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#298276 - 01/14/08 12:44 AM Re: Deeper questions. [Re: Nemo]
Starless Pixie Offline


Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 63
Loc: Missouri
This is just my opinion, but I think abortion should stay legal. As for responsibility to the responsible, how often does one see a young teenage mother going out doing drugs and such instead of taking care of the kid? As a Satanist, I am against child neglect and abuse as I'm sure all the rest of you are.

Overpopulation is another obstacle. Often it it said " Don't abort! Give up for adoption! There is a childless woman out there who wants to adopt a little darling!" Yet there are so many children in the foster system, orphanages, and on the streets already that we need to think of first.

My husband and I don't want children. We have, however, discussed what we would do if I did get pregnant. We've thought about abortion, but also thought about the possibility of if(when) I do become pregnant if my hormones will allow me to go through with it.

One thing we are sure on though: If the fetus shows signs of birth defect ( I don't mean a missing finger or a cleft lip, something major like Downs Syndrome ) we will abort. We want to bring into the world a child who will be smart, productive, and contribute to society, not a burden to it depleting tax dollars in an institution.


Edited by Starless Pixie (01/14/08 12:45 AM)

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#298289 - 01/14/08 03:52 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Drakein]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3968
Loc: The Deep South
 Originally Posted By: drakein
 Originally Posted By: Phosis
"Responsibility to the responsible." A Satanist should likely not come across this problem, unless by pure accident. (Aka, birth control didn't work, AND the condom broke.)


Or rape, very common cause of unwanted pregnancies.


According to whom?
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You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
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#298290 - 01/14/08 04:27 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11532
Loc: New England, USA
 Quote:
I could see Satanism supporting both the pro-life and the pro-choice perspectives.
An issue of Trident once posed the question "Should Satanists be pro-life or pro-choice?", and my submitted answer was selected for publishing in the issue that followed.

I first pointed out that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are terms that people tend to incorrectly redefine. The only thing these terms answer is where one stands on the issue of abortion LAWS: pro-life people want laws that prohibit abortion, pro-choice people don't. Again, that's ALL that these two terms are supposed to mean. They have nothing to do with what decision the individual might make if placed in the situation. Furthermore you have the problem that "where life begins" is a philosophical question.

 Quote:
So would this mean that it's up to the individual Satanist to decide where they stand on abortion and what's right for them?

Since "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are purely political stances, and since the Church of Satan does not hold a particular political view (it's left up to the individuals to decide for themselves), the answer is yes.

Though when it comes to the subject of abortion in general, I think Tha_Pig summed it up nicely with his horse photo. Talking about it never gets you anywhere.
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#298333 - 01/14/08 09:54 AM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
spook show Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 356
Loc: under your bed
Magistra Blanche Barton touched briefly on the subject of abortion in her essay 'The Grand Conspiracy' in issue 129 of The Cloven Hoof. It might be worth a look if you can get a copy.
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#298334 - 01/14/08 10:08 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
Drakein Offline


Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 62
According to RAINN, not regarding the rest of the world, the recoded cases in the US is a low 3-5%, but still that means 3,200 rape related pregnancies annually.
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Gather around me, Oh! ye death-defiant, and the earth itself shall be thine, to have and to hold!

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#298338 - 01/14/08 10:39 AM Re: Deeper questions. [Re: Nemo]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Yes, indeed, Magister. Life does not ''start'' in any of those cycles, it is merely starting to evolve into something more intricate and complex (a new human being). But this fact does pull along another set of hairy questions, one of them being about the degree of remorse felt about destroying the embryo raspective to its current point of development. To put this simple: Squashing a bug and shooting a dog are hardly one and the same thing, at least insofar as the human mindset is concerned.
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#298340 - 01/14/08 10:55 AM Re: Abortion [Re: Drakein]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3968
Loc: The Deep South
First you said "a very common cause". Now you tell me it's only the 3-5%.

I asked "according to whom" precisely because abortion apologists love to pull the "rape card" every time. But the fact is only a very small percent of abortions have anything to do with rape.

Most abortions have to do with people being too stupid or too lazy to use simple methods of prevention.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#298371 - 01/14/08 12:05 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
irchel Offline


Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 20
For me, it shall be in the hands of every pregnant woman if she wants to carry out her child or not. The child is nurtured by her body alone, so she shall have full power, and also the responsibility, over its life. Even if it were "my child", it doesn't work without the hard work of its mothers body, so that body and therefore that person has power over its life. Mostly, mother instinct will kick in anyways, when it doesn't well then it's better the little thing goes. The pain will be very short. i am sorry if this sounds extremely rude, but that's my view about it.

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#298375 - 01/14/08 12:17 PM Re: Abortion [Re: irchel]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
I agree with Irchel - I find it a moral question that every person will have to ask herself about. I don`t think there`s any wrongs or rights in this case.
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#298376 - 01/14/08 12:21 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Never]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Everyone should decide for themselves what is in their best interest, taking thereafter full responsibility for any choices made and carried through.

Slava Satani
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#298386 - 01/14/08 12:34 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Dead Roses]
ledbymusic Offline


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 63
Loc: SoCal
I believe that it is that one person's choice whether or not they should get an abortion. Plan accordingly and that question will not come up. If you decide you want a baby and then after getting pregnant you want an abortion, then you have your priorities all mixed up. Be responsible for your own actions.

We as Satanists are not here to determine what is right or wrong. We are here to live OUR lives as we see fit. As long as we are not breaking the law. If it is not your problem don't worry yourself with it. I would be offended if someone told me how to handle a certain situation. It is not their place. It is only mine to decide.


Edited by ledbymusic (01/14/08 12:37 PM)
Edit Reason: Damn typos and added a sentence.
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#298406 - 01/14/08 01:39 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
As I missed the last flogging of this particular animal I'm going to chime in.

I find it interesting that in your example that you say because John and Suzy Doe had sex knowing that no birth control is 100% effective it follows that any conception they have should be brought to term on the grounds that it's their responsibility. You've leapt straight ahead to some aversion to abortion full stop that makes it an option people shouldn't consider unless (I'm assuming) it's one of those rape situations which, as has been established in this thread, isn't even close to the majority of abortion cases. Correct me if I've read you wrong.

Given that we're all Satanists here (or at least purporting to be) then I don't see any merit in considering abortion from a morally absolutist point of view i.e. it's wrong because the bible says it's wrong, because that's antithetical to Satanism. Even when considering Satanic literature for a view on something one isn't saying "let me see what the TSB says, that'll tell me what to think" - we follow the TSB because its principles and teachings resonate with us and, in stark difference to right hand religions, are arrived at logically and rationally (which is why they make sense). So abortion must be judged in terms of its consequences instead.

The only situations I can think of where abortion would be wrong is if it were carried out against a woman's wishes or under extreme coercion, or if it would pose a threat to her health in some way. In the first situation there is no real consideration of responsibility to the responsible, as it's not the woman's choice. In the second situation clearly there has to be a view taken as to whether the risk (whatever it is and how severe it is) is worth having an abortion - that has to be down to the person having it.

The obvious maxim to apply here is responsibility to the responsible - my interpretation of that here would be "can you claim to be responsible enough to care for this child if you didn't abort it?". Personally I believe that children should be wanted, if they're not then it's not likely they're being brought into a situation where they will be cared for and loved as much as they could be. Of course there are situations where people get pregnant accidentally and decide to have the child, I'm not suggesting you have to be actively trying to make a child valid or something. But if you categorically don't want a child, or know you're in a situation where it's going to be difficult for you to raise a child (and potentially for you to resent said child for becoming a burden to you) then surely abortion is the better option? Yes you could go to term and put it up for adoption, but as you say yourself there are plenty of children in the care system who can't find homes so why add to them unnecessarily?

I find it telling that the right to life movement is rabidly passionate about defending the life of an embryo, but after said embryo is born and a living child they couldn't care less how miserable or deprived that child's is (or indeed in spending anything like the time and effort in supporting children post-birth that they do pre-birth). Even more bizarre is that pro-life and conservatism seem to go hand in hand, when conservatism is often opposed to social welfare of those that would be produced under a pro-life regime.

As I'm sure you can tell from the tone of my post the rights or feelings of the foetus don't count much to me - sure a foetus is a potential life, but more important is the life of the parents who are already here. They should take precedence, in my view. From a societal point of view I think it far preferable that people who aren't equipped to have children or don't want them have a relatively easy method of terminating them. I'm cringing slightly using it as an evidence source but an interesting conclusion drawn by the writer of "Freakonomics" was that the crime rate in America that was rising steadily suddenly began to drop for reasons that weren't causally linked to more police/better policing/tougher stances on crime etc. Instead the author concluded that, post Roe vs Wade, the children who would have been born in disadvantaged families and more likely to commit crime were being aborted rather than born, and where the crime-committing adults should be there was now a gap. I'm not sure if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

So there you go, my $0.02 (non-refundable or transferable).
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

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#298410 - 01/14/08 01:47 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3968
Loc: The Deep South
If I was the ruler of the world, there would be no abortions at all.

This would be because every person would be sterilized at early age. Reproduction would be a privilege, not a right.

If a couple wants to have a baby, they should first prove they have enough maturity and intelligence to produce and rise a healthy child. If they prove to be worthy, their sterilizations are temporarily reverted.

But of course, this is just a silly science fiction fantasy of mine. I don't rule the world...


yet!


Edited by Tha_Pig (01/14/08 03:24 PM)
Edit Reason: Smiles added to make clear it's a joke
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#298413 - 01/14/08 01:54 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
Scion Offline



Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 753
Loc: London, UK
 Originally Posted By: Tha_Pig
But of course, this is just a silly science fiction fantasy of mine. I don't rule the world...


yet!


In my previous post I refrained from inserting my views on a world where pregnancy was only possible via licence, as I'm also in the camp of people who thinks that procreation isn't a right (hence why I also don't believe in publicly funded fertility treatment).
_________________________
All Hail Satan, for I shall ever be his mouth in this blessed and righteous Kingdom of the United!

"Don't you see? If the gays can get married then the whole institution of marriage will be destroyed! Society will crumble! Rivers will run red with blood! And Nazis will walk the earth riding dinosaurs!" Princess Clara, the unsung voice of the Christian right.

www.vampiretemple.com - are you one of us?

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#298414 - 01/14/08 01:57 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Old_Pig]
ledbymusic Offline


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 63
Loc: SoCal
So what would it take to put you in that position. I vote Tha_Pig for president.

Hey, you have to start somewhere right?

HS!
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music. Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)"

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