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#296907 - 01/09/08 09:54 AM Can we call people individuals?
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
Hey.

This is a matter I started wondering about after reading satanistic material.

Seeing as it`s realy important for a satanist to think for himself, and do not let the society, the gouvernement, you parents etc. to think for you, I was wondering what you people ment about people which have gone to far in their influence and have been reduced to total ignorance.

Speaking from personal experience, seeing as most of the people I know, and most of my friends to, well, they are different, but they are very much the same persons. Just with different sence of humor and slightly variated interest.

What I think is, and sorry if this is not understandable `cause I`m not great when it comes to expressing myself with words, is that while I think that every single human beeing has a moral inside them which tells them what is wrong as what is right, what we can do and what we can not. For instance, I think it`s okey to hit a guy who realy badmouths my friends, but a friend of mine does not think that is fair.
I find myself in pretty much contact with myself when it comes to talking to myself, inside my own person. Therefore I like to think that I make my own choises, and therefore I find myself disobaying the rules, both those who are written and those who are not, whenever I feel that this is infact the most moral solution (and by moral I meen that`s what benefits me the most, but not just on the fysical plan).
Since I make my own choises, and as it`s our choises who decides who we realy are, I think of myself as a person, an induvidual.

But then, there are others, which are to alike. Not like two guys, but let`s say I know maybe around a hundred persons who are almost completly the same. And I think; do they base their judgement on the same ground?
I think they do, but is it possible that so many people have the same kind of morale?
No, I think it is not. I think that these are people which always have been realy caring about the unwritten rules of society, often which have been overprotective against themselves, by trying to not rub anyone the wrong way. To be friends with everybody etc.
So I`ve come the conclution that these people, are not able to hear their moral, but base their judgement on a false morale that is just a reflection on the society, which is the same for all those people, and they haev all been affected the same way. So they make choises which aren`t realy theirs. They are society`s.

So anyways, that`s some thought`s I`ve been having, and I was wondering - if this is true, is it fair to refer to `em as individuals?

Personaly, I think not, but I would like to see what others ment about this.
Thank you, and sorry for a long and boring post;)
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#296911 - 01/09/08 10:41 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
RaSc Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 484
Loc: PA
 Originally Posted By: Never

For instance, I think it`s okey to hit a guy who realy badmouths my friends, but a friend of mine does not think that is fair.


Fair? No, I don't see it as fair either. You feel obligated to physically attack someone for words directed at someone else? Your friends should be able to take care of themselves. Physical violence is typically frowned upon by the law. If you get arrested or worse, beaten to death, you have served no one, least of all your friends. Self preservation is a virtue. Turning the other cheek is not required, but it is not a license to break the law either.

 Originally Posted By: Never

So anyways, that`s some thought`s I`ve been having, and I was wondering - if this is true, is it fair to refer to `em as individuals?


Sure, you can consider them individuals. Have you ever heard that you are unique, just like everyone else? Everyone is unique and makes choices. Some of those choices are truly different, but most fashion themselves after a framework brought about by education, society, family, interactions, etc.

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#296917 - 01/09/08 11:14 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
"Individual" means "not divided". An individual is a single agent, as opposed to a group or collective. It has nothing to do with what kind of person they are.
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#296920 - 01/09/08 11:43 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: reprobate]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
A true individual will think and act from the core of their being, caring not for whatever "ideas" of what is wrong and right, no more than a wolf or a deer would do, simply as an expression of their lust for life, their greed for satisfaction, and their passion of being - then comes the area of practical life, which is where you should look into the simple principles of Satanic lesser magic in order to keep this all under control, as it ought to be obvious that this "herd" that you are observing will not ever really allow you to become very different from them. How to bridge this gap? This is where your intelligence gets proven or disproven...

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#296927 - 01/09/08 12:08 PM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Max Faust]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
To make up what I said - I didn`t meen this as all people, I thought like about 20%.
And I`m not impelling that they are stupid or anything, but realy easy..eh, what`s the word - they easily get`s cought up in other peoples toughts.
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#296978 - 01/09/08 04:52 PM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
I saw a message on a Taco Bell sauce package yesterday that said, "I'm taking the day off, see the next packet please." I thought it was quite funny as it really puts people into an interesting perspective for me.

Everyone has their own unique quirks to them but this doesn't mean that they are independent in thought and able to look at the world with their own spectacles. The vast majority of the population subscribes to prepackaged lifestyles, ideas and practices. Each one of them make their choices based on their peers preferences, who in turn are doing the same and the whole group is just being lead on a leash by those above handing down instructions. The true individuals are those people above playing with their inferiors like an army of dolls, dressing them up, telling them how to think, what to eat, where to spend their money, what to laugh at, who to be angry with, etc etc etc etc.

In a smaller group such as your band of friends it is easier to see the differences between them even if they are very much the same. In that sense, if you can recognize and appreciate their differences it makes them much more 'individualistic' in your eyes. Of course, you all share a common something that makes you a clicking collective.

As far as Satanic Individualism is concerned it is all about personal preferences, fulfilling your own desires and not worrying about what others think about your choices. Unless, of course, impressing others is your preference.

As an example I say just observe the Church of Satan's Magistrate here on LttD. Every one of them is absolutely distinct in their own personalities. Not a lump of clones among them. That is what I see as true individualism. Cohesive yet truly unique.

I kind of rambled but those are my thoughts as they came to mind.
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#297008 - 01/09/08 07:37 PM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11565
Loc: New England, USA
To quote the movie Men in Black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

Regarding "morality", moral codes change from society to society and from generation to generation. The only things that stay seemingly consistant are ethics that have their roots in the survival drive and rational self-interest (don't do things to harm yourself or your family, don't wreck the environment or community you live in, etc.)
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#297941 - 01/12/08 02:23 PM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Bill_M]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Yes, I have indeed noticed some harsh discussions on this forum, each of them being a result of the clash of healthy, individual egos. Like the one between Reverend Harris and Max in ''The Man or the Message?''. The Church of Satan is an elitistic organization which does look for a few outstanding individuals;o) aber Spaß bei Seite, I do share your concern (if it can be adressed in such a term) over the decline of personal thought in our society, but still, this issue has always been a point of debate, as it is inherent to the human nature to succumb to group affirmation when not having a set of established morals (nature and nurture have a great impact, too) and values of one's own. Just another battle in an eternal war.
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#297945 - 01/12/08 02:39 PM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
We are all individuals.

But some of us are more individual than others.
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#298525 - 01/15/08 12:54 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
Stev2 Offline


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 183
I think it depends on what their goals are and how they are preserving themselves.

I'm sure there can be individualists who are a lot like others and are still happy.

I think it's intelligence and sensiitivy of what justice is that determines what they consume and where they spend their time, and how they interact with others in their environment.

It is obvious to me that dumb people can have independent and rebellious natures.
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#298526 - 01/15/08 12:58 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Stev2]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
 Originally Posted By: Stev2
It is obvious to me that dumb people can have independent and rebellious natures.


I never tried to say anything else.

This was never about intelligence for me, it was about the ability to make your own choises.
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#298528 - 01/15/08 01:17 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
Stev2 Offline


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 183
The best response I can give you is that nature is nature. People are just the way they are.

Can they make there own choices? Sure. But, I'm sure people are asking themselves "How will this action affect me?"
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#298551 - 01/15/08 04:43 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Old_Pig]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Tha_Pig
We are all individuals.


This reminded me of a magic moment from the Monty Python movie "Life Of Brian" ...

Brian: Listen people! We are all individuals!

Crowd: (in unison choir) Yes-we-are-all-individuals...

Lonely voice at the back: No not me!!!

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#298552 - 01/15/08 04:52 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Max Faust]
Mr Avarice Offline



Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 991
Loc: Scandinavia
Exactly what I was thinking about! ;\)
Individuals .

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#298584 - 01/15/08 09:00 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
I will be honest…I am not sure what it is that you are asking. My comments may not be related to your question. Are you equating individuality with self-referential morality?

Are you saying that an individual is one who thinks for his or herself, and one who conforms to an external morality is not an individual? By non-individual, I assume you mean someone who is part of the herd. Are you asserting that one who follows the rules of society are not an individual? I hope not.

I have never met anyone who does not assume that they are unique. In a way, they are right. It is often thought, I think, that “herd mentality” refers to homogenization. Anyone who has spent time around sheep will know that this is not true. Sheep are simply followers. Few want to see themselves as followers, so the trick is to lead by making the sheep think they are doing what they really want to do. In other words, human sheep are manipulated. The trick in not being a sheep is not flouting the law, but not being manipulated. The issue of laws and societal rules are of little interest to a Satanist, in my opinion. If they were suddenly taken away, I doubt there would be any serious change in our actions. Even “trivial” things, such as seat belt laws make sense. A follower obeys the laws and follows the rules to keep from “getting into trouble”, or to be accepted. A Satanist obeys the laws to keep things running smoothly in order better use whatever “system” they find themselves in to get what they need and want. If looking like a sheep helps, so be it. That does not have to take away from ones individuality.
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#298597 - 01/15/08 09:45 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
I`m not trying to say that one that follow the laws of society are not an induvidual.

And I`m not saying that everyone is alike, but I know some people, pretty many, I think, I find like 20% a good number, anyways, these are people that before they take action usually not consider the rammafications on their own, but rather turns to what society has allowed, the "unwritten rules", and makes up their mind according to what they consider right according to these "laws".
What I refer to as "moral" is their judgement, I belive I make my decitions based upon what I feel is right and wrong, my moral.

As to saying they are not individuals - I do believe that everyone is unique, and that everyone has this "moral", that`s what I belive makes us different in reality, because it`s our choises that decide who we realy are as a human beeing.
By sheeps, I think of guys who struggle to get like popularity, and then rally behind the most liked people, or like people who believes in what someone tells them, blind trust without questions. I think there`s a difference between those people and the ones that I describe (but they may very often be both of the above), but I don`t think it`s the same. For instance, I used to know this girl, that was realy populare.
She was like the girl every guy wanted to be with and that every girl wanted to be like. And I have to admitt, I was in love with her, to. We had a pretty good conection, but I saw here ALWAYS doing what she thought would be accepted and NEVER what she realy wanted. That`s actually what made me loose interest.
It`s those people I meen - they are different, some are smarter, some are prettier, some are funnier - but they never make their own choises.

I don`t know - it sound better in my head.
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#298602 - 01/15/08 10:18 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Never


As to saying they are not individuals - I do believe that everyone is unique,



There is the paradox! Everyone is "special"...which means there's nothing special about being special. As to what I think you are thinking...if we can agree that one stay withing the confines of local laws, yes, there are few who want to think for themselves.
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#298604 - 01/15/08 10:37 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
G.F.V. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 1955
Loc: NYC
Under one category are those who will do anything and everything to fit in, to be embraced by their peers, even if it means constantly being taken advantage of. Such people think they are doing the right thing by "going with the flow". By being themselves, they would be "inadequate" or "foolish".

In another category are those who think they are total individuals who are better than the rest, yet still succumb to other "unique" trends, fads, and ideas. Such people want the acceptance of fitting in just like the follower above, but on a more "slick" or "cool" fashion. Ironically, when called out on their actions, they'll be the first to cry "I'm an individual".

The individual is not afraid to be him/herself while realizing that there's nothing wrong with occasionally going along with another's wishes. He or she is not afraid to compromise once in a while, as long as their best interests are served and their integrity remains intact.

Overall, individuality has a lot to do with self-awareness and being discriminating in the choices one makes. Knowing WHY oneself goes with the flow or against the grain in any situation is important.

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#298609 - 01/15/08 10:57 AM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: G.F.V.]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
If you`re saying I`m to obsessed by going against the flow, then you have misunderstood me.

I mostly do as I like, sometimes I stop myself because I don`t want to get in trouble, but mostly, I just do as I want. I dress up pretty much as for what comforts me, but I care alot about having a band on my T-shirts and most of the time, I`ll run around in a Metallica T-shirt. I would suspect, if you don`t know me that well, I`m pretty much normal, but for the people that know me well, I am realy realy weird. It shines through after a while.

I`m not saying I am the most induvidual person on the earth. I am pretty much in need of attention, I like beeing in the spotlight, that`s who I am. I depend to much on other people, and that is one of my biggest weeknesses, sure.
But I make my own decitions. By myself. That`s why I think of myself and most others as induviduals.
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#298626 - 01/15/08 12:13 PM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
G.F.V. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 1955
Loc: NYC
As far as clothing goes, why should it matter to you whether or not you always wear a band logo on a T-Shirt? While I think it's cool to sport articles of clothing (or jewelry, or anything else) to support what you really like, you shouldn't feel any less comfortable with yourself from wearing a completely blank or plain colored shirt either.

And there's nothing wrong with liking some attention from others either. But ask yourself: is the overall attention that you seek benefiting you, or is it hindering you and only helping others?

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#298644 - 01/15/08 01:47 PM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2210
Of course we can.

In this case the word individual should be used as a noun, which defines a single person who is considered apart from a society or community, as far as rights are concerned.

It also defines a person that's distinguished from others by a special quality.

Going by these definitions alone, morality is pretty much irrelevant.
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#298647 - 01/15/08 02:02 PM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Never]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
So as not to detract from the conversation, I am not saying that you can call people anything you want...except late for dinner. Oops...
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#298650 - 01/15/08 02:08 PM Re: Can we call people individuals? [Re: Callier]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
An equilibrium should be sought out. Being an ''individual'' up to the mountain-top where one meets counter-productive pride, is as bad as succumbing to the stampedo of the herd. One of the basic principles of Satanic philosophy is to go along with what is ultimately in one's best interest. You can rule from the shadows just as well as you could from a throne; it is upon the individual to decide which road suites him better, the highway or the tunnel, being ever watchful of potentially harmful tracks when using the latter, lest one blends with the mass he was trying to manipulate with in the beginning.
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