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#299291 - 01/18/08 12:41 AM Revenge vs. Productivity
hellbent666 Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Colorado
I have been mulling this topic around in my head for days now and I thought it would totally be appropriate to post here.

A friend and I were discussing the concept of eye for an eye and he quoted Ghandi who said " An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" or something to that effect. And I couldn't agree more!

When a disagreemnet comes up with men their first reaction if they're unfamiliar with how to deal with stress or confrontation is to automatically fight about it. Men are not usually the type to discuss their problems. My philosophy with violence is that if you can't talk reason into someone then fighting about it physically isn't going to accomplish anything either. And that example right there is why I think revenge is counter productive.

Onto a touchier subject....The Death Penalty! Does death justify death? I don't think so. I think it's worse for someone to spend their entire life in prison and usually justice is dealt out by the in-mates. What kind of image does that protray to our society? That people can't kill but our government can? I'm not some tree hugging hippy Satanist but this sounds counter productive to me as well. If we really cared about murder so much then we would make them suffer instead of letting them take the easy way out.

Do two wrongs make a right? I think not. If someone fucks you over then you fuck them over back chances are they will want to yet again return the favor, it sounds like a vicious cirlce of counter productivity! What ever happened to accepting loss? I am all for symbolically destroying them in the ritual chamber because that is a effective way to handle stress and possibly will some change into action but to actually exact revenge sounds silly. No amount of violence will ever cure stupid.

What do you guys and gals think?

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#299296 - 01/18/08 12:59 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
 Quote:
A friend and I were discussing the concept of eye for an eye and he quoted Ghandi who said " An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" or something to that effect. And I couldn't agree more!


So... if someone intentionally harms you, what do you do?

 Quote:
If someone fucks you over then you fuck them over back chances are they will want to yet again return the favor, it sounds like a vicious cirlce of counter productivity!


Probably. If you idea of "revenge" is giving a slap in the wrist, he will keep coming back to screw you over again.

In my case I'll make sure my retaliation leaves him in no shape to cross my path again.
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#299297 - 01/18/08 01:04 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Powaqqatsi Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 396
Loc: Hungary
A vicious circle is broken when the offender is removed from the scene.

A death penalty is not really about penalizing the guilty in my opinion. It is the healthy reaction of the immune system of the society.

You cannot reason with everyone as you cannot convince a cancerous growth only with kind words to please stop killing the patient.

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#299300 - 01/18/08 01:12 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
WolfMoon Offline


Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 735
This all depends on circumstance, really. The whole point of the Destruction Ritual is to release built-up emotions you may feel for someone who has wronged you in some way. Dwelling on hate will get you nowhere. We agree on this. However, "eye for an eye" comes down to survival. If someone attacks you, it is in your best interest to defend yourself.

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#299301 - 01/18/08 01:26 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
RandomStranger Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/09/05
Posts: 2770
Loc: Here.
 Quote:
If someone fucks you over then you fuck them over back chances are they will want to yet again return the favor, it sounds like a vicious cirlce [sic] of counter productivity! What ever happened to accepting loss?


If you already know the answers to what you are looking for, what do other people's opinions matter to you?
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#299302 - 01/18/08 01:28 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Funny words coming from a Satanist. I take vengeance on my enemies. If they attempt to destroy me, I will turn them into a lump of shit; better them then me. Violence should be avoided at all costs, I agree, but we live in reality. In reality, these things can sometimes prove to be unavoidable, so instead of laying down like a whining bitch, I will fight.

I can see why you think people should rot in prison; I agree. It is cheaper for the government that way as well. It is a shame that our tax dollars support these shit-heads, but again, it costs less then if they were all to be put to death. Also, some who are accused and locked away are innocent, so to have a "Kill 'em all" policy is not the greatest idea.

However, as you might be aware, Satanists in general believe in eye for an eye. I sure as hell do. If someone kills, be it animal or man, I DO think they are scum (depends on the situation...in self defense from an attacker, I can see that. But cat in a microwave?) and should be put to death, certainly.

You are right, revenge can create more revenge, but take heed of these quotes;



"Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other!; smite him hip and thigh, for self preservation is the highest law!"

"He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog!"

"Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom - with compound interest liberally added thereunto! Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, aye four-fold, a hundred-fold! Make yourself a terror to your adversary, and when he goeth his way, he will possess much additional wisdom to ruminate over. Thus shall you make yourself respected in all walks of life, and your spirit - your immortal spirit - shall live, not in an intangible paradise, but in the brains and sinews of those whose respect you have gained."



And as Tha_Pig said, revenge should be something to frighten your enemy, something to make him never fuck with you again.

This should answer the basis for your entire post. I do believe in revenge, I do believe in eye for an eye, and I do believe in death to who those who would cause death. End of story.


Edited by Phosis (01/18/08 01:29 AM)

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#299305 - 01/18/08 02:37 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
I am curious as to where you learned to have this view.

Perhaps as you where once on the receiving end of some justice you now have an aversion to it.

For me justice is revenge the two are the same, punishment is there for a reason to stop wrongs from being repeated.

If everyone adhered to Lex Talionis crime would decrease dramatically and you would have to be a special type of idiot to commit a crime whereas today crimes are committed with very little consequence.

The death penalty is just that, a penalty. Your government kills people that have killed its that simple.


Edited by shadowraven213 (01/18/08 02:44 AM)
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#299308 - 01/18/08 03:12 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: TheDegenerate]
Trau Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Virginia
 Originally Posted By: Phosis
I can see why you think people should rot in prison; I agree. It is cheaper for the government that way as well. It is a shame that our tax dollars support these shit-heads, but again, it costs less then if they were all to be put to death.


I haven't studied the numbers on this, but I'm not sure I understand how supporting someone in prison over an extended period of time could be cheaper than executing them. I would think that execution would save quite a bit of money.

I think once someone demonstrates they are destructive to society, and it is evident they will remain so (repeat offenders, rapists, pediphiles) then society has an obligation to protect itself by eliminating them. Giving someone a warm bed, three meals, free legal representation, educational benefits, and medical care gets awfully expensive to the tax payer.

Regarding revenge: You're right about violence - sometimes it can't be avoided. Revenge can come in many different forms, but sometimes a guy just needs a good ass-whoopin'!
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#299309 - 01/18/08 03:20 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: TheDegenerate]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
 Originally Posted By: Phosis

I can see why you think people should rot in prison; I agree. It is cheaper for the government that way as well. It is a shame that our tax dollars support these shit-heads, but again, it costs less then if they were all to be put to death. Also, some who are accused and locked away are innocent, so to have a "Kill 'em all" policy is not the greatest idea.


Is it really cheaper for the government to keep these people in jail? Huh... I'd not heard that. If it is, I can think of a few ways they could offset the costs of the death penalty.

Personally, I'm all for the death penalty. Yes, I know it's possible for innocent people to be put to death (I won't start the argument about how often that happens though). It's not a 100% infallible, airtight, waterproof, perfect system. But here is where I think folks get into trouble - it's never going to be a perfect system and by striving for "perfect" rather than "best", some solutions are deemed bad or are overlooked altogether.... Solutions that may be heaps more effective all around but may be less palatable to a few, particularly vocal humaniacs.

And I think calling the fact that my tax dollars pay for an inmate's life a "shame" is a pretty gentle euphemism.
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#299315 - 01/18/08 04:03 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Shade]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
I could be wrong about this, but it has come up in conversations, and it is apparently very costly to get through the red tape of execution, as opposed to throwing them in a cell. If it was dirt cheap, and the accused were proven at great lengths to be dead guilty, then get rid of them.

Okay, not a shame...a travesty. Call it what you will, it sucks.


EDIT: some food for thought, found in about two minutes of "research" (typing something into google)

http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

http://www.deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=cost


Edited by Phosis (01/18/08 04:07 AM)

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#299317 - 01/18/08 04:38 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: TheDegenerate]
Shade Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 6135
Loc: A Trailer Park
 Originally Posted By: Phosis
I could be wrong about this, but it has come up in conversations, and it is apparently very costly to get through the red tape of execution, as opposed to throwing them in a cell.


I wasn't arguing that it was costly, I just didn't know how it compared. I was under the impression that the death penalty was less expensive than feeding, housing, clothing, and guarding someone for an indeterminate amount of time. I seem to remember a figure around $25k a year for each inmate...which frankly seems low. And if you offset the costs of the death penalty with the value of organ harvesting and the like..... A side-by-side cost analysis would be interesting. But cost is not the sole reason I favour the death penalty.

Thanks for the links!
_________________________
"What happens in the shadow, in the grey regions, also interests us – all that is elusive and fugitive, all that can be said in those beautiful half tones, or in whispers, in deep shade." ~ The Brothers Quay

We're Just Regular People

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#299318 - 01/18/08 05:34 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
TheNaturalForce Offline
Banned

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 511
Loc: The Vibrant Garden
I fully support the death penalty and in fact think it needs to be used more often. Maybe reduce the prison population by 90%. Would save us some taxes and make the world a better place.

You CAN kill, there are many professions in the U.S. where you are licensed to kill. Executioner, Police Officer, Medical Doctor, Military Personnel... I'm sure there are more.

I hug trees and I am not a hippy.

If you are countering a wrong, then your action is right, therefor there are not two wrongs, only equilibrium or Justice.
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#299327 - 01/18/08 06:14 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Lust Offline


Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4214
"What do you guys and gals think?"

Different.
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�Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.�
Anton Szandor LaVey, The Satanic Bible

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#299331 - 01/18/08 06:35 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Mr Avarice Offline



Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 991
Loc: Scandinavia
My turn!

 Quote:

When a disagreemnet comes up with men their first reaction if they're unfamiliar with how to deal with stress or confrontation is to automatically fight about it. Men are not usually the type to discuss their problems. My philosophy with violence is that if you can't talk reason into someone then fighting about it physically isn't going to accomplish anything either. And that example right there is why I think revenge is counter productive.

Men are in my humble opinion, individuals, just like any lady.
And revenge can have a deterrent effect on a person who thinks he can get away with anything.
When I was 15 my class and I was away on a camping trip and I had decided to take revenge on one bully in particular, since the teachers were always taking his side ("He has trouble at home; show some respect!").
So I laced his soda with a healthy dose of T-laxative.
After he found out what I'd done to him he and his gang beat me up, but when we got back home he never laid his hands on me again and was a nicer person overall. He just needed someone to stand up to him, to show him that not everyone's a sheep.

 Quote:
Onto a touchier subject....The Death Penalty! Does death justify death? I don't think so. I think it's worse for someone to spend their entire life in prison and usually justice is dealt out by the in-mates. What kind of image does that protray to our society? That people can't kill but our government can? I'm not some tree hugging hippy Satanist but this sounds counter productive to me as well. If we really cared about murder so much then we would make them suffer instead of letting them take the easy way out.


I am not in favor of the Death penalty, but this is mostly because of the human factor. Mistakes do happen.
Look at this and this. The guy who enters at 00:41 and 04:10 explains it better than I can.
And while I do like the idea of them living in abstinence in jail, how could you possibly think that Death row is the Easy way out?





Edited by The Black Waltz (01/18/08 06:58 AM)

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#299334 - 01/18/08 07:35 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: hellbent666


What do you guys and gals think?



I think these two words should never be seen next to each other: “hippy Satanist”. My next thought is a question, and I mean this respectfully: Do you want to be the world’s bitch? Gandhi did. A bitch is someone who believes that it is their place to absorb the anger of others. It comes with a messianic complex.

Since there is a place in the members’ only section to discuss politics, and, it is counter to forum policy to discuss politics “upstairs”, I will reserve my opinion of the death penalty. You will have to buy a ticket to know for sure. BUT, I will discuss Satanism until the cows come home. There is no place for turning the other cheek. Lex Talionis is not optional for a Satanist. How it is practiced is. I agree with you that striking without thinking, and fighting over every little thing is counter-productive. It is also not satanic. Satanists act. Sheep react.

I have an annoying habit. If I scratch one leg, I need to scratch the other. There is a sense of satisfaction that comes from the feeling of balance. I have been this way since I was a child. As I grew up, I realized many people do this. Touch something with one hand, and feel the need to touch with the other. There is a natural desire for balance. Anton LaVey wrote that “God” is the balancing factor in nature. There is a universal need for balance; thus, an eye for an eye. The Satanist demands more. A Satanist is not satisfied until the balance is tilted in his or her favor: “Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom-WITH COMPOUND INTEREST LIBERALLY ADDED THEREUNTO!”
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