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#298225 - 01/13/08 08:59 PM Abortion
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
I have been thinking about a Satanic perspective on abortion. Just in case anyone is wondering, no it's not a "I need help because of a personal situation" question, it's more of a "What if" question or simply what are some Satanic perspectives. I saw Magister Nemo's post on another thread, which I copied below.

 Quote:
You wish a Satanist point of view on something?

Offer yours first along with explanations as to why you think that it is so.

Anton LaVey wrote about what he thought and then explained why.

He didn't just ask people, "What is your opinion about ____ ?"

I am suggesting that understanding Satanism comes from first attempting to do so in exactly the same way.

You have read Satanic literature.

You wonder about a topic.

Apply your current understanding to the topic by placing your thoughts in words and then offer explanations for why you think you are correct.

Then when others respond, it can actually develop into something enriching and interesting.

Otherwise it is a fairly shallow exercise in popular polling.

"Hi. What is your Satanic view on kumquats?" is purposeless word salad.

"My view of kumquats from a Satanic view is this: _____ . I feel it is Satanic because _____ and ____ . Do you disagree or have other thoughts?"

This leads somewhere potentially.

Offer something first and then ask for feedback.

That is then not just taking.

It is sharing.

That's how I see it.


I was Catholic for most of my life, and abortion (more specifically the pro-life perspective) is extremely important in that religion. They even have bumper stickers that say "You can't be Catholic and Pro-Life." I'm struggling to shake the last bit of Catholicism out of me, but can't help to think about what a Satanic perspective on abortion could be. I will follow Magister Nemo's advice and post my thoughts. I'm a bit conflicted on this issue, although I know what I want the right answer to be. I kindly ask for feedback and for others to share their thoughts. Thank you.

Probably the most Satanic approach to this issue is not to put yourself (or your partner) in that position in the first place. With a plethora of methods of birth control and a little advanced planning this wouldn't even be an issue. Satanism holds the individuals accountable for their actions and promotes responsible behavior, so I'm pretty confident on this part.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that John & Suzy Doe were using birth control, but it failed and resulted in a pregnancy. I could see Satanism supporting both the pro-life and the pro-choice perspectives. So would this mean that it's up to the individual Satanist to decide where they stand on abortion and what's right for them?

Pro-Life:
1. Scientists can't agree on when life starts exactly. In most cases, if a fertilized egg is left undisturbed it will develop and be birthed into a baby. Don't interfere with the natural order of nature or (depending on when you believe life starts) don't bring harm to young children (in this case, very young).

2. John & Suzy Doe knew (or at least they should have known) that no method of birth control is 100% effective. Their behavior resulted in a pregnancy. They should take responsibility for their behavior and allow the child to be born, with the possibility of putting it up for adoption.

3. In the portion of TSB that addresses greater magic & the destruction ritual it is clear that the person must be deserving and that you would fill no remorse no matter what happens. How can an unborn child be deserving of death (again, I guess this depends on when you believe life starts)? Many women feel remorse after abortions, so that would seem to discourage this practice.

Pro-Choice:
1. It is natural, healthy, & gratifying to follow our animal instincts. If it results in pregnancy, survival of the fittest kicks in and the adult (being the more fit than the fertilized egg) can make what ever decision she wants.

2. "Satan represents man as just another animal ... who ... has become the most vicious animal of all!" If it isn't good timing or doesn't fit into your life style, do what's in your best interest (even if it seems vicious to some).

Once you decide where you stand on this issue, is it really one of those issues (right up there with gun control) that would dictate the way you vote? Is it really THAT important? Furthermore, wouldn't voting on a topic relating to someone else's life and body be interjecting your opinion when not asked? For me it's not important enough to affect the way I vote, I don't care if a candidate is pro-life or pro-choice. Any thoughts?
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#298228 - 01/13/08 09:11 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Have you read Dr. LaVey's thought on the issue?
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#298229 - 01/13/08 09:17 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
 Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir


Probably the most Satanic approach to this issue is not to put yourself (or your partner) in that position in the first place. With a plethora of methods of birth control and a little advanced planning this wouldn't even be an issue. Satanism holds the individuals accountable for their actions and promotes responsible behavior, so I'm pretty confident on this part.



Bingo. "Responsibility to the responsible." A Satanist should likely not come across this problem, unless by pure accident. (Aka, birth control didn't work, AND the condom broke.) In an audio interview with Peter H. Gilmore (I posted it ages ago in another thread...if I find it, I will repost it here) he addresses this issue. I don't remember it exactly, if anyone does, please correct me if I am wrong, but I think from his point of view, it is okay in the right situation.

From my personal point of view, since it IS legal, it is acceptable. I think it is a privelage do be able to have this choice, and that the fact that it gets abused by irresponsible jackasses all too often is a shame, but as it stands, it is backed by the law, and for a price, we are allowed to take advantage of this.

Since moral standards are not dictated by The Satanic Bible, (as long as they reside within the law, Satanists can, and do, have different morals) this topic is highly subject to personal choice, rather then falling under the scrutiny of Satanism. The minute abortion becomes illegal, that is a different story entirely, but such a hypothetical situation would be of no point to discuss, since such seems unlikely at this point in time.

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#298231 - 01/13/08 09:23 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
This is only an issue because people cannot be responsible, If they took the proper precautions then this would never happen.

The contraceptive pill is 99% effective if taken correctly and that 1% could easily terminate very early while the embryo is still undeveloped.

This rare occasion might cause an issue for some people but the fact of the matter is that an embryo is not going to feel anything at all if its brain isn't even developed, the remote possibility is that it does but its death is very quick and it probably would be unable to appreciate it the same way we do.

And even this 1% should have the choice to go through with the pregnancy or not, Its her body and no one else's.

My Satanic perspective on abortion? it should very rarely have to happen if at all.

I am personally waiting for a male effective contraceptive to become available.
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#298233 - 01/13/08 09:27 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
I haven't, but would greatly appreciate it if you would direct me to the appropriate source.
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#298239 - 01/13/08 09:51 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Philotechnic Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 745
Loc: NC, US
Pg. 29, Satan Speaks! "The Third Side: The Uncomfortable Alternative"

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#298248 - 01/13/08 10:24 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Mr Avarice Offline



Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 991
Loc: Scandinavia
It's easy to for me to start preaching responsibility to the responsible, BUT:

1. I am not a female (SURPRISE) and cannot possibly relate to the feeling of carrying a child.

2. I have never been in a situation where abortion seams to be the only option so how could i possibly judge others?

I shall have to sleep on this matter...

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#298249 - 01/13/08 10:30 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I don't think this is a wise topic to discuss in the public forums.

Just a warning.
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#298252 - 01/13/08 10:35 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Mr Avarice]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Abortion as a choice has nothing to do with relating to the feeling of carrying a child. The point is, such a situation should be avoided at all costs in the first place, thus, "Responsibility to the responsible." You shouldn't have to be a woman to see how being responsible in the first place, using protection, etc, is generally a good idea...

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#298253 - 01/13/08 10:38 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
It has been discussed before...


Attachments
HORSE.jpg


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#298257 - 01/13/08 10:54 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Philotechnic]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Thank you. I haven't read that book yet, but will look into it.
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"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#298260 - 01/13/08 11:06 PM Re: Abortion [Re: TheDegenerate]
Drakein Offline


Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 62
 Originally Posted By: Phosis
"Responsibility to the responsible." A Satanist should likely not come across this problem, unless by pure accident. (Aka, birth control didn't work, AND the condom broke.)


Or rape, very common cause of unwanted pregnancies.
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#298261 - 01/13/08 11:12 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
1) I don't see the logic in looking down on an irresponsible person getting an abortion. Do you really want an irresponsible person carrying a child to term and then raising it? Also, if they are choosing to abort because they know they cannot possibly have kid in their current situation, how is that not being responsible?

How can we be sure that any women getting an abortion is doing so because she was being irresponsible? What about birth defects? A pregnancy making the mother violently ill? there are many reasons.

2) Not all women can take any form of birth control they want. A good chunk of women cannot use hormone birth control, which leaves them the option of either sterilization or an copper IUD. Sterilization is difficult to get if a woman is under thirty and its almost impossible if shes never had kids. Most doctors refuse to insert an IUD if a women has never given birth due to possible insertion complications and the fear of a lawsuit.

3) Latex and nonoxinol-9 allergies.

4) There is no one Satanic view on abortion, many have their own views on it. But those views shouldn't matter. What should matter is what you feel is right for you to do in your own situation.


Edited by tovasshi (01/13/08 11:13 PM)
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#298264 - 01/13/08 11:29 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Drakein]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
 Originally Posted By: drakein
 Originally Posted By: Phosis
"Responsibility to the responsible." A Satanist should likely not come across this problem, unless by pure accident. (Aka, birth control didn't work, AND the condom broke.)


Or rape, very common cause of unwanted pregnancies.


Rape is certainly not done on purpose by the victim, so I would classify that as an accident...

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#298270 - 01/14/08 12:14 AM Deeper questions. [Re: AurEum]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12577
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Scientists can't agree on when life starts exactly.


We have no real idea exactly when life started at all. Some very serious scientists find it ridiculous to assume it could have evolved in a mere two billion years and assume life got started somewhere else first.

Why do I mention this?

Because a human life does not start at birth nor conception nor in-between those two events at all!

Your multi-cellular organism (physical body) was created from your parents' cells, as theirs were created from their parents' cells, all the way back.

And, as I just mentioned, we really have no certain idea how far back that is in time but it is probably at least two billion years.

The assumption (which is incorrect) is that a human being starts life somewhere between conception and birth.

Obviously that cannot be so.

You were not created out of dead parents.

The tissue that makes up your body is the continued surviving tissue that has been around for at least two billion years.

(Didn't realize how really old you were, huh? ;\) )

Therefore the deeper question is, "Exactly what is it that is aborted in an abortion?" followed by "What is being killed in an abortion?"

Not easy or simple questions at all!

Frankly, the reason this ethical issue is so very sticky is due to an inability to actually be able to precisely define some important items such as life, death, and human.

What is the dividing line between life and death? What is a human being?

Until these are identified the debate rages on the level of emotional programming and not reason.

Frankly, there are a lot of questions that human beings simply do not have enough knowledge yet to answer.

There remain many mysteries to solve.

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#298276 - 01/14/08 12:44 AM Re: Deeper questions. [Re: Nemo]
Starless Pixie Offline


Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 63
Loc: Missouri
This is just my opinion, but I think abortion should stay legal. As for responsibility to the responsible, how often does one see a young teenage mother going out doing drugs and such instead of taking care of the kid? As a Satanist, I am against child neglect and abuse as I'm sure all the rest of you are.

Overpopulation is another obstacle. Often it it said " Don't abort! Give up for adoption! There is a childless woman out there who wants to adopt a little darling!" Yet there are so many children in the foster system, orphanages, and on the streets already that we need to think of first.

My husband and I don't want children. We have, however, discussed what we would do if I did get pregnant. We've thought about abortion, but also thought about the possibility of if(when) I do become pregnant if my hormones will allow me to go through with it.

One thing we are sure on though: If the fetus shows signs of birth defect ( I don't mean a missing finger or a cleft lip, something major like Downs Syndrome ) we will abort. We want to bring into the world a child who will be smart, productive, and contribute to society, not a burden to it depleting tax dollars in an institution.


Edited by Starless Pixie (01/14/08 12:45 AM)

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#298289 - 01/14/08 03:52 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Drakein]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: drakein
 Originally Posted By: Phosis
"Responsibility to the responsible." A Satanist should likely not come across this problem, unless by pure accident. (Aka, birth control didn't work, AND the condom broke.)


Or rape, very common cause of unwanted pregnancies.


According to whom?
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#298290 - 01/14/08 04:27 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11561
Loc: New England, USA
 Quote:
I could see Satanism supporting both the pro-life and the pro-choice perspectives.
An issue of Trident once posed the question "Should Satanists be pro-life or pro-choice?", and my submitted answer was selected for publishing in the issue that followed.

I first pointed out that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are terms that people tend to incorrectly redefine. The only thing these terms answer is where one stands on the issue of abortion LAWS: pro-life people want laws that prohibit abortion, pro-choice people don't. Again, that's ALL that these two terms are supposed to mean. They have nothing to do with what decision the individual might make if placed in the situation. Furthermore you have the problem that "where life begins" is a philosophical question.

 Quote:
So would this mean that it's up to the individual Satanist to decide where they stand on abortion and what's right for them?

Since "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are purely political stances, and since the Church of Satan does not hold a particular political view (it's left up to the individuals to decide for themselves), the answer is yes.

Though when it comes to the subject of abortion in general, I think Tha_Pig summed it up nicely with his horse photo. Talking about it never gets you anywhere.
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#298333 - 01/14/08 09:54 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
spook show Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 356
Loc: under your bed
Magistra Blanche Barton touched briefly on the subject of abortion in her essay 'The Grand Conspiracy' in issue 129 of The Cloven Hoof. It might be worth a look if you can get a copy.
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#298334 - 01/14/08 10:08 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
Drakein Offline


Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 62
According to RAINN, not regarding the rest of the world, the recoded cases in the US is a low 3-5%, but still that means 3,200 rape related pregnancies annually.
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Gather around me, Oh! ye death-defiant, and the earth itself shall be thine, to have and to hold!

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#298338 - 01/14/08 10:39 AM Re: Deeper questions. [Re: Nemo]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Yes, indeed, Magister. Life does not ''start'' in any of those cycles, it is merely starting to evolve into something more intricate and complex (a new human being). But this fact does pull along another set of hairy questions, one of them being about the degree of remorse felt about destroying the embryo raspective to its current point of development. To put this simple: Squashing a bug and shooting a dog are hardly one and the same thing, at least insofar as the human mindset is concerned.
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#298340 - 01/14/08 10:55 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Drakein]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
First you said "a very common cause". Now you tell me it's only the 3-5%.

I asked "according to whom" precisely because abortion apologists love to pull the "rape card" every time. But the fact is only a very small percent of abortions have anything to do with rape.

Most abortions have to do with people being too stupid or too lazy to use simple methods of prevention.
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#298371 - 01/14/08 12:05 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
irchel Offline


Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 20
For me, it shall be in the hands of every pregnant woman if she wants to carry out her child or not. The child is nurtured by her body alone, so she shall have full power, and also the responsibility, over its life. Even if it were "my child", it doesn't work without the hard work of its mothers body, so that body and therefore that person has power over its life. Mostly, mother instinct will kick in anyways, when it doesn't well then it's better the little thing goes. The pain will be very short. i am sorry if this sounds extremely rude, but that's my view about it.

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#298375 - 01/14/08 12:17 PM Re: Abortion [Re: irchel]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
I agree with Irchel - I find it a moral question that every person will have to ask herself about. I don`t think there`s any wrongs or rights in this case.
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#298376 - 01/14/08 12:21 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Never]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Everyone should decide for themselves what is in their best interest, taking thereafter full responsibility for any choices made and carried through.

Slava Satani
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#298386 - 01/14/08 12:34 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Dead Roses]
ledbymusic Offline


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 63
Loc: SoCal
I believe that it is that one person's choice whether or not they should get an abortion. Plan accordingly and that question will not come up. If you decide you want a baby and then after getting pregnant you want an abortion, then you have your priorities all mixed up. Be responsible for your own actions.

We as Satanists are not here to determine what is right or wrong. We are here to live OUR lives as we see fit. As long as we are not breaking the law. If it is not your problem don't worry yourself with it. I would be offended if someone told me how to handle a certain situation. It is not their place. It is only mine to decide.


Edited by ledbymusic (01/14/08 12:37 PM)
Edit Reason: Damn typos and added a sentence.
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#298406 - 01/14/08 01:39 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
As I missed the last flogging of this particular animal I'm going to chime in.

I find it interesting that in your example that you say because John and Suzy Doe had sex knowing that no birth control is 100% effective it follows that any conception they have should be brought to term on the grounds that it's their responsibility. You've leapt straight ahead to some aversion to abortion full stop that makes it an option people shouldn't consider unless (I'm assuming) it's one of those rape situations which, as has been established in this thread, isn't even close to the majority of abortion cases. Correct me if I've read you wrong.

Given that we're all Satanists here (or at least purporting to be) then I don't see any merit in considering abortion from a morally absolutist point of view i.e. it's wrong because the bible says it's wrong, because that's antithetical to Satanism. Even when considering Satanic literature for a view on something one isn't saying "let me see what the TSB says, that'll tell me what to think" - we follow the TSB because its principles and teachings resonate with us and, in stark difference to right hand religions, are arrived at logically and rationally (which is why they make sense). So abortion must be judged in terms of its consequences instead.

The only situations I can think of where abortion would be wrong is if it were carried out against a woman's wishes or under extreme coercion, or if it would pose a threat to her health in some way. In the first situation there is no real consideration of responsibility to the responsible, as it's not the woman's choice. In the second situation clearly there has to be a view taken as to whether the risk (whatever it is and how severe it is) is worth having an abortion - that has to be down to the person having it.

The obvious maxim to apply here is responsibility to the responsible - my interpretation of that here would be "can you claim to be responsible enough to care for this child if you didn't abort it?". Personally I believe that children should be wanted, if they're not then it's not likely they're being brought into a situation where they will be cared for and loved as much as they could be. Of course there are situations where people get pregnant accidentally and decide to have the child, I'm not suggesting you have to be actively trying to make a child valid or something. But if you categorically don't want a child, or know you're in a situation where it's going to be difficult for you to raise a child (and potentially for you to resent said child for becoming a burden to you) then surely abortion is the better option? Yes you could go to term and put it up for adoption, but as you say yourself there are plenty of children in the care system who can't find homes so why add to them unnecessarily?

I find it telling that the right to life movement is rabidly passionate about defending the life of an embryo, but after said embryo is born and a living child they couldn't care less how miserable or deprived that child's is (or indeed in spending anything like the time and effort in supporting children post-birth that they do pre-birth). Even more bizarre is that pro-life and conservatism seem to go hand in hand, when conservatism is often opposed to social welfare of those that would be produced under a pro-life regime.

As I'm sure you can tell from the tone of my post the rights or feelings of the foetus don't count much to me - sure a foetus is a potential life, but more important is the life of the parents who are already here. They should take precedence, in my view. From a societal point of view I think it far preferable that people who aren't equipped to have children or don't want them have a relatively easy method of terminating them. I'm cringing slightly using it as an evidence source but an interesting conclusion drawn by the writer of "Freakonomics" was that the crime rate in America that was rising steadily suddenly began to drop for reasons that weren't causally linked to more police/better policing/tougher stances on crime etc. Instead the author concluded that, post Roe vs Wade, the children who would have been born in disadvantaged families and more likely to commit crime were being aborted rather than born, and where the crime-committing adults should be there was now a gap. I'm not sure if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

So there you go, my $0.02 (non-refundable or transferable).
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#298410 - 01/14/08 01:47 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
If I was the ruler of the world, there would be no abortions at all.

This would be because every person would be sterilized at early age. Reproduction would be a privilege, not a right.

If a couple wants to have a baby, they should first prove they have enough maturity and intelligence to produce and rise a healthy child. If they prove to be worthy, their sterilizations are temporarily reverted.

But of course, this is just a silly science fiction fantasy of mine. I don't rule the world...


yet!


Edited by Tha_Pig (01/14/08 03:24 PM)
Edit Reason: Smiles added to make clear it's a joke
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#298413 - 01/14/08 01:54 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
 Originally Posted By: Tha_Pig
But of course, this is just a silly science fiction fantasy of mine. I don't rule the world...


yet!


In my previous post I refrained from inserting my views on a world where pregnancy was only possible via licence, as I'm also in the camp of people who thinks that procreation isn't a right (hence why I also don't believe in publicly funded fertility treatment).
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"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

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#298414 - 01/14/08 01:57 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
ledbymusic Offline


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 63
Loc: SoCal
So what would it take to put you in that position. I vote Tha_Pig for president.

Hey, you have to start somewhere right?

HS!
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#298540 - 01/15/08 02:33 AM Re: Abortion [Re: ledbymusic]
irchel Offline


Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 20
In all respect for thaaa piiiiiiggg... this would lead to too much genetic trash. Not useful for the human race. Only because two people show some "responsibility", that doesn't mean they're genetically fit and genetically fit together. Their child would be weaker than an average "naturally fought out" child - dna quality would decrease from generation to generation. No racism or eugenetics intended - that's just the reality.

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#298668 - 01/15/08 02:54 PM Re: Abortion [Re: irchel]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: irchel
In all respect for thaaa piiiiiiggg... this would lead to too much genetic trash. Not useful for the human race. Only because two people show some "responsibility", that doesn't mean they're genetically fit and genetically fit together. Their child would be weaker than an average "naturally fought out" child - dna quality would decrease from generation to generation. No racism or eugenetics intended - that's just the reality.


I didn't say the only requisite to have children was "to show some responsibility".

I said they should first prove they have enough maturity and intelligence to produce and rise a healthy child

A couple who is successful in life has a high percent of producing and educating similarly successful children. The system would be not perfect... but at least it is better than the currently used system, which is to let every retard and social parasite spawn a bunch of little ones.
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#298694 - 01/15/08 04:56 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
Philotechnic Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 745
Loc: NC, US
I say that all spawns of retards and social parasites fight it out to the death on an island, ala Battle Royale! \:D

That way we could make some entertainment from them AND they could win some fabulous prizes in the process!

Who doesn't love fabulous prizes?


Edited by Wolf Landon (01/15/08 04:57 PM)

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#298698 - 01/15/08 05:02 PM Re: Abortion [Re: tovasshi]
Saraflare Offline


Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 74
 Originally Posted By: tovasshi


2) Not all women can take any form of birth control they want. A good chunk of women cannot use hormone birth control, which leaves them the option of either sterilization or an copper IUD. Sterilization is difficult to get if a woman is under thirty and its almost impossible if shes never had kids. Most doctors refuse to insert an IUD if a women has never given birth due to possible insertion complications and the fear of a lawsuit.



My body does not respond correctly with birth control. The hormones in birth control make me a ragging bitch, and I always feel on edge. Birth control also gives me horrible cramps and usually makes my cycle worse. I've tried many different types of birth control and all have had the same effect.

Since I am only 18 I highly doubt that I would be able to get sterilization or an copper IUD. I have some other problems with my female parts that makes it next to impossible for me to get pregnant. (which is one of the reasons why I was put on birth control in the first place)

My view on this varies. I think every women who is sexually active should at least use some kind of protection. If you are responsible chances are you will not end up in this situation. I support abortion but I do not think it should be used as a form of birth control. It is up to the woman to decide if she is ready and able to have a kid.
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Bless me dark father I have sinned
I've done it before and I'll do it again
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Been beneath me all the while
Whispering sweet nothings
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#298701 - 01/15/08 05:21 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Saraflare]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
I mainly put that forward because I feel that information needs to be understood. Some assume that any women going into an abortion clinic wasn't being responsible or careful, "she should have tried hard" "done more". Maybe she did all she could and her birth control failed. Not all forms of birth control are 100% (even a sterilization can fail) and the none hormonal ones are less effective than the hormonal ones.

And then you have teenagers who were taught abstinence only in school and got dragged into the clinic by their moms...
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#298712 - 01/15/08 06:49 PM Re: Deeper questions. [Re: Nemo]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
That's awesome! The thought that cells are just a regeneration from many ages ago never occurred to me.
This is an interesting thread.
What is funny is that Abortion really shouldn't be the answer, it should be only letting certain people breed.
We don't start fires in the city then say-well which buildings should we save?

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#298719 - 01/15/08 07:44 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Philotechnic]
Chess Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 1473
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
I say that all spawns of retards and social parasites fight it out to the death on an island, ala Battle Royale! \:D

That way we could make some entertainment from them AND they could win some fabulous prizes in the process!


How is that any different, really, from what we have now? Aren't we all fighting it out here on this island Earth? Aren't there fabulous prizes for those who come out on top?

-Chess

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#298740 - 01/15/08 10:08 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Faded Offline


Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 31
My own thoughts are as follows: Do not take the general perspective of the Church of Satan as the oppinion of every satanist. Just like any where else there will be conflicting views.

I myself am agnostic in most of my beliefs, the reason I chose satanism is because it made the most sense to me.

In turn to answer your question, I personally believe that abortion is a matter of circomstance.

I do not agree that it is okay for a young woman to get pregnant every week and then go have an abortion just because. Satan stands for responsability as it says.

However, if the circomstances call for it, such as a medical defect that could kill the mother in child birth, of for some reason mental or emotional health are not stable, I think that abortion is just like any other situation, and if it must be done then it must be done.
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#298766 - 01/15/08 11:29 PM Re: You are older than you think. [Re: DickSteele]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12577
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
It is amusing how seldom anyone considers that a mother could be, say, twenty five years old, but her newborn baby is always about nine months old.

Young cells from old.

Young multi-celled organisms from old multi-celled organisms.

While bioscience has not unraveled the details regarding how the damages of aging are actually created, Aubrey De Grey has only been able to find exactly seven kinds of damages that result in what we call aging.

In his recent book, Ending Aging, he demystifies what those seven forms of damage are and offers multiple research avenues for repairing all of them.

Furthermore, MIT Technical Review which first panned his SENS program to actually repair the damages and reverse aging, held a scientific contest to determine if the claims that this was a pipe dream could stand up to rigorous review by a panel of impartial judges.

Not a single opponent of the SENS program was found to have a solid scientific objection, as was reported by MIT Technical Review.

Today we live in a culture dominated by the Baby Boomers who are now approaching retirement age. The effort to appear young is a multi-billion dollar industry.

It amuses me to realize that since when De Grey is proposing is possible, that it will eventually grow to the point where the multi-billion dollar industry to merely look young will turn to supporting a very real way to actually grow young.

It is amusing to think what will happen to all of the institutions and traditions of a world which has always assumed that as you aged you would have to grow old and die.

If De Grey is as right as it seems he is, there are people alive today who will actually grow younger as the cell-level damages we wrongly call "aging" are repaired.

The old will grow young until there will no longer be any old people at all.

Perhaps this will not happen in ten years or thirty years or even fifty years.

However there is absolutely nothing magical or mystical about aging.

It is the result of seven types of molecular damage.

We already have plans to reverse that damage.

I see this as inevitable.

This is probably the last generation of people doomed to die in less than a century of life.

We live in amazing times.

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#298792 - 01/16/08 12:39 AM Re: You are older than you think. [Re: Nemo]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
So what you're saying is you want about about 3.5 billion candles on your next birthday cake? ;\)


Edited by tovasshi (01/16/08 12:39 AM)
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#298801 - 01/16/08 01:14 AM Re: You are older than you think. [Re: Nemo]
Adveser Offline


Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 429
Loc: California
I too am a fan of Aubrey's work. Here is a link to a documentry about him I ran across a little over a month ago:

It is long, but good.

http://jwbats.blogspot.com/2007/08/do-you-want-to-live-forever.html

I can't wait to see what science has in store for us in the future!

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#298841 - 01/16/08 07:34 AM Re: Abortion [Re: tovasshi]
Vestiphobic Offline


Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Minnesota
 Quote:
What should matter is what you feel is right for you to do in your own situation.


This I think is really the kicker for the whole discussion. As a woman, I honestly would never want to put my body through either. They tell you to put it up for adoption as though pregnacy was easy! It destroys a womans body, and I only plan on doing that when I want to keep the little bugger.

And as far as abortion is concerned, I have been Pro-choice my whole life, but I never ever ever wanted to get an abortion. The women I have know that have had a really hard time healing afterwards, physically, but mostly emotionally.

In a perfect world, people would only have children when they actually wanted them.

Although, that might not be the solution, we are Overpopulated
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#298844 - 01/16/08 08:09 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
You said: “Probably the most Satanic approach to this issue is not to put yourself (or your partner) in that position in the first place.” I agree with that.

You asked: “So would this mean that it's up to the individual Satanist to decide where they stand on abortion and what's right for them?” I would say, “yes”. As with any other issue, we are each responsible for what we do; so, it seems to make sense that we have our own reasons for the decisions we make.

You asked: “Once you decide where you stand on this issue, is it really one of those issues (right up there with gun control) that would dictate the way you vote?” That depends on how important a politician makes the issue to his or her platform. If they gave their opinion, I have no problem if I disagree with them. That would not influence me…much. If they were talking legislation, that would be a different thing entirely. Frankly, I would not vote for someone, even if I agreed with him or her on an issue they were talking legislation about. My opinion is not everyone’s; and, no one should be expected to run their life based on my opinions. I will admit that a religious fundamentalist, even if they claimed it would not influence their governance, would not get my vote. I always assume a fundamentalist will lie.

You asked: “Is it really THAT important?” Not in the grand scheme of things. Not in my opinion, at least. Now, if I were a pregnant woman who did not want to be pregnant, it would be more important. Personal perspective comes into play. That is why I have no view concerning legalizing certain substances.

You asked: “Furthermore, wouldn't voting on a topic relating to someone else's life and body be interjecting your opinion when not asked?” There are many issues relating to someone else’s bodies that are voted on. I can think of seat belt laws, helmet laws, drug laws, underage drinking and smoking laws…to name only a few. We could talk all day about different forms of government that take varying views on personal responsibility versus legislation geared toward protecting not only others from our actions; but, ourselves also. Libertarianism, for instance, is heavy on the personal responsibility side. Liberals tend to fall heavily on legislating the actions of the populace.

You asked: “Any thoughts?” Yes. The very fact that you are aware of the complexity of this issue speaks highly of your ability to think. It is all too easy to grasp for easy answers. It takes a broad mind to accept that there are multiple answers.
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#298855 - 01/16/08 10:01 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Storm Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/30/07
Posts: 567
Loc: West Valley, UT, USA
Dr. LaVey touches very lightly on this subject in "Satan Speaks" while discussing the "Third Side Perspective". And through the "Third Side Perspective" is precisely how a Satanist should approach such a topic - just as Magister Nemo does below in this thread.

~Storm
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#298868 - 01/16/08 11:44 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Storm]
DaggerJack Offline


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 88
Loc: California, USA
Male birth control was mentioned earlier, and, to my knowledge, vasectomies are reversible and both them and the reversing procedures are safer than the combined effects of hormonal birth control on the female body.

SO we don't need to find a way to make females temporarily infertile. We have a way to do it to males.

I am personally of the opinion that seeing as the male is the one doing the transmitting, and the females receiving, it's a lot easier to turn off the transmitter than to block the signal to the receiver.
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#298898 - 01/16/08 02:59 PM Re: Abortion [Re: DaggerJack]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
Or we could just implement my master plan and make all men gay. Well, the attractive ones you'd want to have sex with anyway, the rest aren't a problem in terms of breeding.

What?
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

www.vampiretemple.com - are you one of us?

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#298903 - 01/16/08 03:16 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Scion]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Scion
Well, the attractive ones you'd want to have sex with anyway, the rest aren't a problem in terms of breeding.



Whew! I am safe then.
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#298921 - 01/16/08 04:01 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
Possessing as you do one of the most beautiful cerebrums I've encountered, my dear Roho, I would say not. You never fail to stimulate me.
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

www.vampiretemple.com - are you one of us?

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#298928 - 01/16/08 04:13 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Scion]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
...and start FUCKING EACH OTHER IN THE ASS!!! (Lewis Black)

Wouldn't the repair of the 7 types of molecular damage and the everlasting youth resulting from it be a bit... strenous on nature?

I mean, not that it isn't something the world just can't do without, a race of overpopulating humanoids (a race a hundred times worse than those who walk on all fours)...
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#298932 - 01/16/08 04:23 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Dead Roses]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
Only one solution, for the entire world:

Reversible sterilization at birth.

All costs associated with breeding payable before reversal.

Y~
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Autocrat of the Damned





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#298940 - 01/16/08 04:47 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Scion]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Scion
Possessing as you do one of the most beautiful cerebrums I've encountered, my dear Roho, I would say not. You never fail to stimulate me.


Firstly...thank you.

Secondly...I am always saying to my wife, I have a body to go with this mind!
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#298975 - 01/16/08 07:21 PM Re: You are older than you think. [Re: Nemo]
Malakuma Offline


Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 284
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
I just read about him in The Economist! He and other scientists are discussed in the article "How to live forever." The article mentions De Grey and the 7 components that Magister Nemo mentioned, as well as other research on ageing. Eating less (practically starving) has been linked to longer lives, atleast in non-human animals. Dr. David Sinclair seems to be doing some interesting experiments on the relationship between food intake and ageing and also the effects of resveratrol, which is in red wine.
There is also a small article on the Methuselah mouse prizes. The main article is online: http://www.economist.com/research/articl...ory_id=10423439

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#298988 - 01/16/08 09:18 PM Re: candles. [Re: tovasshi]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12577
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Probably not enough candles according to some estimates.

Same for your cake too.

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#298989 - 01/16/08 09:20 PM My suggestion. [Re: Malakuma]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12577
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
Get and read his book, Ending Aging.

The first few chapters go straight to the point and while the meat of the book may be a stretch for those lacking enough biology or chemistry background, many, many issues are clarified.

History is being made now, today.

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#298997 - 01/16/08 09:55 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
dragondancer Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 1546
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
Once you decide where you stand on this issue, is it really one of those issues (right up there with gun control) that would dictate the way you vote? Is it really THAT important? Furthermore, wouldn't voting on a topic relating to someone else's life and body be interjecting your opinion when not asked? For me it's not important enough to affect the way I vote, I don't care if a candidate is pro-life or pro-choice. Any thoughts?


There have already been numerous replies to everything you wrote in this post, so I am not going to reiterate all that has been said. It is of course an individual choice to be made, and nobody really knows how they would react when they are in the situation, regardless of their political spewing.

On the other hand, the question of how important a political isssue it is, I will comment on.

Think for a minute about how it was when abortion was illegal; a woman had very few choices if she did find herself in that situation. She could have it and keep it, have it and give it away, or go to an underground abortionist who might just kill her in the process. I think I would rather have abortion legal just in case.

That is my political stance. There are other issues that I don't think the government should have jurisdiction over as well. This is one where the woman should have the control, not the government.

Whether you are a Satanist or not really doesn't matter, each person should make that particular decision. I am not telling anyone they should have an abortion and I don't think anyone should tell me I shouldn't.

My opinion, since you asked.

~HS!~


Edited by dragondancer (01/16/08 09:58 PM)
Edit Reason: added a word
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#298999 - 01/16/08 10:04 PM Re: My suggestion. [Re: Nemo]
Rainy Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 31
Loc: US Florida Tampa Bay Area
I can say for sure that for a woman, going through a pregnancy is absolute torture. I was constantly miserable, emotional, drained, paniced, tired, everything. My body was being held hostage, I was being sucked of my life force from the inside out. I couldnt eat right, walk right, sleep right, or even think right. I really hated every second of it. And you dont even want to know about the birthing process.

If a women is sleeping around without any thought of contraception, and they end up pregnant, they shouldnt have the child anyway, because they have already proven that they are not responsible. Alot of times, the offspring from these people turn out much the same as their mothers, and we dont need any more people like that in the world.

If your contraception fails, can you know you were doing what you could to refrain from becoming pregnant, then I dont see how it is irresponsible to abort the pregnancy. You obviously didnt want the child for what ever reason, and you did what you could to prevent it.

Any woman who does not want to go through the horrible thing that is pregnancy should not have to. Thats not to say that giving it a chance and going through with it isnt going to end up being completely worth it when the child is born. I am happy to have expirienced pregnancy and childbirth, as I believe that being a woman, it is one of the most gender enbracing things you can do. Embrace what life offers you, when it is the right time for you to expirience it. I love my baby boy fully, and am completely happy and devoted to him. But I would never put myself through it again.
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#299004 - 01/16/08 10:25 PM Re: Abortion [Re: tovasshi]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Thank you Tovasshi and everyone else who has contributed to this conversation.

1) Good point. It may be more responsible to have an abortion than to and a child you can't properly care or provide for.

It was not my intention to suggest that the only reason for abortions is lack of responsibility. There are many reasons, I just chose not to explore them in the scenario I used.

2) Are you suggestion that abortion be used instead of birth control or just saying that the chances of pregnancy are higher for this group?

3) They could also use a diaphragm, FemCap, condom (sheepskin if they have a latex allergy), Sponge (re-approved in 2005), and there are many other spermicides besides nonoxinol-9.

4) I'm undecided, which is why I posted. It has been helpful to hear others' opinions and explanations.
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#299005 - 01/16/08 10:28 PM Re: Deeper questions. [Re: Nemo]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Extremely thought-provoking. A guess a mid-life crisis really is a wast of time if we're several billion years old (and here I was thinking I was 27) ;\)

 Quote:
What is the dividing line between life and death? What is a human being?

Do you think science will be able to answer this question definitively?
_________________________
** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#299008 - 01/16/08 10:38 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Thank you for your answers and for the compliment \:\)

I'm not sure I'm much closer to figuring out where I stand on the issue, but I'll continue to mull it over and will eventually figure it out.
_________________________
** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#299009 - 01/16/08 10:40 PM Re: Abortion [Re: DaggerJack]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
I agree that this method seems easier. Sorry guys, but being an ambitious single girl, I'm not that trusting. I've known a few guys who have tried to "trap" their partner by getting her pregnant.
_________________________
** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#299013 - 01/16/08 10:45 PM Re: Abortion [Re: dragondancer]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
 Quote:
I am not telling anyone they should have an abortion and I don't think anyone should tell me I shouldn't.

I totally agree with that statement. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
_________________________
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#299029 - 01/17/08 12:05 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1415
Loc: Banana, Canada
 Quote:
Are you suggestion that abortion be used instead of birth control or just saying that the chances of pregnancy are higher for this group?


Just saying the chances are higher.
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#299037 - 01/17/08 12:43 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Saraflare]
Maqlu Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 1673
There's another kind of IUD called a mirena IUD (I might have spelled it wrong). Apparently it's more user-friendly than the copper IUDs and it's commonly recommended to young women in lieu of a sterilization.

They last about five years.

I'm sure there are problems associated with them too, I just mention it as another option.

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#299046 - 01/17/08 02:45 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
 Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
I've known a few guys who have tried to "trap" their partner by getting her pregnant.


Dude, that`s weak!

Personally, I don`t see how legal abortion could be a problem.
If you don`t wanna, don`t! Atleast you`ll have a choise!
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#299050 - 01/17/08 03:54 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
 Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir
I agree that this method seems easier. Sorry guys, but being an ambitious single girl, I'm not that trusting. I've known a few guys who have tried to "trap" their partner by getting her pregnant.


From my experience it's the other way around (as happened to someone in my family).
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#299221 - 01/17/08 05:12 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Scion]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11561
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Scion
From my experience it's the other way around (as happened to someone in my family).

Me too. I've see it happen to a few guys, sometimes with the woman admitting it later. It's generally easier for a woman to pull off such a despicable act too, as a cease of taking the pill or sabotaging a diaphragm isn't noticable as wearing no condom. While I don't deny the existence of cases where it's the man secretly trying to impregnate the woman in order to keep her from leaving, I've never known of any cases personally.
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#299257 - 01/17/08 08:35 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Bill_M]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
I've known both women and men who have tried to trap their partner through pregnancy. The guy I know (not a friend, just someone I know from high school) poked holes in a condom with a safety pin. In the heat of the moment and possibly dim lighting I wouldn't inspect the condom, so I can't say the girl should have known better. ... but that's also one of the reasons for using 2 methods of contraception.
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#299295 - 01/18/08 12:53 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
hellbent666 Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Colorado
If you are un able to take care of a child or not even willing then you should utilize the many methods of birth control. I've never had a condom break in all the years I've been having sex. Responsability to the responsable!

I on the other hand will never be ready for a child so I'm just gonna go get fixed and thus fix the problem.

It's also not my Uterus, so do whatever the hell you want with it just don't use it to remedy your fuck ups due to promiscuity. The whoops I'm pregnant so now I'm gonna go get an abortion complex is far too prevelant. Abortion should only be used as a last resort. It should never be used as a $500.00 contraceptive!

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#299298 - 01/18/08 01:04 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
The Satanic stance on this would be up to the individual. I know that Dr. LaVey had his own thoughts on this which he presented in Satan Speaks.

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#299851 - 01/20/08 11:42 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Maqlu]
Seeker Of Wisdom Offline


Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Buckholts, Tx
 Originally Posted By: Maqlu
There's another kind of IUD called a mirena IUD (I might have spelled it wrong). Apparently it's more user-friendly than the copper IUDs and it's commonly recommended to young women in lieu of a sterilization.

They last about five years.

I'm sure there are problems associated with them too, I just mention it as another option.


My mate had one of those put in after she gave birth to our daughter. It has worked wonders and is alot more convenient of a birth control than a condom or the pill. I'd highly recommend it and it does last for 5 years, given nothing goes wrong.
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#299871 - 01/20/08 12:40 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Seeker Of Wisdom]
Muse Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 586
Loc: In Your Dreams
The risks associated with an IUD include infection, perforation of the cervix and/or uterus during "rough" sex, and hemorrhage. Also, if a woman has a weight gain or loss of 10 pounds or more, she should be re-fit for her IUD (as with a diaphragm). Women may also experience more severe cramping during her menstrual cycle with an IUD in place. I realize that an IUD may be a last resort for women who cannot take hormones, just make sure that you or your loved one knows the risks that are associated and do what you can to protect against them.

Just a little unsolicited free medical advice. Next time, I'm sending a bill!
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#300261 - 01/21/08 09:04 PM Re: Abortion [Re: tovasshi]
Top Cat Offline


Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
A point of view that I find both agreeable and realistic.
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#300270 - 01/21/08 09:59 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir


4) I'm undecided, which is why I posted. It has been helpful to hear others' opinions and explanations.



“I am undecided”. Would it surprise you if I suggested that this is the wisest decision of all…on this, or any other issue? Should this decision become pressing for you, on a personal level, you have no idea what factors will have to be taken into consideration. If you ask my stance on most issues, my answer will be, “it depends on the circumstances, the situation and which decision benefits me.”

Read page 30, in The Satanic Bible…The Book of Satan I. What difference does it make if the writer of the dogma is an ancient scribe, the present day Pope or me, at some arbitrary point in the past? People are always binding themselves with self made creeds, dogmas and pre-fabricated opinions. Until a concrete decisions needs to be made, “I am undecided” seems the only rational choice.

That being said, principles are another matter. May I share a few of mine? I and my family come first. For me, personally, this is a package deal. I am an individual. I have a life, separate from my wife and son and I am self-reliant. I also know that I need my family. That is my indulgence. I am also loyal to my tribe. I am clannish. If someone is truly my friend, I will not screw them over…no exceptions. And, I am most decidedly pro-life. With those principles as my guide, paradoxically, there may be times when life may be taken. I eat meat, but I love animals. An animal will die; but, I will try my best not to waste the meat. There may even be times, because of my principles, when an abortion may be the best choice. My sister has had 2 or 3. Because of her sense of shame, she has not told me, all these years later. She told my wife.

My sister is impulsive. She has made some bad choices. She could not afford the children she already had. She was in a very bad place when she got pregnant.

It seemed likely that the quality of her life, her children’s life and the new life that would result from her pregnancies would be diminished. Perhaps, ironically, not giving birth was more life affirming. I do not know. At the time, for her, that was the reality. A pre-fabricated stance on abortion may have been devastating.

Undecided…open to consider all sides of a given situation…not bound by creed… That sounds right to me. Hell, it even sounds downright satanic, don’t you think?
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#300635 - 01/22/08 10:16 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Yes, it originally surprised me that you suggested being undecided to be the wisest decision, probably because I'm so accustomed to having beliefs shoved down my throat. The freedom is part of what I love about Satanisim, I am free to be who I am (and the few constraints that exist are beneficial).

Thank you for sharing your principles. Your dedication to family and friends is truly respectable.

When you define "undecided" as "open to consider all sides of a given situation" it does have a bit of a Satanic ring to it. So for once in my life, I take joy in being indecisive.
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#300729 - 01/23/08 08:42 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Auge Offline


Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Germany
The message of pro-life is, that abortion is always bad. Pro-choice's message, however, isn't that abortion is always good, but that it is always good to have a choice, taking into account that apodictically true laws governing this matter can't exist, since we don't know what life is or when a fetus develops it.

Great discussion, the best about this topic I witnessed so far.
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#300733 - 01/23/08 08:58 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Auge]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
When I said I was "pro-life", I was not making a political statement. ;\)
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#300734 - 01/23/08 09:01 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Auge Offline


Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Germany
I didn' want to say you did, just summarize my own views. Greetings to your family. \:\)
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#300895 - 01/23/08 05:19 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Auge]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: Auge
The message of pro-life is, that abortion is always bad. Pro-choice's message, however, isn't that abortion is always good...


Actually, much of the pro-abortion propaganda I have seen paints abortion as a wonderful thing, a magical solution, easier as pulling a tooth and devoid of long term consequences. That's one of the things that bother me about it.

The other thing that bothers me about pro-abortion people is their reticence to call it by its name, using the euphemism "choice" instead. For me "choice" means eating whatever ice-cream flavor you want.

On the other hand anti-abortion people are equally ridiculous on their arguments (based on religious scripture instead of medical or scientific data) and they are equally afraid to call things by their name.
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