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#296276 - 01/07/08 11:40 AM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Adveser]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2209
 Originally Posted By: Adveser
Furthermore, one would have to take all the Satan stuff quite literally to believe they must do it that specific way for it to work.


I think what Warlock Bill_M was trying to explain is that most of the tools listed in The Satanic Bible to use for Greater Magic aren't that difficult to attain.

Sure I advocate creativity but anyone can have access to candles, swords and chalices just about anywhere.

As far as the ingredients for Greater Magic are concerned, there is no room for creativity. There are no ifs, ands or buts. Those are completely mandatory.

HS!
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#296289 - 01/07/08 12:35 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Callier]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
Gonna have to disagree on that one. One one hand it is a psychological exercise, on the other, it is a means of harboring bioelectrical energy. The former may require certain things for certain people depending on their psyche, the latter will happen regardless of anything else if you know what you are doing. I was stating that if someone were to truly believe "Satan is doing my will, so I have to play by his rules" they surely don't understand Satanism. I understand there's a certain amount of trickery, or sleight of hand at play here that is supposed to make that possibility seem real and make a ritual more effective. For those of us that can attain results without that, it just seems kind of silly to adhere to those principles if they aren't necessary. When I did my first ritual I was more or less fumbling around trying to read the directions and it completely made me lose my focus, so I decided to conduct my own sort of drama, which for me doesn't necessitate the typical tools used in ritual.

What do I do? Honestly you're gonna think i'm nuts if I told you, so I'll keep that to myself. I do conjure up some special people of mythological nature for thier advice in a naked & pitch black confined space. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out what i'm talking about if anyone's paying attention.

To me, it works because my psyche puts a higher value and respectability to those beings than any demon I know almost nothing about.

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#296304 - 01/07/08 01:33 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: LadyVixen]
Caesar Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/01/03
Posts: 2381
Your roomies aren't in your mind are they? ;\)
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#296348 - 01/07/08 04:33 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Adveser]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11561
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Adveser
What people don't seem to realise and I have no idea why, since it has been repeated ad nauseum is that a ritual can be any damn thing you want it to be. Period.

No, it's not. Again, while rituals are fully customizable (even as step 10 of the 13 steps), they DO have some parameters. There ARE wrong ways to do a ritual. For example, you don't do a ritual while trying to casually watch TV at the same time, or incorporate the sacrificing animals (read: weak ego compensation).

 Originally Posted By: Adveser
But as far as "what to use" I absolutely think it should be the thing that works the best for each of us.

Where did I say otherwise?

 Originally Posted By: Adveser
Furthermore, one would have to take all the Satan stuff quite literally to believe they must do it that specific way for it to work.

No, they wouldn't. Have you ever even performed the standard 13-step ritual before?
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#296351 - 01/07/08 04:43 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Atom]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11561
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Atom
Yes Bill, i've read the book. I've read many books concerning many cults and occults, magic, chants and even qur'an.

Well this post and your mandatory introduction (which you finally got around to posting) shows that you're not a Satanist, and really don't have anything original or constructive to offer. You are just another occultist from the internet with the same old tiresome lines of 1) "I'm my own religion", 2) "I'm not a Satanist but I want to talk on a message board for Satanists", and 2) "making use of tools and written works is always some self-defeating act of conformity". You types are a dime a dozen.
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Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's ‹bersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#296353 - 01/07/08 04:48 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Atom]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8269
Go away.
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#296359 - 01/07/08 05:17 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Atom]
x9x Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 958
Loc: Flanders - Europe
\:>
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#296362 - 01/07/08 05:51 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Adveser]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2209
 Originally Posted By: Adveser
Gonna have to disagree on that one.


What are you disagreeing with?

The fact that most of the tools (Sigil of Baphomet, sword, candles, etc.) for Greater Magic listed in The Satanic Bible are easily accessible?

The fact that the ingredients (desire, imagery, timing, direction, balance factor) for Greater Magic listed in The Satanic Bible are mandatory?

HS!
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#296447 - 01/07/08 10:53 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Bill_M]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
Those are merely semantics, Of course you can't do ritual without focus, drama and emersion.

What I mean Bill is that there are some people that believe if they mispronounce something it will effect the results... even if they have no idea that they did, that's more of what i'm refering to

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#296448 - 01/07/08 10:55 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Callier]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
The mandatory inclusion of items used in a ritual. Specifically the itemized individual list of props, certainly not the ideas and mental aspect of it. I don't think you have to use any of it if you have something to substitute it with that may have a different meaning that achieves the same results.

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#296449 - 01/07/08 10:59 PM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Atom]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
You're implying the things used in ritual are meaningless and can be easily substituted, I'm saying something has to have deep psychological meaning and be very relevant to what you are trying to do. There's a big difference there. The kind of rituals you're probably engaging in couldn't make you muster up the desire to vacuum the floor let alone go out and achieve what you're preparing yourself to do.

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#296489 - 01/08/08 03:55 AM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: LadyVixen]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
Without wanting to stick my head TOO far into this apparent can of worms, I will simply suggest that it might perhaps pay to contemplate the activity of magic in its entirety before venturing into the practicing of it.

Parts of this discussion seem to be based in a confusion of two basic terms, being FORM and CONTENT. In most magical tradition this is precisely why you have the typical "craft" approach of master and apprentice, so that you can properly learn the form, why and how it is a "magnifying glass" of your individual effort. You should focus on learning the form before attempting to maximise the content. I most vehemently disagree with any- and everyone who claim that form is of no importance.

Greater Magic, as outlined in TSB, is a very simplified form which will work well for you if you are willing to take on the discipline of learning how to do it, without initially bothering too much about understanding what it is you are "really" doing (this will come in due time anyway). The content must be understood as the amount of "you" invested in the activity, which is ultimately a question of DOING, of practice, practice and practice.

You should consider the universal aspects of form, which in this, as in any other case, is ultimately about alignment of mental and physical energies, in order to unite your self with the greater "corporation" of the tradition. If and when you succeed in implementing the form, you will also be "borrowing" from all energy that was ever invested in it from anybody, anywhere. With a simple analogy, we might perhaps say that it is a better idea to learn how to drive before you go off on too much of a quest to customise your vehicle.

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#296885 - 01/09/08 07:54 AM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Adveser]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11561
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Adveser
What I mean Bill is that there are some people that believe if they mispronounce something it will effect the results... even if they have no idea that they did, that's more of what i'm refering to

Yes, that much is obvious to anybody who critically reads "The Satanic Bible", Magistra Barton's "Church of Satan", and related essays. However, the exact opposite problem is what I see showing up WAY more often: the attitude of "I don't have to get any of those tools, or pay much attention to the second half of the Satanic Bible."

There is a difference between following directions robotically (which again is NOT the problem I see happening), and being disciplined and organized enough to follow some kind of blueprint. Hell, even a strict following of the standard 13-step ritual leaves tons open to personalizations (choice of tools, infernal names, elixir, additional trappings, step 10 itself, etc.).
_________________________
Reverend Bill M.

http://www.devilsmischief.com: Carnal Comedy Clips, Netherworld Novelty Numbers,
New hour every week. Download the mp3 now!

http://www.aplaceformystuff.org: Tales of Combat Clutter and other Adventures

(Wenn du Google's ‹bersetzer verwendest, um diese Worte zu lesen, dann bist du ein Arschloch.)

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#296918 - 01/09/08 11:34 AM Re: Greater Magic - question [Re: Bill_M]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
Of course, but for some, the painfully obvious is an obstacle in itself. I certainly think that someone needs to understand exactly why things are the the way they are presented in The Satanic Bible before creating their own kind of drama. I didn't mean to give the impression that Doktor LaVey's writings were irrelevant to magic. He is the foundation and the frame, but everyone must design the rest of the house to fit thier needs for their own aesthetic needs and functionality. (more unnecesary similes, sorry)

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#297045 - 01/09/08 09:06 PM Try this. [Re: LadyVixen]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12579
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Test it.

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