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#297579 - 01/11/08 01:37 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
Fair enough, the baptism/catolic arguement beet me.

I don`t think they should be hold responsible for it in the way that they should pay anything or go to jail. But they DO believe in the same things, and by that, you`re aknowledging that in one way.
I do not know alot of different churches, but atleast - catholics, I think, should be prepared to answer for the witch-burning, yes!

To Disicplin - I also think that nazis should be allowed to walk around the way they want, as long as they don`t hurt anyone.
But new nazism is more about killing Jews to look cool on the internet. As much as I disaprove Nazism as a whole, the old ideologi atleast had some valid points, except the anti-semmitism. So I do not see todays Nazism as an ideologi, more like a trend.
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#297583 - 01/11/08 01:41 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Never]
Happy Birthday Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Catholics were not involved in witch burning. It was the Puritans of the Colonial period that were. But even so, I don't agree.


Edited by Discipline (01/11/08 01:50 PM)
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297590 - 01/11/08 01:47 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
I also find it odd that in previous posts, you praise the German government as being a government that "gets it," and yet now you're saying that you agree with me that such behavior is silly. Which is it?


Actually, it is BOTH. The rhetorical points you and I can make over this issue are of little consequence. There was a real and present political necessity of emancipation from the nazi times in Gemany after the war, and only because they did that quite impeccably could the economical "Wirtschaftswunder" happen as a reality. We may or may not feel that this has been carried on too far now, but we must also remember that a German in an SS uniform sends out a quite different subliminal message than, say, does a Scotsman or a Polack.

Whether or not this is "right" the way *we" see things aren't the point. Yes I do believe those politcians at that time made the right choices, down to minute details such as naming their intelligence agency "Verfassungsschutz" and not "Stats-Sicherheits-Polizei", etc., being terms that had been contaminated by the experiences of the past. The clean up job was nicely and efficiently done, and only bigots will think of today's Germany as inherently "nazi" or potentially tyrannical, as was the general idea in Europe after WW1. Soon all people who really remember anything of WW2 will be dead - and perhaps the time has come to move on. However, the idea of a German in an SS uniform is still a little too much for many people, and consequently not good for "Germany" as such.

We may or may not feel this as an infringement upon "the freedom of expression" - and there are a lot of very justifiable points that can be raised, but the reality of politics at that level dictates that what must be done, must be done, no matter if it steps on some toes, or even chops off a head or two. Much of what modern people think of as freedom isn't really freedom, but rather a set of some quite irresponsible "liberties" that can only happen under the protection of the laws of a strong state.

You are mentioning the American civil war - and tragical as that historical incident was, I must with all due respect discard it as anything even remotely resembling the chaos that was created by nazi Germany and WW2. On an ending note of this, I will also mention that it was Russia that beat Germany, finally, and the whole charade and senseless sacrifice of solidiers lives that was the D-day was ONLY motivated by the political fear that the Russians (i.e. the communists) were going to take over all of Europe, thereby creating a difficult economical situation for the "allies". Hitler was defeated at Stalingrad, as is well known by anybody with any kind of insight into military affairs. The rest of WW2 was only a question of time and who got to sink their claws into what part of the loot.

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#297594 - 01/11/08 01:51 PM Four Simple Words [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
"Responsibility to the Responsible"

The notion that a body of people should be held accountable for the actions of those who lived and committed crimes and atrocities before them is laughable. Each individual is held accountable for his or her own actions. There is no one blame but the actual perpetrators of the offense, save for maybe those in control at that point in history (who themselves took actions to perpetrate whatever historical bloodbath or injustice you wish to speak of.)

Christians of today cannot be held accountable for the actions of their forefathers, whether you're talking about The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, or what have you. Just as modern day Germans cannot be held accountable for The Holocaust, and modern day Americans cannot be held accountable for the horrors of slavery.

You are responsible for your actions. Period. This is one of the cornerstones of Satanism. Anyone that doesn't get that, well...
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Hail Satan!
Magister David Harris
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http://www.hatespeechradio.com

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#297598 - 01/11/08 02:00 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Happy Birthday Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
Yet a German living in another nation can wear a SS uniform and be legal. Perhaps people might not like him wearing it but that is their problem. The issue isn’t preventive because bigotry and violence comes in more forms than an SS uniform. The issue is that in a free society a person should be able to say and wear what he wants as long as he is not imposing on others. You can’t give up one thing in the hopes of preventing another when in reality you are just giving more power to those who actually have the power to impose such extreme ideologies.

Why doesn't anyone get pissed off when a Chinese man wears a Mao style military uniform?
_________________________
"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#297601 - 01/11/08 02:09 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Max Faust]
Magister_Harris Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 07/01/01
Posts: 1851
Loc: Long Island
 Quote:
Actually, it is BOTH. The rhetorical points you and I can make over this issue are of little consequence.


The fact that our points are rhetorical does not negate the fact that cannot apply antithetical positions to the same situation without making yourself look silly. Thank you for revealing yourself.
_________________________
Hail the Citizens of the Infernal Empire!
Hail Satan!
Magister David Harris
Host - Hate Speech Radio
http://www.hatespeechradio.com

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#297610 - 01/11/08 02:22 PM Re: Four Simple Words [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
You are responsible for your actions. Period. This is one of the cornerstones of Satanism. Anyone that doesn't get that, well...


I fully understand your point, Sir. However, we might perhaps raise a debate as to what level of dynamic involvement in what structure of ideas and "intent" exactly constitutes an "action". Say for instance in criminal law, we speak of various degrees of involvement, one of these being that of the "instigator" which may or may not be the same physical person as the "perpetrator". Much the same way, we may choose to see someone who is peddling a message that has been known and documented to lead up to unlawful activities as more or less "guilty as charged" when the books are settled with respects to whom were gulilty of what in the question of complicated political incidents.

I have no EASY answer to this question, but I have at least the question, being that of whether or not it is acceptable to serve as a medium for transporting information (in the memetic sense) that has been known and documented to lead up to severe criminal activity on a mass scale. But we have to be quite nimble with these issues, as being a "thought police" really isn't the answer either.

Ultimately, as you are pointing out, everybody has to answer for their own actions and nothing more or less. Traditionally, it has been the judging job of Osiris to determine, after weighing your heart, whether you are alowed to continue past the third chamber of the valley of death (okay that was a joke). But we have to ask - what is realistic? How can we get rid of idea complexes that are, in effect, information viruses that are leading up to criminal activity? I myself have no better suggestion that "counter ideas" and the patient but relentless propagation of such.

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#297611 - 01/11/08 02:24 PM Re: I'm curious.... [Re: Max Faust]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2210
As to know in full detail, what's your plan on how to make all these people answer for crimes they didn't commit?

Are you going to broadcast it on television? Are you going to stand on a podium and preach? Radio airplay? An inquiring mind wants to know.

If it's that friggin' serious to you then why are you talking to us?

Go to as many churches possible and make them "remember".

Approach many nazis possible and make them "remember".

Approach our American government and make them "remember".

Huh? What? You're still here? Thought so!

HS!
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#297617 - 01/11/08 02:30 PM Re: The Man Or The Message? [Re: Magister_Harris]
Max Faust Offline
Banned

Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 419
Loc: Ultima Thule
 Originally Posted By: Reverend_Harris
making yourself look silly


So I look silly.

I bow to that fact as one of the risks you are taking on when you are trying to formulate unusual ideas. I can live with that.

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