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#299010 - 01/16/08 10:41 PM Re: [even less to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: Discipline]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
I'm just saying, I can think of worse things to have to fight over.
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#299012 - 01/16/08 10:43 PM Re: Satanism in Canada [Re: TheDegenerate]
Magister_Lang Offline

CoS Magister

Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 5822
Loc: I-BLISS!
"It's a country wide good-guy badge."

Exactly.
HS!
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#299034 - 01/17/08 12:30 AM Re: [even less to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: reprobate]
Maqlu Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 1673
You're forgetting the Air India bombing, but I suppose that was more of a Vancouver controversy in terms of media coverage, and a lot of it had more to do with Hindu-Sikh tensions than anything else. They're not without their violent extremists.

That said, I have known many Sikhs throughout my life and I generally get along very well with them.

The kirpans in general tend to be small enough to be useless as weapons, and mostly they aren't sharpened, which is the main reason the courts have sided with them on the issue.

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#299036 - 01/17/08 12:37 AM Re: [even less to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: reprobate]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>I'm just saying, I can think of worse things to have to fight over.

So could I.

But having worn a uniform for a decade now, I wish I could grow a beard. But the issue of arguing over it is silly because if it was such a major issue then I could simply find a new job.

And I would argue my reasons for having a beard and someone wearing a turban are on the same basis.
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#299041 - 01/17/08 01:34 AM Re: [nothing to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: TheDegenerate]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Still, it ain't so bad.

I caught myself wondering about the guy in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province who wakes up every morning knowing everything going on around him is bullshit. Fuck the mujahedeen and all of the problems it brings. Fuck the jihad and crap-spouting imams. He broke the chain that Allah had around his neck and wants to get down to the important stuff life is really about.

The stuff you're talking about in Canada is a fucking cakewalk.


Edited by RandomStranger (01/17/08 01:40 AM)
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#299043 - 01/17/08 02:01 AM Re: [nothing to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: RandomStranger]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
I couldn't agree with you more.

I'm not in Pakistan, nor is that where this article stems from. It was not a pitiful cry, or meant to be a whiny rant. Just my perspective on an article I found, and thought to be interesting. You could name any person from any culture where life is hard that will overshadow the "issue" I presented here, but that could be done with any issue or point brought up on this website.

I am not trying to "talk back" or be a big shot here, just wanted to be clear about this. I was just making a very simple point about the good-guy badge wearing hypocrisy of government in general, and relating this to an article about Canada, which is where I happen to live. That's all.

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#299044 - 01/17/08 02:29 AM Re: [nothing to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: TheDegenerate]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
Hey! I was only joking about the "typing slowly" thing.

I pull that gag on lots of folks. If you're going to point it out, it's open game!
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#299045 - 01/17/08 02:41 AM Re: [nothing to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: RandomStranger]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Haha, I don't recall trying to point it out.

Maybe I didn't dispute it because it's true? ;\)

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#299075 - 01/17/08 08:14 AM Re: [even less to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: Discipline]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
And I would argue my reasons for having a beard and someone wearing a turban are on the same basis.

That may be.

Sikh turbans play a dual role. First, it's a symbol of sovereignty and pride, both mental and political. It's part of the uniform they wore when they fought and defeated their Muslim rulers, and it symbolizes that they believe in equality, tolerance, peace, and freedom, and that they've fought for those values. I can respect that. They aren't slaves and they aren't pushovers.

Second, they use the turban to bind their hair, which they are not supposed to cut. They consider hair to be a part of the natural body, a perfect creation of God. So they let their hair grow as a gesture of respect for their own bodies. Sure, this gesture is quaint, but it's not frivolous or crazy - it may be misplaced, but it's still something that I can understand and even admire.

The Sikhs have their share of idiots, too, but it tends to be in spite of their religion, not because of it. There's a lot about the religion that's worth a closer look, anyway.


Edited by reprobate (01/17/08 08:16 AM)
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#299076 - 01/17/08 08:23 AM Re: [even less to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: Maqlu]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
Ah! I didn't know the details of the Air India bombing. Thank you for pointing that out. I knew there was Punjabi separatist violence in India, but I didn't realize it had involved terrorism on that scale.

 Quote:
The kirpans in general tend to be small enough to be useless as weapons, and mostly they aren't sharpened, which is the main reason the courts have sided with them on the issue.

The kirpan is an ornamental version of the swords they wore at all times, to repel Muslim invaders. It's a vestigial trace of the 17th century version of "concealed carry". Canadians could learn a thing or two from the history and experience of the Sikhs, I reckon.
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#299078 - 01/17/08 08:38 AM Re: [even less to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: reprobate]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: reprobate

The kirpan is an ornamental version of the swords they wore at all times, to repel Muslim invaders.



Did I mention that I like the Sikh that I know? ;\) Their religion began as something of a reaction to the Islamic belive that their God is the one God. They offered a corrective by stating that there is simply one God. It sounds semantic; but, there is a huge difference in meaning and practice. Their's is a more chummy God.
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#299129 - 01/17/08 11:22 AM Re: [even less to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: reprobate]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
>>Sikh turbans play a dual role. First, it's a symbol of sovereignty and pride, both mental and political. It's part of the uniform they wore when they fought and defeated their Muslim rulers, and it symbolizes that they believe in equality, tolerance, peace, and freedom, and that they've fought for those values. I can respect that. They aren't slaves and they aren't pushovers.

My beard plays dual roles as well. First, it is a symbol of my masculinity that I feel I should be able to express, mentally but definitely not politically. It is part of my “uniform” when I travel on my adventures across the nation and other nations where I have defeated the rogue drivers of the American highway. And it symbolizes, to me, difference, strength, pride, and indeed freedom that I fought for those values all my existence. Plus, Vikings and Greeks would look silly fighting battles without beards. I am no slave and I am no pushover.

All, joking aside. Your points are based on the religious history, which is fine. But that uniform they have sworn to up hold was based on other history as well and is utilized to avoid being marked either as “rugged” or biased. A clean cut officer is good public relations and if the Sikhs can’t honor that then they should not become officers. It would be like a lady wearing a skirt in her duty uniform when it is too unnetural for the job. Or if a jewish officer was able to wear his kippah because of his faith. They all have traditions and they all symbolize something but there is a job that has to be done with a certain understanding that neutrality and clean cut is a major component of that job.

If it is hair related based on scripture then find a job that allows such groming. I find it silly to try to change a standarized principle in a job when there are many jobs out there that offer other standarized principles. You could argue because they want to be officers of the peace and make a difference. That is all well and good, but the job isn’t about displaying your pride in your religion and in fact the job should be religiously neutral.

So, suck it up.

I think you are just more interested in their rich traditions and history than you are on them displaying their religion in a non-religious job. If I am wrong then please example why police should be allowed to display their religion with their uniforms.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#299145 - 01/17/08 11:46 AM Re: Satanism in Canada [Re: TheDegenerate]
Dead Roses Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 93
Loc: Zagreb, Croatia
Tolerance, perhaps, but for different races and ''regular'' religions, be they white-light or just devoid of (published) atrocities (or more or less devoid, concerning the moslems and all the shit which has happened recently with their hand in it).

How would they not find a bald guy wearing a baphomet (someone for whom they ''know'', thanks to a large part of the media and their local reverend, is ''worshipping the devil'') suspicious?

People are lazy-assed idiots who would much rather have the (wrong) answers delivered to them via the idiot box than by reading a good, honest book.
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#299153 - 01/17/08 12:08 PM Re: Satanism in Canada [Re: Dead Roses]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Okay Dead Roses, I see your point, (though it is stretched thin by what I said earlier, about Canada promoting tolerance to EVERYONE, yes, even a "scary looking guy" wearing a Baphomet.)

But when it happens AGAIN in the EXACT SAME WAY, it seems to me, a problem.


This is copied from
http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html


WELCOME TO CANADA

By Michael Rose, Diana DeMagis, and Robert A. Lang


I knew I had a problem when the customs officer said, “I remember you.”

After having spent a tiring day on planes and in airports, I was ready to get my vacation started. One last hurdle—would I be hassled by the Customs & Immigration people yet again? After going through the initial customs checkpoint, where my documents were checked, I was instructed to go to immigration. The woman in immigration asked me why I was coming to Canada.

“To visit friends,” I replied.

“How long will you be here?” she asked.

“Ten days.”

“And you already have a return ticket?”

I showed her my return ticket.

“Do you have a criminal record?”

I told her that I did not.

“Are you sure?” she asked insistently.

Thinking that this was quite possibly the most idiotic thing I’d heard in weeks, I told her that I was quite sure about my lack of a criminal record.

“What will you be doing?”

“Pretty much just hanging around with my friends.” I replied

“And that’s all—nothing else?”

Growing a bit exasperated with this inane questioning, I said that I might go shopping at some point during my stay. At this point, I was sent back to customs for a baggage check. The officer conducting the baggage check was more polite than the woman at immigration. In one of my bags, he found a book containing the text of a ritual which we were going to be performing.

He asked, “You’re doing another ceremony?”

I said, “Yes.” It wasn’t really any of his business, but what could I say, as he was looking at the text of the ceremony? He told me to repack my bag and walked away. A few minutes later, I was sent back to immigration. After waiting a bit, I was called back into the same office and confronted by the same woman.

“You lied to us,” she flatly asserted.

“About what?”

“You came here to perform religious ceremonies,” she said, eyes blazing—a prosecutor who had caught a defendant in deceptive testimony.

I wanted very much to tell her that my religious activities were none of her damned business, but instead, I smiled and firmly stated, “No, I came here to see my friends. Would you expect me to report to you that I might attend a church service in Canada?”

“Well, no.” Her disappointment was clear.

“It’s the same thing,” I affirmed.

“But you are going to be conducting your ceremonies. You should have told us that you were here for that.” She was looking for some leverage.

“I am not here for that,” I countered. “One night out of the nine I will be here will involve that ceremony. My purpose here is to visit my friends.”

She grudgingly acknowledged that I had a point and went on to the inevitable questions about my hosts. I provided the information they requested and informed these officials that my friends would be waiting here at the airport, should they wish to confirm any of this.

“Wait here,” she said.

The plane arrived at the same time we did—7:15 p.m., on time. We watched, patiently, for the first 45 minutes, as passengers from Michael’s flight filed through the Customs/Immigration doors. Half an hour later, out strode the inevitable immigration officers—one female with an agenda and the other male, who held back somewhat closer to the doors.

The prissy looking bitch, clutching a notepad and acting as if she were a doctor calling in a patient who showed up late for their scheduled appointment, shouted “Is Robert and Diane here?”

“Yes,” Robert shouted in retort. “We’re becoming accustomed to this by now!”

She responded, “Are you here for Michael Rose?”

“Yes we are.” We had bridged about half the distance between us by this point. I could see those eyes, the eyelids opened just a bit too far, pupils dilated—the general look of fanaticism.

She pounced on us verbally, “And just where is this Satanic Mass supposed to be taking place?”

The rest of the people in the airport turned around, gawked, and began listening to this public interrogation. Obviously, I thought, there would be no tact or respect of privacy with this one. Both of our tempers beginning to flare.

“Excuse me! What appears to be the problem here?” Robert came back at her. “Why are we interrogated every time he visits us?”

“Do you have an address?”

“Yes, we have an address, and we pay taxes too, which in turn pays your salary,” I added as sarcastically as I dared. We were made to show ID, proving that we were indeed Canadians, and that we had an address. I ventured a query, “Why is it that he is always held up when trying to visit us?”

“Well,” she retorted, “he is not a Canadian citizen and has no right to enter the country. And, besides, he was misleading us, as he told us he was here for a shopping spree!”

“What are you talking about,” I snapped. “He’s here to visit us. Why is it such a problem? Is it because he’s a large and scary looking man?”

“Or is it his religion?” Robert added suavely. At this point she must have realized where we could head with this. Canada does not yet officially endorse the persecution of minority religions.

“Oh no it’s nothing like that,” she said hastily. “Thank you. He’ll be out in just a few minutes.” She and her silent back-up turned and left.

Another 15 minutes later, Michael finally emerged—annoyed, but otherwise unscathed.

When “Miss Immigration” returned, she took my documents, made copies of them and issued me a temporary pass which, she said, I must have with me at all times. Recollections of films wherein Gestapo or KGB agents perennially asked for “your papers” flashed across my mind. She then assured me that my religion had nothing to do with these hassles—it was what they had to do to everyone.

I thought that she protested too much on the question of the religious motivation for these hassles, and I knew that not everyone had gone through this much trouble to get into the country. But, not wanting to be tossed out after having just arrived, I smiled and said, “I ask nothing more than to be treated just as every other American entering Canada.”

She seemed to miss the irony.

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#299161 - 01/17/08 12:54 PM Re: [even less to do with] Satanism in Canada [Re: Discipline]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I think you are just more interested in their rich traditions and history than you are on them displaying their religion in a non-religious job. If I am wrong then please example why police should be allowed to display their religion with their uniforms.

You're right, it's the history and traditions I'm interested in. As to the uniform question, I don't have strong opinions either way. I'm just glad they care enough about enforcing our laws that it's an issue at all. It shows they're enthusiastic about living in our society, with our laws and our political way of life. I can respect their position, even if I'm not convinced by it.


Edited by reprobate (01/17/08 12:57 PM)
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