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#292598 - 12/22/07 08:46 PM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: RottenBonnie]
Poetaster Offline
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Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
 Quote:
Usually a juvenile will not just commit murder out of the blue. One day a perfectly normal kid, the next day 7 year old beaten to death. No, this wasn't just "something stupid" that the kids did while they were drunk. In fact, if it were "merely an accident" they would deserve LESS reprecussions for their actions. However, repeatedly hitting someone much smaller than oneself shows a tendency for violence that doesn't just manifest itself one day out of the blue.


Couple idiocy with alcohol, and it is quite possible to commit murder "out of the blue". It happens all of the time. But it was certainly no accident in this case, and I never said that it was. The two committed murder as sure as I'm sitting here typing this. But there is nothing in this story that even suggests prior signs of violence or criminal behavior, so there's no reason for myself, or you, to start lynching the parents for allowing these two to babysit.

Basically, this all boils down to not making hasty judgment calls about a story that we really know nothing about. I know that the two teenagers did something heinous, I know that at least one was intoxicated, and I know that they deserve to face the jury, however, that's the extent of what I know. It does me no no good to assume that the parents made a bad call or neglected some facet of their parenting duties. And although it could turn out that they did just that, jumping to conclusions is never the right way to go when searching for answers.

Let the truth come out in trial, lest it start warping through speculation.

I do see your position, and in many cases it is absolutely correct I'm sure, however, I don't think that we can safely assume such to be the case right now, considering the limited knowledge we have about the incident in question. And my main contention is not that parents are never culpable, it is how fast some people are to cast stones before the dust has even settled.

Knee-jerk reactions are fairly ugly and rarely correct.

But hey, at least we agree that these jerk-offs deserve some fine Justice Department housing. ;\)
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#292697 - 12/23/07 08:01 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: Poetaster]
Bruja Offline

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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
There are a lot of horrid parents out there, that is unfortunately a fact that cannot be argued. That being said, I don't agree with the sentiment that any individual who raises a child that displays criminal behavior (or is simply an idiot) necessarily failed as a parent, was neglectful, or did a terrible job raising them.

As a mother, my job is to protect and nurture my children, help them discover who they are so they can find their own path in life, and guide them into adulthood. As they develop and mature, I can only hope that they choose to make smart choices for themselves and society, but it is essentially out of my hands. I am raising individuals who have the ability to make their own decisions, and they must take the consequences of those choices, good or bad. Such is life.

Trust me, once your child hits a certain age, you learn fairly quickly that the game changes and it's not about you having the "control" over them. I've known plenty of attentive, loving and devoted parents who had children that grew to follow an ugly path. If my older teen decided to go off the deep end, it would of course be heartbreaking for me, but it sure as hell doesn't make me a bad parent or give anyone the right to automatically blame me for his choices.

Just my thoughts.
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Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

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#292701 - 12/23/07 08:19 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: Bruja]
Poetaster Offline
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Registered: 01/20/06
Posts: 2334
Loc: East Coast, USA.
 Quote:
If my older teen decided to go off the deep end, it would of course be heartbreaking for me, but it sure as hell doesn't make me a bad parent or give anyone the right to automatically blame me for his choices.


Exactly!

That's what gets my goat, so many people are so quick to burn parents at the stake. I just don't like it when people make knee-jerk reactions and consider it some grand truth about the universe. That's basically what I've been beating over the head in this entire exchange, and I thank you, as a parent, for weighing in with your opinion.

Hail Responsibility where it belongs!
_________________________
"People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a personís faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next."

- Sam Harris





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#292702 - 12/23/07 08:33 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: Poetaster]
Bruja Offline

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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
You're welcome.

I agree with your viewpoint in this thread.
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Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

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#292708 - 12/23/07 09:13 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: Bruja]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Bruja
There are a lot of horrid parents out there, that is unfortunately a fact that cannot be argued. That being said, I don't agree with the sentiment that any individual who raises a child that displays criminal behavior (or is simply an idiot) necessarily failed as a parent, was neglectful, or did a terrible job raising them.


I think that on the average good parenting will create better children - but average doesn't make it a universal rule. I think that most of us who have lived to a certain age have seen examples of good parents ending up with children who make all the wrong choices, and the reverse is true also. I am one of those who choose not to let bad parenting, a dysfunctional family etc. be what determined my path in life.

I think you have the right idea - set them on the right path, but at a certain age it becomes their own responsibility to stay there or choose another path that seems right for them, parents don't always know what is best for their offspring. We shouldn't have boys in their thirties still relying on their mother to do their laundry or mothers who still try to micromanage the lives of their daughters well into their forties as I've seem it happen around me.
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#292709 - 12/23/07 09:23 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: verszou]
TrojZyr Offline
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Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
As usual, it's not an "always or never" deal. I would tend to agree that good, attentive parenting will be more likely to succeed than fail, and bad or negligent parenting will be more likely to create a little shithead or psychopath than a concert pianist.

But, for whatever reasons, by whatever causes--peer pressure, mental illness, bad decisions, rebellion, just plain individuation/making different choices--children sometimes do things that will shame their generally-competent parents.

I usually like to watch and see who or what the parents blame, and how shrilly. That can tell you a lot.

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"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#292710 - 12/23/07 09:25 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: TheDegenerate]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
 Quote:
I personally believe, and always believe that the age and other factors should not have an effect on sentencing. A crime is a crime, whether it be committed by a ten year old, or a fourty year old. I think a parent should share this punishment if the suspect is of a very young age.


I disagree. A few years ago there was a 6 year old who brought a gun to school. He shot one of his classmates. He had no comprehension that the little girl died and wasn't coming back to school. Yes, shooting someone is certainly wrong, and the little boy deserved an appropriate punishment (as did the parents who were careless enough to allow a 6 year old access of a gun).

There is a HUGE difference between a 6 year old killing someone because he saw it on tv or in a video game and did not have the cognitive functioning to understand what he had done versus teens. The reason that I make this distinction is because around the age of 13 or 14 a child has reached the final stage of cognitive development (although their experience and decision-making skills will become more refined with experience). A teenager has the ability to identify right from wrong and to understand repercussions of their actions. I'm all for charging teenagers as adults. However, it would be unfair to charge a 10 year old who lacks the mental capacity of an adult, as an adult.
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#292715 - 12/23/07 09:48 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: Bruja]
Zaftig Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 3406
I do think it's true that children indeed have a strong personality of their own, and the best a parent can do is try to nurture and encourage them to find heir own path.

Just to add some anecdotal stories to the thread topic, on the flip side, even somewhat "neglected" children can turn out well. My mother wasn't necessarily neglectful, but she was, say, sometimes a little blind (I'll put it nicely, as none of her children doubt her love, just her damn foolish reasoning).

But we all turned out quite well, despite being in the prime statistical group to either get into crime, welfare dependency or have babies well before we were even remotely prepared. Somehow the balance in my childhood household shifted, and we partly took care of her. So responsibility and consequences were learned at a young age.

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#292718 - 12/23/07 09:50 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: AurEum]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Naturally, it depends on the nature of the crime.

A 6-year-old who shoots somebody probably didn't know what he was doing. In most cases, 6-year-olds do not know what they're doing, period. Children can do lots of dumb, horrible things in one quick movement and one fell swoop, because they typically lack the wisdom, development, and sophistication to do otherwise.

Now, a 10-year-old who drags a toddler down to the railroad tracks and beats them to death--that's another matter. A 6-year-old who habitually and sadistically hurts people and animals--that's a cause for real concern. Certainly, a 16-year-old ought to know better than to go full "mortal kombat" on a small child or animal (and I'd argue that even goes for if they're drunk).

(To the judge who will preside over this particular case, I say, "FINISH THEM!")

People who do those sorts of things are typically either too psychopathic to be allowed to roam, or too retarded to be left alone. I might tend to argue that even a normal-seeming kid who--in a moment of childish wrath and poor common sense--commits a really, profoundly sadistic or gory crime has been changed for the worse by that event, not unlike a bear or a tiger that has had a taste of human flesh. I would love to see more research on this, because I have always wondered just how much one's wicked childhood acts come to bear on one's attitude, productivity, or conduct as an adult.

And, I really do wish adults would stop blaming music, games, and movies. Yes, these things can heighten aggression, but the job of adults is to help kids navigate safely and intelligently through a world that makes them feel angry, pouty, and aggressive sometimes. The idea that something else "makes you" do something against your will is not a very productive one.

"I'm sorry, Officer, I was practicing my fatality moves when I punched that old lady in the spine. Oh, and I was mad that she had 12 items in the 10-items-or-less aisle, because I don't want to miss 'Grey's Anatomy.'"
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#292725 - 12/23/07 10:20 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: Zaftig]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
 Quote:
Just to add some anecdotal stories to the thread topic, on the flip side, even somewhat "neglected" children can turn out well.


Absolutely, that's an important flip side of the coin. While the home environment often has a substantial impact on how a person will develop, it's not the only factor. Just as wonderful parents can have children that end up being losers, parents that may not do the best of jobs have been known to have children that shine despite that fact. The cream always rises to the top.

What I always find interesting is hearing how an adult views how their upbringing impacted their life , particulary if they had negative experiences growing up. Everyone I know has a sad story to tell somewhere along the way. That doesn't make anyone special or give them a free pass to go through life whining about how they got the short end of the stick. Observing an individual define themselves by their tragedies or hardships, constantly throwing blame on others for their lack of success and all around playing the victim usually indicates to me that they probably wouldn't have had the strength of character to make it in this world even with an ideal childhood.
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Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

"An inordinate passion for pleasure is the secret of remaining young" - Oscar Wilde

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#292729 - 12/23/07 10:43 AM Re: Children Actually are Killing Due to Video Game Play [Re: Bruja]
HiddenHorror Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 54
Loc: USA
The world has a victim mentality. They are never at fault, and are always the victim.

I personally have persevered through much adversity in my life. I never recall them for pity or for a good story, only if the conversation would warrant my personal experience to lead others in the correct path.

You are defined by what you overcome.

It is a shame that people look for a way out instead of a way to improve themselves these days.

I find it hard to believe that people cannot realize that existence is random and meaningless. Out of the chaos a few shine, but even more fall into oblivion. Good riddance.
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#292980 - 12/24/07 08:53 AM Re: What kind of retards were those two? [Re: Old_Pig]
Allison Offline


Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 31
Loc: nyc
Agreed...quite certain that 16, 17 year old people get that they shouldn't be punching, kicking and bodyslamming little girls (or anyone, for that matter, if not in self defense!). So, while I think that the responsibility fo this "event" falls squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrators, I would bet nearly my last buck that you can find horible parenting, lack of personal responsibilty, etc. rippled throughout their lineage. Scum breeds scum...are there exceptions to this rule? Sure there are, but in my opinion, not many.
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#292987 - 12/24/07 09:53 AM Re: What kind of retards were those two? [Re: Allison]
Adversaryan Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Seattle WA
Sometimes I swear I am the only one who remembers being a kid. i remember beating other kids up over game play. I remember why. Good old flat out anger and jealousy. I remember how when I was a kid I could do something and completely wipe it from my memory at the same time so I didn't even know I did it. There are things people swear I did to this day that I still honestly don't remember doing.
not to mention no actual understanding of consequence because I wasn't doing anything in the first place. there was never any real concept of right and wrong just caught an uncaught and it wasn't because I wasn't told right from wrong it was because everything was only right and wrong some of the time. No consistency in anything. I could beat up a kid one day and not be in trouble and do it again another day and be in trouble. The only lesson learned was everything is fair game as long as your parents don't catch any flack.
So I naturally have to put the blame on the child's lack of reality and the parents fault for there lack of reality. I have a son now as well so I don't like to hear bad parent shit either but its still true. I have never met any great parents with fucked up kids. I don't care how much you like them as people. Fucked up parents have fucked up kids.
All you can do is try to make sure they understand reality and reality's consequences. If you let your son get away with something because you feel sorry for him or you believe his lie or any other reason all he learns is to get away with things, and theres no reason he wouldn't temporarily think he could get away with killing someone. because he might.
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#292995 - 12/24/07 10:44 AM Re: What kind of retards were those two? [Re: Adversaryan]
Bruja Offline

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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
 Quote:
I have never met any great parents with fucked up kids. I don't care how much you like them as people. Fucked up parents have fucked up kids.


I'm quite sure I'm not the only one that would argue these statements. But hey, as long as it's been your life experience, it must be true.
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Hail Satan!
Bruja

"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." - Margaret Thatcher

"An inordinate passion for pleasure is the secret of remaining young" - Oscar Wilde

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#292998 - 12/24/07 10:55 AM Re: What kind of retards were those two? [Re: Bruja]
Adversaryan Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Seattle WA
Lol That aside.

Thats just how it works. The only great parents I have ever met are the ones who are talking about how they would raise there kids. As apposed to how they end up raising there kids. i imagine this probibly more depends on what your and my opinion of a great kid is. but yeah in my life experience from Seattle to Italy and back and all the states in between, family and friends and acquaintances in the last 29 years. All the fucked up kids had a bit fucked up if not equally to more fucked up parents.
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