Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#29231 - 03/01/04 03:11 AM Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage
Moria Offline


Registered: 02/27/04
Posts: 50
Ever since I came to grips with what I am, what I believe in, I've had trouble shaking off some of the elements of my previous Christian upbringing. Now I'm not asking for any of that born-not-made argument here, ok, I don't need any validation from anybody. What I'm talking about is the faulty moral and ethical values, and sometimes plain ol' bullshit ideas from my past as a Christian. Mind you, I didn't ask to be raised by fundamentalist Christian parents, I'm sure no one given the choice before-hand would, but it happened. I'm sure there has to be a few people here who know what I'm talking about.

I have certain inculcated, persistent yearnings that run contrary to my core-beliefs that keep me perpetually depressed. For example, I hold strongly to an atheistic view of the universe, it's just the way I've always been, it's all I can logically justify in my mind, and heart. But the fear of death makes me wish for an afterlife, that I might never taste death and never have to stop enjoying living. Again, though, realize I'm nobody's fool, and I realize the limitations in both myself and the universe. I harbor no belief that I'll live forever, but the fear of death makes me lust just that much more for life!

Another example: I know that might makes right, and Lex Talionis is the rule of the land, but there's still some pathetic vein in me that finds some sort of comfort in the idea that people should have all-encompassing love for one another and lay down their natural distrust and apprehension of one another for a chance at some sort of Jesus-inspired utopia. Realize, I know this is impossible, it is contrary to nature, and thus an impossibility no matter how much a billion humans might wish for it.

But the problem is with the impulses themselves, and that I still have them. Has anyone else had a struggle repairing the damage done to them as a child by any kind of theistic religious upbringing? If so, does anyone have any useful advice as to how best to move on from these harmful lingering attachments to impossible ideas? Since I can remember, since I was a child I remember knowing with all my heart that everyone else was wrong, and that what we saw is what we were getting. But inside, perhaps because of the constant barrage of religious tripe flung my way, I hoped that I was the one who was wrong, and that this crazy supernatural shit was real. And after all these years of struggle, with them having never gotten through, their religion having never "stuck", I feel a sort of sadness that they couldn't invalidate my beliefs.

To sum it up, it's like they knew they'd lost but their last cheap kick in the balls was to make me wish I was wrong. And at times, sometimes more than I'd like, I do. How do I get rid of this kind of baggage?

Moria
_________________________
"Satanism has become a gravitational force. We know that it doesn't matter what you were before. Once you discover your Satanic persona, that's it. You knew it was lurking inside you. You just couldn't quite conceptualize it." - Anton Szandor LaVey

Top
#29232 - 03/01/04 03:39 AM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
Captn_Thatch Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 851
Loc: 115°49'00"W 37°14'00"N
I'd suggest that you turn attention to your own motivations, stop concerning yourself with the past and forget what sort of things you were taught in the beginning. There's nothing wrong with feeling kind towards other people, especially if you're in a good mood. Satanists can be light-hearted, too, you know. We just subscribe to the idea of being fair and just. Tooth for a tooth. However I have to admit that I really don't understand the idea of unconditional compassion for other people that I don't even know. The world works a certain way. People take and give, walk over each other and laugh with each other. It is no mystery and mankind hasn't changed much in his time. It isn't my job to stop the way of the world, so I don't feel obligated to being universally kind. (Plus I'd prefer there to be some stratification and brutality to life) But to the point, it sounds like you could simply take some of the responsibility for who you are, start talking in terms of what you've done and what you are going to do, and less about who screwed you up. I'll admit to some self-deceits as a result of being spoiled and not very mature, often enjoying "escape". I know, however, that no one else is going to kick myself in the ass hard enough for me to pull it together, even IF it was someone else's fault. You only have here and now to fix the things you can do without. Its tough; maybe not even fair, but it is all you can do.
_________________________
Do what thy manhood bids thee do, from none but self expect applause; He noblest lives and noblest dies who makes and keeps his self-made laws. -Sir Richard Francis Burton

Top
#29233 - 03/01/04 05:13 AM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
DrH Offline


Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 33
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
There's nothing wrong with talking the beliefs you like from other religions. I've come to the conclusion that one 'believes' what one hopes to be true, not what one can see to be true. Just remember that it is a belief, not knowledge, and use it to your advantage.

Nobody ever said that a Satanist can't believe in an afterlife. It's something that we just can't know for sure if it exists or not, until we die. Some hope there is, some hope there isn't, some admit not to know and don't worry about it. Go ahead and believe in an afterlife. Just know that no matter what it is, once you die you can't come back to the life you have now. So use it while you can.

Same goes for the hope of a 'love one another' type thing. It is a noble idea, but it just won't work right now. Perhaps some time in the distant future people will find a way to make everyone happy, but not anytime soon. There's nothing wrong with striving for that, however, as long as it helps you first and foremost.

Top
#29234 - 03/01/04 06:25 AM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
Prince_Satanicus Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 1556
Loc: KNOXVILLE, Tennessee, (THE BLA...
I was raised a Pentecostal Christian. It never made any intelligent sense but I convinced myself that I should just have faith and believe.
Well as you can see 27 years later and one preaching time later I just could not hang with the idiocy and fantasy any longer, I read the Satanic Bible, realized that this is what I've always been, Dr. Laveys words resonated like a thunderbolt within and I knew I could no longer base my life on a fantasy their for entertainment not basing ones life on.
How do you get rid of the baggage, kick it the fuck out every time it trys to come in. It'll quit coming in after a while.
TIME heals all or so they say.We shall see.
Darkest greetings
DrkMasterPrince
_________________________
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
"The dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity"

HAIL SATAN
HAIL ANTON LAVEY
HAIL ME

Top
#29235 - 03/01/04 07:03 AM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Why squander life with thoughts of death? If an afterlife means so much to you then why choose Satanism at all? The only person who can resolve such spiritual issues as you describe is you. Satanists are born not made, this is absolute.

Top
#29236 - 03/01/04 08:28 AM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Captn_Thatch]
Moria Offline


Registered: 02/27/04
Posts: 50
Thank you for the intelligent and thought-provoking response. Your advice actually stimulated some quite intense introspection, which is vitally necessary to resolve these feelings. I appreciate your input.
_________________________
"Satanism has become a gravitational force. We know that it doesn't matter what you were before. Once you discover your Satanic persona, that's it. You knew it was lurking inside you. You just couldn't quite conceptualize it." - Anton Szandor LaVey

Top
#29237 - 03/01/04 08:33 AM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Prince_Satanicus]
Moria Offline


Registered: 02/27/04
Posts: 50
That's also some damn good advice. I retrospect, I would probably be better off to stop concerning myself with policies and practicies I can neither believe nor endorse. In time, as you suggest, these old wounds will heal and hopefully by then these trivial afterthoughts will cease to be. Thank you for the encouraging words.
_________________________
"Satanism has become a gravitational force. We know that it doesn't matter what you were before. Once you discover your Satanic persona, that's it. You knew it was lurking inside you. You just couldn't quite conceptualize it." - Anton Szandor LaVey

Top
#29238 - 03/01/04 09:50 AM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Try reading some philosophy, especially that which relates traditional moral concepts directly to self-interest and self enjoyment. It helps you to relate the order and connection of your feelings and of your actions into a whole perspective.

In terms of depth, I recommend Spinoza's Ethics. You can get pretty good translations online. I recommend a Sam Shirley translation, but there are plenty of good ones. Don't get bogged down in the first chapter; find the main theses and absorb the "Notes" (or "Scholia"), especially as the book progresses, and then, if you're interested, track how Spinoza develops those main points.

In terms of breadth and fairness to traditional moral philosophy, I recommend John Dewey and James Tuft's 1932 textbook Ethics. Especially the second and, in your case, the first sections; the third section (applied moral theory to problems of social justice) is pretty dated and naive. (So far as I know, this hasn't been reprinted since 1932, so you might have to get it from the library of your local university. If you're not a student, you can probably buy a membership. I just found a copy of the book in a used bookstore in North Carolina,)

In terms of vigour, I recommend Nietzsche's On the Genealogy of Morals and its companion, Beyond Good and Evil.

Also, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell" by William Blake, which isn't philosophy but is still damn fine spiritual literature.


Edited by reprobate (03/01/04 09:53 AM)
_________________________
reprobate

Top
#29239 - 03/01/04 11:05 AM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
Xerx Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 656
Loc: Italy
…What I'm talking about is the faulty moral and ethical values, and sometimes plain ol' bullshit ideas from my past as a Christian…
I never, Christians have no morality:
Their ethical values are the abstinence independently of the evil that they do.
Their morality is what their Church says they must do, they do not use their brain, they will not question anything is taught to them.

…I hold strongly to an atheistic view of the universe, it's just the way I've always been, it's all I can logically justify in my mind, and heart. But the fear of death…
Solution: Use the concept of God that suits to you. You can do it because nobody can prove you are wrong. Christians believe that everything is not allowed by their rotten God is wrong and should perish: a very fool idea.

…Lex Talionis is the rule of the land, …
It does not seem to me; it seems there are oppressed and oppressors who are never punished.

…there's still some pathetic vein in me that finds some sort of comfort in the idea that people should have all-encompassing love for one another and lay down their natural distrust and apprehension of one another for a chance at some sort of Jesus-inspired utopia. …
Christians in practice do it less than Satanists. Some people are inclined to compassion. In my opinion this is not a weakness, if your compassion is for people who really deserve it. This can enrich you, not impoverish.

…Has anyone else had a struggle repairing the damage done to them as a child by any kind of theistic religious upbringing?…
The real damage in my case is an hesitation in doing what I really want to do. I am curbed, in part by my past, but more by the fact that people in general react in a different way from a Satanist.
I think it is only a matter of time and in these years I improved, but a bit of hesitation helps me in detecting right people from wrong people, it is not only bad.

Hail Satan!
Xerx
_________________________
smile smile

Top
#29240 - 03/01/04 02:38 PM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
Foxy_Ramirez Offline


Registered: 01/16/04
Posts: 207
Loc: Lawrence, KS
The way I threw out my extra baggage was pretty simple for me. When I feel that their might be some ubserd belief deciding to creep into my life, I got through a quest to prove it wrong or right. Everytime I have searched for the truth, I have found it, you just got to know where to look.

The one thing that scared me the most back in the day was the ideals of the afterlife. When I went into search for the truth, it turned out to be just the way I thought it would be and more. Take a read through the Satanic Bible again, there is a chapter in there about the afterlife, and it's right. There is a bit more to the afterlife then what it says, but trust me on this, The christians are way off base when it comes to the afterlife.

I am an avid fan of the ouji board (And I don't give a flying fuck if anybody tells me that is a hox. If people have been sliding that planchette this long, chances are they are getting something out of it!), and everytime I have used it and asked about the afterlife I have been told this one single phrase, "Heaven is what you make it." Don't fall into the notion of building your own hell, because you'll wind up living in it after death. Go out and seek your own truths, they will be there when you are ready to find them.

Hail Satan!
_________________________
"There is a beast in man that should be exercised, not exorcised." ~ Anton Szandor LaVey

Top
#29241 - 03/01/04 02:52 PM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Everyone is different, but in my case, I was never really "indoctrinated".

I remember that first time my grandmother tried to explain me about a guy floating up there who could see everything that was happening in the world at the same time, it just sounded ridiculous. Even for a 4-year-old that sounded like baloney.

I admit at some early stages of my life I believed in a God (thought I always had a doubt, I was more an Agnostic than a Theist) But I was never a real "religious" type. It just didn’t click with me. I visited Church some times, and some times I sincerely tried to "feel" something. I alerted all my senses, trying to capture that divine feeling that was supposed to be there... but I never felt anything. The Christian ritual was meaningless to me. It was just an old guy reading an old book.

Of course, I had the advantage of being born in an officially atheistic country. But I didn’t buy the official propaganda either. I guess I was just born an “unbeliever”. Also, my mother was not religious. I’m sure she has never heard the name LaVey in her life, but she is definitely a “de facto”.

So, for me, taking that final step (after reading the Satanic Bible and finding out what I was) was relatively easy for me. I know most people with a religious background find this step hard, since they have to leave behind years of conditioning and indoctrination.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


Top
#29242 - 03/01/04 03:09 PM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Old_Pig]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
Oh, and I watched Dateline a few nights ago, and scientists have found the seat of "god" in the brain. Apparently, when one prays, worships, meditates, or ritualizes, activity in a certan section of the parietal lobe decreases, and that part is responsible for allowing one to have a sense of position and location in space and time. So, when that part of the brain shuts down, one loses one's sense of location and self, which feels like "god."
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

Top
#29243 - 03/01/04 04:03 PM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
DCAdam22 Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 238
Loc: Washington, DC
Moria, you seem intelligent and very secure in knowing what you are, that is admirable. I figure it's only natural that lingering ideas from your past still haunt you at certain times. My parents were both Athiests- rare it seems- and as such I was never indoctrinated into anything, except maybe the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, just for fun as a child. So for me Jehovah was less real than even the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, less than a myth. The Greek and Roman gods I read about it elementary school even seemed more real than the myths of Israel's "God."
Maybe I can't know what it's like to be raised by fundamentalists, BUT living in a largely Judeo-Christian culture I do know what it feels like to be at odds with the mainstream (all Satanists do to some degree, I suppose). And for that my advice to you is to simply know your inner compass, and have the knowledge to know what are your inner feelings, versus those implanted there by society and family (and it seems you have this knowledge).
Hail Satan!

-Adam
_________________________
"It's too bad stupidity isn't painful." -Anton Szandor LaVey

"We are all animals, my lady!" -Darkness, "Legend"

Top
#29244 - 03/01/04 05:30 PM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Doubt yourself. It is a good thing.

The question is not "Am I still a Christian?" or "Am I really a Satanist?"

The question, here, is "Who am I?" Everyone is different, and you must look at your individuals thoughts and choose which suits you, instead of looking at the "bigger picture" and throwing a deeply held moral away simply because it may not be Satanic.

You must know yourself before you can really enjoy life.

As for the afterlife: It's name is just, and it has no place here and now.

Top
#29245 - 03/01/04 06:22 PM Re: Previous Indoctrination: Undoing the Damage [Re: Moria]
SilverHammer Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 1758
Loc: Connecticut
Although its usefulness is limited, ritualized blasphemy can be a very powerful tool for destroying past orthodoxies. I suggest reading the Satanic Baptism, La Messe Noir, and L'Air Epais in The Satanic Rituals. If those texts give you the inspiration, develop and perform a personal rite that smashes the sacred cows of your upbringing, and affirms you as a proud Satanist. Keep in mind that this may not work for everyone, but you may be surprised by how much more free it makes you feel.
_________________________
Some boys grow up into men who can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning, and others just go along with the crowd, forgetting after a while that they ever had a choice. ---Roger Ebert

www.myspace.com/savagegod

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Forum Stats
12163 Members
73 Forums
43922 Topics
405747 Posts

Max Online: 197 @ 10/04/11 06:49 AM
Advertisements