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#292739 - 12/23/07 11:09 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Dave_C Offline


Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 59
Loc: North-East Wisconsin
People have been going round and round about checking out the club you would join which is prudent. However would it not be a greater challenge and far more rewarding (at least in my eyes) to start a bike club of your own, perhaps with some of your buddies. If you are qualified and have the drive to maintain such a group, especially if it grew to a good size; To me by starting your own you dictate requirements for entry, you decide what your own "colors" will be, and what type of presence you will hold in the community in which you live.
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#292741 - 12/23/07 11:23 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
HLGwyn Offline


Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 128
Loc: Colorado
Hello Goat,

I have had many years of experience around MC's and I am friends with quite a few 1% club members. I was offered a "no prospect" entrance into a local support club and later offered a sponsorship to become a prospect for the main club.

I declined both.

First and Foremost: Even though the individual who joins the club and those who are his "brothers" might not engage in illegal activities...the government is constantly monitoring the activities of the members due to some incidents that have revolved around club members in the past (You must realize that the perception of most organized 1% clubs is based on an OUTLAW image and philosophy). I am sure you are aware of this fact. Even going to some parties and funerals as a civilian, I have had my photo taken and my licemce plate info logged by agents who keep tabs on these groups. Not a REAL problem for myself...but the severe interest from Federal Agents leaves me pondering some issues.

Secondly: Once you become a member of the club and fly their Colors, you cease to be an individual and are expected to honor the Club, it's colors and your brothers above levels of merit. This means that even if you do not care for the actions of one or a few, you are expected to lend your support without question or hesitation. If you prove your intentions to be your own at the sake of the club, you will have the patch on your back removed....usually this involves cutting it off while you are held down. So much for brotherhood.

Now, mind you...I am not stating that all aspects of club life are bad nor am I stating that all activity done by clubs are based on criminal intent. That would not be entirely true.

But I am stating that by joining a club you PLACE yourself at the mercy of many elements that can and will affect you. That is what I find UNSATANIC about joining such orginizations.

So, when I was offered what I was, I was honored to be considered the right stuff for such considerations....BUT...

Looking right in the eyes of the Club Prez. I stated that I have only one method of loyalty and that is to honor those who show themselves worthy by their actions towards myself, not their Patch Colors or rank. I flat out enjoy being an individual who can go and do almost anything. As an example I mentioned a rival club that had been causing some havok and I mentioned one member who's company I enjoy...I flat out stated that I could care less about club policy as I was not a member and I would ride with my friend whenever I wanted to. Had I been a member of the club that would not have been possible....well, not without some problems involving my face and a few knuckles.

So...is it Satanic to join a group that expects loyalty regardless of merit and that sometimes is associated with criminal activity? I do not think so.

Try to enjoy yourself and realize that you do not have to be a member to enjoy the company of a few solid 1% Club members, to go to their parties, to ride with them and etc. You might not be a brother, but if you are honest and have a spine, they will respect you and truly be your friend on a merit based sense of respect rather than a patch.

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#292744 - 12/23/07 11:33 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: HiddenHorror]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I guess it depends, then, on how deep the stigma flows.

If people point and whisper, that's one thing, but if it's very likely other people will try to kill or arrest you, and you'll scarcely have a moment's peace, that's another.

It's all about cost-benefit analysis.
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#292745 - 12/23/07 11:33 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: London]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
That's awful! No one should be "harassed" by the police.

If the police have a case against someone they believe have violated the law, they should make it, if not, they should leave people alone.

Unfortunately, the law enforcement community has developed the idea they can prevent crime or gather intelligence by "hassling" people they believe are involved in criminal activity but cannot prove.

All they really end up accomplishing is violating people's rights and creating a poor impression of their department in their community, which in the end, retards their efforts to protect the community.

As voting/tax paying members of our communities we should not allow this.

It's not always the case with all police officers though. Last winter my club president was riding through town (riding under teh influence of alcohol, btw) and as he rode past the mall, he noticed 4-6 police cars parked in the mall parking lot with many uniformed officers gathered around, like they were huddling or discussing something. He took note and continued riding...

The next thing he knew, there were red lights in his mirror. When he pulled over, there were three motorcycle cops approaching him. He began to worry he was about to get jammed up for something, possibly DUI. When the cops made contact with him they said they wanted to apologize for missing our toy run and they pledged to be there next year... They each shook his hand and released him.

So just like all other groups of people, there are idiots and there are cool, reasonable people among them... Motorcycle clubs, satanists, and police officers included.
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#292746 - 12/23/07 11:36 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Well, personally, I guess my answer has changed from yes, to no.

If this group engages in illegal activity, you are a target, involved or not. Keep that in mind.

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#292751 - 12/23/07 11:44 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Goat
VonDeth and verszou: Yes, the Ricco laws are something to consider. In my opinion they are bullshit and unconstitutional, yet they exist and are something that must be delt with.


So, it seems your mind was already made up before making your post, and you merely wanted somebody to be "the devils advocate" so to speak.

I'd advise you though to be very careful about making comparisons between Church of Satan and motorcycle clubs. There are well known documented cases of members of motorcycle clubs being involved in criminal activities. On the other hand, Church of Satan has not to my knowledge yet had members who have been convicted of criminal activity, nor does it condone being part of such activities. This is a very dangerous area and I advise caution in what you choose to say in comparison of the two.
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#292752 - 12/23/07 11:48 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Dave_C]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Hi Dave_C. That's a great suggestion and I really appreciate it.

To be honest with you I've thought about that. As a natural leader, it would be easy for me to do, and would probably say something about my talents for leadership, club organization/administration, etc... At one point I even considered starting/organizing a local satanic club so that I could socialize with like minded people who also reject the herd.

But just as the CoS wouldn't be very happy about a new satanic organization competing with them, MC's, especially 1%er clubs are very unfriendly toward new clubs, and while the CoS wont go to war with you for setting up shop, your local 1%er club likely will if you don't have their permission.

Ofcourse if I had enough people lined up, I could probably go through the process of getting permission from the local 1% club, but then you're not making all of your own decisions anymore when you go that route...

And why would I try to re-invent the wheel when joining the CoS will accomplish the same goals as starting my own group, with less trouble and will provide more infastructure, more lessons learned, and a tested/proven organization to be affiliated with? I feel the same applies to starting a new club. There are some great clubs out there full of really solid brothers, so instead of starting my own I should probably join theirs.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292756 - 12/23/07 11:54 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Wearing colors is like wearing a uniform. As far as law enforcement is concerned, if 10% of people wearing a club patch are running guns, drugs, and "white slave girls" they aren't going to cut much slack to the other 90% who want to dress up for "notoriety by association."

You know the origin of the "1%" label right? It referred to the 1% of motorcycle clubs that were engaged in criminal lifestyles.

How things "should" or "ought to" be don't mean shit. How things ARE is all that matters when they start kicking doors in with warrants and seizing property.

What you imagine to be association for self-preservation can be self-defeating.

As far as the Church of Satan is concerned, we don't need the criminal connotations.

The Church of Satan follows a hard-line Law & Order philosophy.

Don't expect to be met with enthusiasm when you announce or wear a T-shirt that says "I belong to the fraternal order of drug-runners and methamphetamine manufacturers."
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"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder. -- Benito Mussolini
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#292757 - 12/23/07 11:55 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
 Originally Posted By: Goat

But just as the CoS wouldn't be very happy about a new satanic organization competing with them, MC's, especially 1%er clubs are very unfriendly toward new clubs, and while the CoS wont go to war with you for setting up shop, your local 1%er club likely will if you don't have their permission.



Unlike the "MC's" on the other hand, the CoS would not approve of any kind of criminal behaviour; indeed, it would be more than happy to aid the police in the arrest of such perpetrators. Taking verzou's advice regarding this matter would be wise. You don't have to choose between your MC and the CoS. Last I checked, MC's are not a religion.

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#292761 - 12/23/07 12:00 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Goat
So just like all other groups of people, there are idiots and there are cool, reasonable people among them... Motorcycle clubs, satanists, and police officers included.


Indeed - in my youth I did some college radio covering certain aspects of the previous "biker war" which at the time lead to to murder of two prominent members of rivals to Hells Angels and a book on the subject by one of their members who later did a lengthy prison sentence for the murder of the head of a rival gang (lengthy by Danish standards that is).
At the time I met up with both the editor of the bio of this killer and several members of the local Hells Angels chapter who were organizing a heavy metal concert in the center of Copenhagen. They were all very nice and polite people who were very forthcoming in granting me interviews.
But in the end, years later these very nice and reasonable people still were subject to police investigations and some of them were convicted of crimes.
Presently it seems they are now at war with groups of immigrants and various groups of eastern European immigrants (note this is a matter or rumors about current affairs, the convictions and investigations mentioned earlier is not). Personally I prefer the bikers since they seem less ruthless in their methods - but that kind of personal preference is sort of useless because all of them are performing illegal acts and should be judged as such.
If you've ever read "The Godfather" notice how often Don Corleone talks about being reasonable \:\)
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#292763 - 12/23/07 12:01 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: verszou]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Verszou, that is a very good observation on your part. I was interested in hearing everyone's ideas on the subject, but particularly interested in hearing from someone like HLGwyn, who might be able to challenge me and help me in my self-re-examination of what I really want and what the potential benefits and consequences are/may be.

I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to make any comparisons between the CoS and any other organization. That was not my intent. There is no comparison between the CoS and ANY other organization.

I was trying to compare the logic used in a particular description of motorcycle clubs in general to the same logic used by ignorant people to describe what we all have in common. I hope my elementary/intermediate command of the English language has been suffecient to describe my intent to you and clear up any misunderstanding that I may be responsible for.

I hope you have a great weekend!
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292764 - 12/23/07 12:10 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Goat
I was trying to compare the logic used in a particular description of motorcycle clubs in general to the same logic used by ignorant people to describe what we all have in common.


I see your point and to some degree I agree that the motorcycle clubs are in some cases being treated unfairly. Also as a result of this "biker war" which I described earlier, certain laws were passed which aledgedly would help fight the war, but later on they have been used to target both soccer fans and political activists as well, which clearly wasn't the intention originally.
So there are reasons to be vigilant, as some local civil rights advocates have pointed out, that we don't let the unlawful activities of a small group of people affect what society as a whole deems acceptable.
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While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#292765 - 12/23/07 12:10 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
 Originally Posted By: Goat


It's not always the case with all police officers though. Last winter my club president was riding through town (riding under teh influence of alcohol, btw) and as he rode past the mall, he noticed 4-6 police cars parked in the mall parking lot with many uniformed officers gathered around, like they were huddling or discussing something. He took note and continued riding...

The next thing he knew, there were red lights in his mirror. When he pulled over, there were three motorcycle cops approaching him. He began to worry he was about to get jammed up for something, possibly DUI. When the cops made contact with him they said they wanted to apologize for missing our toy run and they pledged to be there next year... They each shook his hand and released him.

[u][/u]

There you go...driving under the influence of ANYTHING should be punished the HARD and EFFECTIVE way.
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#292766 - 12/23/07 12:12 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: TheDegenerate]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Lol. Yes I was not worried about having to choose between the two, but your comments do bring up an interesting question.

>>>the CoS would not approve of any kind of criminal behaviour

--->It's my understanding the CoS doesn't sanction or choose to not sanction any kind of specific behavior, other than to provide general guidelines about the way members should typically act (which is very general and certainly doesn't cover all, or even most situations). Am I incorrect about this?

I have always pictured the CoS specifically, and satanists generally, as people who try hard to obey the law when they can, willing to work to change bad laws if the situation called for it, but were willing to break the law if necessary when the law conflicted with a satanists own personal values.

Is this not an accurate description of the perspective of a good number of satanists? I know the law and obeying the law as much as possible is important to satanists, as it is to me... But I am an individual first and a member of my community second, and when it comes down right down to it I serve myself first, and I always thought most/many satanists had a similar point of view, but my access to other satanists has been very limited so I'm interested in learning how you all feel about this.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292767 - 12/23/07 12:15 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: x9x]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
I totally agree with that. I would not personally drive under the influence of any intoxicating substance.

Once again I am not inclined to take responsiblity for the poor decisions of others.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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