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#297227 - 01/10/08 05:00 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Done. It can be found under the title 'Introduction' in the respective forum.


Edited by Dead Roses (01/10/08 05:46 PM)
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#297253 - 01/10/08 07:11 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Dead Roses]
Saraflare Offline


Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 74
All I have to say is that there is no way in hell that such religions are ever going to go away. As long as there are ignorant people on this earth there will always be some crazy religion to keep them under control. I'm going to make a crazy prediction! I don't see stupid people falling off the earth for all eternity any time soon. So until this happens there will always be a mindless brainwashing religion with plenty of conforming sheep to keep it going.

As for saying that all people under a certain religion should shoulder blame for the actions of others is ridiculous! Thats like saying since I'm German I should atone for what the Nazi's did. Or saying that all people who are Satanist must kill babies.
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Bless me dark father I have sinned
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Been beneath me all the while
Whispering sweet nothings
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#297486 - 01/11/08 09:49 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Dead Roses]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Dead Roses
the new Pope


Ach, das Schwein... the former Cardinal Ratzinger used to be head of "The Intitution For The Doctrine Of The Faith" - a.k.a. the inquisition, which was first established by Dominic Guzman, in the aftermath of the so called Albigensian crusade, which ended with the siege and the massacre at the Chateau Montsegur.

Mr. Guzman, founder of the Dominican order, was also the one who first coined the phrase "kill them all and let God sort ot who's his!"...


We have of course heard little of Karol Wojtyla after he died, except that he should be canonised as a saint, which may be a strange place to put someone who was once an eager, little salesman in the employance of wartime German company IG Farbenindustrie...

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#297488 - 01/11/08 09:53 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Saraflare]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Saraflare
since I'm German I should atone for what the Nazi's did


Right or wrong, there can be little doubt that nobody has taken this heritage quite as seriously as have the Germans themselves. No place in this world (with the possible exception of Israel) will a public joke or allusion to this part of history, such as wearing the uniform or the insignia, just for "fun", lead to such a swift and hard reaction. Why? Because they GET IT. In order to wash this off their hands, they have to really DO it.

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#297494 - 01/11/08 10:33 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
So, you're saying that you favor a state that censors what its populace says based upon the potential offensiveness of the language?

Sounds like someone is polishing up their "good guy" badge.
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#297502 - 01/11/08 10:50 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
Sounds like someone is polishing up their "good guy" badge.


Sir, you are free to think what you like of me and my good guy stratagems. However, this will change little in the face of the political reality of post-war Germany having to somehow live with the legacy of a political misstep which even to this day is colouring many foreigners' view of what is the nature of "being German".

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#297504 - 01/11/08 11:02 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
Tell me, do you have the same thoughts on post-slavery America? Does the American government owe a debt to those people who never actually suffered through slavery? Am I, the grandson of four immigrants who came to the United States after slavery was abolished, compelled to feel some sort of guilt over what has happened in this nation's past?
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Hail the Citizens of the Infernal Empire!
Hail Satan!
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#297511 - 01/11/08 11:22 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Why? Because they GET IT. In order to wash this off their hands, they have to really DO it.

They do? How silly of them.
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#297512 - 01/11/08 11:26 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Plenty of nations live with missteps. Look at Russia or even the US. At least in America you can dress up like an old southern plantation owner or even a confederate general and not be persecuted by the law.

Germans overreact to such things in terms of guilt and not because they "GET IT". To avoid such indoctrination you must be willing to allow free speech and have the critical thinking to distinguish what is socially right for the nation.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297513 - 01/11/08 11:31 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
Does the American government owe a debt to those people who never actually suffered through slavery?


I understand your concern, but I find these things very difficult to compare within any reasonable political context. Perhaps we can say that it would be in poor taste to crack jokes about the realities of slavery times? Even still, America never went to war over some insane political ideology (ahem) and lost it all in rubbles and bombed-out ruins where NOTHING remained of anything resembling a national identity.

Where as *I* and *you* may well agree that this is silly, to blame people living today for the sins of their forefathers, it is still imperative that we show a will to emancipate from the ideologies that caused these unlawful things to happen. This dirt will only stick insofar there are any "velcro" type of receptors left lingering.

It has worked very well for Germany to show a zero tolerance for the symbols that once were feared and hated all over the place, even if the more intelligent people among us understand that this is ultimately little but nonsense. At the very least, it removes some of the fear that "this can happen again". I do not think that this strategy can be compared to the latter days political problems caused by slavery in America however, as these issues were caused by vastly different incentives.

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#297520 - 01/11/08 11:46 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
 Quote:
Even still, America never went to war over some insane political ideology (ahem) and lost it all in rubbles and bombed-out ruins where NOTHING remained of anything resembling a national identity.


It didn't, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

I also find it odd that in previous posts, you praise the German government as being a government that "gets it," and yet now you're saying that you agree with me that such behavior is silly.

Which is it?
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Hail the Citizens of the Infernal Empire!
Hail Satan!
Magister David Harris
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http://www.hatespeechradio.com

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#297553 - 01/11/08 01:06 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>At the very least, it removes some of the fear that "this can happen again". I do not think that this strategy can be compared to the latter days political problems caused by slavery in America however, as these issues were caused by vastly different incentives.

Bullcrap. The first step in allowing the government control over your behavior is allowing them to choose what you can and cannot say or do.

You can't play the good guy censorship and not run the risk of backing yourself in the corner by submission of control.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297565 - 01/11/08 01:21 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Discipline]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
I think Christians could be held responsible for what other Christians did.

Because - they have the same ideoligi. To be fair, most Christians I know do not know anything about Christianity, but since you CHOOSE to believe in it, or pretend you believe in it, you will have to answer for it.
Just like nazi`s today should be able to answer for their old leaders guilt. Because they believe in the same thing. But all Germans should not - they do not have the same ideologi, even though it`s likly that their grand-parents shared it.
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#297571 - 01/11/08 01:28 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Never]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
So you think a Christian of today is responsible for the Inquisition or the Crusades?

That is silly logic.

Sure, the ideology has the same roots and certainly could be pushed to such extremes again. But to blame what a person who places faith and belief, even if bad reasoning, in God and Jesus today for the Crusades is just a piss poor conclusion.

Fooling around with Nazi symbolism for fun or making a Nazi uniform costume are in completely different categories than say someone who reads and worships National Socialism and preaches day in and day out. And even if they did preach it day in and day out, they should be free to do so. It is only until they start becoming violent and forceful will it need to be addressed.


Edited by Discipline (01/11/08 02:29 PM)
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297574 - 01/11/08 01:30 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Never]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
Your argument makes no sense.

There are many different denominations of Christianity, with a variety of different ideologies. They all have a few core beliefs in common, of course. So, should Baptists be held accountable for the actions of the Catholics? Should Seventh Day Adventists be held accountable for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church?
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Hail the Citizens of the Infernal Empire!
Hail Satan!
Magister David Harris
Host - Hate Speech Radio
http://www.hatespeechradio.com

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