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#292623 - 12/22/07 10:33 PM Motorcycle Clubs
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
I've been wondering how satanists feel about clubs in general, and motorcycle clubs specifically.

I have an intense desire to join a motorcycle club (a particular club, mind you), and I've been wondering how "satanic" it would or would not be for me to do so.

I understand satanists by nature are not joiners, and I am normally not either... But a motorcycle club is an entirely different animal than most other clubs/activities one could join.

I don't believe my desire to be a member of this club is an indication of the herd mentality creeping in. On the contrary, I think affiliating myself with like minded brothers in order to work together toward specific common purposes can help each of us attain our goals more effectively, which seems totally satanic to me.

I was curious if anyone here has ever had any exposure to motorcycle clubs (1%er clubs and their support clubs) and if so, what input you might have. Thanks.


Edited by Goat (12/22/07 10:41 PM)
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292627 - 12/22/07 10:52 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
I've never been one to join clubs. Although I have on occasion seen a few car shows. It can be fun to take a look at the restored classics and do a time warp. I can see the benefits of such clubs as it would bring together people with the same interests.
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#292630 - 12/22/07 11:00 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: TheNaturalForce]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
As long as whatever clubs you are joining are not breaking the laws, then I can't see there being a single issue. If it is something you would enjoy, go for it!

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#292650 - 12/23/07 02:12 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: TheDegenerate]
AztecRed Offline


Registered: 05/28/07
Posts: 65
Loc: Oklahoma
Herd mentality only applies when you're joining a herd as a result of an insecurity of some sort. If you're joining a club because it's actually going to benefit you in some way outside of "I just want to belong", then I see nothing unsatanic about it.

I've been a member of a few car clubs and from my own personal experience, I can say that even in the "herd" I still felt like an outsider. A lot of car clubs are as bad as churches with the politics and rivalries. I stayed away from those aspects and just enjoyed the discounted parts and track days.
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#292654 - 12/23/07 02:45 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
It's not a secret that most 1% and their support clubs are involved in criminal activities. What kind of club are you talking about actually?
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#292657 - 12/23/07 03:09 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Why not just do what is best for you?

If you need "brothers" to run around with and you enjoy the feeling of acceptance, just do it. It should be your choice.

I've ridden with a motorcycle club before but I'd never do what ever it is people do to become a member. I like to ride and get what I want from just doing that with no need for brotherhood, acceptance or identity.

Are you having a tough time making this decision on your own?

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#292671 - 12/23/07 03:49 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Lord Xolothi Offline


Registered: 09/25/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Italia
Well
The Satanism is based on the free choise and on the personal freedom,but also on the personal responsability.
You know what do you want do it,nobody know best of you the answer at this question,if you ardently desire to join in an Motorcycle Club,well,DO IT
The Satanists for nature are not joiners,this is relative.In some istances the Satanist can decide to join in an group of whatever sort or club or other like means for accomplish their personal scopes.
Now the true question which you must to give to yourself is:
Because i want to join in this Club?
What are my personal Objective?
Joining in this Club I can really accomplish my desire
And in especially way:
It this case,the end justify really the means?
You must evalutate also if the game is worth the candle.
The choices is yours

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#292682 - 12/23/07 05:47 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Colonel Kurtz Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 192
 Originally Posted By: Goat
I was curious if anyone here has ever had any exposure to motorcycle clubs (1%er clubs and their support clubs) and if so, what input you might have. Thanks.


Simply being a "Known Associate" or a "Hang Around" the Police view you to be in collusion. Your name will be found on the Police "Gang List" and you'll be treated as a criminal. Weather you are or not!

The two major clubs in California are still at war with each other. People are still being murdered. These clubs are still active in the drug trade. This is all very attractive to the young street tough asshole. If you want this kind of association, feel free.

Not all members are criminals, but plenty are. You'll be painted with those same colors. All for a vest.





Edited by VonDeth (12/23/07 10:40 AM)

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#292685 - 12/23/07 06:16 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Colonel Kurtz]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: VonDeth
The two major clubs in California are still at war with each other.


We have had the same thing going on over here some years ago. At the height of the escalating event known as the "biker war" one group tried to take out the headquarters of the other with a rocket launcher. This happened while there was some sort of party going on, but by sheer luck the damage was minimal.

But afterwards a lot of those "civilians" present there were in shock because they somehow thought that not being criminals or members would make them immune to anything that was going on.

These days police seems to be using the "Al Capone" method in getting to criminals who belong to motorcycle clubs, so one should probably also factor in the added attention of the IRS when joining up. Which of course is no problem if you always pay your taxes and never make any mistakes when filing. Using lesser magic to get a really good deal on a car or a new TV may suddenly look like something else if people you associate with are known to launder drug money.
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#292695 - 12/23/07 08:00 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Leo_V Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 517
Loc: Cleveland
I have always felt that riding in a group is safer because a group of bikes is more visible than one.

Simple logic.

Keep in mind that you must ride as an individual for your own protection anyway, group or not.

I will ride with friends or veteran groups on certain holidays or parades but never be a "vest wearer" again.

It is also my opinion that motorcycle clubs aren't different from other clubs, as you have said.

Care to share the name of this particular club?
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#292721 - 12/23/07 10:00 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
I like your avatar.

Groups and clubs can allow us to delve deeper into certain topics or hobbies than we could by ourselves. Other people can teach us more about a given subject, and can help us to hone our skills--and we, in turn, can do that for others, and this can provide a profound sense of satisfaction.

I can't even ride a bike, so motorcycles are out for me. (Unless they have a motorcycle with training wheels ;\) ).

You must ensure that the club you are joining is not a criminal organization, and that you are not going to arouse the suspicions or prejudices--warranted or unwarranted--of the authorities or other clubs.
_________________________
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"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#292733 - 12/23/07 10:52 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: TrojZyr]
HiddenHorror Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 54
Loc: USA
I own a bike, and just by owning a Harley I am more or less seen as a "Biker Gang" member. I don't have any affiliations with any riders groups, but I do ride for fun and I participate in some of the charity rides.

I guess my point, that I've taken such a roundabout way to getting to is...

You don't have to be an actual member of a gang to be pegged as one. Although it will bring back a good deal of trouble from the authorities and the general population, the image is classic lesser magic. You just have to accept the stigma for enjoying the feeling of freedom and power only a bike can provide.
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Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror. -- François-Marie Arouet (Voltaire)

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#292735 - 12/23/07 10:54 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: verszou]
Colonel Kurtz Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 192
These days police seems to be using the "Al Capone" method in getting to criminals who belong to motorcycle clubs...

Because of TV exposure, juries tend to be sympathetic to Bikers. At least to the whole "Criminal Organization" thing. I have plenty of experience with 1% MC'S or "Outlaw Bikers". These clubs are top heavy with criminals, but the mob, it's not.

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#292737 - 12/23/07 11:01 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Colonel Kurtz]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Thank you all for your terrific feedback.

Phosis: Frequently members of motorcycle clubs do break the law, but the way I see it is I'm only responsible for my own actions (not those of anyone else), and as long as my actions are in line with my values, I'm ok.

Aztec Red: I'm really glad to hear you say that. That's how I have felt, but was hoping to find out if other satanists agree with that view point, or if my viewpoint was predominantly seen as "unsatanic."

x9x: I don't think it's accurate to say "most 1% clubs and their support clubs are involved in criminal activities," anymore than it's accurate to say "it's no secret satanists participate in animal sacrafice and satanic ritual abuse."

Surely there are wierdos and wackos who call theirselves satanists who probably do all sorts of things, but anyone who really knows anything about Satanism knows that's not an accurate description of the CoS or most people who consider theirselves Satanists. I've found that's very similar (to a lesser extent) with motorcycle clubs.

Like most people, I had some pretty crazy misconceptions about MC's before I became a "known associate" of the club I eventually propsected for and became a member of. As a known associate, I got to know the club (as much as an outsider can) and it's members and realized they are nothing like what I had heard/read/previously thought. Then, when I became a member myself, they were very clear about the rules. They told me upfront...

1. We will never ask you to do anything that jeapordizes you legally, financially, or jeapordizes your family or your relationship with your family.
2. You will not consume any drugs that you cannot grow yourself and smoke. If you're caught, you're out in bad standing. They said that goes for your old lady also. Her drug use can get you thrown out of the club also. They were very serious and very strict about this rule. I was really impressed with that.

Granted, some clubs are still involved in criminal activities, and many members are involved in criminal activities, but some of the clubs have really smartened up and have realized that in order to survive, they must obey the law (as much as possible) and they must contribute something positive to their communities. Infact, most serious motorcycle clubs (like red and white clubs and red and gold clubs and their support clubs) are very polite when they encounter members of the larger public. I was in a bar last weekend and there was a club there I had never seen before. One of the members walked past where I was seated and stepped on my foot as he walked by. He abruptly stopped and turned around (which put me on guard because this club was unknown to me) and in a very sincere tone he apologized. He did that because it's important to him the public generally has a positive image in mind when they hear of or think of their club. Essentially the clubs have almost learned they have to practice lesser magic, to a much lesser extent, in order to change perceptions of them in their communities in order to survive.

RandomStranger: No, I'm not having a difficult time making this decision. My decision has been made. I'm just really curious what other satanists have to say on the topic. Joining this message board is really my first contact with other "serious" satanists, and while I make and am responsible for my own decisions, it doesn't hurt to hear input from people you trust/respect while making your decisions. Granted I don't know anyone of you, let alone know you well enough to really trust you, but I still value the input, and am intelligent enough to evaluate the merits of the input myself without necessarily having to really trust you. The fact that you are satanists is enough to initially earn quite a bit of respect from me and my trust that you are going to give me sincere feedback, or none at all, so I'm fortunate to receive any feedback any of you feel inclined to provide.

VonDeth and verszou: Yes, the Ricco laws are something to consider. In my opinion they are bullshit and unconstitutional, yet they exist and are something that must be delt with. I don't think I would ever be in danger of a ricco prosecution though, because those laws are normally used to bring down leaders of organizations and key players, and I can't imagine I would be either in a MC. Not because I don't have leadership skills/qualities or because I wouldn't step up if I were needed, but because even in MC's those positions are esteamed and really political and I'm not much of a politician.

I've been trying hard to work on my political skills because I see that as my only weakness when engaging in lesser magic, but even as I improve those skills I find engaging in politics to be very distasteful.

When it comes to being "painted with those same colors," I really don't care what people think of me (unless ofcourse the person being discussed is a target of lesser magic). I do my own thing in my own time regardless of what anyone thinks of me. This causes alot of the sheep to dislike me but some people recognize the strength and indpendence that I posess and view them as admirable qualities. Regardless of what they think, people's perception of me is not one of my motivators.

There are three main motivators in my life...

1. Squeezing every drop of pleasure out of my life as possible before it ends.
2. Increasing my position in the world as much as I can, while I still can.
3. Protecting and serving the interests/needs of myself, and those I love/care about.

Leo_V: Unfortunately I don't think it's appropriate to drop club names around, especially in a pseudo-anonymous forum, so I'd rather not, and I hope that doesn't seem offensive to you. I will tell you the club I'm interested in joining is not a "territorial" club, they are nationwide, and are one of the oldest, most well known clubs in existance. That much info will probably tell you exactly who it is if you know anything about MC's, lol.

One of the things that I love about motorcycle clubs is they very satanic in many ways, they just don't realize it. I really enjoy associating, socializing, and working cooperatively with people who share my interests, my values, and my ideas.

In my opinion the only thing better than being a member of a motorcycle club and being a satanist would be to be a member of a satanic motorcycle club, lol. Yeah I know, that'll be the day.

Thank you all for your valuable feedback. I'm really glad I joined this discussion forum.


Edited by Goat (12/23/07 11:19 AM)
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292738 - 12/23/07 11:09 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Colonel Kurtz]
London Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
 Quote:
Simply being a "Known Associate" or a "Hang Around" the Police view you to be in collusion. Your name will be found on the Police "Gang List" and you'll be treated as a criminal. Weather you are or not!


Yes, this is not to be underestimated. I have a neighbor who is currently experiencing police harassment due to the fact that he lives next to a Bandido and rides motorcycles. He is the furthest thing from a trouble-maker possible, but the local Sheriffs are convinced he is a Bandido as well and do eveything possible to make life Hell for him.
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If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then using logic I can deduce that the friend of my friend is my enemy.

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#292739 - 12/23/07 11:09 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Dave_C Offline


Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 59
Loc: North-East Wisconsin
People have been going round and round about checking out the club you would join which is prudent. However would it not be a greater challenge and far more rewarding (at least in my eyes) to start a bike club of your own, perhaps with some of your buddies. If you are qualified and have the drive to maintain such a group, especially if it grew to a good size; To me by starting your own you dictate requirements for entry, you decide what your own "colors" will be, and what type of presence you will hold in the community in which you live.
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#292741 - 12/23/07 11:23 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
HLGwyn Offline


Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 128
Loc: Colorado
Hello Goat,

I have had many years of experience around MC's and I am friends with quite a few 1% club members. I was offered a "no prospect" entrance into a local support club and later offered a sponsorship to become a prospect for the main club.

I declined both.

First and Foremost: Even though the individual who joins the club and those who are his "brothers" might not engage in illegal activities...the government is constantly monitoring the activities of the members due to some incidents that have revolved around club members in the past (You must realize that the perception of most organized 1% clubs is based on an OUTLAW image and philosophy). I am sure you are aware of this fact. Even going to some parties and funerals as a civilian, I have had my photo taken and my licemce plate info logged by agents who keep tabs on these groups. Not a REAL problem for myself...but the severe interest from Federal Agents leaves me pondering some issues.

Secondly: Once you become a member of the club and fly their Colors, you cease to be an individual and are expected to honor the Club, it's colors and your brothers above levels of merit. This means that even if you do not care for the actions of one or a few, you are expected to lend your support without question or hesitation. If you prove your intentions to be your own at the sake of the club, you will have the patch on your back removed....usually this involves cutting it off while you are held down. So much for brotherhood.

Now, mind you...I am not stating that all aspects of club life are bad nor am I stating that all activity done by clubs are based on criminal intent. That would not be entirely true.

But I am stating that by joining a club you PLACE yourself at the mercy of many elements that can and will affect you. That is what I find UNSATANIC about joining such orginizations.

So, when I was offered what I was, I was honored to be considered the right stuff for such considerations....BUT...

Looking right in the eyes of the Club Prez. I stated that I have only one method of loyalty and that is to honor those who show themselves worthy by their actions towards myself, not their Patch Colors or rank. I flat out enjoy being an individual who can go and do almost anything. As an example I mentioned a rival club that had been causing some havok and I mentioned one member who's company I enjoy...I flat out stated that I could care less about club policy as I was not a member and I would ride with my friend whenever I wanted to. Had I been a member of the club that would not have been possible....well, not without some problems involving my face and a few knuckles.

So...is it Satanic to join a group that expects loyalty regardless of merit and that sometimes is associated with criminal activity? I do not think so.

Try to enjoy yourself and realize that you do not have to be a member to enjoy the company of a few solid 1% Club members, to go to their parties, to ride with them and etc. You might not be a brother, but if you are honest and have a spine, they will respect you and truly be your friend on a merit based sense of respect rather than a patch.

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#292744 - 12/23/07 11:33 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: HiddenHorror]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
I guess it depends, then, on how deep the stigma flows.

If people point and whisper, that's one thing, but if it's very likely other people will try to kill or arrest you, and you'll scarcely have a moment's peace, that's another.

It's all about cost-benefit analysis.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#292745 - 12/23/07 11:33 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: London]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
That's awful! No one should be "harassed" by the police.

If the police have a case against someone they believe have violated the law, they should make it, if not, they should leave people alone.

Unfortunately, the law enforcement community has developed the idea they can prevent crime or gather intelligence by "hassling" people they believe are involved in criminal activity but cannot prove.

All they really end up accomplishing is violating people's rights and creating a poor impression of their department in their community, which in the end, retards their efforts to protect the community.

As voting/tax paying members of our communities we should not allow this.

It's not always the case with all police officers though. Last winter my club president was riding through town (riding under teh influence of alcohol, btw) and as he rode past the mall, he noticed 4-6 police cars parked in the mall parking lot with many uniformed officers gathered around, like they were huddling or discussing something. He took note and continued riding...

The next thing he knew, there were red lights in his mirror. When he pulled over, there were three motorcycle cops approaching him. He began to worry he was about to get jammed up for something, possibly DUI. When the cops made contact with him they said they wanted to apologize for missing our toy run and they pledged to be there next year... They each shook his hand and released him.

So just like all other groups of people, there are idiots and there are cool, reasonable people among them... Motorcycle clubs, satanists, and police officers included.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292746 - 12/23/07 11:36 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Well, personally, I guess my answer has changed from yes, to no.

If this group engages in illegal activity, you are a target, involved or not. Keep that in mind.

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#292751 - 12/23/07 11:44 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Goat
VonDeth and verszou: Yes, the Ricco laws are something to consider. In my opinion they are bullshit and unconstitutional, yet they exist and are something that must be delt with.


So, it seems your mind was already made up before making your post, and you merely wanted somebody to be "the devils advocate" so to speak.

I'd advise you though to be very careful about making comparisons between Church of Satan and motorcycle clubs. There are well known documented cases of members of motorcycle clubs being involved in criminal activities. On the other hand, Church of Satan has not to my knowledge yet had members who have been convicted of criminal activity, nor does it condone being part of such activities. This is a very dangerous area and I advise caution in what you choose to say in comparison of the two.
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#292752 - 12/23/07 11:48 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Dave_C]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Hi Dave_C. That's a great suggestion and I really appreciate it.

To be honest with you I've thought about that. As a natural leader, it would be easy for me to do, and would probably say something about my talents for leadership, club organization/administration, etc... At one point I even considered starting/organizing a local satanic club so that I could socialize with like minded people who also reject the herd.

But just as the CoS wouldn't be very happy about a new satanic organization competing with them, MC's, especially 1%er clubs are very unfriendly toward new clubs, and while the CoS wont go to war with you for setting up shop, your local 1%er club likely will if you don't have their permission.

Ofcourse if I had enough people lined up, I could probably go through the process of getting permission from the local 1% club, but then you're not making all of your own decisions anymore when you go that route...

And why would I try to re-invent the wheel when joining the CoS will accomplish the same goals as starting my own group, with less trouble and will provide more infastructure, more lessons learned, and a tested/proven organization to be affiliated with? I feel the same applies to starting a new club. There are some great clubs out there full of really solid brothers, so instead of starting my own I should probably join theirs.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292756 - 12/23/07 11:54 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
Wearing colors is like wearing a uniform. As far as law enforcement is concerned, if 10% of people wearing a club patch are running guns, drugs, and "white slave girls" they aren't going to cut much slack to the other 90% who want to dress up for "notoriety by association."

You know the origin of the "1%" label right? It referred to the 1% of motorcycle clubs that were engaged in criminal lifestyles.

How things "should" or "ought to" be don't mean shit. How things ARE is all that matters when they start kicking doors in with warrants and seizing property.

What you imagine to be association for self-preservation can be self-defeating.

As far as the Church of Satan is concerned, we don't need the criminal connotations.

The Church of Satan follows a hard-line Law & Order philosophy.

Don't expect to be met with enthusiasm when you announce or wear a T-shirt that says "I belong to the fraternal order of drug-runners and methamphetamine manufacturers."
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Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
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"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
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#292757 - 12/23/07 11:55 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
 Originally Posted By: Goat

But just as the CoS wouldn't be very happy about a new satanic organization competing with them, MC's, especially 1%er clubs are very unfriendly toward new clubs, and while the CoS wont go to war with you for setting up shop, your local 1%er club likely will if you don't have their permission.



Unlike the "MC's" on the other hand, the CoS would not approve of any kind of criminal behaviour; indeed, it would be more than happy to aid the police in the arrest of such perpetrators. Taking verzou's advice regarding this matter would be wise. You don't have to choose between your MC and the CoS. Last I checked, MC's are not a religion.

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#292761 - 12/23/07 12:00 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Goat
So just like all other groups of people, there are idiots and there are cool, reasonable people among them... Motorcycle clubs, satanists, and police officers included.


Indeed - in my youth I did some college radio covering certain aspects of the previous "biker war" which at the time lead to to murder of two prominent members of rivals to Hells Angels and a book on the subject by one of their members who later did a lengthy prison sentence for the murder of the head of a rival gang (lengthy by Danish standards that is).
At the time I met up with both the editor of the bio of this killer and several members of the local Hells Angels chapter who were organizing a heavy metal concert in the center of Copenhagen. They were all very nice and polite people who were very forthcoming in granting me interviews.
But in the end, years later these very nice and reasonable people still were subject to police investigations and some of them were convicted of crimes.
Presently it seems they are now at war with groups of immigrants and various groups of eastern European immigrants (note this is a matter or rumors about current affairs, the convictions and investigations mentioned earlier is not). Personally I prefer the bikers since they seem less ruthless in their methods - but that kind of personal preference is sort of useless because all of them are performing illegal acts and should be judged as such.
If you've ever read "The Godfather" notice how often Don Corleone talks about being reasonable \:\)
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#292763 - 12/23/07 12:01 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: verszou]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Verszou, that is a very good observation on your part. I was interested in hearing everyone's ideas on the subject, but particularly interested in hearing from someone like HLGwyn, who might be able to challenge me and help me in my self-re-examination of what I really want and what the potential benefits and consequences are/may be.

I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to make any comparisons between the CoS and any other organization. That was not my intent. There is no comparison between the CoS and ANY other organization.

I was trying to compare the logic used in a particular description of motorcycle clubs in general to the same logic used by ignorant people to describe what we all have in common. I hope my elementary/intermediate command of the English language has been suffecient to describe my intent to you and clear up any misunderstanding that I may be responsible for.

I hope you have a great weekend!
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292764 - 12/23/07 12:10 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1812
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Goat
I was trying to compare the logic used in a particular description of motorcycle clubs in general to the same logic used by ignorant people to describe what we all have in common.


I see your point and to some degree I agree that the motorcycle clubs are in some cases being treated unfairly. Also as a result of this "biker war" which I described earlier, certain laws were passed which aledgedly would help fight the war, but later on they have been used to target both soccer fans and political activists as well, which clearly wasn't the intention originally.
So there are reasons to be vigilant, as some local civil rights advocates have pointed out, that we don't let the unlawful activities of a small group of people affect what society as a whole deems acceptable.
_________________________
While having never invented a sin, I'm trying to perfect several.

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#292765 - 12/23/07 12:10 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
 Originally Posted By: Goat


It's not always the case with all police officers though. Last winter my club president was riding through town (riding under teh influence of alcohol, btw) and as he rode past the mall, he noticed 4-6 police cars parked in the mall parking lot with many uniformed officers gathered around, like they were huddling or discussing something. He took note and continued riding...

The next thing he knew, there were red lights in his mirror. When he pulled over, there were three motorcycle cops approaching him. He began to worry he was about to get jammed up for something, possibly DUI. When the cops made contact with him they said they wanted to apologize for missing our toy run and they pledged to be there next year... They each shook his hand and released him.

[u][/u]

There you go...driving under the influence of ANYTHING should be punished the HARD and EFFECTIVE way.
_________________________
He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog.
||.TSB Page 33.||

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.
|| Benjamin Franklin ||

The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|| George Bernard ||



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#292766 - 12/23/07 12:12 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: TheDegenerate]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Lol. Yes I was not worried about having to choose between the two, but your comments do bring up an interesting question.

>>>the CoS would not approve of any kind of criminal behaviour

--->It's my understanding the CoS doesn't sanction or choose to not sanction any kind of specific behavior, other than to provide general guidelines about the way members should typically act (which is very general and certainly doesn't cover all, or even most situations). Am I incorrect about this?

I have always pictured the CoS specifically, and satanists generally, as people who try hard to obey the law when they can, willing to work to change bad laws if the situation called for it, but were willing to break the law if necessary when the law conflicted with a satanists own personal values.

Is this not an accurate description of the perspective of a good number of satanists? I know the law and obeying the law as much as possible is important to satanists, as it is to me... But I am an individual first and a member of my community second, and when it comes down right down to it I serve myself first, and I always thought most/many satanists had a similar point of view, but my access to other satanists has been very limited so I'm interested in learning how you all feel about this.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292767 - 12/23/07 12:15 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: x9x]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
I totally agree with that. I would not personally drive under the influence of any intoxicating substance.

Once again I am not inclined to take responsiblity for the poor decisions of others.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292770 - 12/23/07 12:19 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Svengali]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
>>>How things "should" or "ought to" be don't mean shit.

--->As a young man, I had to learn that lesson the hard way, and I can assure you, it wasn't an easy lesson for me to learn (I can be pretty dam stubborn, sometimes that's good for me, in this case it wasn't, lol).

I totally agree with that statement, and I have found MC's understand that as well. Generally speaking, they also believe in stratification and survival of the fittest/smartest, even though they don't use those terms like you or I would.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292772 - 12/23/07 12:23 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Goat
Lol. Yes I was not worried about having to choose between the two, but your comments do bring up an interesting question.

>>>the CoS would not approve of any kind of criminal behaviour

--->It's my understanding the CoS doesn't sanction or choose to not sanction any kind of specific behavior, other than to provide general guidelines about the way members should typically act (which is very general and certainly doesn't cover all, or even most situations). Am I incorrect about this?

I have always pictured the CoS specifically, and satanists generally, as people who try hard to obey the law when they can, willing to work to change bad laws if the situation called for it, but were willing to break the law if necessary when the law conflicted with a satanists own personal values.

Is this not an accurate description of the perspective of a good number of satanists? I know the law and obeying the law as much as possible is important to satanists, as it is to me... But I am an individual first and a member of my community second, and when it comes down right down to it I serve myself first, and I always thought most/many satanists had a similar point of view, but my access to other satanists has been very limited so I'm interested in learning how you all feel about this.


You are INCORRECT.

The Church of Satan does NOT tolerate or condone ILLEGAL activity.

There is NO middle ground on this.

Splitting hairs on this issue is a fast-track to having your account deleted.

You asked if belonging to a criminal or quasi-criminal organization is compatible with Satanism and the Church of Satan.

The answer is NO.

They are NOT compatible.

Seek mix-and match symbols and fashion statements elsewhere.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#292773 - 12/23/07 12:24 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Svengali]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
>>>What you imagine to be association for self-preservation can be self-defeating.

--->I think I understand the point you're making, and I agree with it.

My goals for joining though really aren't self-preservation, although in a pinch, that could be an added benefit, it isn't something I expect. I expect to have to be able to take care of myself, and so far I've done a pretty good job of it.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292774 - 12/23/07 12:24 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
 Quote:
but were willing to break the law if necessary when the law conflicted with a satanists own personal values.


No.
_________________________
Hell of All Hells

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#292775 - 12/23/07 12:24 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
IRI Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Canada
Stereotypical criminal tendencies aside, as a Satanist you must put your own survival first, and that of course means taking every step possible to avoid any activity (even by association) that would be detrimental to your survival (and freedom).

Having satisfied that, you would do well to always keep in mind that any relationship (whether via a club or a one-on-one situation) must be of mutual benefit to both parties. If only one benefits, it is not a relationship and will be rather short lived. Do what you will to further your own agenda but realize that you must either contribute or give the appearance of contribution if you intend to use the relationship as a resource of personal indulgence.

When you join any group, as a Satanist you join to further your own agenda and as a side benefit, the group will typically benefit. However, once your agenda has been satisfied, you tip your hat, take your bow and graciously exit.

IRI
_________________________
"Sheep to the right, Goats to the left"

"Where do people in Hell tell each other to go?"

"If we are all gods children, why is Christ so special?"

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#292776 - 12/23/07 12:26 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Goat
>>>What you imagine to be association for self-preservation can be self-defeating.

--->I think I understand the point you're making, and I agree with it.

My goals for joining though really aren't self-preservation, although in a pinch, that could be an added benefit, it isn't something I expect. I expect to have to be able to take care of myself, and so far I've done a pretty good job of it.


So basically you are looking for a "tough guy" image? Or an identity prop?

Why not do it on your own.

Why people are impressed with this idiotic bovine gregarious subculture is beyond me.

Biker culture is stupid and aesthetically bankrupt.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#292777 - 12/23/07 12:27 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Svengali]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
>>>Splitting hairs on this issue is a fast-track to having your account deleted.

--->I'm certainly not trying to split hairs. Simply inquiring about your perspective, and if someone in a position to do cares to respond, the position of the CoS.

Thank you for your direct response to my question.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292778 - 12/23/07 12:28 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I just told you the position of the CoS.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#292779 - 12/23/07 12:29 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
Let's make this simple.

Getting together with a bunch of grannies on the weekend to ride motorcycles is one thing, but if you associate with anyone who could in some way be affiliated with GANG activities, then you are a moron and deserve whatever shit you get into.
_________________________
Hell of All Hells

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#292780 - 12/23/07 12:30 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: IRI]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Thank you Iri, I think that is very good advice and it's well taken.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292781 - 12/23/07 12:30 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Svengali]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Indeed. Thank you.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292783 - 12/23/07 12:32 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
LKRice Offline

CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 6346
 Originally Posted By: Goat
Simply inquiring about your perspective, and if someone in a position to do cares to respond, the position of the CoS.


Please note the words "CoS Magister" under Magister Svengali's screenname.
_________________________
Director
Committee for the
Promotion of Vice and
Prevention of Virtue

S Magazine 1 & 2
S Magazine 3

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#292789 - 12/23/07 12:38 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Svengali]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
No, I have nothing to prove to anyone.

That sounds like it might be another stereotype. As such, it might applicable to many bikers, but not to me, because I don't care what most people think of me.

I understand that position is contrary to being successful at lesser magic, and I haven't worked that out yet. The truth is, unless I have found myself to care or respect a person, I really don't care what they think of me.

>>>Biker culture is stupid and aesthetically bankrupt.

--->I do understand why you feel that way. For me it is aesthetically pleasing in many ways, and while there are frequently occasions where I come across things that I dont find pleasing, most of it is at least compatible with, and usually completely in line with who I've become personally as a satanist.

I don't expect you to be able to understand that without my going into tiresome (tiresome for you, not for me, lol) detail, or without you having walked where I have walked, and it doesn't bother me at all if we don't agree on everything, all the time, and I take no offense to the fact there are probably many ways in which we see things differently.

I view that as the real strength of the satanic community and the true weekness of the herd.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292791 - 12/23/07 12:40 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: LKRice]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
I did take note, even before I said that. My implication was toward my intent in making the inquiry, not directed at the answsers received.

Thank you.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292795 - 12/23/07 12:49 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Svengali]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
>>>Seek mix-and match symbols and fashion statements elsewhere.

--->Not to worry, my intent to join a motorcycle club and my desire to associate with fellow satanists have nothing to do with symbols and/or fashion statments.

I do enjoy symbols, but that is a deeply personal thing, and I wouldn't expect those symbols to mean anything to anyone else but me.

And I truly have no use for fashion statements.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292796 - 12/23/07 12:53 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
I grew up around bikers, including some "1%" types, and have lived in Daytona Beach since 1979. You don't need to explain anything about bikers to me. I know more than I want to.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#292798 - 12/23/07 01:04 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: HellofallHells]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Greetings hellofahells, and Hail Satan!

>>>if you associate with anyone who could in some way be affiliated with GANG activities,

--->That's one area of the law that needs to be changed, at least in CA.

CA defines a gang as two or more people who are both invovled in committing a crime. I believe that definition is unconstitutionally broad.

According to that definition, if you're camping with your buddies, consuming alcohol around a campfire that you don't have a permit for, you and your friends are now gang members.

I don't think that's an appropriate enhancement for that crime under those circumstances, but under the law in California that is a likely scenerio.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292806 - 12/23/07 01:28 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Svengali Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 12460
Loc: Florida, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: Goat
Greetings hellofahells, and Hail Satan!

>>>if you associate with anyone who could in some way be affiliated with GANG activities,

--->That's one area of the law that needs to be changed, at least in CA.

CA defines a gang as two or more people who are both invovled in committing a crime. I believe that definition is unconstitutionally broad.

According to that definition, if you're camping with your buddies, consuming alcohol around a campfire that you don't have a permit for, you and your friends are now gang members.

I don't think that's an appropriate enhancement for that crime under those circumstances, but under the law in California that is a likely scenerio.


So you think the Crips, Bloods, MS13 etc. should get a free pass just to avoid the unlikely possibility that two morons making a campfire without a permit don't get tagged as a "gang" ...?

Personally I think they should be rounded up and shot.
_________________________
Live and Let Die.
"If I have to choose between defending the wolf or the dog, I choose the wolf, especially when he is bleeding." -- Jaques Verges
"I may have my faults, but being wrong ain't one of them." -- Jimmy Hoffa
"As for wars, well, there's only been 268 years out of the last 3421 in which there were no wars. So war, too, is in the normal course of events." -- Will Durant.
"Satanism is the worship of life, not a hypocritical, whitewashed vision of life, but life as it really is." -- Anton Szandor LaVey
“A membership ticket in this party does not confer genius on the holder.” -- Benito Mussolini
MY BOOK: ESSAYS IN SATANISM | MY BLOG: COSMODROMIUM | Deep Satanism Blog

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#292807 - 12/23/07 01:34 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Colonel Kurtz Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 192
This has gotten incoherent.

You and your argument are flawed.

Wearing a helmet on the bus to school does not make you a biker.

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#292809 - 12/23/07 01:36 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
HellofallHells Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 3524
I will not discuss this with you any further. You seem to be seeking validation for your desire to join a "club". That or you have an agenda.

You've been given straight forward replies that are easy to understand. Either you get it, or you don't.
_________________________
Hell of All Hells

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#292814 - 12/23/07 01:59 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Svengali]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Absolutely not, but I appreciate the question.

I think the laws should be written and applied to fit the crime. Unfortunately, where I live they frequently are not.

Far too many times people guilty of serious crimes are either allowed to get away with their crimes, or allowed to plead down to a lesser crime, and in some cases, people guilty of smaller crimes are sentenced to punishments that greatly exceed the scope or impact of the crime. In the worst cases, people who aren't guilty at all are punished while the guilty go free.

I think our justice system needs a complete overhaul, but that's a bit off topic so I wont go into more detail on that here.

I'm about to leave for a few days. I hope you all have a wonderful weekend/holiday and I wish you all and your loved ones success in the new year!
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292815 - 12/23/07 02:02 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Colonel Kurtz]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
>>>Wearing a helmet on the bus to school does not make you a biker.

--->You are correct about that, but being a master of the obvious isn't what drew you to satanism....

Please identify what you believe to be flawed about my comments.

I hope you have a wonderful holiday!
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292816 - 12/23/07 02:04 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: HellofallHells]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
>>>I will not discuss this with you any further.

--->Thank you for the discussion with you that you have allowed me \:\)

>>>You seem to be seeking validation for your desire to join a "club".

--->That is truly not my intent. I don't seek validation... If I seek anything it's challenging discussion that provokes me to think beyond what I've been able to provoke myself.

>>>You've been given straight forward replies that are easy to understand.

--->I do appreciate them.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#292819 - 12/23/07 02:09 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
London Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 965
Loc: The Inmost Dens
 Quote:
If the police have a case against someone they believe have violated the law, they should make it, if not, they should leave people alone.


In this instance, they create a case out of thin air.


Edited by London (12/23/07 02:18 PM)
_________________________
If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then using logic I can deduce that the friend of my friend is my enemy.

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#292828 - 12/23/07 02:27 PM Be smart, be loyal. [Re: Goat]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12501
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Unlike priggish groups that refuse to allow their members any freedom at all, it has been my experience that the Church of Satan is extremely tolerant of members who wish to belong to other groups unless those groups are clearly anti-COS or advocate criminal activity.

The Church assumes that you are an adult and have the brains to keep your nose clean and not betray the legacy of Satanism.

6. How do they deal with Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan?

Backstabbers who speak against Satanism while claiming to be Satanists themselves are playing a fool's game.

To my knowledge the Church does not restrict your affiliation with other groups but will judge you harshly if you are not smart or loyal.

I would suggest that any real Satanist would take precisely the same perspective.

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#292829 - 12/23/07 02:28 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: HellofallHells]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
 Quote:
but were willing to break the law if necessary when the law conflicted with a satanists own personal values.


My top values are my survival and my personal wellbeing. I suspect I speak for others here when I say that.

If a law conflicts with my values, I'll work to change the law, re-shape my values, or move where the laws are different. It ain't worth the trouble of going to prison, or worse.


_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#292865 - 12/23/07 04:53 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Svengali]
Marcato Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/10/06
Posts: 273
Loc: Northern New England
 Originally Posted By: Svengali

Biker culture is stupid and aesthetically bankrupt.


I couldn’t agree more. I love motorcycles as a mechanical artistic platform, but I despise biker culture and the modern biker aesthetic. It had some relevance in the late forties and early fifties when bikers were GIs returning from the second World War, looking for a way to continue the brotherhood they’d formed on the battlefield.

I own a couple of businesses, one of which is a small manufacturing company that makes custom motorcycle parts. This grew out of a passion for building 1940's style custom bikes. I’ve scaled down that business a good deal in the last couple of years because I just can’t stand being subjected to the customers anymore. They’re either insurance salesmen trying to play tough, or they’re gang members who are bigger than me, profoundly dumb, and wired to the gills on crystal meth. I consider myself one of the true 1%ers: The 1% of motorcyclists that aren’t retards

I used to make the trek to Daytona twice a year to promote my wares. I don’t know how you tolerate the bikers, spring breakers, and inbred NASCAR fans.
_________________________
I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction.
Ayn Rand


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#292870 - 12/23/07 05:16 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
Yes, but your talking about YOUR club president, right?
You didn't mention what kind of club it is either.
_________________________
He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog.
||.TSB Page 33.||

An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.
|| Benjamin Franklin ||

The lack of money is the root of all evil.
|| George Bernard ||



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#292903 - 12/23/07 08:45 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: TrojZyr]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
My top values are my survival and my personal wellbeing. I suspect I speak for others here when I say that.

If a law conflicts with my values, I'll work to change the law, re-shape my values, or move where the laws are different. It ain't worth the trouble of going to prison, or worse.


Bingo.

The question of breaking laws in the name of "Satanic individualism" comes up from time to time here. It seems to me that most of the time, they aren't really talking about the abstract morality of obeying an unjust law. Instead, it's usually code for "Yeah, you SAY you won't tolerate weed-smoking, but... you don't really MEAN that, right?"

As for me, there are plenty of laws that I disagree with. And while I do think there's a tipping point where illegal actions become necessary, I don't try to kid myself into thinking I'm anywhere near it. A ban on leaf-burning isn't even in the same league as, say, the fugitive slave laws from the 19th century.

Oh, and back on the original motorcycle topic -- yeah, it all depends on which "club" we're talking about. There's a world of difference between the Hell's Angels and the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, after all.

-Chess

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#292908 - 12/23/07 08:57 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Chess]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
The question of breaking laws in the name of "Satanic individualism" comes up from time to time here. It seems to me that most of the time, they aren't really talking about the abstract morality of obeying an unjust law. Instead, it's usually code for "Yeah, you SAY you won't tolerate weed-smoking, but... you don't really MEAN that, right?"

I also notice that the people who take this line don't seem to acknowledge a distinction between unjust laws, and merely inconvenient laws. You can't have a productive and reasonable discussion about civil disobedience if you don't start with that distinction.

Edit: In short, little words: It's not "civil disobedience" to break a law just because it's inconvenient. Obey the laws of your state, even inconvenient laws.

We could talk about civil disobedience and Satanism - that would be a really interesting discussion, but not one to have out in the public forums.


Edited by reprobate (12/25/07 12:38 AM)
_________________________
reprobate

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#292913 - 12/23/07 10:12 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Chess]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12988
Loc: The Solid State
 Originally Posted By: Chess
As for me, there are plenty of laws that I disagree with. And while I do think there's a tipping point where illegal actions become necessary, I don't try to kid myself into thinking I'm anywhere near it. A ban on leaf-burning isn't even in the same league as, say, the fugitive slave laws from the 19th century.


Right.

For me, once that tipping point is actually reached, civilization as we know it is in dire straits. We're talking giant bugs and bloodsucking zombies here. ;\)
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#292957 - 12/24/07 05:03 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Trau Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Goat
I will tell you the club I'm interested in joining is not a "territorial" club, they are nationwide, and are one of the oldest, most well known clubs in existance. That much info will probably tell you exactly who it is if you know anything about MC's, lol.


It seems to me that your answer is very clear. You have let this conversation become something it never should have become: a question of affiliating with a 1%, or outlaw, club. Whereas 1% has two meanings, the common understanding is one that refers to criminal intent.

Based on the information you gave in the above quote, the club you have joined is not an outlaw club, and I would think they would be less than pleased that you have allowed the conversation to go where it has. If it's the club that comes to mind, it does indeed have a very rich and proud history, and is one of the first 'three patch' clubs. However, they are NOT a criminal organization. Representing yourself or them, even as vaguely as you have, as outlaw or 1%, dishonors your patch.

You have been told by more than one COS official that the COS does not condone illegal activity. Being that you have not joined an illegal organization, I don't see the point of pursuing your question. Truthfully, I'm not sure why you asked at all...
_________________________
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
General George S. Patton

"Ha, Ha. I've never seen anyone suck as bad at this as you!" SGT Anderson

"There's no duck! There never HAS been a duck!" Meme

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#293430 - 12/26/07 07:41 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I have never heard of that law in California. Do you have a link or a source that states the definition of a gang in California?

http://www.iir.com/nygc/gang-legis/california.htm

I don't think California makes such a definition.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#293458 - 12/26/07 08:44 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Discipline]
Goat Offline


Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Central California
Thanks for your response Discipline... I'll try to find you a reference on that.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Teddy Roosevelt

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#293460 - 12/26/07 08:53 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Adversaryan Offline
Banned

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Seattle WA
you want a joker staus because you want to be part of something. no different than here. BUT they are criminal, hence why its atractive. you should become a serious rider of the johhny depps ship. youl find happyness there.. not here.
_________________________
Nothing is absolute!! ~me~

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#293984 - 12/28/07 02:04 PM Re: Be smart, be loyal. [Re: Nemo]
The Countesss Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 57
Loc: The Makhpiyá
Indeed, Magister Nemo... "responsibility to the responsible" - consistent and logical in every aspect!
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#294541 - 12/30/07 07:42 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Matthew_Whitby Offline
Banned

Registered: 08/14/07
Posts: 150
Loc: Australia
I would take a quote from a recent Ford Car Commercial: "The only thing we have in common is that we're all unique."

I honestly think it's an individual choice whether or not they see any benefit in joining a club. If membership within that club is a benefit personally and directly to the select individual then the chances of them using membership to their advantage would serve them well.

However, when it comes to many clubs that in general are counter-productive or destructive in nature; I think it would be obviously clear to the Satanist that potential membership would not be an option.

Personally - I affiliate with no club. I see it as conforming to a destructive outcome, so I see no benefit in joining any Motorcycle Club; however again it is a personal choice.

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#298154 - 01/13/08 02:25 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Matthew_Whitby]
irchel Offline


Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 20
I ride a motorcycle myself (Switzerland). I often read and engage in German Internet Motorcycle Forums (fireblade.de and the likes) - what I can see is that the niveau of conversation there is strikingly high for internet standards - compared to most automotive forums - bwohah! I wouldn't wonder if many of these motorcycle people would be satanists, as they're often also formidable engineers - most motorcycle riders know much more about their own machines and physics and mechanics, electricity and the likes than owners of say.. BMW M3's or Mercedes SLK's - high performance cars.. these are often dumb assholes without a single clue of technology, just loads of money they don't fucking deserve and the need of a mechanical replacement of their malfunctioning reproduction organs... I generally think a lot higher of motorcyclists, although there are lots of idiots too amongst them of course

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#298679 - 01/15/08 03:51 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: irchel]
AztecRed Offline


Registered: 05/28/07
Posts: 65
Loc: Oklahoma
Well, irchel, there is a reason for that. I'm pretty sure you know. Motorcycles (especially high performance motorcycles) tend to wean out the stupid/immature people very quickly. Motorcycle riders can't ignore the laws of physics, or else they hurt. As a consequence, motorcycles tend to attract mature, knowledgeable people.

Cars on the other hand don't demand nearly as much from the operator as a motorcycle. With traction control, stability management, anti-lock brakes, etc, they really don't encourage any thought into the physics of driving. As a consequence, every ham-fisted moron and his mother populates car forums.
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#493964 - 12/21/13 07:12 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
evila Offline


Registered: 12/21/13
Posts: 1
Loc: South Jersey
I am reading "The One Percenter Code" which is striking how much outlaw ethics and morality coincide with LaVeyan Satanism. As a card carrying member of CoS, it really makes me wish that there was an official CoS Motorcycle Club, made up of individuals, with strict rules to eliminate the posers and riffraff. I would love to start or be involved with a chapter in my area.

It would be so great to be in a fringe motorcycle club made up of like-minded, motorcycle enthusiast Satanists, that is CRIME-FREE!
_________________________
Happy the man and happy he alone
He who can call today his own
He who secure within can say
Tomorrow do thy worst
For I have lived today

- from the movie "Tom Jones"

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#493979 - 12/22/13 06:01 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Goat]
Mr. E. Mann Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 92
Loc: Nashville, TN
It looks as though you've put a lot of thought into this and have made up your mind while intelligently considering the pros and cons. I commend you for that and I see nothing wrong with wanting to know where you stand among fellow Satanists in regards to your decision. I think that your wording in the original post might have made some folks think that you needed their support to justify your decision, though.
_________________________
L.G.H.

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#493989 - 12/22/13 02:48 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Mr. E. Mann]
MagisterRose Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 2403
Why are you replying to someone who hasn't posted anything for six years?
_________________________
Empty heads babble the most.

The good die young... because they see it's no use living if you've got to be good.
John Barrymore

HARDCOVER INFERNALIA

PAPERBACK INFERNALIA

HARDCOVER KASIDAH

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#493993 - 12/22/13 08:05 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: MagisterRose]
Mr. E. Mann Offline
<B>CoS Member</B>

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 92
Loc: Nashville, TN
Because someone else did, which brought it to my attention, and I didn't look at the original post date. Why are you wasting your time asking me that?
_________________________
L.G.H.

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#493997 - 12/23/13 12:39 AM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: Mr. E. Mann]
MagisterRose Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 2403
The other post struck me as a comment on the topic rather than a direct reply to someone no longer here.

It just struck me as being somewhat ridiculous.
_________________________
Empty heads babble the most.

The good die young... because they see it's no use living if you've got to be good.
John Barrymore

HARDCOVER INFERNALIA

PAPERBACK INFERNALIA

HARDCOVER KASIDAH

PAPERBACK KASIDAH

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#494013 - 12/23/13 05:26 PM Re: Motorcycle Clubs [Re: evila]
LKRice Offline

CoS Priestess

Registered: 06/28/01
Posts: 6346
Please don't dig up ancient threads.
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