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#296676 - 01/08/08 04:16 PM The Man Or The Message?
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
I am of the mind that every man and woman who is naming themselves "Christian" have to answer for every atrocity ever committed under the banner of this religion. It is simply not good enough to say that you consider this monstrosity of a passive-aggressive political tool for mind control to be a smorgasbord where you can pick this but leave that.

By naming yourself "Christian" you must pick up and carry the responsibility for all things that Christianity has ever done, or motivated, bad as well as good. It is a fact that this complex of ideas and emotions cannot de facto live on without living, actual people submitting to the nonsense. It is also a fact that there is a clear and concise pattern of repressive tyranny and murder of innocents tracing all the way back to the times of the emperor Constantine, when it ceased being a religion of liberty and personal freedom from the oppressive yokes of its times - much like Satanism is today.

By such a time as ANY religion starts showing a pattern of willingness to commit murder and atrocities in its name, it is dead, dead, dead as anything which can with any reasonability be called "good". It matters not whether some of the believers have no ill intent, when they align themselves with that tradition, they align themselves with evil.

The very same thing can be said of Islam. The paranoid lunatics that are blowing themselves up in the name of Allah is no isolated phenomenon caused by the insane acts of isolated madmen, it is a clear and concise pattern (Jihad-Salafism) which is a direct derivate of the complex of ideas that IS the religion. These blood stains cane NEVER be washed away. The guilt and the responsibility must be carried by all Muslims everywhere, just as in the case of the Christian tyrants.

Only by rejecting all beliefs, ideas, books and symbols of these religions can a person be free of the collective guilt and responsibility that they rightfully have to answer for if they don't. This is precisely the same reason why nobody can call themselves a "nazi" without having to answer for every murder on every man, woman and child that were committed under the swastika. There is no room for leniency in this matter. It cannot be explained away that these unlawful acts were done, and that they were done BECAUSE of said idea complex, not in spite of it.

So they say that it isn't because of the religion, it is because of man's evil nature. Well maybe so - but if this is the case, why not take "man's evil nature" seriously and try to figure out a system which is not in denial of this? This is precisely what Satanism has done - and this is precisely why Satanism belongs to the future whereas these outmoded religions of the past should rightfully be tossed onto the scrap heap of history, where they belong.

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#296684 - 01/08/08 04:46 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Syr Offline


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 19
Hm... mind if I speak my mind?
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#296685 - 01/08/08 04:46 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Xaira Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 142
Loc: South Carolina
I agree, of course.

But, my friend, aren't you stating the obvious? The adherents to a religion should be intelligent enough to know this. Even me, myself, after reading TSB went through and did a pretty thorough examination of the history of the COS, from people both on the inside and outside, so that I could have a clear idea of what I was getting myself into. Christians, and other people considering a religion, should fall into the same practice.

Hell, most Christians don't even read their whole Bible, much less understand the history and significance of their religion.
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#296687 - 01/08/08 04:48 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
 Quote:
... and this is precisely why Satanism belongs to the future whereas these outmoded religions of the past should rightfully be tossed onto the scrap heap of history, where they belong.


That will never happen. The religions that you speak of aren't going to be wiped off the planet anytime soon.

 Quote:
Only by rejecting all beliefs, ideas, books and symbols of these religions can a person be free of the collective guilt and responsibility that they rightfully have to answer for


Don't hold your breath. I'm sure that not even the perpetrators of atrocities that you speak of feel guilty for the "good" they do in the name of their faith (much less the annoying but utterly harmless run of the mill Christian churchgoer). Not only that, but I'm also pretty certain that none of them are too concerned about answering to anyone other than their "God", since the examples you've mentioned have been done in his name, after all.

 Quote:
There is no room for leniency in this matter.


You obviously feel very strongly about all of this, but you don't propose what you think should be done about any of it... especially since you feel that not only the ones guilty of these things, but the masses that had nothing to do with it should "pay".


This all just comes off as being overly dramatic and unrealistic to me, but maybe I'm just missing your point.

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Bruja

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#296688 - 01/08/08 04:48 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Does everyone who call themselves a Satanist have to answer for every wacko thing done by any old jack-off in the name of Satanism?

We say, "There's real Satanism, and then there's other things that try to pass themselves off as Satanism but aren't."

If we don't afford a similar degree of wiggle room as a courtesy to individual Christians, they won't extend it to us.


Edited by reprobate (01/08/08 04:54 PM)
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#296694 - 01/08/08 05:06 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1814
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Max Faust
I am of the mind that every man and woman who is naming themselves "Christian" have to answer for every atrocity ever committed under the banner of this religion.


Yes and no. I see where you are coming from with this, but in some ways to me it also implies that every person who declares him or herself as a Satanist is responsible for every act committed by persons who term themselves as Satanists, even if they are what we would term pseudo-Satanists.

So in that way I think that there should be a bit of leniency with these people. But they should be held responsible for the teachings and dogma that their religion represents, i.e. you cannot bring new things into the faith like reincarnation, or remove the politically incorrect ones like being against gay marriage or female priests. You have to "stand and be counted" and be prepared to face up to both the popular and less popular aspects of your religion.
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#296698 - 01/08/08 05:17 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: reprobate]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Many atrocities have been commited in the name of ''God'', in specific by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches throughout the world. Indeed, these communities (as well as the other Churches of Pseudo Christianity) have little to do with actual Christianity, which is an oriental religion not unlike to the philosophy of Hippies, very tolerant and forthcoming. The Bible is a good book, yet it contains as many unintuitive and unnatural things and guidelines as is true for the opposite. People are challanged to understand and accept such codes, as they are in conflict with their (people's) nature, yet many choose to do just that, to verify the truth of the Bible with regard to its intuitive and natural messages (very much like the three vampiric traditions), but fail at doing so nontheless (and many are prone to emotional decline by trying to scavenge what little faith remains afterward). It is a circle of death. Stick to nature, stick to the land. At least you know it's yours by inheritance.
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#296712 - 01/08/08 05:36 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Auge Offline


Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Germany
First of all, thank you, Max Faust, for your thoughts.

But I have to second a question brought up by Bruja: What shall we do about it?

What does all this practically mean, being held responsible for the church history? Should we praise someone, who enters the catholic church, for all the hundred saints and then burn him for all the thousands of murderers? How do you picture this, I don't get it.
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#296715 - 01/08/08 05:41 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Auge]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Ich glaub es wurde eher im Affekt geschrieben. Sort of a pissed-off inspirational moment. After second thoughts have been examined, it is a rethorical statement, not true words of wisdom. Your observation stands true, Auge.
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Enjoying watching the idiot-box, are you?
You do know that the radiation from the TV may affect your health, don't you?

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#296716 - 01/08/08 05:47 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2210
 Originally Posted By: Max Faust
I am of the mind that every man and woman who is naming themselves "Christian" have to answer for every atrocity ever committed under the banner of this religion.


I have family that are Christian and they don't have to answer for shit!

To the best of my knowledge, no one in my family has been convicted of murder, or crime in general. They choose to be Christian because it's what makes them feel good and I let them.

HS!
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#296728 - 01/08/08 06:26 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
Xaira Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 142
Loc: South Carolina
As much as one would like to think that, you have to think about the fact that when you claim to be of one group or another, you have to deal with the history of that group. For example, if you were to just walk up to a friend and said "I'm a Satanist." and they didn't know much about Satanism, they would assume that you were the same person as those pseudo-Satanists who claim to kill babies and the such.

With names and titles come connotations.
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"It is a sin to write this..." - Ayn Rand

devilchili

"You have to know how to accept rejection and reject acceptance." - Ray Bradbury

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#296730 - 01/08/08 06:29 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Bruja]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Bruja
That will never happen. The religions that you speak of aren't going to be wiped off the planet anytime soon.


I was actually considering writing in a bit about how "true" is different from "false" - and that I by no standars will accuse the structure of the "message" to be responsible for what aberrated lunatics are doing in the name of Satan/God/Jehova or whatever else have you of "voices in the head". It is not reasonable to blame Satanism for things that is done "in the name of Satan" by insane individuals - nor is it reasonable to blame clowns in general for the atrocities committed by John Wayne Gacy.

But I thought that too obvious.

Es war doch nicht in Affekt geschreibt.

The point I am trying to make is that the incentive for murder and mayhem have been extracted from the structure and philosophy of the religion in questioning, on an organised scale, by people who represent authority in said religions and/or political philosophies. Whether or not these people "misunderstood" the original intent of the structure is beside the point. The meme complex remains the same, and the murdering tendencies can and will surface again for the same reasons that they were there to begin with.

The fact that this will not go away anytime soon is no reason to not lay down an effort of exposing the parts of these "messages" that are causing the problem, which is by and large a systematic denial of man's true nature and the willingness to replace reality for a dream weave of fantasy and fairy tales.

What I propose should be done is to keep poking the finger into the guilt complex; in a patient, peaceful and civilized manner, by asking again and again that these people who are submitting themselves to these idea structures NEVER forget what this kind of "willingness to serve an ideal" has lead real people to do in reality throughout the times.

There is something called a critical mass in terms of "crowd crystals" (this is common knowledge in the studies of marketing principles), and as soon as that level is reached, the self perpetuating snowball effect starts to move. We actually see more and more of this in young people - who by virtue of easier access to information are now learning to question the "truths" of yesterday. Because of this, I believe that some measure of careful optimism in this respect is in its due place.

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#296731 - 01/08/08 06:30 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
ledbymusic Offline


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 63
Loc: SoCal
I agree with Callier. I also have family that are Christians. I don't chastize them for believeing what they do. I chastize the religion. As long as they are happy and it makes them a better person so be it. The feel the same way about me. There is no reason why they should be held accountable for the actions of radicalists.
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#296735 - 01/08/08 06:33 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
ConquerOrPerish Offline


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 228
Loc: DC Metro Area
Yeah seriously. Why would any particular Christian have to shoulder that burden? I think they should answer for the OWN behavior, like if they are being hypocrites, which many happen to be.
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#296738 - 01/08/08 06:41 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Xaira]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2210
That's where you are wrong.

Dr. LaVey has expressed the fact countless times that "There are Satanists and there are nuts"

The Church of Satan has no history of members claiming to "kill babies and such".

HS!
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