think I made a mistake."

Satanists should hold all their judgments as fallible. We can make mistakes in our reasoning. But it doesn't mean we should hold all our judgments as merely guesses.


Edited by reprobate (11/27/07 08:45 PM)
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#286330 - 11/27/07 09:34 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: reprobate]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Breaking The Chains Of False Certainty

"The truth alone has never set anyone free. It is only DOUBT which will bring mental emancipation." -- Anton S. LaVey, The Satanic Bible

"3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!" -- Anton S. LaVey, The Nine Satanic Statements

"4. Self-deceit—It’s in the 'Nine Satanic Statements' but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!" -- Anton S. LaVey, The Nine Satanic Sins

To believe you know something you do not actually know is to sin against yourself.

To be your own god does not confer infallibility upon you.

There is no shame in embracing skepticism, only in embracing the folly of false beliefs.

To thine own self be true.

Hammer Of The Gods

As for God, I maintain that for the Satanist, the question is moot.

If it were proven beyond all doubt that the God of Christianity was the "One True God and Creator of All That Is", or that "there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet", or that the Jewish Messiah has come forth and delivered Israel from the gentiles, or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is Lord Of All Mankind and demands blood sacrifice, would it matter?

Would you worship such a being? Or do you find the idea of bowing before any being utterly intolerable?

What sort of Satanist would kneel before any god, real or imagined?

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#286332 - 11/27/07 09:43 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Majic]
Danny Mc. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2143
Loc: Taxationland
 Quote:
What sort of Satanist would kneel before any god, real or imagined?


If he/she was paying my rent, polishing my horn, and putting food on my table, I would give it some serious consideration. ;\)
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"Follow Me!", John M. (Delta).

"I've learned that you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than you think." Something Magistra Isabel posted. laugh

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#286334 - 11/27/07 09:48 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Danny Mc.]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Well, you got me there.





(And Happy Birthday, by the way!)


Edited by Majic (11/27/07 09:52 PM)
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#286335 - 11/27/07 09:52 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Majic]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
What sort of Satanist would kneel before any god, real or imagined?

A pragmatic one.

Defying a REAL omnipotent, omniscient creator and judge - that would be the ultimate futile gesture.

Satanism stands in opposition to traditional theistic religions because they're human institutions, organs of oppression based on lies. In a world where theistic religions were actually God's institutions, based on truth, then the Satanist would be an idiot.

Luckily, we don't live in that world!
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#286337 - 11/27/07 09:53 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: reprobate]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Well, you got me there, too. ;\)



Edit to add: Although I like to think that even in such a situation, the true Satanist would find a way to rebel and subvert the system.

After all, we're talking about Satanists here.


Edited by Majic (11/27/07 09:55 PM)
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#286339 - 11/27/07 09:57 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: reprobate]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven?
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#286341 - 11/27/07 10:04 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Majic]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Yeah, I've mulled over that dilemma myself.

No question, I'd suck up to a corrupt mortal authority figure to survive. But, eternity is a long time to suck up to somebody, and it's especially risky if they can allegedly read your mind. On the other hand, mooning somebody and then having to endure eternal torment isn't good either.

I would tend to hope that there'd be a third side or other option, of course.
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#286342 - 11/27/07 10:08 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Milton wrote that line for the loser in his story. We've adopted it out of irony, because we don't believe in Heaven and Hell. In our use, "Hell" is the world, as it really is; "Heaven" is the fantasy that justifies conformism and stupidity. We identify with the character of Satan, because of what God represents as a myth or story.

But that's not what Milton meant - he thought God and Satan were real beings, and Heaven and Hell were literal places, and he thought the claim was false. Not least because nobody actually reigns in Hell, least of all damned mortals.

Like Majic says, this is all a fun conjecture, but doesn't add up to much, really.


Edited by reprobate (11/27/07 10:25 PM)
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#286343 - 11/27/07 10:16 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: TrojZyr]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
The thing is, if God was truly the asshole he's been made out to be, then living in his presence for eternity would be more agonizing for me than enduring the worst Dante, Bosch or anyone else could dream up.

If God was indeed omniscient, he would know this and punish me anyway. It's not something I could hide.

As it is, it seems unlikely that any of us merits such attention, any more than any bug which splatters against my windshield would.

Still it's fun to conjecture. \:\)
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#286351 - 11/27/07 10:54 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: reprobate]
ABZU Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1226
Loc: Oregon
 Quote:

In a world where theistic religions were actually God's institutions, based on truth, then the Satanist would be an idiot.


I guess that means me.

You can tie a pair of bunny ears to a lion, because you like bunnies, and the lion is still going to fuck you up when you try to cuddle it. The lion can pretend to be a bunny when it suits his interests, but underneath he is not and will never be a bunny.

As Magister Nemo was getting at, it makes no difference either way.
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Church of Satan

"As I have stated, the paradox where more people are "talking" dark forces up, down, and sideways, but fewer than ever are actually living as night people, provokes speculation. The moral here is that when everybody's talking, very few are doing. More time is spent comparing notes with aficionados than in enjoying the hobby per se."
A.S.L. / T.D.N.

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#286374 - 11/28/07 02:04 AM Re: Just don't get it backwards. [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
>> The true disbeliever is as bad as the true believer. <<

Not really.

This is a misconception due to the fact that society has been permeated with the notion that a God exists in the first place.

It is a bullshit concept based on a political treatise that was created for control. Who knows why the crap has endured - certainly it isn't by the production of any facts.

A court of law does not attempt to prove a murder that never was.

I say it's a load of bullshit - there is simply no way that a God, pertaining to any of these religious constructs, exists. The concept was created by liars.

I'm just not going to start preaching it because apart from the fact I could not give a fuck what they think, Satanism, in it's absolute anti-theistic stance, is not meant for the masses and their sponge brains that soak up this crap; which brings us to the question Dr. LaVey asks:

"when will people get it through their heads there is no God?"





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#286382 - 11/28/07 03:59 AM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Majic]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
>> the true Satanist would find a way to rebel and subvert the system. <<

Although non of us here (even we as members of the priesthood) are under any obligation to agree with every single word Dr. LaVey said, my own thinking on this matter is much more in line with the Dok's.

In Blanche Barton's The Church Of Satan Anton LaVey unequivocally asserts his commitment to destroy the concept of God and Christianity.

He asserted that absolute opposition forces the card, and to prevent the swing of the pendulum in their favour what is required is a "Satanically alligned reaction to the present obvious inequities."

He does not advocate atheistic avangelism. He advocates "active opposition." That is to say, through the application of our established Satanic principles.

Personally, I do not think he could be clearer in stating that there is no room for "tolerance" of their bullshit.
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#286396 - 11/28/07 05:21 AM Active Opposition [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Of course that opens up an entirely different can of worms, as direct religious conflicts go far beyond the question of the existence of deities -- although there may be some rather novel considerations involved.

Satanists do not have a monopoly on the use of magic.

All religions incorporate it in some form or another, and the same principles underlying the successful application of Satanic magic apply to other religions as well.

The specifics and mechanics are unknown to me, but if you get a group of people to synchronize and focus their will on something, interesting things can happen. Things that Science cannot currently explain.

Whether it's the power of suggestion, collective unconscious, the id, juju, mojo, chi, karma, tao, hocus-pocus, fairies, demons, spirits, flower power or whatever, magic can and does work -- though not always as expected, intended or desired.

Aside from the more "mundane" concerns of opposing other religions, the power of magic should not be underestimated, especially when millions or billions of people are involved. When large groups of people pray to a god, they empower it (whatever "it" may be) and what results can be quite miraculous -- or catastrophic.

Whether or not a distinct, substantial "god" is summoned or brought into being by such processes is quite debatable, of course (viz. this thread), but the effects of belief in gods are some of the most powerful forces to have shaped human history and the world we live in today, and it would be unwise to underestimate or dismiss their significance out of hand.

On a more practical level, there's no shortage of examples -- historical and current -- to illustrate that crossing swords with religious fanatics is a dangerous business.

Wherever possible, I prefer to cross words, instead. ;\)

_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286397 - 11/28/07 05:29 AM Re: Active Opposition [Re: Majic]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
>> -- to illustrate that crossing swords with religious fanatics is a dangerous business. <<

You have misunderstood Dr. LaVey's words.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#286398 - 11/28/07 05:42 AM Re: Active Opposition [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
I'm always open to further clarification. \:\)
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286445 - 11/28/07 10:53 AM Re: Active Opposition [Re: Majic]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Too true. After 10,000 years with the likes of Jesus Christ, Jerry Falwell, Moses, Pat Robertson, Yhwh, et al, even my legendary patience and good humor would wear out.

I wonder if there's any gun shops in Heaven? I imagine there are, because if they let in everyone who simply repents and accepts Jesus, Heaven's probably a rough neighborhood. So, I'd just have to think about brick walls as I went and bought myself a rocket launcher.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#286452 - 11/28/07 11:23 AM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Majic]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
What sort of Satanist would kneel before any god, real or imagined?


I am sick of hearing this predictable, parroted line. The sentiment is a sham; a posturing of courage intended to prove...what?

The same folks who, in the anonymous safety of the internet,
here claim that they "would NEVER bow before any god, if one were real,"
are the same folks who pay their taxes because they are afraid of the government men and their big guns who'll surely come knocking on their door.


If there really existed an omnipotent god, worthy of mortal fear, your "decision" to not worship it would surely be of the smallest consequence. Lucky for us, one doesn't seem to exist in this universe.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#286453 - 11/28/07 11:34 AM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California



Satanism does not dictate supreme power, only as much control over personal well being as possible. If praising Allah was in our best interest, because we happen to be women living in Iran, we will do that. If going to Catholic Mass is in our best interest because we live in Southern Ireland then we'll that. Satanism does not advocate martyrdom.


As for the existence of an entity resembling the contemporary definitions of deities, for a bunch of people who really don't care either way, we sure seem to have spent a lot of time discussing it.

 Quote:
Here a suggestion you certainly do not have to take.


PS. Please excuse the use of "we" as a generalization for Satanists. I only mean to refer to the specific groups implied.


Edited by Drimlybunk (11/28/07 11:40 AM)
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#286460 - 11/28/07 12:05 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Drimlybunk]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
Nicely put, Drimlybunk.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#286475 - 11/28/07 01:40 PM Yep. That's the essence. [Re: Majic]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
If it were proven beyond all doubt that the God of Christianity was the "One True God and Creator of All That Is", or that "there is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet", or that the Jewish Messiah has come forth and delivered Israel from the gentiles, or that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is Lord Of All Mankind and demands blood sacrifice, would it matter?

Would you worship such a being? Or do you find the idea of bowing before any being utterly intolerable?

What sort of Satanist would kneel before any god, real or imagined?


I can see where I may have to break this down with examples eventually however you have touched on the heart of the matter as I see it.

The Satanist is the way he is not because he first "knows" there is no God to intimidate, entice or punish him.

The Satanist is the way he is whether there is a God around or not.

THEN he may look around and say, "I sure don't see any evidence that there is this God fellow around. In fact, looks to me as though he probably doesn't exist."

But - and this is crucial to understand my point - the Satanist starts as he is and later will probably assume the atheistic perspective once he bothers to think about it.

The Satanist will almost certainly end up as an atheist ("I don't believe there is a God").

But he doesn't need that to begin with.

He would be the way he is whether there was no God or one hundred billion of 'em!

That is why it is said:

"Satanists are born, not made."

All atheists are made. They have to at some point make a decision to not believe in God.

(Explanation: First you have to have to learn about the notion of a "God" before you can then decide he doesn't seem to be in the neighborhood at all).

Satanists, like all true members of the Addams Family are just simply the way we are.

Born, not made.

Simple.

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#286478 - 11/28/07 01:55 PM Not necessarily courageous defiance! [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
The same folks who, in the anonymous safety of the internet, here claim that they "would NEVER bow before any god, if one were real," are the same folks who pay their taxes because they are afraid of the government men and their big guns who'll surely come knocking on their door.


There would undoubtedly be some who would indeed walk up to one of the seventeen-foot angels with swords patrolling the streets and say, "Up yours and the God you rode in on."

But far more likely, the Satanists who would try to go along with the theocratic dictatorship would, just because of their nature screw up sooner or later anyway.

There you are, trying to do "the acceptable things" to not get squished by the Lord's Boys - maybe you're trying to sing in the choir again - but there's nothing for it. You just screw up sooner or later because of your fundamental nature.

A Satanist can potentially handle a human dictatorship by using great street smarts, but - face it! - we are fundamentally smart asses.

Sooner or later we would end up giving the Big Guy the finger before we could prevent it.

We are just born that way!

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#286484 - 11/28/07 02:17 PM It is amazing to me... [Re: reprobate]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
It is amazing to me how we are saying the same things but not connecting here.

One more time:

(1) We cannot yet prove what is "impossible".

Physics presents us with physical contradictions in reality.

These are real.

Contradictions are real.

Keep reading that and you will finally get this.

(2) The atheist who says, "I can prove God is impossible", can't.

Blame the physicists.

This is atheism based on FAITH.

The faith is the assumption that because God seems impossible then God is impossible.

THIS ASSUMPTION CANNOT BE PROVEN!

At least not yet.

Maybe later.

We will have to wait until physics comes through.

Until then, that is the way it is.

(3) The atheist who says, "I do not believe there is a God", is on firm ground.

Now the shoe is on the other foot.

It is now up to the believer to prove something - not you!

If someone wants to prove God does exist to this kind of atheist (my kind), he says, "Go ahead and try. No one has to date."

That is atheism based on DOUBT.

4. Your Satanic nature does not come from your atheism.

Your atheism comes from your Satanic nature.

If against all reason and the odds, the Southern Baptists turn out to be right and Jesus Christ returns and we are bathed in blood to our hips ("Peaceful Redeemer, indeed!) then Satanists will still not become meek and obedient Christians.

The ornery nature of being a basic rebel at heart will out.

In such an unlikely scenario a few Satanists would immediately tell God where to go (Hell???) and be made "examples" of.

An unknown number would attempt to "cool it" and play the game to survive.

My strongest hunch is that it really wouldn't work.

You know what I mean.

You would be at the Sunday night Faith and Praise Rally and before you realized it, you'd shout "Hail Jesus!" while giving the Sign of the Horns, or you'd end up praising the people you were supposed to be criticizing in public.

Hell, we would be like the folks in Red China who believed Mao the first time he asked for "suggestions". \:o

My point is that your Satanic nature comes first.

Anything you then learn or decide about the way things are comes second.

Don't pin your Satanism on your atheism.

Pin your atheism on your Satanism!

The first requires faith.

The second requires doubt.

Simple!

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#286485 - 11/28/07 02:22 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
>> The faith is the assumption that because God seems impossible then God is impossible. <<

Nope.

It is not faith. It is the realisation that the God concept was created by man.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#286488 - 11/28/07 02:33 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: Nemo]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
4. Your Satanic nature does not come from your atheism.

This is very true in my experience, for me I just didn't care about religion apart from the fact that I enjoyed hymns at my primary school purely for the singing but hated prayers after class because i just wanted to get home.

While I was young I never even knew there was a word for people who didn't believe in a god of some kind because you either believed in god or didn't where I grew up.

It was only later on in life that i read The Satanic Bible and realized that i wasn't ever really an atheist as i truly wasn't concerned with god not to say that i didn't consider the possibility once or twice.

I always had the attitude that if god was real and would send me to hell just for not having faith in his existence that he was an asshole because I know I am a good person and that was good enough for me so why not him?

Then I read The Satanic Bible and realized that it didn't really matter what he thought about me as i was already damned so i made the conscious choice to make sure he knew it if he exists.
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#286489 - 11/28/07 02:34 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
But god has to be impossible to remove him further and further from that fact.


Edited by shadowraven213 (11/28/07 02:36 PM)
Edit Reason: spelled god wrong
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#286490 - 11/28/07 02:35 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: shadowraven213]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
 Originally Posted By: shadowraven213
But got has to be impossible to remove him further and further from that fact.


Eh?
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#286491 - 11/28/07 02:40 PM Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
>> The faith is the assumption that because God seems impossible then God is impossible. <<

Nope.

It is not faith. It is the realization that the God concept was created by man.


Since we cannot prove this is true, we are assuming it is true.

We do not know.

(I haven't even interviewed that man who supposedly first created the God concept).

That leaves us with what supporting the assumption?

A great deal!

It makes a lot of sense.

It sure seems to fit the bill.

But we still cannot honestly prove it.

As long as we do not pretend to know things we do not really know, we are not guilty of self-deceit and we do not have to be on the defensive to prove things we really can't prove at all.

Practically speaking this is a very useful assumption.

Let's just not allow it to become an article of faith.

We are the accusers, not the defenders.

It is very easy to fall into the role of being a defender on such things.

It is a losing position to assume.

If we fall into having to believe some things are proven true, rather than being useful to assume are true, we end up in the same posture as those theists that are running around claiming they can prove God does exist.

They can't.

But neither can anyone prove the opposite.

The psychological need for absolute certainty is strong.

We cannot allow our minds to be seduced by it.

Doubt and not faith.

That's how I see it.

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#286493 - 11/28/07 02:42 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: Nemo]
Danny Mc. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2143
Loc: Taxationland
 Quote:
My point is that your Satanic nature comes first.


Indeed! This is why I was reprimanded countless times and often whipped maliciously growing up for being a "blasphemous heathen hellion." Ah, but I did learn alot! Silence is golden, and doesn't help to be a protagonist in the theatre of the insane.
_________________________
"To be born into this world a sentient, self-conscious and reasoning being, surrounded by inexhaustible glories in Nature, which we may comprehend, possess,enjoy; to be able to rise on the wings of a lofty imagination; to be able to get glimpses of the ideally perfect; to apprehend the Divine; it is to the development and enjoyment of these high powers that the young man is invited. How dare he refuse to qualify himself by the most perfect training of all his powers." Lyman J. Gage 1910


"Follow Me!", John M. (Delta).

"I've learned that you shouldn't compare yourself to others - they are more screwed up than you think." Something Magistra Isabel posted. laugh

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#286494 - 11/28/07 02:43 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: Nemo]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
(2) The atheist who says, "I can prove God is impossible", can't.

Blame the physicists.

This is atheism based on FAITH.


This type of atheist to me seems to wear atheism as a "good guy badge" just as much as the Christians place their crosses around their necks as a sign of their faith.

As Magus Gilmore states in The Satanic Scriptures, We who embrace Satan as our emblem, don't need no stinkin good guy badges!





Edited by Unknown (11/28/07 02:45 PM)
Edit Reason: Their
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#286497 - 11/28/07 02:49 PM Re: Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
Let's not obfuscate the issue.

Straight question:

Do you think, Magister Nemo, that "God" was created by man or not?
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#286498 - 11/28/07 02:50 PM Re: Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: Nemo]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
Your point as always Magister is very well made.

I strive not to assume anything but its a constant battle I loose sometimes but I like to think I win more than most do, and i certainly know that there are some who don't even bother.
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#286501 - 11/28/07 02:56 PM Staright answer. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
I assume so.

I know that it cannot be proven.

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#286503 - 11/28/07 03:05 PM Re: Straight answer. [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
 Originally Posted By: Nemo
I assume so.

I know that it cannot be proven.


Good.

And, since God is a figment of religions we can assertain through historical fact the creation and evolution of religions and their constricts are the creation of man.

Then we will agree the evidence against God is pretty strong.

The concept exists. I maintain the being does not.

The problem here is that if we begin espousing the possibility that God might exist we are opening up all sorts of doors of misconception about our own tenets and dogma.

In that case we might aswell say we cannot prove Satan does not exist.

As Anton LaVey asserted in regards to this -

"there can be no grey areas"


Edited by Dr_Shaadriq_Aliz (11/28/07 03:11 PM)
Edit Reason: Typin Eros
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#286505 - 11/28/07 03:11 PM Re: "Absolute" proof. [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Almighty Zod

 Originally Posted By: Mr. Obsidian
I am sick of hearing this predictable, parroted line. The sentiment is a sham; a posturing of courage intended to prove...what?

Fair enough. Aside from being a somewhat tired metaphor and poor choice of words, it doesn't even accurately reflect my own sentiments. Rather, I suppose it more accurately reflects the hazards of excessive rhetorical momentum.

If brought before an awesome, physically manifested omnipotent being whose fiery gaze could vaporize the heavens and told to kneel, not only would I kneel, but I would probably cringe, scrape, grovel and offer to shine his shoes.

Heck, it wouldn't even have to be a god. To paraphrase Eddie Izzard, if given a choice between cake or death, I'll choose cake. ;\)

Maybe a better way to put it, though somewhat more generalized and perhaps too dilute, would be:

When confronted by any sort of authority, is your first impulse to question it or embrace it?
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If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286506 - 11/28/07 03:17 PM Re: Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
There is an overwhelming amount of evidence to support this and no evidence that I know of to disprove it but I couldn't definitively prove it but I could give it a really good go.

This question is like asking "Do you think that Bigfoot exists" we see his footprints everywhere but until we actually see it we cant say for sure.

My personal opinion is that your correct in your assumption, there is myriad evidence that god and jesus arose from the study of the stars and planets movements and that most religions (Greek Egyptian Christianity)
personified the sun and used that for their version of Jesus Dionysus and Horus but I have never seen credible evidence that god does exist but i can see the stars and sun move any time i like.
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#286509 - 11/28/07 03:23 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I'm with you on this one.

The evidence against the actual existence of "god" is at least as sound as that against the actual existence of any equally absurd hypothetical being; a twelve-galaxy-tall chocolate rabbit for example. It is fairly safe to say there is no twelve-galaxy-tall chocolate rabbit, even though the idea is easily evoked in the imagination. It is not necessary to "prove" its non-existence because it is devoid of any reasonably coherent meaning to begin with. It is self-refuting before it leaves the gate.

Even in its most abstract terms, as a "prime mover" or ex-nihilo "creator," the concept of "God" is so meaningless and contradictory as to warrant dismissal of any serious consideration.

To concede otherwise, on any level, is INSANE in the strict literal sense of the term INSANE as "Unsound" - conceptually flawed beyond repair.

Contradictions in physics reflect incomplete comprehension of the matter under study, not necessarily properties of the matter itself.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
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MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286510 - 11/28/07 03:23 PM Re: Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: shadowraven213]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
>> I have never seen credible evidence that god does exist but i can see the stars and sun move any time i like. <<

And THAT is a complete and utter Christian frame of reference.

Get out of that mode of thinking.

This "you cannot prove he doesn't exist" has been their get out clause since dot.
_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#286515 - 11/28/07 03:41 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: Nemo]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Part of the breakdown might be that we have different ideas of the place of physics in human knowledge.

I think you think of physics as a direct access to reality. That's certainly how physicists seem to like to think about their own work.

I think of physics as about motion - the factors involved in motion, its measurement, description of parts according to their respective movements, the relationship between one motion and other motions, and the relationship between sensible qualities (color, sound, temperature) and motion.

The empirical methods that physicists use are very effective when we can reduce a problem to a question of parts in motion. Then we can develop tests to see when, where, and how motion actually occurs and how it conditions motion of other bodies.

The success of physics is due to the fact that many, many phenomena of nature are related to movement.

But not all problems are directly related to motion. The nature of numbers or figures is not a problem of this sort. The nature of the economy isn't, either. Ethics is not a problem of this sort.

The existence or non-existence of God is not a problem of this sort. That's why physics can't give a decisive answer. But we don't need to depend on physics to do so. There are other methods in philosophy that give decisive answers. They don't proceed empirically.

One science's methods might have nothing to say about a problem one way or another. Those of other sciences might be able to decide the question, but in a completely different way.

ADDED: Also, I disagree that physics shows us contradictions in physical reality. What it shows us is where the facts of motion and of parts that move contradict our naive, limited everyday knowledge of motion and of parts that move. It nowhere shows us where nature contradicts itself logically, or is logically incoherent.


Edited by reprobate (11/28/07 05:44 PM)
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#286519 - 11/28/07 04:02 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Svengali]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
God Only Knows

 Originally Posted By: Svengali
Even in its most abstract terms, as a "prime mover" or ex-nihilo "creator," the concept of "God" is so meaningless and contradictory as to warrant dismissal of any serious consideration.

I can most certainly agree that concepts of "God" which are clearly and directly contradicted by observed reality warrant dismissal of any serious consideration.

However, not all concepts of "God" directly contradict observed reality. To dismiss them out of hand simply because others do would be a logical fallacy.

The decision to do so, however, is up to the observer to make, as well it should be.

And not all observers perceive the same things.

The Heart Of Matter

 Originally Posted By: Svengali
Contradictions in physics reflect incomplete comprehension of the matter under study, not necessarily properties of the matter itself.

I think that is a very sound position, which also points out the significant limitations of physics with respect to modeling and understanding reality.

Over time, the nature of theoretical physics has become more "mystical" not in spite of, but as a consequence of the measurable outcomes of research and experimentation.

More and more hard evidence is emerging to suggest that the role of the observer with respect to reality is not only relevant, but quite possibly necessary.

Though still unproven, the implications are profound.

With respect to the topic of gods, where the evidence provided by increasingly sophisticated experimentation is leading might well point to what some practitioners of magic have suspected for a very long time.

That which is greater than ourselves may, in fact, be ourselves.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286520 - 11/28/07 04:04 PM Re: Not necessarily courageous defiance! [Re: Nemo]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
A Satanist can potentially handle a human dictatorship by using great street smarts, but - face it! - we are fundamentally smart asses.


Hey, no argument here!


Satanism obviously goes hand-in-hand with questioning authority/consensus.

It seems, however, that all too often the "rebellion" aspect garners the majority of focus, while the equally important application of pragmatic sense and lesser magic are cast aside.

There are countless tales of interpersonal woe posted on these forums, which could have easily been resolved or altogether avoided, had someone not been so quick to prove themselves an opposer and had been quicker to utilize magic or simple decorum.

I'm sure you've noticed this, Magister, as you've made posts highlighting the benefits of both lesser and greater magic, as well as espousing the advantages of technological "leg-ups."


It remains the few who are able to see the picture and the frame.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#286521 - 11/28/07 04:05 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Majic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Majic
However, not all concepts of "God" directly contradict observed reality.


For example?
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286523 - 11/28/07 04:11 PM Re: Straight answer. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
Very well said, UV.

This is an essential part of the Satanic bedrock.

If we start chipping away at its base, the philosophy will eventually fall into the sea of "everything else."



_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#286525 - 11/28/07 04:19 PM Re: Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
I actually didn't say that you couldn't prove he doesn't exist i stated that you could make a good argument against him existing and a very poor almost minuscule by comparison argument that he does exist.

Yet i can stick my head out of the window any time i like and see the stars and observe them moving about which if you read my post you would see is a compelling argument against him existing.

Jesus just like Dionysus and Horus die for 3 days and are resurrected because the sun seems to stop moving at the horizon for exactly 3 days then it starts moving north again "ascending" to the heavens the three wise men are the stars on orion's belt which point directly to the north star on December the 25th this is when they are "born" and the sun starts moving upwards again and its almost the exact same story of all of these "sons of god" or just plain SUN to you and me.

Here is an article that goes into detail about the Egypt connection.
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#286527 - 11/28/07 04:26 PM Re: Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: shadowraven213]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: shadowraven213
I actually didn't say that you couldn't prove he doesn't exist i stated that you could make a good argument against him existing and a very poor almost minuscule by comparison argument that he does exist.


Is that a triple or quadruple negative statement?
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286529 - 11/28/07 04:36 PM Re: Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: Svengali]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
Its two pairs i think.
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#286530 - 11/28/07 04:47 PM Re: Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: shadowraven213]
Taubmann Offline


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 123
Loc: Basque Country
On a logical and systematic discourse the one who must proof something is the one who affirms it, that´s called the onus probandi. The logical principle of the onus probandi is that is easier to proof positive affirmations than negative ones, saying the contrary is a logical fallacy called diabolic proof because it was used by inquisitors in order to force people to confess they were devil worshippers.
So from a atheistic point of view the whole "I can´t proof God doesn´t exist" thing doesn´t have any kind of value, as it doesn´t have a place on a logical discourse. Theistic people are the ones who must give proofs, not us.
_________________________
“People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.”

Kierkegaard

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#286548 - 11/28/07 05:35 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Svengali]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Oh God

 Originally Posted By: Svengali
For example?

The concept that God is "everything without exception" is one example. Another would be that God created the universe but exists outside of it and takes no active role in it. Or that "God" is a concept created by humans to cope with the horrors of conscious mortality and which in turn exerts a fundamental influence on human thought and behavior.

Which all points back to the fact that the question of the existence of God depends on the definition of "God" one uses. And it's not a trivial issue, because not all gods are created equal. ;\)

But as fun and stimulating as all this is, I get the feeling I'm straying too far afield of the subject of this thread, and that it might be a good idea to revisit the topic at hand.

The Head Of A Pin

Magister Nemo has suggested that Satanists not pin their Satanism on their atheism, and has gone to great pains to point out that it is merely a suggestion.

Some Satanists will agree, some won't.

I think it's a good suggestion, but very much respect the fact that any matter of personal belief or conviction is precisely that: a personal matter.

In the context of Satanism, I don't think there is much debate about that.

On the other hand, Magister Nemo has also asserted, and I quote:

 Originally Posted By: Nemo
Therefore any argument that sets out to prove that God (or the Devil or all his little wizards) does not exist is based on FAITH.

That is a more controversial proposition.

Although the fascinating subject of Physics has come up and is part of the discussion, I consider Magister Nemo's assertion to be supported strongly enough by logic.

In the context he has provided, the definition of faith as "belief that is not based on proof" logically applies, and indeed any argument or position which is not substantiated by proof can be accurately said to be founded in faith.

While there is certainly no shortage of ways to split hairs or argue semantics, the assertion itself is reasonable and sound.

God Versus Satan

All that said, and with the explicit and ongoing disclaimer that I speak for no one but myself, I still consider the question of the existence of god or gods irrelevant to Satanism.

It doesn't matter.

You is or you isn't, regardless of gods, humans or even cats.

_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286550 - 11/28/07 05:44 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Majic]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
Cats matter to everything. just ask one ;\)
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#286552 - 11/28/07 05:49 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Majic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Majic

1. The concept that God is "everything without exception" is one example.

2. Another would be that God created the universe but exists outside of it and takes no active role in it.

3. Or that "God" is a concept created by humans to cope with the horrors of conscious mortality and which in turn exerts a fundamental influence on human thought and behavior.


1. Again, that definition is so general as to be completely devoid of meaning.

2. This of course raises the obvious question, what caused God? Even if you concede a “Big Bang” theory of the universe, the leap from that to a conscious sentient creator is a ridiculously huge leap. The argument that God is the ex nihilo creator, that he created everything out of nothing is an absurdity. Nothing can come from nothing. No power can create something from nothing. Power cannot create contradictions, because contradictions cannot exist as anything but verbal statements. For example; no amount of power can create a square circle. To create refers to shaping, making, constructing something from something. To say create implies or means that something is brought into existence from non-existence, not out of any prior raw material, is a meaningless and contradictory assertion. If the universe is "everything" how is "god" outside of it? This is all ridiculous bullshit and word-games.

3. We were discussing the existence of "God" as an actual being, not the subjective phantom of human imagination.

This discussion is descending into another ridiculous waste of energy. I'll bow out now and leave everyone to continue basking in the possibility that "God" doesn't not exist.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286556 - 11/28/07 05:59 PM Moreover.... [Re: reprobate]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
These last objections of mine have to do with matters only incidentally related to Satanism.

We agree where it matters, Magister.
_________________________
reprobate

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#286558 - 11/28/07 06:04 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: Nemo]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
My strongest hunch is that it really wouldn't work.

You know what I mean.

You would be at the Sunday night Faith and Praise Rally and before you realized it, you'd shout "Hail Jesus!" while giving the Sign of the Horns, or you'd end up praising the people you were supposed to be criticizing in public.

Your image reminded me of this mischievous passage from Blake:
 Quote:
Once I saw a Devil in a flame of fire, who arose before an Angel that sat on a cloud, and the Devil utter'd these words:--

`The worship of God is: Honouring his gifts in other men, each according to his genius, and loving the greatest men best: those who envy or calumniate great men hate God; for there is no other God.'

The Angel hearing this became almost blue; but mastering himself he grew yellow, and at last white, pink, and smiling, and then replied:--

`Thou Idolater! is not God One? and is not he visible in Jesus Christ? and has not Jesus Christ given his sanction to the law of ten commandments? and are not all other men fools, sinners, and nothings?'

The Devil answer'd: `Bray a fool in a mortar with wheat, yet shall not his folly be beaten out of him. If Jesus Christ is the greatest man, you ought to love Him in the greatest degree. Now hear how He has given His sanction to the law of ten commandments. Did He not mock at the sabbath, and so mock the sabbath's God; murder those who were murder'd because of Him; turn away the law from the woman taken in adultery; steal the labour of others to support Him; bear false witness when he omitted making a defence before Pilate; covet when he pray'd for his disciples, and when He bid them shake off the dust of their feet against such as refused to lodge them? I tell you, no virtue can exist without breaking these ten commandments. Jesus was all virtue, and acted from impulse, not from rules.'

When he had so spoken, I beheld the Angel, who stretched out his arms, embracing the flame of fire, and he was consumed, and arose as Elijah.

Note.-- This Angel, who is now become a Devil, is my particular friend. We often read the Bible together in its infernal or diabolical sense, which the world shall have if they behave well.

I have also the Bible of Hell, which the world shall have whether they will or no.

Maybe God will turn out to be a Satanist, too! ;\)
_________________________
reprobate

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#286563 - 11/28/07 06:11 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Svengali]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
The Phantom Menace

I said not all concepts of "God" directly contradict observed reality, you asked for an example, and I gave you a few.

That's what that was about. ;\)

As for the notion that this is all ridiculous bullshit and word-games, that is certainly true if the terms aren't well-defined.

The problem with "God" is that even in the most rigid and dogmatic of religions, "God" is a very slippery character whose copious and often self-contradictory names, titles and definitions are subject to radical and irrational changes without warning.

And who knows? Maybe that is all "God" really is.

Or maybe "God" is just a name for a powerful natural force which others know as "Satan".
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286568 - 11/28/07 06:39 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Majic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Majic

I said not all concepts of "God" directly contradict observed reality, you asked for an example, and I gave you a few.


I asked for examples that did not contradict observed reality. You provided examples, but not anything that fit the criteria.

If you don't know the difference I may as well talk to a lamp post.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286580 - 11/28/07 07:10 PM No gray areas. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Thanks for correcting my subject line.

"Straight" answers are certainly better than "staraight" answers! ;\)

 Quote:
The problem here is that if we begin espousing the possibility that God might exist we are opening up all sorts of doors of misconception about our own tenets and dogma.


This concern is exactly why I started this thread.

There are no gray areas.

There are unknown areas.

What is ultimately "impossible" is unknown.

Satanism is based on doubt, not a pretense to omniscient certainty.

Yet I see this pretense pop up regularly here.

Over and over I'd see someone come here and say, "Now that I have proven to myself that there is no God..."

Well, this is frankly something that cannot be proven as yet.

Pragmatic atheism is a very reasonable supposition that seems to fit the bill and is very reliable in my experience.

That is a perspective that Satanists come to accept over and over.

Provable atheism remains a pipe dream.

Until physics can (hopefully) resolve our understanding of how there can be apparent contradictions in the nature of reality, we simply cannot disprove the existence of God.

I know. I don't like this fact either. It's messy.

All the reasons why there cannot be contradictory qualities (and definitions of God are internally contradictory for sure!) to prove God cannot be, are invalidated since physics does find apparent contradictions in reality!

In order to ignore this, you have to ignore reality!

That is certainly not sane nor Satanic.

You see, I see this need to defend "certainty atheism" as a total cop out.

To be "anti-theistic", as I recall Anton LaVey put it, does not require that you must first prove the impossible!

To be anti-theistic is to be what you are - someone who would have Satanic qualities whether there were no God or a whole pack of 'em.

We are not in disagreement over anything here except the issue of whether or not it can be proven that God can't exist.

I am saying two things:

(1) Physics says we can't.
(2) It doesn't matter that we can't.

Satanism comes out of what you are.

What you learn and study and apply are the icing, not the cake.

Now I know that what you are talking about here is defending the gates against sneaky theists that would slip in and try to undermine Satanism.

It is this concern that I am addressing!!!

As long as someone feels they must be able to first prove that God doesn't exist in order to be a Satanist, that person is in big trouble.

Why?

Because they are trying to do something that science says we can't do yet.

Maybe never!

So anyone who pins his Satanism on his atheism (instead of the other way around) is:

(1) Defying what science tells is is true about reality.
(2) Pretending to absolute certainty rather than doubt.

Does God exist?

I doubt it.

Do I believe God exists?

I doubt it.

Can I prove that God does not exist?

No. We do not have the tools for doing so. Maybe someday.

Do I, in practical and pragmatic terms, assume that God does not exist?

Of course. You'd have to be pretty stupid to assume that he does without any evidence for that!

Can a Satanist know absolutely with 100% certainty that there is no God?

Nope. Physics ruled out all the classical arguments in that arena over a century ago.

Mankind does not yet possess a sufficient understanding of reality such that contradictions that are currently observed in reality can be explained without contradiction!

That's where things stand with science in the year 2007.

Does it matter to a Satanist whether or not God exists?

Not at all.

We would act exactly the same way in either case.

This is the bedrock of Satanism - your Satanic nature.

Your assumptions about what is true or false in the world - God, pixies and Oompah-Loompahs - do not make you a Satanist.

Your assumptions about reality result from your being honest about what you do know and what you don't know.

"Impossible" things exist in reality according to physics.

Therefore what we think is "impossible" can be wrong.

Therefore we do not know what things are actually impossible.

So as unlikely as it seems, as crazy as it sounds, to be truly honest we cannot prove that that old bundle of crazy contradictions called "God" cannot exist.

I don't have to like it.

I do have to admit it.

No.

There are no gray areas here at all.

There is only strict honesty about what we do and do not know, and the recognition that you are born the way you are.

You are born a Satanist.

You are not born an atheist.

One is bedrock, the essence , the "cake". The other is the icing.

The real danger to Satanism would be if we start down the road of saying, "I don't care what science says, I know that God is impossible."

Sorry, but that is identical to the theist who says, "I don't care what science says, I know that God exists."

The Satanist says, "Prove it!"

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#286582 - 11/28/07 07:17 PM Re: Yes. It is faith not doubt. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
This "you cannot prove he doesn't exist" has been their get out clause since dot.

And it's also a false statement.

You can prove that an omnipotent being that preceded the creation of the universe does not exist by the simple assertion that complex things do not precede simple things.

If you're willing to cede the possibility that god even exists, then you might as well cede the fact that it is literally impossible to know anything and therefore you have no reason to make any statement whatsoever since it is inevitably a false statement (and thus god is also impossible to know of). Which, amusingly enough, creates a logical fallacy.

I must agree with the good Reverend that it is a disservice to Satanism to even admit the possibility that any god could be remotely within the realm of possibility. We've spent 40 years sticking to a defensible atheistic stance, and it does not deserve to be squandered on a petty point of apathy to obvious reality.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#286583 - 11/28/07 07:17 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Svengali]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
None of your criticisms established that any of the three examples I gave contradicts observed reality.

The matter of lamp posts, on the other hand, is somewhat more subjective.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286585 - 11/28/07 07:24 PM Re: Moreover.... [Re: reprobate]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Ethics are where the Satanic rubber meets the road.

To quote Gomez, "We're Addamses!"

----------------------------------------------------------------
And it is precisely because we can't avoid the evidence of contradictions found in reality by physicsts that we cannot rule out the largest historical bundle of contradictions anywhere: God.

As I keep hoping, maybe later.

In any case, we're Addamses! ;\)

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#286586 - 11/28/07 07:27 PM Re: Real science is wonderful. [Re: Nemo]
Fala Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 264
Science is wonderful.

All I knew as a child is that I had never seen a talking snake, as in the Garden of Eden story. And I didn't believe that we should exclude an animal from being food on the basis of religion. And that there are no past lives.

None of the others made sense. None of it felt right.

For the first time in my life, I felt complete after reading The Satanic Bible.

That's all I needed to know.

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#286588 - 11/28/07 07:37 PM Jung on Atheism [Re: Nemo]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
From Man and His Symbols(p. 75,76) :

 Quote:

Because we cannot discover God's throne in the sky with a radiotelescope or establish (for certain) that a beloved father or mother is still about in a more or less corporeal form, people assume that such ideas are "not true." I would rather say that they are not "true" enough, for these are conceptions of a kind that have accompanied human life from prehistoric times, and that still break through into consciousness at any provocation.
Modern man may assert that he can dispense with them, and he may bolster his opinion by insisting that there is no scientific evidence of their truth. Or he may even regret the loss of his convictions. But since we are dealing with invisible and unknowable things (for God is beyond human understanding, and there is no means of proving immortality), why should we bother about evidence? Even if we did not know by reason our need for salt in our food, we should nonetheless profit from its use. We might argue that the use of salt is a mere illusion of taste or a superstition; but it would still contribute to our well-being. Why, then, should we deprive ourselves of views that would prove helpful in crises and would give meaning to our existence?
And how do we know that such ideas are not true? Many people would agree with me if I stated flatly that such ideas are probably illusions. What they fail to realize is that the denial is as impossible to "prove" as the assertion of religious belief. We are entirely free to choose which point of view we take; it will in any case be an arbitrary decision.
There is, however, a strong empirical reason why we should cultivate thoughts that can never be proved. It is that they are known to be useful. Man positively needs general ideas and convictions that will give a meaning to his life and enable him to find a place for himself in the universe. He can stand the most incredible hardships when he is convinced that they make sense; he is crushed when, on top of all his misfortunes, he has to admit that he is taking part in a "tale told by an idiot."



I think this position of Jung's can prove very useful to the Satanist. The belief or evidence of a deity is not necessary, but the archetype, the concept, is beneficial, particularly in ritual. The weight of Jung's assertion is also important to recognize when interacting with others who are NOT Satanists. I have discovered this for myself from years of friendly debate with religious family members and acquaintances. There is little use in trying to crush the spirit or inspirational source of someone you desire to win over or gain rapport with.

Therefore, I am anti-theistic insofar as such opposition proves relevant and productive. Keeping the religious beast "tamed" is relevant to me. However, just as I do not feel compelled to proselytize others to my viewpoint, I also see a necessary limit in waging war, so to speak, with organized religion.

Pragmatism remains my measuring stick for most all of life's situations.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#286591 - 11/28/07 07:52 PM Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
This "you cannot prove he doesn't exist" has been their get out clause since dot.

And it's also a false statement.


If you can scientifically prove that God does not exist, please do so!

Nothing would make me happier!

Seriously!

You will also win the Nobel Prize in physics, hands down!

In the meantime I shall have to side with the physicists on this one.

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#286600 - 11/28/07 08:48 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Nemo]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
So a few physicists claiming that a deity is possible means it really is so?

As I have already explained, it is disproven to any measure except a statement of total agnosticism about everything. In short, if you know anything at all, you can know God is not real.

God can be disproven as a logical possibility. If you want to argue that maybe logic isn't real either, then it's impossible to speak to you since random bullshit should carry equal meaning as "logical" speech.

Keep in mind I am referring to an omnipotent being, not some theoretical hyper-evolved being that still came about as a product of normal causes taken to an extreme. Dawkins himself concedes that such a being is entirely possible to exist in the universe though it would naturally not be omnipotent (omnipotence itself is a logical fallacy).

Nor do I think it would win a Nobel Prize, since I didn't come up with the idea and it doesn't fall into the realm of any science. Proving that there is no teapot orbiting Mars and no Flying Spaghetti Monster or 12 galaxy tall chocolate rabbit aren't scientific achievements.

Besides the fact that I can only wonder how someone could hold on to the empty philosophy of "You can't know anything!" that would be required to accept such a statement that God is a possibility, I retain my stance that the last thing Satanism needs is to be viewed as lending even vague credence to such foolery. Why not just say, "There could be a real Satan!" The same logic you use says there could be, but it's the last damn thing we need, to be making such statements.

In the meantime I shall have to side with the physicists on this one.

How come you never side with the biologists, like Dawkins, who say the idea is a joke?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#286603 - 11/28/07 08:59 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Nemo]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
I think it's strange that subjects like immortality and magic seem "definitely true" to some and yet God is still in the "doubt it" sector.

I mean, you either agree with logic or you don't…

If you agree with logic (and therefore with the scientific method as well)- you'd have to doubt higher magic [as something metaphysical, and not just psychological], and seriously, highly, extremely doubt the existence of any kind of immortal being.
Yes, there are no scientific means to prove the impossible, but if you come from a logical standpoint (meaning, you "believe" [so to speak] in logic) then you must also "believe" that anything that completely contradicts logic must be false.
If it's not false, then nothing can possibly be truly real from a human standpoint.

Why would one even bother leaving room for the possibility of something so logically-incorrect?
If the answer is "for the sake of being logically correct" then- well, that's kind of a contradiction, don't you think?
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#286604 - 11/28/07 09:06 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
A Fallible God

 Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
Besides the fact that I can only wonder how someone could hold on to the empty philosophy of "You can't know anything!" that would be required to accept such a statement that God is a possibility, I retain my stance that the last thing Satanism needs is to be viewed as lending even vague credence to such foolery.

Allowing for the possible existence of "God" (whatever that may be) does not require adhering to a philosophy of "You can't know anything!"

A more accurate characterization would be "You don't know what you don't know!"

Solipsism, self-deceit and counterproductive pride are not virtues, and I cannot see how unsupported claims regarding "God" -- pro or con -- would benefit a Satanist.

If "Satanism" requires professing something I do not believe to be true, then I am not a "Satanist".

As it happens, I am satisfied that true Satanism requires nothing of the sort.

My tuppence, your mileage may vary.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286607 - 11/28/07 09:13 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
As you can logically assert that an omnipotent deity is an impossibility in a universe where logic is applicable, it certainly does.

The fact that you just haven't thought this through and are really stubborn doesn't make your point of view correct by shouting over and over, "You never know!"

If it can be logically possible, then explain just one logical possible origin of a god. Something without origin is illogical. If you cannot even imagine such a possibility, then you're just running your mouth to say that it is possible.

It's worth noting that asserting the possibility of a god is unique in its implications, unlike such a relatively mundane assertion of uncertainty of bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster that would only imply some logically possible creature that we haven't seen. God is not a logically possible being to begin with, so asserting his possible reality already puts you way into the bullshit zone, just like asserting the possible reality of Santa Claus hopping down every chimney in one night.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#286613 - 11/28/07 09:44 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
The Logic Of Origins

 Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
If it can be logically possible, then explain just one logical possible origin of a god. Something without origin is illogical. If you cannot even imagine such a possibility, then you're just running your mouth to say that it is possible.

Actually, I've provided several examples already in this thread. But I've also pointed out that I think the question is moot for Satanists, and repeatedly explained why.

I agree with Magister Nemo that Satanism shouldn't be pinned on Atheism. It is a weak foundation for such a strong religion.

The question of "God" or "no God" should not and does not define who I am.

I will be who I will be regardless.

And I am one who has learned the hard way that it is unwise to assume I know that which I do not.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286615 - 11/28/07 09:52 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
It is a weak foundation for such a strong religion.

Yet it is the foundation of the religion. Anton LaVey himself asserted that there is no God, in no uncertain terms. Maybe you're in the wrong place if atheism strikes such a sour note for you.

And I am one who has learned the hard way that it is unwise to assume I know that which I do not.

Do you know anything? If not, why presume to argue with someone who does?
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

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#286617 - 11/28/07 10:11 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Shaky Foundations

 Originally Posted By: LeviathanXIII
Yet it is the foundation of the religion. Anton LaVey himself asserted that there is no God, in no uncertain terms. Maybe you're in the wrong place if atheism strikes such a sour note for you.

"It is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of 'God', as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best." -- Anton S. LaVey, The Satanic Bible

Which of you is right?
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286618 - 11/28/07 10:12 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Majic

Actually, I've provided several examples already in this thread.


You have provided nothing of the sort.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286619 - 11/28/07 10:13 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Nemo]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
edit: disregard that, I'm tired.


Edited by tovasshi (11/28/07 10:39 PM)
_________________________
Hi.

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#286621 - 11/28/07 10:17 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Majic

"It is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of 'God', as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best." -- Anton S. LaVey, The Satanic Bible

Which of you is right?


Not you.

Keep reading.

Finish reading that chapter, and the next.

Dr. LaVey writes, “IT is a popular misconception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of "God", as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best. Man has always created his gods, rather than his gods creating him. God is, to some, benign - to others, terrifying. To the Satanist "God" - by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all - is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live.” This is the passage I’ve seen people misinterpret as a call to some Crom-like Deism.

This “deistic” error is remedied by reading on to the next chapter where Dr. LaVey continues, “ALL religions of a spiritual nature are inventions of man. He has created an entire system of gods with nothing more than his carnal brain. Just because he has an ego, and cannot accept it, he has to externalize it into some great spiritual device which he calls ‘God.’” Clearly defining ALL religions as human invention.

Dr. LaVey continues, “If man needs such a god and recognizes that god, then he is worshipping an entity that a human being invented. Therefore, HE IS WORSHIPPING BY PROXY THE MAN THAT INVENTED GOD. Is it not more sensible to worship a god that he, himself, has created, in accordance with his own emotional needs – one that best represents the very carnal and physical being that has the idea-power to invent a god in the first place? If man insists on externalizing his true self in the form of "God", then why fear his true self, in fearing ‘God’, - why praise his true self in praising ‘God’, - why remain externalized from ‘God’ IN ORDER TO ENGAGE IN RITUAL AND RELIGIOUS CEREMONY IN HIS NAME?” Here we clearly see “God” reduced to the imaginary invention of a mundane, carnal, human being.

Dr. LaVey takes it even one step further, “Man needs ritual and dogma, but no law states that an externalized god is necessary in order to engage in ritual and ceremony performed in a god's name! Could it be that when he closes the gap between himself and his ‘God’ he sees the demon of pride creeping forth - that very embodiment of Lucifer appearing in his midst? He no longer can view himself in two parts, the carnal and the spiritual, but sees them merge as one, and then to his abysmal horror, discovers that they are only the carnal - AND ALWAYS WERE!” Here we have not only “God” but the “spiritual” itself reduced to the carnal.

This is an important point of Satanism, too frequently missed or avoided by those who have not shed their attachment to transcendental fantasies. Satanism is materialistic not only in the commonsense use of the term, but in the philosophical sense of the term.

You can disagree with materialism and/or atheism all you want, but to argue that Satanism is not a materialistic and atheistic philosophy is completely in contradiction with the philosophy as laid out by Dr. LaVey - that I happen to completely agree with on ALL of these counts.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286622 - 11/28/07 10:19 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
Do you know anything? If not, why presume to argue with someone who does?


Exactly.

Such is the inherent flaw in Sophist-style "logic."
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#286623 - 11/28/07 10:30 PM Re: Staright answer. [Re: Svengali]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
 Quote:
This of course raises the obvious question, what caused God? Even if you concede a “Big Bang” theory of the universe, the leap from that to a conscious sentient creator is a ridiculously huge leap. The argument that God is the ex nihilo creator, that he created everything out of nothing is an absurdity. Nothing can come from nothing. No power can create something from nothing. Power cannot create contradictions, because contradictions cannot exist as anything but verbal statements. For example; no amount of power can create a square circle. To create refers to shaping, making, constructing something from something. To say create implies or means that something is brought into existence from non-existence, not out of any prior raw material, is a meaningless and contradictory assertion. If the universe is "everything" how is "god" outside of it? This is all ridiculous bullshit and word-games.


Exactly.

Nothing from nothing violates the laws of physics, plain and simple.

It is an affront to reason.

To suggest otherwise would definitely indicate some scrambling ad hoc patchwork to any argument and couldn't be anything other than an a priori one at that.

And well, there's no practical or reasonable reason to give an argument like that the time of day.

To argue in the defense of God's existence is the equivalent of arguing for the existence of Bertrand Russel's Flying Teapot.

And well, that's just stupid.

Science is not in the business of giving equal voice to every cockamamie idea on the market.

God the Omnipotent one is inherently ridiculous before the word go.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#286624 - 11/28/07 10:35 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: reprobate]
Drimlybunk Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 928
Loc: California
 Quote:
Maybe God will turn out to be a Satanist, too!


I had some friends write a paper on that, actually. They had a surprising amount of biblical evidence to support their claim that the Christian God behaves very Satanically. They did not, however, know that they were finding Satanic qualities. They only pointed out qualities that (to my privy eyes) are Satanic.

Might not be practical in any way... but it sure was amusing.
_________________________
'We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!' -- Col. Kurtz (Apocalypse Now)

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#286625 - 11/28/07 10:50 PM Re: No gray areas. [Re: Nemo]
Poetaster Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
With all due respect, Magister, in order to entertain the notion that God might exist by resting your argument on the strange world of physics, have you considered that in order for something to be considered by physicists, it first has to be in physics?

The general consensus is that God is Omnipotent, thus eternal, begging the "nothing from nothing" clause.

But if that were the case, then the forces of physics didn't even exist.

Seems reasonable to suggest that the whole idea is just bunk and illustrates the less than impressive knowledge possessed - as we would judge it by today's scientific standards, of course - by the dessert dwelling storytellers who invented the whole charade.
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person’s faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#286626 - 11/28/07 11:02 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Svengali]
Hagen von Tronje Offline

CoS Priest

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 10121
Thank you!

I would further add that in my study of Satanism, it would certainly appear to me that Dr. LaVey did not simply build up his philosophy on such soft ground as "We do things this way and live by these standards" because he just thought they sounded good. He was far more sophisticated that to arbitrarily assign values.

The very first thing he did in The Satanic Bible was to thoroughly expound upon why God, spiritualism, religion, and every single article of faith, belief, or wish-it-were-true is utter bullshit and counter to the interests of a rational man. Only once he established this did he follow with the philosophy and dogma of Satanism, which required the atheistic, materialistic foundation to be a rational religion in the first place.

Trying to build Satanism on anything but a purely atheistic, materialistic foundation is going to find you making wrongheaded assertions - and belies a failure to understand the religion and duly credit LaVey with creating a fully coherent philosophy.
_________________________
"The devil I'll bring you," answered Hagen. "I have enough to carry with my shield and breastplate; my helm is bright, the sword is in my hand, therefore I bring you naught."

Top
#286632 - 11/28/07 11:19 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Dr. LaVey was careful not to make any unwarranted assertions - especially regarding magic.

He referred to Satanism as a fusion of Logic and Magic.

The Satanic stance of atheism and materialism is not in contradiction with the Satanic understanding of magic - which avoids as many unwarranted hypotheses as possible, and does a good job of it. Just because something is not explained does not mean it isn't real, or useful. It also doesn't mean that it is the work of "spiritual forces" outside the spectrum of material phenomenon just because the guy in the lab coat hasn't wrapped his mind around it yet.

But it is counterproductive to discuss any of this in depth in the dim-witted cesspool of the public forums - it will quickly degenerate into idiotic posturing and fairy tale bullshit.

I will say this though; Jung has more genuine insight about it than Chopra, Capra, and their ilk, lost in the forests of parallel metaphors.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286633 - 11/28/07 11:30 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Contrary to accusations that he had "Theistic" leanings, Jung is explicit throughout the collected works that when he refers to "God" it is as a psychological fact, not an objective ontological/existential fact - just a strong facet, or archetype, in some people's mental furniture.

People's God fantasies have to be ignored in some situations just to maintain interpersonal rapport or to get things done, but overall, publicly and impersonally it should be shot down whenever possible. That is why I still think the current pop trend toward atheism is a desirable thing, from a Satanic perspective, in eroding some of the influence of religion over people - even if the atheists for the most part are still bland "humanists" of a quasi-christian ethical bent, at least they are not as inclined to take directions from invisible friends - or prone to be complete fanatics as the religious wackos are.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286634 - 11/28/07 11:31 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Hagen von Tronje]
de_Lioncourt Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 525
After reading through some of these posts I will add my two cents.

In my opinion this discussion boils down to two questions:

1). If a God existed would you still be the person you are today?

2). If The Satanic Bible was never written would you still be the same person you are today?

I am myself first and foremost. If it could be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was a God, it would not alter who I am. I would still be the same.

Likewise, if the Satanic Bible never existed, I would still be the same person and think the same way. Like most, I found myself reflected in it's words.

Having said that I am glad that Dr. Lavey put the philosophy together and gave it such a fun name.

In my mind being yourself and being completely comfortable with yourself (without needing validation from anyone else) is the very essence of being a Satanist. When you live your life on those terms you accept whatever is true for you. It makes debate on subjects that would have no effect on your life seem pointless.

Hail Satan!!
_________________________
There is only the mind.

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#286638 - 11/28/07 11:57 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Svengali]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
Spirits In A Material World

 Originally Posted By: Svengali
You can disagree with materialism and/or atheism all you want, but to argue that Satanism is not a materialistic and atheistic philosophy is completely in contradiction with the philosophy as laid out by Dr. LaVey - that I happen to completely agree with on ALL of these counts.

I'm not suggesting that Satanism isn't materialistic. If anything, I consider materialism to be its foundation, and that such a foundation is indeed quite sound.

I also find Satanism to be refreshingly honest. In fact, I am unaware of any religion more candid than Satanism -- and this despite the accusations of guile for which it is so commonly maligned.

Where I take exception -- and this is based entirely on my authority as me and nothing else -- is when any assertion is made that Satanism requires me to believe anything I do not believe.

That is unacceptable. I won't do it.

And I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else has to say about it.

Ironically enough, despite the fact that I scrupulously leave the door open to my own fallibility, I don't believe in what is commonly understood to be "God" or what might otherwise be reasonably considered superstitious nonsense.

But I also don't presume to know the nature of the universe or what may lie beyond it, nor do I have any truck with those who claim to. Nor will I discount what I have personally witnessed regarding the ways of magic.

And I sure as all fuck will never authorize anyone else to say as much on my behalf.

I've spent too many years of my life wrestling with such specious bullshit to ever adopt it again, whether under the auspices of a pastor, a bishop, a high priest or a magister.

The only honest answer I can give to the question of "God" is I don't know.

If you think you do know, then I don't believe you.

If that's a problem here, then I am indeed in the wrong place.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286641 - 11/29/07 12:14 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Majic
Where I take exception -- and this is based entirely on my authority as me and nothing else -- is when any assertion is made that Satanism requires me to believe anything I do not believe.

That is unacceptable. I won't do it.

.....And I sure as all fuck will never authorize anyone else to say as much on my behalf.


Who wants you to? I certainly don't care what you believe one way or another. So far all you are to me is another one of the thousands of clueless anonymous people who blow through here on a routine basis.

You are tilting at windmills of your own creation. No one here cares whether you agree or not, and I'm sure no one WANTS to speak on your behalf. Why would they?

You probably are in the wrong place, not because anyone wants you to believe something you don't, but because you are too dim to comprehend basic things that have been spelled out. You have not demonstrated that you have followed or comprehended any part of this discussion beyond echoing your own assertions that you "don't know" whether or not something that is obviously absurd to anyone with an IQ over their shoe size is such.

You are in the wrong place if you disagree with fundamental points of the philosophy - none of which are obscure, arbitrary, or unwarranted.

I expect even though I have expressed myself clearly in THIS post that you STILL won't get it.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286644 - 11/29/07 12:24 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Majic
The only honest answer I can give to the question of "God" is I don't know.

If you think you do know, then I don't believe you.



Congratulations. You missed the boat completely.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286645 - 11/29/07 12:32 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Svengali]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
 Originally Posted By: Svengali
Congratulations. You missed the boat completely.

I'm satisfied with the seaworthiness of my own boat.

Fair winds and following seas, mate.
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286646 - 11/29/07 12:35 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Svengali]
Mr. Obsidian Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 3120
Loc: Ohio
 Quote:
People's God fantasies have to be ignored in some situations just to maintain interpersonal rapport or to get things done, but overall, publicly and impersonally it should be shot down whenever possible.


That's precisely the way I see it.

I just don't waste my time getting involved in squabbles or conflict over it, if that can be helped.

I view a hypothetical atheistic world as a spiritual pipe dream, akin to any other "utopian" fantasy. The atheistic movement is fine, but I wouldn't waste my time touring the world circuit and arguing with fanatical fools. The majority of people will always be weak, vacuous shells, seeking fulfillment from something outside of their pathetic selves.
_________________________
~ Mr. Obsidian (JP)

Olio/Etcetera

Flesh and Bones
_______________

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
~ Charles Bukowski


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#286649 - 11/29/07 12:54 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: de_Lioncourt]
StellaMaris Offline


Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 27
This had been quite an interesting discussion and I do think Nemo has made and clarified his point well-which can be boiled down simply to the distinction between provable and pragmatic atheism.

Much of the basis for disagreement here does seem to be based in semantics. In light of this, I've struggled with deciding on the proper label for my own point of view. I do fit the description of pragmatic atheist, and will use the label depending on context(like in the company of people who see the subtle difference between being without an external god and asserting absolute certainty about the matter). But in many contexts, using the label gives the impression of being a dogmatic, unquestioning type, which I don't find useful, so I often stick with "agnostic".

I actually think good arguments have been made on both sides for whether a Satanist is better served by a doubting, questioning stance(in which one can still strongly oppose or reject conventional ideas of an external god), or by a more definite refusal to consider the possibility. It seems both approaches could be supported by LaVey's own words, and I don't think this discrepancy will be resolved-it comes down to a matter of personal preference. I would think that there has to be some room for this, as complete uniformity in interpretation among individuals seems impossible, so long as the general conclusion is the same(we do not acknowledge an external god as a logical or pragmatic reality).

I also wanted to add that while most conventional definitions of a God seem ridiculous or logically impossible to the extent of not warranting consideration, such as the Christian God who constantly contradicts himself, the idea of a Creator who was something before there was something, etc...(won't rehash all the valid critiques that have been made), there are perhaps other definitions of God which may not seem so improbable, impossible, easy to rule out. One might be that God is universal energy which has no conceivable starting or ending point...or that God is consciousness, a unified point which by nature reflects on/becomes aware of itself and therefore divides into a myriad of potentialities manifested in matter as we know it...or that God is a higher order that could simply be described as the laws of physics, which are constantly being revealed.

I won't continue to ramble along this line of thought, I'm just saying that there are possible definitions which would be completely compatible with what we can observe in nature and understand through science. I don't have a compelling motive to prove that such things are or aren't real and valid...my salvation doesn't depend on knowing, and I don't think answering that question will have a significant impact on my experience in the here and now. It's more an interesting topic to ponder, and doing so can be gratifying in that it brings a sense of expanded perspective and wonder. But for all intents and purposes, I'm still a pragmatic atheist.

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#286653 - 11/29/07 01:42 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Mr. Obsidian]
Majic Offline


Registered: 04/05/06
Posts: 234
Loc: Sagittarius III
 Originally Posted By: Mr. Obsidian
I just don't waste my time getting involved in squabbles or conflict over it, if that can be helped.

Your wisdom is commendable and a model to be aspired to. ;\)
_________________________
If you expect humanity to disappoint you, you'll never be disappointed.

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#286655 - 11/29/07 02:33 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
I've always preferred terms like "Autotheist" and "Ignostic" to "Atheist." Or Magus Gilmore's "I-Theist" which is free of the Gnostic garbage "Autotheist" has picked up.

I agree with Magus LaVey's assertion in the Satanic Bible. God, if such a thing exists, is more likely a force of nature than a being. Conceptions of God are inventions of man.

I'm technically an Atheist in that I don't accept that some Omnipotent Being exists, controlling the universe. I don't see any evidence of it. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Not necessarily. But so far, personally, my life would be a whole hell of a lot crappier if I tried to live it while believing in some Omnipotent and Sentient Being.

Do I care if God exists? No. Hence the term "Ignostic." Not caring. It doesn't change who I am. Even if it was proved beyond a doubt that God existed and I decided to worship said being, I'd only be taking the pragmatic road in an attempt to insure eternal life.

Do I think God exists? No. Is it possible that he does? Sure, but I'm not going to change my ways or even bother over it unless there's real scientific indication that God exists.

I don't remember who mentioned Occam's Razor, but it applies. God isn't necessary to explain the world, why it exists. So why bother believing in it? Whats the point? Does that change the reality around us? Life is still a struggle, a jungle, no matter how it was made.

So what does that leave? Why, that man created all the gods. They are symbols, personifications of human characteristics. So everybody is in essence, their own God, until they give their Godhood up to symbols. Externalizations. I'll keep it, thank you. Hence "I-Theist."

Can God exist? Possibly. It hasn't been disproved. It can't be, yet. Does it matter? No. God is irrelevant. I am who I am.
_________________________
"It's pretty fun, doing the impossible." -Walt Disney

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#286656 - 11/29/07 02:37 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Nemo]
Drake_Bamboozle Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 10564
Loc: England
>> If you can scientifically prove that God does not exist, please do so! <<

So let's get this straight.

What you are saying, Magister Nemo, is:

I accept the possibility that God might exist because it cannot be proved that he does not.

So, for me, the possibilty is there.

God might exist and the constructs of Christianity might be true - Jesus (the miracle working son of God, born of a virgin) might have walked the earth, been killed on the cross, risen from the dead and ascended up into the clouds in front of witnesses.

And one day he (because I cannot prove he won't) might float back down to earth again and say (in a great booming voice that the whole earth can hear) :

"My name is Jesus Christ. Now listen you fuckers, I am the Lord your God and you sorry pieces of shit better get on your knees right now or I'll click my fingers and set your head on fire. And for good measure send a plague of fucking rats round your mom and dad's house. So on your knees you pieces of shit."

And what you are maintaining, Magister Nemo, is that even if this were to happen you still would not worship him.

All this is working within the Christian frame of reference. You are playing by their modes of thought.

It's not so complicated. The whole construct of these religions is madness. Absolute madness. Ludicrous.

Just because I cannot prove otherwise does not stop me seeing that it is bullshit.

I'll reiterate Dr. LaVey's words in The Satanic Bible:

"ALL Gods are the invention of man."

I can understand using certain terminology in discussions for purposes of diffusion in discussions with non Satanists - but to actually suggest that God might exist is in my view completely off kilter.

I am not interested in scientific proof on this matter. The bullshit is plain to see.

Carry on like this and we're going to be seeing some religious conversions in this thread.


_________________________
"Spiral Out: a bleak, page-turning, unforgettable read. Existentialism at its most hardcore" - www.uvray.moonfruit.com





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#286666 - 11/29/07 05:33 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Taubmann Offline


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 123
Loc: Basque Country
Magister Svengali, people who claim Jung had "theistic leanings" always do it in order to justify their own beliefs, a lot of pseudo occultist spanish cults use to do it for example.

And about Gods being the invention of man, I think we should separate two different facts:

1-Archetypes are not creation of man, but the different aspects of human nature. They are very important as they can serve you to fully understand yourself and humanity.

2-Gods are cultural entities based on archetypes. They represent the views of a local culture on a specific archetype, and so they are created by man. They only matter when they can serve you to understand better the archetype they represent.
_________________________
“People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.”

Kierkegaard

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#286671 - 11/29/07 06:27 AM Turning The Tables [Re: Nemo]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
I am not so much concerned with God. Whether or not there is a God is none of my business, because if there isn't a God, then who cares anyway? And if there is, who am I to question the mind and nature of an omnipotent, omniscent entity? I have difficulties enough understanding myself, for fuck's sake!

Perhaps the Pantheistic Animism view is the most sympathetic, being that existence itself is the nature of God, that the will to exist is the will of God, and that all things that are real, as they are, must be understood as "the word of God".

You need not understand beauty to appreciate it.

I find it more interesting to question WHY people invented this sinister God idea in the first place. What kind of need does this idea meet? It is hard to reach any other conclusion that it is the common, human arrogance of thinking that reality (which is by and large unknown to unknowable on a scale) should comply with our ideas about reality (which are by and large reductionistic to insane on a scale), so that we don't have to feel so much fear.

In other words, God is a symbol which is created to scare away fear.

Kind of twisted, really, but then again, this IS the human race.

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#286672 - 11/29/07 06:37 AM Re: Turning The Tables [Re: Max Faust]
Taubmann Offline


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 123
Loc: Basque Country
The notion of the numinous (or God as you call it) is not only created, developed I would say, to scare away fear but in order to deal with different kinds of alienation and feelings. Being the alienation with nature and feeling there is something GREATER than yourself the main ones.
_________________________
“People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.”

Kierkegaard

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#286676 - 11/29/07 06:52 AM Re: Turning The Tables [Re: Max Faust]
Mr Sam Offline


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Somewhere in the UK.
 Originally Posted By: Max Faust
Perhaps the Pantheistic Animism view is the most sympathetic, being that existence itself is the nature of God, that the will to exist is the will of God, and that all things that are real, as they are, must be understood as "the word of God".


This sounds like a nice notion, but it is entirely meaningless. It is just assigning the name God to things which already have names. All this does is confuse issues in a vague attempt to be sympathetic with God believers.

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#286687 - 11/29/07 07:57 AM Re: Turning The Tables [Re: Taubmann]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Taubmann
Magister Svengali, people who claim Jung had "theistic leanings" always do it in order to justify their own beliefs, a lot of pseudo occultist spanish cults use to do it for example.

And about Gods being the invention of man, I think we should separate two different facts:

1-Archetypes are not creation of man, but the different aspects of human nature. They are very important as they can serve you to fully understand yourself and humanity.

2-Gods are cultural entities based on archetypes. They represent the views of a local culture on a specific archetype, and so they are created by man. They only matter when they can serve you to understand better the archetype they represent.



I agree. But they all stem from human nature - hardwiring and/or cultural embellishment.

The "Gods" or "God" do not exist "out there" - they are the product of human imagination (either projected or encountered in introverted mental states) in turn based in the carnal evolution of the human brain and nervous system.

To say "god" might exist is actually more nonsensical than saying a 12 galaxy tall chocolate rabbit might exist because a "12 galaxy tall chocolate rabbit" is actually a more coherent description with specific meaning than "god" which has been used and stretched to the point that it has NO meaning whatsoever.

Once you say any term such as "god" can mean ANYTHING you want it to, it is rendered MEANINGLESS and devoid of any referential content outside of the personal whim of whoever is using it.

Even the best most abstract attempts to frame a coherent definition of god or argument for its existence are circular, begging the question, and pre-assume what they profess to "prove."

It is safe to say "god" doesn't exist because it is a meaningless or self-refuting concept AT BEST.

Again - that some here can't follow this is not the shortcoming of the case, rather of their comprehension - they keep sliding back to "you never know" or "you can't PROVE its not..." etc.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO "PROVE" IT - IT IS SELF-REFUTING NONSENSE INCAPABLE OF PROOF BECAUSE IT IS DEVOID OF MEANING TO BEGIN WITH.

Water seeks its own level.

If religious people were capable of REASONING they would not BELIEVE their nonsense to begin with. They are not capable.

If so-called "agnostics" who want to say "you never know" were capable of comprehending that the premise is LOGICALLY flawed and self-refuting in the first place, that there is NOTHING to prove or disprove, they wouldn't waffle around wondering if the absurd might still be hiding out there in the universe somewhere.

The shortcoming is not in the reasons for dismissing the idea - the shortcoming is in the inability of the individual to understand why.

LOGIC or REASON is not a "faith" or some arcane system of brainwashing. Its use is in disciplining thought. Part of it is weeding out patently absurd and self-refuting concepts to begin with.

Most people are addicted to their own sloppy inner dialogue, usually based on sloppy use of language and lack of real reasoning skills. This is why there will always be Religions in the world until someone fulfills James Watson's hope of a genetic cure for stupidity.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286688 - 11/29/07 07:58 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
mighty_honour_kr Offline


Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Scotland, United Kingdom
 Originally Posted By: Dr_Shaadriq_Aliz
I accept the possibility that God might exist because it cannot be proved that he does not.


I understand that it's improbable that the God(s) of modern religion(s) exists, however neither I nor the sciences of our time have the ability to eliminate such a possibility.

I have not the evidence to allow such a theory to affect my decisions, neither do I have the evidence to declare it impossible, to do so would be just as arrogantly presumptuous as the fundamentalists.

Better, or worse?
_________________________
"Because we do not know when we will die, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. And yet everything happens only a certain number of times, and a very small number really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, an afternoon that is so deeply a part of your being that you cannot conceive of your life without it? Perhaps four, or five times more? Perhaps not even that. How many more times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless..."

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#286697 - 11/29/07 08:38 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: mighty_honour_kr]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
I just want to say this thread has turned out to be the best discussion i have seen on these boards since i registered.

I am enjoying nearly every post.

I have also come to the conclusion after some thinking that Magister Nemo's assertion is correct but that still does not mean i believe there is a god and so Svengali is also correct my logic goes like this.

Truth is something that we can prove over and over again even this second, truths are things like fire burns wind blows and suchlike, these are infinitely provable things unless they happen to change.

God is not a truth and therefore does not exist, but i acknowledge the possibility that he might even if he does not but i don't just believe it and therefore don't care about it.

“Belief means not wanting to know what is true”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

This is in my signature and the guy really was onto something with it lets analyze what he was saying.

If you believe something is true you have already decided if its true or not and therefore wont think as hard to prove or disprove the truth, I as a Satanist want to know something is true BEFORE i allow myself to believe it and that is the fundamental difference between my religion and a faith based one, i will always assume something to be untrue by default.

So in closing unless the guy in the sky knocks on my door one morning and invites me to lunch he does not exist I have proven it to myself and thats good enough for me but i acknowledge that he may be just caught in traffic.
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#286713 - 11/29/07 10:13 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Svengali]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
That is why I still think the current pop trend toward atheism is a desirable thing, from a Satanic perspective, in eroding some of the influence of religion over people


The issue with this is that people will always allow the influence of religion over their lives. "The need to believe" has been wired into the populations nature for centuries and to fight against this is but a pipe dream.

I do agree with you however that the pop trend of atheism erodes SOME of the religious influence in this world but is it really doing much? Is there really a conversion from this "need to believe" into atheism? It seems to me that this is the very fuel that sparks the fire of Christian madness. Atheism has always been a tool of doubt in my bag but I never felt it was the most important element being a Satanist. It is just one element I use.

 Quote:
even if the atheists for the most part are still bland "humanists" of a quasi-christian ethical bent, at least they are not as inclined to take directions from invisible friends - or prone to be complete fanatics as the religious wackos are.


I agree with you 100% Magister and hopefuly it will never come to the point where atheists are as bent as the Christian whackos. I doubt it would ever come to that anyways.
_________________________









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#286716 - 11/29/07 10:31 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Unknown]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Even if they only succeed in chipping one small brick from the foundations of that idiocy it is better than nothing.

Humans are wackos. They will succeed in turning anything into a premise for deranged behavior.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286721 - 11/29/07 11:03 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Svengali]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
The Satanic stance of atheism and materialism is not in contradiction with the Satanic understanding of magic - which avoids as many unwarranted hypotheses as possible, and does a good job of it. Just because something is not explained does not mean it isn't real, or useful. It also doesn't mean that it is the work of "spiritual forces" outside the spectrum of material phenomenon just because the guy in the lab coat hasn't wrapped his mind around it yet.


I'm wondering if you are referring to my previous post here.
Since I now realize I wrote "metaphysical" instead of "sub-atomic" (which is a serious mistake on my part) I guess that maybe you are.

In any case, I would like to point this out:

Of course it is a lot more logical to presume, based on observations, that there is some kind of non-conscious "balancing force of nature" through which one can employ Higher Magic (in the meaning of "sending emotionally-charged ideas to the subconscious of an absent person via some sort of quantum-physical method" [absolutely materialistic]), than to presume that there is a spooky man in the sky who can tell us what to do [absolutely metaphysical].

The idea in my previous post was to point out that logic would beg to be skeptical of anything not yet proven (like the aforementioned sort of Higher Magic) and to disagree with anything that contradicts logic.

I think it is strange that a person who is SURE of the existence of something yet to be proven (or of something impossible such as immortality), would also be merely skeptical about the existence of something as ludicrous as God.
Because I would expect that if one is wary of making wide logical assertions (such as asserting God does not exist) for LOGIC'S SAKE, he would carry this line of thought through.
But the inconsistence makes me assume that there was no support of logic there in the first place, hence all those statements are based on faith of someone who is agenda-driven.


Right now I know that Higher-Magic works on a psychological level, and am skeptical that it works on some sub-atomic level.
I also know that the idea of God is a bunch of utter bullshit that logic easily refutes.


Edited by The_Lightning (11/29/07 11:20 AM)
_________________________
There is no such thing as evolution - Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

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#286723 - 11/29/07 11:10 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: The_Lightning]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I essentially agree.

Just one thing - there is no reason to assume "the clincher" explanation for greater magic, if one ever comes, will hinge on sub-atomic physical explanations.

Everything has subatomic aspects, and there may be some interesting indicators emerging from that area of study (being careful to avoid confusion from parallel metaphors that are not really referring to the same things), but there is no reason to assume at this point that it will be a predominantly "quantum" type explanation.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286749 - 11/29/07 01:42 PM Re: Humans are wackos. [Re: Svengali]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Humans are wackos. They will succeed in turning anything into a premise for deranged behavior.


I think that is one of the greatest statements I have seen in print in many a year!

Thank you, Magister!

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#286750 - 11/29/07 01:44 PM We are in total agreement. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12521
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Just because I cannot prove otherwise does not stop me seeing that it is bullshit.


That is exactly what I have been saying all along in this overly long thread.

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#286757 - 11/29/07 02:22 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
I am atheist by default. Throughout my whole life whenever I was faced with the question, "Do you believe in god?" I always answered with, "I cannot believe that the universe is controlled by a personality."

Of course I can't prove it. I don't spend much time thinking about it either. Whether there is a god or not doesn't make a lick of difference in my life.

The philosophy of Satanism supports my base character and gives me the tools to exploit my strengths and strengthen my weaknesses. Atheism is somewhere at the bottom of this 'Satanic character.' To me, Satanism and atheism are inseparable. The Satanist is self-aware and self-serving. The deist is self-denying.

The religion of Satanism supports my need to be imaginative and creative. The truly brilliant creators are always working outside the framework and poking around in dark places where uncovered knowledge rests. The religion supports those who venture outside the comfort zone set by the others who dare not step out of line out of fear.

This is how it is built in me.

Atheism -> Satanic Philosophy (Might Is Right) -> Satanic Magic

If Anton LaVey never created this religion, I would still be an atheist. A lesser atheist than I am now, but an atheist still.


Edited by HoundDog (11/29/07 02:23 PM)
Edit Reason: forgot an S
_________________________
SNAP!

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#286768 - 11/29/07 03:11 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: Nemo]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
I always felt that symbolically Jesus and Satan were one and the same (two parts of one whole). They represent two different aspects of human nature. But if you think about it, which of the two do you think paid the most for man's "sins"? I say probably the one who was cursed to crawl on his belly forever in dirt for being more persuasive than God.

I think the whole concept of God and Satan was nothing more than a Freudian slip of the stylus, so to speak. Dr. LaVey explained this eloquently; God is the externalization of the human ego, Satan is the externalization of human nature. Satanism puts the two back together where they belong.

If Jesus came into the picture now, as an actual being, I’d think it was all a trick. Even if he was real, I probably wouldn’t like him. I was once asked “If Jesus came down from Heaven today, what would you say?”

My reply?

“ATTACK!!!”


Edited by Astratus (11/29/07 03:27 PM)
_________________________
They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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#286781 - 11/29/07 03:48 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
 Quote:
The only honest answer I can give to the question of "God" is I don't know.


You can push, and you can push, and you can push... but if the sign says "pull", what's the most reasonable assumption you can make?

I personally try and make reasonable assumptions based on my perception of reality. The idea of "God" just doesn't seem very reasonable to me.


Edited by Astratus (11/29/07 03:49 PM)
_________________________
They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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#286978 - 11/29/07 11:56 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: J. Hagalaz]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
Sure they represent two aspects of human nature. The Stupid, Anti-Life, Victim aspect of it. And the Intelligent, Carnal, and Masterful aspect of it.

"God" is whatever a person means it to be. "God" is the spiritual nature of the human being. "Satan" is the carnal. What Magus LaVey stated so eloquently, is that in the end, there is no difference between these two things, the Spiritual and the Carnal. "Spiritual nature" is simply a self deception, but it still arises from carnal urges.
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"It's pretty fun, doing the impossible." -Walt Disney

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