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#296676 - 01/08/08 04:16 PM The Man Or The Message?
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
I am of the mind that every man and woman who is naming themselves "Christian" have to answer for every atrocity ever committed under the banner of this religion. It is simply not good enough to say that you consider this monstrosity of a passive-aggressive political tool for mind control to be a smorgasbord where you can pick this but leave that.

By naming yourself "Christian" you must pick up and carry the responsibility for all things that Christianity has ever done, or motivated, bad as well as good. It is a fact that this complex of ideas and emotions cannot de facto live on without living, actual people submitting to the nonsense. It is also a fact that there is a clear and concise pattern of repressive tyranny and murder of innocents tracing all the way back to the times of the emperor Constantine, when it ceased being a religion of liberty and personal freedom from the oppressive yokes of its times - much like Satanism is today.

By such a time as ANY religion starts showing a pattern of willingness to commit murder and atrocities in its name, it is dead, dead, dead as anything which can with any reasonability be called "good". It matters not whether some of the believers have no ill intent, when they align themselves with that tradition, they align themselves with evil.

The very same thing can be said of Islam. The paranoid lunatics that are blowing themselves up in the name of Allah is no isolated phenomenon caused by the insane acts of isolated madmen, it is a clear and concise pattern (Jihad-Salafism) which is a direct derivate of the complex of ideas that IS the religion. These blood stains cane NEVER be washed away. The guilt and the responsibility must be carried by all Muslims everywhere, just as in the case of the Christian tyrants.

Only by rejecting all beliefs, ideas, books and symbols of these religions can a person be free of the collective guilt and responsibility that they rightfully have to answer for if they don't. This is precisely the same reason why nobody can call themselves a "nazi" without having to answer for every murder on every man, woman and child that were committed under the swastika. There is no room for leniency in this matter. It cannot be explained away that these unlawful acts were done, and that they were done BECAUSE of said idea complex, not in spite of it.

So they say that it isn't because of the religion, it is because of man's evil nature. Well maybe so - but if this is the case, why not take "man's evil nature" seriously and try to figure out a system which is not in denial of this? This is precisely what Satanism has done - and this is precisely why Satanism belongs to the future whereas these outmoded religions of the past should rightfully be tossed onto the scrap heap of history, where they belong.

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#296684 - 01/08/08 04:46 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Syr Offline


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 19
Hm... mind if I speak my mind?
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#296685 - 01/08/08 04:46 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Xaira Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 142
Loc: South Carolina
I agree, of course.

But, my friend, aren't you stating the obvious? The adherents to a religion should be intelligent enough to know this. Even me, myself, after reading TSB went through and did a pretty thorough examination of the history of the COS, from people both on the inside and outside, so that I could have a clear idea of what I was getting myself into. Christians, and other people considering a religion, should fall into the same practice.

Hell, most Christians don't even read their whole Bible, much less understand the history and significance of their religion.
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#296687 - 01/08/08 04:48 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Bruja Offline

CoS Witch

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 2054
Loc: Atlanta, GA.
 Quote:
... and this is precisely why Satanism belongs to the future whereas these outmoded religions of the past should rightfully be tossed onto the scrap heap of history, where they belong.


That will never happen. The religions that you speak of aren't going to be wiped off the planet anytime soon.

 Quote:
Only by rejecting all beliefs, ideas, books and symbols of these religions can a person be free of the collective guilt and responsibility that they rightfully have to answer for


Don't hold your breath. I'm sure that not even the perpetrators of atrocities that you speak of feel guilty for the "good" they do in the name of their faith (much less the annoying but utterly harmless run of the mill Christian churchgoer). Not only that, but I'm also pretty certain that none of them are too concerned about answering to anyone other than their "God", since the examples you've mentioned have been done in his name, after all.

 Quote:
There is no room for leniency in this matter.


You obviously feel very strongly about all of this, but you don't propose what you think should be done about any of it... especially since you feel that not only the ones guilty of these things, but the masses that had nothing to do with it should "pay".


This all just comes off as being overly dramatic and unrealistic to me, but maybe I'm just missing your point.

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#296688 - 01/08/08 04:48 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Does everyone who call themselves a Satanist have to answer for every wacko thing done by any old jack-off in the name of Satanism?

We say, "There's real Satanism, and then there's other things that try to pass themselves off as Satanism but aren't."

If we don't afford a similar degree of wiggle room as a courtesy to individual Christians, they won't extend it to us.


Edited by reprobate (01/08/08 04:54 PM)
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#296694 - 01/08/08 05:06 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
verszou Offline



Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 1813
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Max Faust
I am of the mind that every man and woman who is naming themselves "Christian" have to answer for every atrocity ever committed under the banner of this religion.


Yes and no. I see where you are coming from with this, but in some ways to me it also implies that every person who declares him or herself as a Satanist is responsible for every act committed by persons who term themselves as Satanists, even if they are what we would term pseudo-Satanists.

So in that way I think that there should be a bit of leniency with these people. But they should be held responsible for the teachings and dogma that their religion represents, i.e. you cannot bring new things into the faith like reincarnation, or remove the politically incorrect ones like being against gay marriage or female priests. You have to "stand and be counted" and be prepared to face up to both the popular and less popular aspects of your religion.
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#296698 - 01/08/08 05:17 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: reprobate]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Many atrocities have been commited in the name of ''God'', in specific by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches throughout the world. Indeed, these communities (as well as the other Churches of Pseudo Christianity) have little to do with actual Christianity, which is an oriental religion not unlike to the philosophy of Hippies, very tolerant and forthcoming. The Bible is a good book, yet it contains as many unintuitive and unnatural things and guidelines as is true for the opposite. People are challanged to understand and accept such codes, as they are in conflict with their (people's) nature, yet many choose to do just that, to verify the truth of the Bible with regard to its intuitive and natural messages (very much like the three vampiric traditions), but fail at doing so nontheless (and many are prone to emotional decline by trying to scavenge what little faith remains afterward). It is a circle of death. Stick to nature, stick to the land. At least you know it's yours by inheritance.
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#296712 - 01/08/08 05:36 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Auge Offline


Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Germany
First of all, thank you, Max Faust, for your thoughts.

But I have to second a question brought up by Bruja: What shall we do about it?

What does all this practically mean, being held responsible for the church history? Should we praise someone, who enters the catholic church, for all the hundred saints and then burn him for all the thousands of murderers? How do you picture this, I don't get it.
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#296715 - 01/08/08 05:41 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Auge]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Ich glaub es wurde eher im Affekt geschrieben. Sort of a pissed-off inspirational moment. After second thoughts have been examined, it is a rethorical statement, not true words of wisdom. Your observation stands true, Auge.
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#296716 - 01/08/08 05:47 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2208
 Originally Posted By: Max Faust
I am of the mind that every man and woman who is naming themselves "Christian" have to answer for every atrocity ever committed under the banner of this religion.


I have family that are Christian and they don't have to answer for shit!

To the best of my knowledge, no one in my family has been convicted of murder, or crime in general. They choose to be Christian because it's what makes them feel good and I let them.

HS!
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#296728 - 01/08/08 06:26 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
Xaira Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 142
Loc: South Carolina
As much as one would like to think that, you have to think about the fact that when you claim to be of one group or another, you have to deal with the history of that group. For example, if you were to just walk up to a friend and said "I'm a Satanist." and they didn't know much about Satanism, they would assume that you were the same person as those pseudo-Satanists who claim to kill babies and the such.

With names and titles come connotations.
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#296730 - 01/08/08 06:29 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Bruja]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Bruja
That will never happen. The religions that you speak of aren't going to be wiped off the planet anytime soon.


I was actually considering writing in a bit about how "true" is different from "false" - and that I by no standars will accuse the structure of the "message" to be responsible for what aberrated lunatics are doing in the name of Satan/God/Jehova or whatever else have you of "voices in the head". It is not reasonable to blame Satanism for things that is done "in the name of Satan" by insane individuals - nor is it reasonable to blame clowns in general for the atrocities committed by John Wayne Gacy.

But I thought that too obvious.

Es war doch nicht in Affekt geschreibt.

The point I am trying to make is that the incentive for murder and mayhem have been extracted from the structure and philosophy of the religion in questioning, on an organised scale, by people who represent authority in said religions and/or political philosophies. Whether or not these people "misunderstood" the original intent of the structure is beside the point. The meme complex remains the same, and the murdering tendencies can and will surface again for the same reasons that they were there to begin with.

The fact that this will not go away anytime soon is no reason to not lay down an effort of exposing the parts of these "messages" that are causing the problem, which is by and large a systematic denial of man's true nature and the willingness to replace reality for a dream weave of fantasy and fairy tales.

What I propose should be done is to keep poking the finger into the guilt complex; in a patient, peaceful and civilized manner, by asking again and again that these people who are submitting themselves to these idea structures NEVER forget what this kind of "willingness to serve an ideal" has lead real people to do in reality throughout the times.

There is something called a critical mass in terms of "crowd crystals" (this is common knowledge in the studies of marketing principles), and as soon as that level is reached, the self perpetuating snowball effect starts to move. We actually see more and more of this in young people - who by virtue of easier access to information are now learning to question the "truths" of yesterday. Because of this, I believe that some measure of careful optimism in this respect is in its due place.

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#296731 - 01/08/08 06:30 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
Happy Birthday ledbymusic Offline


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 63
Loc: SoCal
I agree with Callier. I also have family that are Christians. I don't chastize them for believeing what they do. I chastize the religion. As long as they are happy and it makes them a better person so be it. The feel the same way about me. There is no reason why they should be held accountable for the actions of radicalists.
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#296735 - 01/08/08 06:33 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
ConquerOrPerish Offline


Registered: 11/29/07
Posts: 228
Loc: DC Metro Area
Yeah seriously. Why would any particular Christian have to shoulder that burden? I think they should answer for the OWN behavior, like if they are being hypocrites, which many happen to be.
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#296738 - 01/08/08 06:41 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Xaira]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2208
That's where you are wrong.

Dr. LaVey has expressed the fact countless times that "There are Satanists and there are nuts"

The Church of Satan has no history of members claiming to "kill babies and such".

HS!
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#296740 - 01/08/08 06:48 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ledbymusic]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: ledbymusic
I don't chastize them for believeing what they do. I chastize the religion.


Then my question is this: How can you separate the religion from the people who are transporting this "infection" on to other people? What is the cure if not to "vaccinate" them one by one until this disease has been exterminated in its entirety? I really do not see how the religion can exist as separate entity, detached from every individual who is carrying the information in their minds. There cannot ALWAYS be "somebody else" who is responsible.

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#296748 - 01/08/08 06:53 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2208
 Originally Posted By: Max Faust
What I propose should be done is to keep poking the finger into the guilt complex; in a patient, peaceful and civilized manner, by asking again and again that these people who are submitting themselves to these idea structures NEVER forget what this kind of "willingness to serve an ideal" has lead real people to do in reality throughout the times.


Please read the third Satanic sin again.

HS!
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#296755 - 01/08/08 07:11 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
G.F.V. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 1951
Loc: NYC
A loser is as loser, regardless of what label he or she adapts.

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#296764 - 01/08/08 07:37 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
"I am of the mind that every man and woman who is naming themselves "Christian" have to answer for every atrocity ever committed under the banner of this religion."

This is handy for interviews and debates---as a rhetorical response. I've used a similar tact many times, ye olde "Gee, Mr. Larson....if you are allowed to distance yourself from the actions of Jim & Tammy Faye who claim to be Christian, surely you must see there are those who call themselves Satanists and are not acting in a Satanic manner!?"

The stammer and jaw drop are a lot of fun, but it really means very little.

And, yes, I actually do say GEE.

Y~
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#296766 - 01/08/08 07:44 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
There's varying types and levels of accountability here.

What I would like Christians to do is to take responsibility for the moral and practical implications and applications of their beliefs. So, for example, if somebody believes in Hell, I fully believe that they need to confront the fact that, according to their beliefs, Buddhist children, kindly Pagans, and the heathens they know and love in life are going to be tortured for all eternity. If a Christian says he believes and worships every word of the Bible, he needs to be asked if he also loves and obeys the gory and sick parts of the Old Testament.

So, people should not be "let off the hook" and allowed to dribble and drool whatever comes to mind, without having to somehow explore and explain how such a belief or view plays out in reality, or performs in the face of ethical standards.

I think Christians should be aware of their history. Once again, if some of their morals or beliefs match up too closely to those of famous Christian oppressors or inquisitors, they should have to confront this somehow.

But, I don't believe in treating every Christian like Torquemada, or even Torquemada's grandson. I don't believe in prematurely convicting people for crimes they didn't commit, nor making them pay reparations for what happened in the past. I also realize that Christians are diverse, so one size or one accusation does not fit all.
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#296808 - 01/08/08 09:36 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
You seem a little... troubled?

 Originally Posted By: "Max Faust"
This is precisely the same reason why nobody can call themselves a "nazi" without having to answer for every murder on every man, woman and child that were committed under the swastika.


Give it a few more decades, Christianity has a head start.

let me ask you a question if you had the power to destroy all religious people would you?
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#296843 - 01/09/08 01:15 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Ravenhael
I reiterate... STUDY.


If you read Richard Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene", you will find the term "meme" coined, for the first time, in that book. ("The least amount of information that is needed to transport an idea from one person to another" - acting along an evolutionary path somewhat similar to that of genes.) Since then, memetics has developed into a nonlinear science which is a sort of circus side show at most Universities of any stature in this world, dealing with precisely that which I mentioned, which is how and why a complex of ideas is acting as a "superstructure" whuch is ruling the destiny of individuals and influencing the course of history.

While we're at it, I would also recommend "Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff, Ayn Rand's apprentice, where he is making a quit thorough analysis of how and why "selflessness" is a disguise and a transporting vessel for the principles of tyranny, for the reasons that I mentioned in my text. Through a systematic denial of the greed of the self, replacing it with a phoney willingness to serve a religious or political ideal, we are opening the backdoor for this greed to return with a vengeance in the form of tyranny and genocide. (He is of course using nazi Germany as an example, before moving on to explain why the US of A is (was) at the same peril as was Germany in the 20's, for much of the same reasons.)

As a general principle, we are in agreement on STUDY.

What I am accusing these "innocent, law abiding people" of isn't murder and atrocities, it is for making themselves available as transporting vessels of the philosophical and ideal structures that are permitting such things to happen - with a side note to Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451" and how people made themselves into "living books". The "cure" I am proposing is enlightenment, i.e. making these people aware of their mental disease and providing a cure.

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#296845 - 01/09/08 01:23 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: shadowraven213]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: shadowraven213
let me ask you a question if you had the power to destroy all religious people would you?


That is not the point here. I am not out to destroy "people" but rather the ideas that are making them do crazy things while they BELIEVE that they are doing "God's will". If there was some way to press the Ctrl+Alt+Del button of the entire idea complex of social submission to ideologies such as Nazism, Communism, Islam and Christianity, I would do this, very likely, as it is not probable that any of these idea complexes could be restored in today's human society.

A completely different issue is the fact that this world is massively overpopulated by "people". But that is a different topic and luckily not something I have to make any kind of choice about.

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#296846 - 01/09/08 01:31 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: TrojZyr]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: TrojZyr
But, I don't believe in treating every Christian like Torquemada, or even Torquemada's grandson.


That would be highly unreasonable - and in fact it would make you no better than the bastard himself. This is not a question of "vengeance" but of working to remove the ideology foundations that have permitted such people as Torquemada to perform their sadistic petty tyranny inn environment protected by the law of their times. The fact that Torquemada and his likes are now long dead and gone is a small comfort when you look at how the same ideas that made THEM happen and they did and do what they did, are still being hailed as "the truth" by ecstatic masses in today's world.


Edited by Max Faust (01/09/08 01:41 AM)
Edit Reason: A person is a "petty tyrant" and the idea complex is "tyranny"

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#296849 - 01/09/08 01:35 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Ygraine]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Ygraine
The stammer and jaw drop are a lot of fun, but it really means very little.


Quite so... but you ARE doing it - and who is to say that this very debate at that very time is not inspiring one or two more people to THINK? This is precisely what I am suggesting, to keep on hammering in this message of responsibility in all available contexts, at all available times.

And humour can be a wonderful weapon against bigotry.


Edited by Max Faust (01/09/08 01:36 AM)
Edit Reason: A very misleading displacement of the word "not"

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#296875 - 01/09/08 07:01 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
You can't expect Christians to approach their religions with the same careful and responsible and intelligent manner that Satanists do. Do you think a preacher demands understanding from his listeners? No, they are not required to understand, only agree.
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#296896 - 01/09/08 08:58 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Ravenhael

I will be more pointed and suggest: STUDY HUMAN NATURE.


Hehe... I will take your advice, Sir.

I think I have said what I wanted on this issue.

Now, let's move on.

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#297096 - 01/10/08 02:40 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Ravenhael
Personally I would prefer dealing with the religious fool who is completely ignorant


Are there ever any other kinds?

I must apologise for assuming you were a male.

Very few of the one gender will take it as a compliment to be referred to as the other. This will however not repeat itself.

Other than that, I have nothing more to add, as this discussion seems to be quite pointless beyond that of sowing a seed, which is already done.

As was mentioned by Machiavelli in "The Prince", the appropriate way to get a message through to "the masses" is by way of fear, to which I would add that "guilt" is also an open avenue in the case of Christianity, because manipulation of this emotion is one of the cornerstones of that religion. However, there are many ways to play that game, and one of them is to use the guilt complex as a way to get "inside" and detonate more bombs.

The only existing limitations are the ones we create.

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#297213 - 01/10/08 04:11 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: ConquerOrPerish]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Ich verstehe. Yes, people, Max is right. Try re-reading his post and you'll grasp it as it were your own words written down. We got off on this topic on wrong (and hasty) interpretations of his words. Yes, people are indeed prone to acts of violence and bloodshed when surviving on the remains of their own faiths. Current Christians had also better not take the history of their institutions lightly, what with the short fuse and shit for brains (although I do believe he has quite the witful old grampa) of the new Pope. People can be influenced quite easily and carried away by the masses. And not to mention that the average Christian doesn't even read his holy book and therefore can't (or accepts not to) perceive that their spiritual leader, the pope, is both a complete pseudo-christian invention, and a pathological cretin.


Edited by Dead Roses (01/10/08 04:12 PM)
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#297226 - 01/10/08 04:58 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Dead Roses]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
Excuse me, but I don't happen to see your REQUIRED introduction in the introduction forum. Please do so. Thank you.
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#297227 - 01/10/08 05:00 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Done. It can be found under the title 'Introduction' in the respective forum.


Edited by Dead Roses (01/10/08 05:46 PM)
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#297253 - 01/10/08 07:11 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Dead Roses]
Saraflare Offline


Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 74
All I have to say is that there is no way in hell that such religions are ever going to go away. As long as there are ignorant people on this earth there will always be some crazy religion to keep them under control. I'm going to make a crazy prediction! I don't see stupid people falling off the earth for all eternity any time soon. So until this happens there will always be a mindless brainwashing religion with plenty of conforming sheep to keep it going.

As for saying that all people under a certain religion should shoulder blame for the actions of others is ridiculous! Thats like saying since I'm German I should atone for what the Nazi's did. Or saying that all people who are Satanist must kill babies.
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#297486 - 01/11/08 09:49 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Dead Roses]
Max Faust Offline
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Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Dead Roses
the new Pope


Ach, das Schwein... the former Cardinal Ratzinger used to be head of "The Intitution For The Doctrine Of The Faith" - a.k.a. the inquisition, which was first established by Dominic Guzman, in the aftermath of the so called Albigensian crusade, which ended with the siege and the massacre at the Chateau Montsegur.

Mr. Guzman, founder of the Dominican order, was also the one who first coined the phrase "kill them all and let God sort ot who's his!"...


We have of course heard little of Karol Wojtyla after he died, except that he should be canonised as a saint, which may be a strange place to put someone who was once an eager, little salesman in the employance of wartime German company IG Farbenindustrie...

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#297488 - 01/11/08 09:53 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Saraflare]
Max Faust Offline
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Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Saraflare
since I'm German I should atone for what the Nazi's did


Right or wrong, there can be little doubt that nobody has taken this heritage quite as seriously as have the Germans themselves. No place in this world (with the possible exception of Israel) will a public joke or allusion to this part of history, such as wearing the uniform or the insignia, just for "fun", lead to such a swift and hard reaction. Why? Because they GET IT. In order to wash this off their hands, they have to really DO it.

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#297494 - 01/11/08 10:33 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

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Registered: 07/01/01
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Loc: Long Island
So, you're saying that you favor a state that censors what its populace says based upon the potential offensiveness of the language?

Sounds like someone is polishing up their "good guy" badge.
_________________________
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#297502 - 01/11/08 10:50 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
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Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
Sounds like someone is polishing up their "good guy" badge.


Sir, you are free to think what you like of me and my good guy stratagems. However, this will change little in the face of the political reality of post-war Germany having to somehow live with the legacy of a political misstep which even to this day is colouring many foreigners' view of what is the nature of "being German".

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#297504 - 01/11/08 11:02 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

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Tell me, do you have the same thoughts on post-slavery America? Does the American government owe a debt to those people who never actually suffered through slavery? Am I, the grandson of four immigrants who came to the United States after slavery was abolished, compelled to feel some sort of guilt over what has happened in this nation's past?
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#297511 - 01/11/08 11:22 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Why? Because they GET IT. In order to wash this off their hands, they have to really DO it.

They do? How silly of them.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297512 - 01/11/08 11:26 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Discipline Offline
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Plenty of nations live with missteps. Look at Russia or even the US. At least in America you can dress up like an old southern plantation owner or even a confederate general and not be persecuted by the law.

Germans overreact to such things in terms of guilt and not because they "GET IT". To avoid such indoctrination you must be willing to allow free speech and have the critical thinking to distinguish what is socially right for the nation.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297513 - 01/11/08 11:31 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
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Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
Does the American government owe a debt to those people who never actually suffered through slavery?


I understand your concern, but I find these things very difficult to compare within any reasonable political context. Perhaps we can say that it would be in poor taste to crack jokes about the realities of slavery times? Even still, America never went to war over some insane political ideology (ahem) and lost it all in rubbles and bombed-out ruins where NOTHING remained of anything resembling a national identity.

Where as *I* and *you* may well agree that this is silly, to blame people living today for the sins of their forefathers, it is still imperative that we show a will to emancipate from the ideologies that caused these unlawful things to happen. This dirt will only stick insofar there are any "velcro" type of receptors left lingering.

It has worked very well for Germany to show a zero tolerance for the symbols that once were feared and hated all over the place, even if the more intelligent people among us understand that this is ultimately little but nonsense. At the very least, it removes some of the fear that "this can happen again". I do not think that this strategy can be compared to the latter days political problems caused by slavery in America however, as these issues were caused by vastly different incentives.

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#297520 - 01/11/08 11:46 AM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

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Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
 Quote:
Even still, America never went to war over some insane political ideology (ahem) and lost it all in rubbles and bombed-out ruins where NOTHING remained of anything resembling a national identity.


It didn't, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

I also find it odd that in previous posts, you praise the German government as being a government that "gets it," and yet now you're saying that you agree with me that such behavior is silly.

Which is it?
_________________________
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#297553 - 01/11/08 01:06 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>At the very least, it removes some of the fear that "this can happen again". I do not think that this strategy can be compared to the latter days political problems caused by slavery in America however, as these issues were caused by vastly different incentives.

Bullcrap. The first step in allowing the government control over your behavior is allowing them to choose what you can and cannot say or do.

You can't play the good guy censorship and not run the risk of backing yourself in the corner by submission of control.
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297565 - 01/11/08 01:21 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Discipline]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
I think Christians could be held responsible for what other Christians did.

Because - they have the same ideoligi. To be fair, most Christians I know do not know anything about Christianity, but since you CHOOSE to believe in it, or pretend you believe in it, you will have to answer for it.
Just like nazi`s today should be able to answer for their old leaders guilt. Because they believe in the same thing. But all Germans should not - they do not have the same ideologi, even though it`s likly that their grand-parents shared it.
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#297571 - 01/11/08 01:28 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Never]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
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So you think a Christian of today is responsible for the Inquisition or the Crusades?

That is silly logic.

Sure, the ideology has the same roots and certainly could be pushed to such extremes again. But to blame what a person who places faith and belief, even if bad reasoning, in God and Jesus today for the Crusades is just a piss poor conclusion.

Fooling around with Nazi symbolism for fun or making a Nazi uniform costume are in completely different categories than say someone who reads and worships National Socialism and preaches day in and day out. And even if they did preach it day in and day out, they should be free to do so. It is only until they start becoming violent and forceful will it need to be addressed.


Edited by Discipline (01/11/08 02:29 PM)
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297574 - 01/11/08 01:30 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Never]
Magister_Harris Offline

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Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
Your argument makes no sense.

There are many different denominations of Christianity, with a variety of different ideologies. They all have a few core beliefs in common, of course. So, should Baptists be held accountable for the actions of the Catholics? Should Seventh Day Adventists be held accountable for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church?
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#297579 - 01/11/08 01:37 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
Fair enough, the baptism/catolic arguement beet me.

I don`t think they should be hold responsible for it in the way that they should pay anything or go to jail. But they DO believe in the same things, and by that, you`re aknowledging that in one way.
I do not know alot of different churches, but atleast - catholics, I think, should be prepared to answer for the witch-burning, yes!

To Disicplin - I also think that nazis should be allowed to walk around the way they want, as long as they don`t hurt anyone.
But new nazism is more about killing Jews to look cool on the internet. As much as I disaprove Nazism as a whole, the old ideologi atleast had some valid points, except the anti-semmitism. So I do not see todays Nazism as an ideologi, more like a trend.
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#297583 - 01/11/08 01:41 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Never]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Catholics were not involved in witch burning. It was the Puritans of the Colonial period that were. But even so, I don't agree.


Edited by Discipline (01/11/08 01:50 PM)
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297590 - 01/11/08 01:47 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
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Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
I also find it odd that in previous posts, you praise the German government as being a government that "gets it," and yet now you're saying that you agree with me that such behavior is silly. Which is it?


Actually, it is BOTH. The rhetorical points you and I can make over this issue are of little consequence. There was a real and present political necessity of emancipation from the nazi times in Gemany after the war, and only because they did that quite impeccably could the economical "Wirtschaftswunder" happen as a reality. We may or may not feel that this has been carried on too far now, but we must also remember that a German in an SS uniform sends out a quite different subliminal message than, say, does a Scotsman or a Polack.

Whether or not this is "right" the way *we" see things aren't the point. Yes I do believe those politcians at that time made the right choices, down to minute details such as naming their intelligence agency "Verfassungsschutz" and not "Stats-Sicherheits-Polizei", etc., being terms that had been contaminated by the experiences of the past. The clean up job was nicely and efficiently done, and only bigots will think of today's Germany as inherently "nazi" or potentially tyrannical, as was the general idea in Europe after WW1. Soon all people who really remember anything of WW2 will be dead - and perhaps the time has come to move on. However, the idea of a German in an SS uniform is still a little too much for many people, and consequently not good for "Germany" as such.

We may or may not feel this as an infringement upon "the freedom of expression" - and there are a lot of very justifiable points that can be raised, but the reality of politics at that level dictates that what must be done, must be done, no matter if it steps on some toes, or even chops off a head or two. Much of what modern people think of as freedom isn't really freedom, but rather a set of some quite irresponsible "liberties" that can only happen under the protection of the laws of a strong state.

You are mentioning the American civil war - and tragical as that historical incident was, I must with all due respect discard it as anything even remotely resembling the chaos that was created by nazi Germany and WW2. On an ending note of this, I will also mention that it was Russia that beat Germany, finally, and the whole charade and senseless sacrifice of solidiers lives that was the D-day was ONLY motivated by the political fear that the Russians (i.e. the communists) were going to take over all of Europe, thereby creating a difficult economical situation for the "allies". Hitler was defeated at Stalingrad, as is well known by anybody with any kind of insight into military affairs. The rest of WW2 was only a question of time and who got to sink their claws into what part of the loot.

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#297594 - 01/11/08 01:51 PM Four Simple Words [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

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Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
"Responsibility to the Responsible"

The notion that a body of people should be held accountable for the actions of those who lived and committed crimes and atrocities before them is laughable. Each individual is held accountable for his or her own actions. There is no one blame but the actual perpetrators of the offense, save for maybe those in control at that point in history (who themselves took actions to perpetrate whatever historical bloodbath or injustice you wish to speak of.)

Christians of today cannot be held accountable for the actions of their forefathers, whether you're talking about The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, or what have you. Just as modern day Germans cannot be held accountable for The Holocaust, and modern day Americans cannot be held accountable for the horrors of slavery.

You are responsible for your actions. Period. This is one of the cornerstones of Satanism. Anyone that doesn't get that, well...
_________________________
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Magister David Harris
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#297598 - 01/11/08 02:00 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Discipline Offline
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Registered: 08/25/03
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Loc: Forever West
Yet a German living in another nation can wear a SS uniform and be legal. Perhaps people might not like him wearing it but that is their problem. The issue isn’t preventive because bigotry and violence comes in more forms than an SS uniform. The issue is that in a free society a person should be able to say and wear what he wants as long as he is not imposing on others. You can’t give up one thing in the hopes of preventing another when in reality you are just giving more power to those who actually have the power to impose such extreme ideologies.

Why doesn't anyone get pissed off when a Chinese man wears a Mao style military uniform?
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297601 - 01/11/08 02:09 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

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Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
 Quote:
Actually, it is BOTH. The rhetorical points you and I can make over this issue are of little consequence.


The fact that our points are rhetorical does not negate the fact that cannot apply antithetical positions to the same situation without making yourself look silly. Thank you for revealing yourself.
_________________________
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#297610 - 01/11/08 02:22 PM Re: Four Simple Words [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
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Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
You are responsible for your actions. Period. This is one of the cornerstones of Satanism. Anyone that doesn't get that, well...


I fully understand your point, Sir. However, we might perhaps raise a debate as to what level of dynamic involvement in what structure of ideas and "intent" exactly constitutes an "action". Say for instance in criminal law, we speak of various degrees of involvement, one of these being that of the "instigator" which may or may not be the same physical person as the "perpetrator". Much the same way, we may choose to see someone who is peddling a message that has been known and documented to lead up to unlawful activities as more or less "guilty as charged" when the books are settled with respects to whom were gulilty of what in the question of complicated political incidents.

I have no EASY answer to this question, but I have at least the question, being that of whether or not it is acceptable to serve as a medium for transporting information (in the memetic sense) that has been known and documented to lead up to severe criminal activity on a mass scale. But we have to be quite nimble with these issues, as being a "thought police" really isn't the answer either.

Ultimately, as you are pointing out, everybody has to answer for their own actions and nothing more or less. Traditionally, it has been the judging job of Osiris to determine, after weighing your heart, whether you are alowed to continue past the third chamber of the valley of death (okay that was a joke). But we have to ask - what is realistic? How can we get rid of idea complexes that are, in effect, information viruses that are leading up to criminal activity? I myself have no better suggestion that "counter ideas" and the patient but relentless propagation of such.

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#297611 - 01/11/08 02:24 PM Re: I'm curious.... [Re: Max Faust]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2208
As to know in full detail, what's your plan on how to make all these people answer for crimes they didn't commit?

Are you going to broadcast it on television? Are you going to stand on a podium and preach? Radio airplay? An inquiring mind wants to know.

If it's that friggin' serious to you then why are you talking to us?

Go to as many churches possible and make them "remember".

Approach many nazis possible and make them "remember".

Approach our American government and make them "remember".

Huh? What? You're still here? Thought so!

HS!
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#297617 - 01/11/08 02:30 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
making yourself look silly


So I look silly.

I bow to that fact as one of the risks you are taking on when you are trying to formulate unusual ideas. I can live with that.

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