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#286687 - 11/29/07 07:57 AM Re: Turning The Tables [Re: Taubmann]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Taubmann
Magister Svengali, people who claim Jung had "theistic leanings" always do it in order to justify their own beliefs, a lot of pseudo occultist spanish cults use to do it for example.

And about Gods being the invention of man, I think we should separate two different facts:

1-Archetypes are not creation of man, but the different aspects of human nature. They are very important as they can serve you to fully understand yourself and humanity.

2-Gods are cultural entities based on archetypes. They represent the views of a local culture on a specific archetype, and so they are created by man. They only matter when they can serve you to understand better the archetype they represent.



I agree. But they all stem from human nature - hardwiring and/or cultural embellishment.

The "Gods" or "God" do not exist "out there" - they are the product of human imagination (either projected or encountered in introverted mental states) in turn based in the carnal evolution of the human brain and nervous system.

To say "god" might exist is actually more nonsensical than saying a 12 galaxy tall chocolate rabbit might exist because a "12 galaxy tall chocolate rabbit" is actually a more coherent description with specific meaning than "god" which has been used and stretched to the point that it has NO meaning whatsoever.

Once you say any term such as "god" can mean ANYTHING you want it to, it is rendered MEANINGLESS and devoid of any referential content outside of the personal whim of whoever is using it.

Even the best most abstract attempts to frame a coherent definition of god or argument for its existence are circular, begging the question, and pre-assume what they profess to "prove."

It is safe to say "god" doesn't exist because it is a meaningless or self-refuting concept AT BEST.

Again - that some here can't follow this is not the shortcoming of the case, rather of their comprehension - they keep sliding back to "you never know" or "you can't PROVE its not..." etc.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO "PROVE" IT - IT IS SELF-REFUTING NONSENSE INCAPABLE OF PROOF BECAUSE IT IS DEVOID OF MEANING TO BEGIN WITH.

Water seeks its own level.

If religious people were capable of REASONING they would not BELIEVE their nonsense to begin with. They are not capable.

If so-called "agnostics" who want to say "you never know" were capable of comprehending that the premise is LOGICALLY flawed and self-refuting in the first place, that there is NOTHING to prove or disprove, they wouldn't waffle around wondering if the absurd might still be hiding out there in the universe somewhere.

The shortcoming is not in the reasons for dismissing the idea - the shortcoming is in the inability of the individual to understand why.

LOGIC or REASON is not a "faith" or some arcane system of brainwashing. Its use is in disciplining thought. Part of it is weeding out patently absurd and self-refuting concepts to begin with.

Most people are addicted to their own sloppy inner dialogue, usually based on sloppy use of language and lack of real reasoning skills. This is why there will always be Religions in the world until someone fulfills James Watson's hope of a genetic cure for stupidity.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286688 - 11/29/07 07:58 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
mighty_honour_kr Offline


Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Scotland, United Kingdom
 Originally Posted By: Dr_Shaadriq_Aliz
I accept the possibility that God might exist because it cannot be proved that he does not.


I understand that it's improbable that the God(s) of modern religion(s) exists, however neither I nor the sciences of our time have the ability to eliminate such a possibility.

I have not the evidence to allow such a theory to affect my decisions, neither do I have the evidence to declare it impossible, to do so would be just as arrogantly presumptuous as the fundamentalists.

Better, or worse?
_________________________
"Because we do not know when we will die, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. And yet everything happens only a certain number of times, and a very small number really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, an afternoon that is so deeply a part of your being that you cannot conceive of your life without it? Perhaps four, or five times more? Perhaps not even that. How many more times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless..."

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#286697 - 11/29/07 08:38 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: mighty_honour_kr]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
I just want to say this thread has turned out to be the best discussion i have seen on these boards since i registered.

I am enjoying nearly every post.

I have also come to the conclusion after some thinking that Magister Nemo's assertion is correct but that still does not mean i believe there is a god and so Svengali is also correct my logic goes like this.

Truth is something that we can prove over and over again even this second, truths are things like fire burns wind blows and suchlike, these are infinitely provable things unless they happen to change.

God is not a truth and therefore does not exist, but i acknowledge the possibility that he might even if he does not but i don't just believe it and therefore don't care about it.

“Belief means not wanting to know what is true”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

This is in my signature and the guy really was onto something with it lets analyze what he was saying.

If you believe something is true you have already decided if its true or not and therefore wont think as hard to prove or disprove the truth, I as a Satanist want to know something is true BEFORE i allow myself to believe it and that is the fundamental difference between my religion and a faith based one, i will always assume something to be untrue by default.

So in closing unless the guy in the sky knocks on my door one morning and invites me to lunch he does not exist I have proven it to myself and thats good enough for me but i acknowledge that he may be just caught in traffic.
_________________________
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#286713 - 11/29/07 10:13 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Svengali]
Unknown Offline
Unknown

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1649
 Quote:
That is why I still think the current pop trend toward atheism is a desirable thing, from a Satanic perspective, in eroding some of the influence of religion over people


The issue with this is that people will always allow the influence of religion over their lives. "The need to believe" has been wired into the populations nature for centuries and to fight against this is but a pipe dream.

I do agree with you however that the pop trend of atheism erodes SOME of the religious influence in this world but is it really doing much? Is there really a conversion from this "need to believe" into atheism? It seems to me that this is the very fuel that sparks the fire of Christian madness. Atheism has always been a tool of doubt in my bag but I never felt it was the most important element being a Satanist. It is just one element I use.

 Quote:
even if the atheists for the most part are still bland "humanists" of a quasi-christian ethical bent, at least they are not as inclined to take directions from invisible friends - or prone to be complete fanatics as the religious wackos are.


I agree with you 100% Magister and hopefuly it will never come to the point where atheists are as bent as the Christian whackos. I doubt it would ever come to that anyways.
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#286716 - 11/29/07 10:31 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Unknown]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Even if they only succeed in chipping one small brick from the foundations of that idiocy it is better than nothing.

Humans are wackos. They will succeed in turning anything into a premise for deranged behavior.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286721 - 11/29/07 11:03 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Svengali]
The_Lightning Offline


Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1325
Loc: Israel
 Quote:
The Satanic stance of atheism and materialism is not in contradiction with the Satanic understanding of magic - which avoids as many unwarranted hypotheses as possible, and does a good job of it. Just because something is not explained does not mean it isn't real, or useful. It also doesn't mean that it is the work of "spiritual forces" outside the spectrum of material phenomenon just because the guy in the lab coat hasn't wrapped his mind around it yet.


I'm wondering if you are referring to my previous post here.
Since I now realize I wrote "metaphysical" instead of "sub-atomic" (which is a serious mistake on my part) I guess that maybe you are.

In any case, I would like to point this out:

Of course it is a lot more logical to presume, based on observations, that there is some kind of non-conscious "balancing force of nature" through which one can employ Higher Magic (in the meaning of "sending emotionally-charged ideas to the subconscious of an absent person via some sort of quantum-physical method" [absolutely materialistic]), than to presume that there is a spooky man in the sky who can tell us what to do [absolutely metaphysical].

The idea in my previous post was to point out that logic would beg to be skeptical of anything not yet proven (like the aforementioned sort of Higher Magic) and to disagree with anything that contradicts logic.

I think it is strange that a person who is SURE of the existence of something yet to be proven (or of something impossible such as immortality), would also be merely skeptical about the existence of something as ludicrous as God.
Because I would expect that if one is wary of making wide logical assertions (such as asserting God does not exist) for LOGIC'S SAKE, he would carry this line of thought through.
But the inconsistence makes me assume that there was no support of logic there in the first place, hence all those statements are based on faith of someone who is agenda-driven.


Right now I know that Higher-Magic works on a psychological level, and am skeptical that it works on some sub-atomic level.
I also know that the idea of God is a bunch of utter bullshit that logic easily refutes.


Edited by The_Lightning (11/29/07 11:20 AM)
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#286723 - 11/29/07 11:10 AM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: The_Lightning]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I essentially agree.

Just one thing - there is no reason to assume "the clincher" explanation for greater magic, if one ever comes, will hinge on sub-atomic physical explanations.

Everything has subatomic aspects, and there may be some interesting indicators emerging from that area of study (being careful to avoid confusion from parallel metaphors that are not really referring to the same things), but there is no reason to assume at this point that it will be a predominantly "quantum" type explanation.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#286749 - 11/29/07 01:42 PM Re: Humans are wackos. [Re: Svengali]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Humans are wackos. They will succeed in turning anything into a premise for deranged behavior.


I think that is one of the greatest statements I have seen in print in many a year!

Thank you, Magister!

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#286750 - 11/29/07 01:44 PM We are in total agreement. [Re: Drake_Bamboozle]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12591
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Just because I cannot prove otherwise does not stop me seeing that it is bullshit.


That is exactly what I have been saying all along in this overly long thread.

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#286757 - 11/29/07 02:22 PM Re: Do not pin your Satanism on your atheism. [Re: Nemo]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
I am atheist by default. Throughout my whole life whenever I was faced with the question, "Do you believe in god?" I always answered with, "I cannot believe that the universe is controlled by a personality."

Of course I can't prove it. I don't spend much time thinking about it either. Whether there is a god or not doesn't make a lick of difference in my life.

The philosophy of Satanism supports my base character and gives me the tools to exploit my strengths and strengthen my weaknesses. Atheism is somewhere at the bottom of this 'Satanic character.' To me, Satanism and atheism are inseparable. The Satanist is self-aware and self-serving. The deist is self-denying.

The religion of Satanism supports my need to be imaginative and creative. The truly brilliant creators are always working outside the framework and poking around in dark places where uncovered knowledge rests. The religion supports those who venture outside the comfort zone set by the others who dare not step out of line out of fear.

This is how it is built in me.

Atheism -> Satanic Philosophy (Might Is Right) -> Satanic Magic

If Anton LaVey never created this religion, I would still be an atheist. A lesser atheist than I am now, but an atheist still.


Edited by HoundDog (11/29/07 02:23 PM)
Edit Reason: forgot an S
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#286768 - 11/29/07 03:11 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: Nemo]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
I always felt that symbolically Jesus and Satan were one and the same (two parts of one whole). They represent two different aspects of human nature. But if you think about it, which of the two do you think paid the most for man's "sins"? I say probably the one who was cursed to crawl on his belly forever in dirt for being more persuasive than God.

I think the whole concept of God and Satan was nothing more than a Freudian slip of the stylus, so to speak. Dr. LaVey explained this eloquently; God is the externalization of the human ego, Satan is the externalization of human nature. Satanism puts the two back together where they belong.

If Jesus came into the picture now, as an actual being, I’d think it was all a trick. Even if he was real, I probably wouldn’t like him. I was once asked “If Jesus came down from Heaven today, what would you say?”

My reply?

“ATTACK!!!”


Edited by Astratus (11/29/07 03:27 PM)
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They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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#286781 - 11/29/07 03:48 PM Re: Prove it and win the Nobel Prize! [Re: Majic]
J. Hagalaz Offline


Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 1212
Loc: USA
 Quote:
The only honest answer I can give to the question of "God" is I don't know.


You can push, and you can push, and you can push... but if the sign says "pull", what's the most reasonable assumption you can make?

I personally try and make reasonable assumptions based on my perception of reality. The idea of "God" just doesn't seem very reasonable to me.


Edited by Astratus (11/29/07 03:49 PM)
_________________________
They are doomed because they cannot even glimpse beyond the construct that their masters have put into place. Their masters are doomed because they believe in the construct they created.

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#286978 - 11/29/07 11:56 PM Re: It is amazing to me... [Re: J. Hagalaz]
VictorWolf Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 237
Sure they represent two aspects of human nature. The Stupid, Anti-Life, Victim aspect of it. And the Intelligent, Carnal, and Masterful aspect of it.

"God" is whatever a person means it to be. "God" is the spiritual nature of the human being. "Satan" is the carnal. What Magus LaVey stated so eloquently, is that in the end, there is no difference between these two things, the Spiritual and the Carnal. "Spiritual nature" is simply a self deception, but it still arises from carnal urges.
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