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#290342 - 12/13/07 11:09 AM Money Sense
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Reading about all these morons roped into variable interest rate loans and mortgages confirms that GENERAL STUPIDITY will continue to be the downfall of civilization.

I'm friends with an old Italian guy from NYC who is 80 years old. His son just moved back home because he lost his job with some factory that closed. The "kid" is older than I am. The old man can't figure out why his son never listened to him and lived within his means, saved money for emergencies, etc.

The kids friends are even dumber - the kid continues to lose out by proxy to his idiot friends. One borrows and wrecks the kid's van with the kid's prescription pain killers in the glove compartment. The idiot goes to jail. The kid has to replace his van and go through all the red tape to renew necessary prescriptions, etc...... ALL confirming my opinion that anyone who collects dumb friends is at least as dumb as anyone they befriend.

Another of the retarded friends inherited close to $200,000 when his mother died. He blew it all on motorcycles, boats, cars, stereos, and other stupid shit until he was so far in debt that he lost everything, they even foreclosed on his house!!!!!

Seriously, what kind of IDIOT can inherit $200,000 and then be bankrupt within three years?

When I was little, my Grandfather and I would play MONOPOLY. My Grandfather was an illiterate factory worker who managed his money enough to do well and actually support quite a number of people while still affording his own pleasures such as trips to Vegas and his 1974 Eldorado. He used Monopoly to teach me about money. He would be the "bank" and loan me money with interest, etc. teaching me how to save, keep some aside, don't spend too much, invest conservatively in different things, etc. Very BASIC brass tacks commonsense stuff that has worked for people nearly as long as there has been any such thing as money.

1. Earn as much as you can.
2. Spend less than you earn.
3. What you don't spend, save a REALISTIC amount for emergencies and unforeseen shit.
4. Beyond that invest CONSERVATIVELY and cautiously, either in your own enterprises, or wisely and cautiously in other enterprises, stocks, CDs (NOT compact discs), etc.
5. If you are doing well beyond that, then invest at a higher risk that usually has better payoffs - but only if you can afford to lose!!!!

All of the above modified by "quality of life" considerations.

The biggest problem I see with most people is their trying to "keep up with the Joneses" etc. or wanting things beyond their means, MINDLESS compulsive idiotic consumerism, etc.

So, are you an Ant or a Grasshopper?

Do you use your head or are you a fuck up?

Remember: The FIRST Satanic Sin is STUPIDITY.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder. -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#290360 - 12/13/07 12:12 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
Storm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/30/07
Posts: 567
Loc: West Valley, UT, USA
Excellent post Magister! I agree that quite a bit of what we desire in life may be achieved through common sense goal setting. Any event or vacation my Queen and I have engaged in was accomplished by simply saving a portion of our income until we had enough money to take the trip - period. We refuse to overextend ourselves like so many others on credit cards or payday loans. Our everyday lives are managed by utilizing a budget... I wonder how many of these morons have even heard the word "budget"?
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#290365 - 12/13/07 12:24 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
RottenBonnie Offline


Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 546
Loc: The West Coast, USA
 Originally Posted By: Svengali
The biggest problem I see with most people is their trying to "keep up with the Joneses" etc. or wanting things beyond their means, MINDLESS compulsive idiotic consumerism, etc.


When I worked at a bookstore it was disheartening to see the people come in and buy only the books that they were told to buy by the media. Books like, "The Secret," remain best sellers for months and are nothing but trash. And these are supposedly the "smart" retail customers because they are shopping at a bookstore?? Can you imagine the mentality of people shopping at Wal-Mart? People buy what the media tells them they need rather than thinking for themselves.
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#290369 - 12/13/07 12:35 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: RottenBonnie]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
I will dare to recieve scorn by answering this essay honestly (though it wasn't personally a question towards myself.) I live with my girlfriend, and we live within our means, I can honestly say. We both have modest paying jobs, we have a very high rent as that is the state of the city we live in. For a couple of years before I moved out with her, I was living on my own, in a cold room in a basement. As was my OWN fault, and I can admit this, I did not have a job that allowed me to live how I wanted, and so at this time to "make ends meet" I incurred some debt on a credit card. Eventually, I got the fuck out of there, and how live as I said, in an apartment together with my girlfriend. We have been here a few months, and after paying off some equipment we bought (A computer, couch, etc.) and me, alone, paying the minimum off of my card, I can finally start to pay the debt off, and be back to normal (With good credit to boot.)

Responsibility to the responsible. I was the fool who created the problem for myself, and even though my girlfriend and I are acting as one financially, the debt incurred is still my responsibility. I WILL pay it off, without the burden falling on her shoulders at all.

And yes, if I were to inherit 200,000 dollars, it would be used very very wisely, without a single hummer or yacht to show for it. People who obtain a marginal amount of money (one that does not come from a replenishing source) somehow believe they are rich, and all of their problems are finally over. Too bad that ferarri they bought has a higher insurance charge then their rent costs.


Edited by Phosis (12/13/07 12:37 PM)

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#290371 - 12/13/07 12:49 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Most peoples idea of "budget" means "manageable debt."

Debt is bad.

I'm surprised how many people I've talked to who have MASSIVE credit card debts and they don't even know how much interest they are paying! They have NO idea what their interest rates are! I've heard of some credit cards with interest rates in the ballpark of 25%!

Debt = Bad, with VERY few exceptions.

There are some ways to use some debts to temporary advantage, but that is only AFTER establishing a sound foundation.

I used to "date" a gal who was a waitress in a ritzy place and who made a TON of money in tips. For example, on an event night like New Years, etc. it was not uncommon for her to come home with $700-1000 in tips.

She got it in her head that she wanted to start investing in stocks. She sat down and mapped how much she could make in interest over time on various stocks, mutual funds, and bonds.

She was ignoring the fact that she still was paying on a MASSIVE Student Loan with interest.

When she compared the projected performance of all the investments she was considering to the amount of interest she was paying on outstanding debts, she was still BARELY breaking even!

Only after REALLY sitting down and crunching the ACTUAL numbers did the light blink on - and her first step was to pay off her interest-accruing debts.

Paying interest on large debts is like rowing a sinking boat.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder. -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#290408 - 12/13/07 03:31 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
It's a common feature in the news right now that the UK's economy is pretty much financed on consumer debt. Personally I don't understand the mentality of people who have thousands of pounds on their credit cards or on loans who don't seem to think it's a problem; as Magister Svengali says debt is BAD. It's one thing to have a mortgage (after all, most of us don't have several hundred thousand pounds sitting in our bank accounts) but it's another to buy pretty much everything you own on credit with interest. I'm forever being bombarded with credit card offers with the "low" interest rate of 15 to 21% or something in that area - what kind of morons are seeing that and thinking they're getting a deal? The kind that see "0% interest for six months" and don't go any further, that's who.

I was raised from the age of ten to have a budget and have kept a spreadsheet of all my finances since I began to earn money. Even now with an extremely good credit rating I would rather save money over a period of time to buy something big (like a new computer) rather than get the money as a loan. As I've grown older I've come to the conclusion that I'm in a very small minority as most people my age don't seem to think twice about splashing out on their credit cards as if it's free money.

Even more disturbing is the trend now of companies marketing loans at people who can't afford to pay off their debts. "Are all your debts becoming unmanageable? Got more going out than you have coming in? Then you should look into a loan with Loanshark Ltd. We'll consolidate all your debts into one easy payment and you could even borrow enough to have some left over for a new car or a holiday". So let me get this straight - people who are crippled with debt should be borrowing more money for things they DON'T ACTUALLY NEED?!?!

Saying that, given that we appear to have reached a point in consumer culture where people feel entitled to a foreign holiday at least once a year, a new car every few years, a new mobile phone every six months, an ever-expanding wardrobe, to and be able to move house every few years and other materialistic baubles it's not surprising people get to this state. Again I don't personally understand it because I'm not really much of a consumer, I don't see the need for all those things (which is maybe why I'm not in debt and have quite a respectable sum saved up in my tax free bank account).
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#290413 - 12/13/07 03:50 PM Good debt and bad debt. [Re: Svengali]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12600
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
The following are my own definitions.

Consumer debt = bad debt.

Consumer debt is any debt incurred to buy items or services that do not in themselves produce money for you.

Business debt = good debt

Business debt is any debt incurred to buy items or services that do produce money for you.

Examples of consumer debt include any home mortgage for your own home, personal auto loans, auto or home maintenance, any entertainment (movies, DVDs, mp3s, eating at restaurants, etc.).

Examples of business debt include any mortgages for income property, auto loans for business vehicles, office maintenance, marketing expenses, goods productions costs, shipping expenses, etc.

And your business needs to be profitable after taxes or it becomes a personal hobby only and could be considered consumer debt.

IF your cash flow is required to pay for business expenses and the allocation of that cash flow for paying down consumer debt would cause you to overall lose business, then you may have to slowly pay off consumer debt on a schedule within your means.

However the bottom line remains the bottom line.

Excellent post, Magister!

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#290421 - 12/13/07 04:28 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
Philotechnic Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 745
Loc: NC, US
I hate debt, even the idea of BEING in debt, so this is why I'm completely reluctant to get a credit card. A lot of people don't realize that when they get a credit card, it's not free money and surely doesn't come without a price.

But a gripe that I have with the way money is handled in this country is that the government taxes people who actually save and invest money (bonds, etc.), but yet rewards people who blow their money or put themselves into poverty (welfare, etc.).

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#290422 - 12/13/07 04:35 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Philotechnic]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Credit cards are good to have for emergencies and basically indispensable if you travel, book reservations, or rent cars.

The important thing is to use them with discipline and pay them off on time.

Really, how Satanic is it to get fleeced on interest rates?

I see people in gas stations and convenience stores paying with credit cards! Nothing like paying interest on gas you burned up or a soft drink you drank six months ago!

Likewise having good credit and the ability to BORROW in the event of emergency is a useful resource, even if just for peace of mind that you can if you need to whether or not you ever do.

You can't establish a good credit history without borrowing and paying on schedule.

Fools that lack perspective and appreciation of consequences wind up paying "rent" for the air they breathe.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder. -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#290423 - 12/13/07 04:48 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
Rory_Rocketpants Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 1795
Loc: unknown
I am actually considering taking out a loan very soon to pay for a new car.

Maybe around $6k.

I can pay this off in two years comfortably.


This is a necessity, but I have planned it, and would not take too large a loan out as I do not want to fall behind with payments.

I have no credit cards, and hate the idea of them.

The reason I did not go to University is because I didn't want to wind up in debt...

(It'd be better to go when a sum of money had been accumulated to fund it. I've plenty of time.)

Great post, Magister.
One would assume that it goes without saying, however... ;\)

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#290434 - 12/13/07 05:22 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
A lot of credit cards have an interest-free grace period, especially for people who make regular payments. For my card, as long as I'm regular with my payments, I don't need to pay interest on most of my purchases. So I keep my balance low, keep my payments regular, and benefit from the convenience.

Then again, it doesn't hurt your credit rating to incur a little consumer interest here and there, as long as it's within your means. The limit on my account keeps getting bumped up because I always have a little bit of interest to pay every month. Those payments are no big deal for me, I keep them well within my means, but they do good for my credit rating.
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#290449 - 12/13/07 06:24 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Storm]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
 Originally Posted By: Storm
I wonder how many of these morons have even heard the word "budget"?


Well, the U.S. government knows people can't budget (income tax withholding).

Seriously, if folks just paid themselves as often as the government does (each paycheck/every month) saving money would be easy. I've been doing it for about ten years. Some folks choose a 401k (avoid those taxes) and some folks want their savings to be more accessible. I do both. It may not be the quickest or the sexiest way to gain financial security but it seems to be working just fine for me.


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#290475 - 12/13/07 08:48 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
HammerOfDoubt Offline


Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 479
Loc: Miami, FL
Wait a minute...
They told me the plastic card was a magical goodies creator!!!
I'm only 23, I cant be held responsible for things like that!!
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#290481 - 12/13/07 09:16 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
smash Offline


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 43
 Originally Posted By: Svengali

Likewise having good credit and the ability to BORROW in the event of emergency is a useful resource, even if just for peace of mind that you can if you need to whether or not you ever do.


Like you said, BORROW being the key word here. Not free money. I think many people miss that point altogether or simply ignore it.

Not attempting to diverge from the topic, isn't capitalism dependant on consumerism?

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#290482 - 12/13/07 09:19 PM Re: Money Sense [Re: Svengali]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
I agree. If you don't have any credit cards or credit history you are an unknown risk as far as banks are concerned.

When I turned 18 I took out a loan for a couple thousand dollars. I directly put that money into a special checking account. I didn't use the money for anything and paid it back on schedule, including the interest. Why would I pay interest on money I didn't even use? For a around $200 I bought myself an excellent FICO score. This got me lower interest rates when I bought a car & a house and on credit cards. In the long run, I've saved far more than $200. I watch Suze Orman more than I'd care to admit, does it show?

 Quote:
I see people in gas stations and convenience stores paying with credit cards! Nothing like paying interest on gas you burned up or a soft drink you drank six months ago!

Respectfully, I'd like to suggest that not everyone who swipes a card bearing the name Visa is charging something. My debit card is backed by a credit card company and I can choose to pay as credit or debit without incurring any fees either way. Basically, I use it like an electronic check because it clears my account faster and I don't have to order checks as frequently. Aside from that, I have 2 credit cards, one for personal use (which I almost never use) and one for business expenditures (which simplifies my accounting).
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