I have been mulling this topic around in my head for days now and I thought it would totally be appropriate to post here.

A friend and I were discussing the concept of eye for an eye and he quoted Ghandi who said " An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" or something to that effect. And I couldn't agree more!

When a disagreemnet comes up with men their first reaction if they're unfamiliar with how to deal with stress or confrontation is to automatically fight about it. Men are not usually the type to discuss their problems. My philosophy with violence is that if you can't talk reason into someone then fighting about it physically isn't going to accomplish anything either. And that example right there is why I think revenge is counter productive.

Onto a touchier subject....The Death Penalty! Does death justify death? I don't think so. I think it's worse for someone to spend their entire life in prison and usually justice is dealt out by the in-mates. What kind of image does that protray to our society? That people can't kill but our government can? I'm not some tree hugging hippy Satanist but this sounds counter productive to me as well. If we really cared about murder so much then we would make them suffer instead of letting them take the easy way out.

Do two wrongs make a right? I think not. If someone fucks you over then you fuck them over back chances are they will want to yet again return the favor, it sounds like a vicious cirlce of counter productivity! What ever happened to accepting loss? I am all for symbolically destroying them in the ritual chamber because that is a effective way to handle stress and possibly will some change into action but to actually exact revenge sounds silly. No amount of violence will ever cure stupid.

What do you guys and gals think?

So... if someone intentionally harms you, what do you do?



Probably. If you idea of "revenge" is giving a slap in the wrist, he will keep coming back to screw you over again.

In my case I'll make sure my retaliation leaves him in no shape to cross my path again.

A vicious circle is broken when the offender is removed from the scene.

A death penalty is not really about penalizing the guilty in my opinion. It is the healthy reaction of the immune system of the society.

You cannot reason with everyone as you cannot convince a cancerous growth only with kind words to please stop killing the patient.

This all depends on circumstance, really. The whole point of the Destruction Ritual is to release built-up emotions you may feel for someone who has wronged you in some way. Dwelling on hate will get you nowhere. We agree on this. However, "eye for an eye" comes down to survival. If someone attacks you, it is in your best interest to defend yourself.

If you already know the answers to what you are looking for, what do other people's opinions matter to you?

Funny words coming from a Satanist. I take vengeance on my enemies. If they attempt to destroy me, I will turn them into a lump of shit; better them then me. Violence should be avoided at all costs, I agree, but we live in reality. In reality, these things can sometimes prove to be unavoidable, so instead of laying down like a whining bitch, I will fight.

I can see why you think people should rot in prison; I agree. It is cheaper for the government that way as well. It is a shame that our tax dollars support these shit-heads, but again, it costs less then if they were all to be put to death. Also, some who are accused and locked away are innocent, so to have a "Kill 'em all" policy is not the greatest idea.

However, as you might be aware, Satanists in general believe in eye for an eye. I sure as hell do. If someone kills, be it animal or man, I DO think they are scum (depends on the situation...in self defense from an attacker, I can see that. But cat in a microwave?) and should be put to death, certainly.

You are right, revenge can create more revenge, but take heed of these quotes;



"Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other!; smite him hip and thigh, for self preservation is the highest law!"

"He who turns the other cheek is a cowardly dog!"

"Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom - with compound interest liberally added thereunto! Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, aye four-fold, a hundred-fold! Make yourself a terror to your adversary, and when he goeth his way, he will possess much additional wisdom to ruminate over. Thus shall you make yourself respected in all walks of life, and your spirit - your immortal spirit - shall live, not in an intangible paradise, but in the brains and sinews of those whose respect you have gained."



And as Tha_Pig said, revenge should be something to frighten your enemy, something to make him never fuck with you again.

This should answer the basis for your entire post. I do believe in revenge, I do believe in eye for an eye, and I do believe in death to who those who would cause death. End of story.

I am curious as to where you learned to have this view.

Perhaps as you where once on the receiving end of some justice you now have an aversion to it.

For me justice is revenge the two are the same, punishment is there for a reason to stop wrongs from being repeated.

If everyone adhered to Lex Talionis crime would decrease dramatically and you would have to be a special type of idiot to commit a crime whereas today crimes are committed with very little consequence.

The death penalty is just that, a penalty. Your government kills people that have killed its that simple.

I haven't studied the numbers on this, but I'm not sure I understand how supporting someone in prison over an extended period of time could be cheaper than executing them. I would think that execution would save quite a bit of money.

I think once someone demonstrates they are destructive to society, and it is evident they will remain so (repeat offenders, rapists, pediphiles) then society has an obligation to protect itself by eliminating them. Giving someone a warm bed, three meals, free legal representation, educational benefits, and medical care gets awfully expensive to the tax payer.

Regarding revenge: You're right about violence - sometimes it can't be avoided. Revenge can come in many different forms, but sometimes a guy just needs a good ass-whoopin'!

Is it really cheaper for the government to keep these people in jail? Huh... I'd not heard that. If it is, I can think of a few ways they could offset the costs of the death penalty.

Personally, I'm all for the death penalty. Yes, I know it's possible for innocent people to be put to death (I won't start the argument about how often that happens though). It's not a 100% infallible, airtight, waterproof, perfect system. But here is where I think folks get into trouble - it's never going to be a perfect system and by striving for "perfect" rather than "best", some solutions are deemed bad or are overlooked altogether.... Solutions that may be heaps more effective all around but may be less palatable to a few, particularly vocal humaniacs.

And I think calling the fact that my tax dollars pay for an inmate's life a "shame" is a pretty gentle euphemism.

I could be wrong about this, but it has come up in conversations, and it is apparently very costly to get through the red tape of execution, as opposed to throwing them in a cell. If it was dirt cheap, and the accused were proven at great lengths to be dead guilty, then get rid of them.

Okay, not a shame...a travesty. Call it what you will, it sucks.


EDIT: some food for thought, found in about two minutes of "research" (typing something into google)

http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

http://www.deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=cost

I wasn't arguing that it was costly, I just didn't know how it compared. I was under the impression that the death penalty was less expensive than feeding, housing, clothing, and guarding someone for an indeterminate amount of time. I seem to remember a figure around $25k a year for each inmate...which frankly seems low. And if you offset the costs of the death penalty with the value of organ harvesting and the like..... A side-by-side cost analysis would be interesting. But cost is not the sole reason I favour the death penalty.

Thanks for the links!

I fully support the death penalty and in fact think it needs to be used more often. Maybe reduce the prison population by 90%. Would save us some taxes and make the world a better place.

You CAN kill, there are many professions in the U.S. where you are licensed to kill. Executioner, Police Officer, Medical Doctor, Military Personnel... I'm sure there are more.

I hug trees and I am not a hippy.

If you are countering a wrong, then your action is right, therefor there are not two wrongs, only equilibrium or Justice.

"What do you guys and gals think?"

Different.

My turn!


Men are in my humble opinion, individuals, just like any lady.
And revenge can have a deterrent effect on a person who thinks he can get away with anything.
When I was 15 my class and I was away on a camping trip and I had decided to take revenge on one bully in particular, since the teachers were always taking his side ("He has trouble at home; show some respect!").
So I laced his soda with a healthy dose of T-laxative.
After he found out what I'd done to him he and his gang beat me up, but when we got back home he never laid his hands on me again and was a nicer person overall. He just needed someone to stand up to him, to show him that not everyone's a sheep.



I am not in favor of the Death penalty, but this is mostly because of the human factor. Mistakes do happen.
Look at this and this. The guy who enters at 00:41 and 04:10 explains it better than I can.
And while I do like the idea of them living in abstinence in jail, how could you possibly think that Death row is the Easy way out?

I think these two words should never be seen next to each other: “hippy Satanist”. My next thought is a question, and I mean this respectfully: Do you want to be the world’s bitch? Gandhi did. A bitch is someone who believes that it is their place to absorb the anger of others. It comes with a messianic complex.

Since there is a place in the members’ only section to discuss politics, and, it is counter to forum policy to discuss politics “upstairs”, I will reserve my opinion of the death penalty. You will have to buy a ticket to know for sure. BUT, I will discuss Satanism until the cows come home. There is no place for turning the other cheek. Lex Talionis is not optional for a Satanist. How it is practiced is. I agree with you that striking without thinking, and fighting over every little thing is counter-productive. It is also not satanic. Satanists act. Sheep react.

I have an annoying habit. If I scratch one leg, I need to scratch the other. There is a sense of satisfaction that comes from the feeling of balance. I have been this way since I was a child. As I grew up, I realized many people do this. Touch something with one hand, and feel the need to touch with the other. There is a natural desire for balance. Anton LaVey wrote that “God” is the balancing factor in nature. There is a universal need for balance; thus, an eye for an eye. The Satanist demands more. A Satanist is not satisfied until the balance is tilted in his or her favor: “Give blow for blow, scorn for scorn, doom for doom-WITH COMPOUND INTEREST LIBERALLY ADDED THEREUNTO!”

I don't like the costs associated with housing, feeding and educating (etc) inmates. The government spends too much of taxpayers' dollars in this area. They have one thing right in the middle east - it's called chop-chop square. Get caught stealing + week trial = right hand cut off in public. Murder + week trial = head cut off in public.

Maybe you could pose the same question to "another" board and see what they think. That way you could make up your mind.

The great revenge stories of literature are predicated on the notion that harm to an offender can satisfy the aggrieved.

Note that I'm talking about satisfaction, NOT "justice".

Satanism recognizes that even "evil" and unjust acts can be satisfying to our base nature. That doesn't mean that we must or should indulge in them. But Satanism understands that the drive for vengeance is as much a reflection of man's nature as the drive for justice or forgiveness.

Satisfaction is subjective. Only you, the individual, can determine what would satisfy you when someone harms you. The Church of Satan counsels you against doing anything against the law in order to get your revenge, but there are many ways to get your satisfaction within the means of the law. You can press charges and see your offender punished, if they caused harm. Or if they have been merely inconvenient, annoying, or imposing, you can use verbal humiliation. Use your own judgment to determine what's appropriate.

As for the death penalty, that's a topic better reserved for downstairs. The only thing I'd say about it up here is: Severity of punishment doesn't do as much to deter crime as consistency of punishment; and I, for one, don't want to live in a state that reserves the privilege of judging my right to live. There are historical examples of societies with legal systems that didn't have the death penalty but still had a way of dealing with extreme violent offenders that was both just and efficient.

I would not fight with someone who simply disagrees with me for the sake of revenge. And if I couldn't talk reason into someone, I would not punch them in the face either. That is not revenge; that is a waste of time- and being a jerk. I agree that that is not Satanic behavior.
However, if someone hurts me or someone I love, I will get revenge. If I am physically attacked, I will most likely fight back. I think there is a big difference here. Casual disagreements or random annoyances are one thing. Someone trying to hurt or take advantage of me is another.

I wouldn`t like hit someone because they had another view on things. That`s Christianity

But I am for physically punishing your enemies - as long as that`s what you will benefit from the most.
When I was fifteen, I was hit in the face by some fourtheen year old at school. As a teacher was standing almost in my face, I did nothing, just stood there and mocked him into hitting me again.
At that time, that was the best revenge I could come up with. If he had done it after school, I would`ve struck him down. At that time, that would probably be the best way to satisfy myself.

On the topic of penality of death, I find it a topic for consideration.
I`ll try to make a Pro/Con-list.

Pros:

- Scares people from commiting crimes
- Might get rid of some people that deserves the death
- Might feel justifying for the family of the insulted
- Give people the feeling that the gouvernement cares for them (pro or con?

Cons:

- Might be unjustified - get the wrong person, etc.

I couldn`t find more cons, and the seriousity of the pros make me wonder why anyone would oppose it?
Some would say it`s unhuman - Metallica sings "Who made you God to say I`ll take your life from you" and Gandalf says "Who are you to decide wether someone should live or die". These quotes made me think for a moment, but the people that are guilty of charge will most likely have rules unjustice of serious graveness allready, and should not be spared for the sake of humanity!

I think that we in Norway should get the punishment of death, for some cases of murder, for heavy torture (human or animal) and for pedofilia. I think that would make our would a better and safer place to live.
When it comes to the "rot in jail"-argument, beeing for or against Death Punishment, I suppose you`re not from around here.
Our highest security prison, Ila, is rightfully nicknamed "Hotel Ila". I would like to tell you about a case - in 1989, a Norwegian guy found guilty of murder and sentenced to prison until the judge found him safe for the society, were sent to cinema, only guarded by a 26 year old female police-rookie.
On the way home, he raped and murdered his warden.

How could anyone say, that the world would not be a better place with that?

If someone "fucks you over", there are several choices
you can take on the situation:

1.Are you hurt, offended, pissed-off, etc.?

2.If you get caught dealing out payback, do
"the ends justify the means"? Are you willing
to spend time in lockup, if you do shoddy cleanup
work, don't have an "iron-clad" alibi, etc.
If not, my suggestion would be to let it go.

As Magus Peter H. Gilmore said,"Never forgive.
Never forget." If I could possibly add to perfection,
then I would say: "Never forgive. Never forget. Learn
from what has happened." If you made a mistake or
somehow brought it upon yourself, then learn from it
and don't do it again.

Avoid the people if you possibly can.
Use the authorities and the court system IF and only if
it will help you and not bring you more
problems than it is worth.

How far are you willing to go?
(Obviously this is not a question that you would answer
in this forum, or put on Myspace!)

As far as death row inmates go, if they are convicted, if they
admit it, and if they "honestly show remorse" (whatever that is )
let them spend the rest of their life in prison:
but let their labor and activity inside support their room
and board-- NOT THE TAXPAYER!

If they (the death row inmate) "just don't give a fuck",
put their ass DOWN, put it down HARD, put in on the internet
or pay-per-view, and let all proceeds go to help the victim's
or victims' family or families.

If someone "fucks you over" you could always "flip the script" and be nice to them.
Make them lose sleep when they rack their
miniscule brain trying to figure out WHY?

And if you should decide to "kill them with kindness" they
will draw you ever closer to them. Just remember to
*acquire good recording equipment: camera-phone, etc.* so that
when you have that most coveted ringside seat to their utter
and total annihilation, you can get it on tape, and watch it
" OVER AND OVER AGAIN! "

YEE-HAW!

GCaesarWhiskers

Death is the great abstinence. Life is the great indulgence. No matter what "justice" is being dealt out by inmates, the prisoner is still living while his victim(s) are not. I say throw him to the chair.



It's not counterproductivity. It's self preservation.

I'm not a violent person but if a man shall lay a finger on me the wrong way, he'll be eating a fistburger with cheese.

May I modify one thing? Sheep react, Satanists respond.

Why should the accuesed so called "remorse" have ANYTHING to do with how they are sentenced?

How many serial killers and the like have "repented to god" the second they found out they were going to get the chair? (or rather, the needle) Or have we invented some kind of "intent meter" that can judge how these people are truly feeling? If a rapist kills seventeen babies, but feels pretty bad for it after, THEN it is okay to let him live? I don't buy it, there is a bigger issue at hand here.

I agree that revenge should be handed out with ones self interest in mind. No good Satanist would do something that is going to fuck his own life up in order to mess someone elses up; being tossed in a jail cell ain't living life to the fullest, last I checked.

And no, if someone fucks you over, and you are nice to them, you are leaving yourself wide open for further attack. They need to be taken care of, however that means, WITHOUT breaking the law, or putting yourself in a situation that will get you in trouble. They need to be shunned, never forgiven, treated like pathetic shit, and never even looked at again. They need to be made to FEAR you, not to look at you as some kind of ally. Treating them as such, even if you don't feel that way, would be deceiving yourself, and it won't get you your revenge any faster then if you just TAKE that revenge from the start.

I can only agree

Ah! In this context, you are absolutely right. A response is considered.

I don't mind the cell for life business as long as they are used as forced labor. I believe it is Florida ( correct my understanding if I am wrong) who uses inmates for most of their road work. THIS MAKES SENSE. These folks OWE society. Why the hell are we paying to have them hangout, watch cable, get degrees, etc. I had to bust my ass to be able to afford school and I am still paying it off. Now, i go out and rape a few kids and BAM! I get free college. Where is the logic in that. They call it rehabilitation. well hell, rehabilitate ME then, I could use a PHD and I won't even make the State pay for food and lodging.
Make them work. Fix roads, build housing, Texas and New Orleans could have been rebuilt 2 years ago using prison labor. I understand that the more violent offenders shouldn't be allowed off the prison grounds, so have prison run factories. For the hard core inmates who don't want to work, or are too violent...

They get shot and their family is sent a bill for the bullet .

Yeah, thats a very good point, Innominandum. If they have to rot in jail, and not be "put down", at least let them repay society, not the other way around. Agreed, on all counts.

Innominandum, that, I think, would be awesome. These people realy owe society something.

On the other hand, GCaesarWhiskers, if everyone would be able to admitt what they did and then not be sentenced to death, you wouldn`t think that would could be exploitet`?

I live in a state where the death penalty exists. I have been here a long time.

I'm not bothered by this in the least bit. And I am still alive.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

Ok.

And turning the other cheek leaves everyone's face scarred.

Well, "public remorse" would not apply to the killer of
17 babies. I would let them repent all they wanted while
the state flipped the switch. Who knows, their crocodile
tears might make lovely blue sparks!

When I refer to "being nice to someone to confuse them", by
no means would this be in the same vein as the Xian "turning
the other cheek". By no means! Rather my approach would
be to give them a lovely "Armani necktie" with one end around
a tree branch, and the other around their neck!

They put on the "necktie". If you hand this to them, you
wear leather or surgical gloves.

And then you walk away...



Phosis, I like the way you think!

GCaesarWhiskers

I'm a lefty pinko libtard, but I agree with this part of the Old Testament: "If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured."

That is about personal matters. If someone, after all your warnings, strikes you, by all means strike them back. Don't allow yourself to be a doormat.
Satyagraha does not work, people.

Now about the death penalty, things are more complex. But only because someone might end up innocent. And the punishment is irreversible in this case.

A confession would be required for either expiation or for
sentencing.

A confession must be given in order to apply for mercy.
However, a confession (in conjunction with a conviction)
would be necessary for sentencing.

Were it my court...

Consider the name "Caesar".

They can ask for mercy all they want, but unless
I was truly moved, they would have better luck
playing the lottery!


GCaesarWhiskers

Let me know when you run for office, Innominandum.

You got my vote!


GCaesarWhiskers

On that -

A guy sits in the electric chair.
Suddently someone runs up and whispers something to the guy who`s gonna flick the switch, and then puts a note in his hand.
The guy then turn to the guy in the chair and says: "I have some good news".
"What" the other guys say "I`ve been spared?".
"No" says the other guy "but you just won 20 million dollars in the lottery"

Let's take as an example a serial killer. Why should the government show mercy to a human that showed no mercy. This is Christianity at it's best, or should I say it's worst – always trying to be forgiving – and what it in the end manages to do is to be – merely hypocritical. Screaming ''look how good we are, we are letting the murderer of 50 people live''


- I do not agree with this. All under the banner of human rights, the lives of prisoners are improving. It is all far apart from the general idea of punishment – setting a negative example for the rest of the community to fear. What today's governments are doing is setting an example in how hypocritical they can be instead of showing how they sanction those who bring destruction upon the community.

When it comes to the methods of execution, most of them are designed to be swift. The electric chair is an example where this is not the case. Nevertheless, the idea of capital punishment, in my opinion, is more devastating to the condemned on DURING THE TIME WITHIN HE'S WAITING FOR THE EXECUTION, not the execution itself. The idea of hopelessness, the idea of ''whatever I do or don't do now – I'm going to die''. Solitary confinement is even better in these cases as it amplifies this hopelessness. If you would put a prisoner like that in public prison population, he might switch to ''renegade'' mode and try killing everybody else, because ''he ain't got nothin' to lose''.


And, when considering the U.S. model, how much sense does it make really – to sentence a person to 200 years? This is ludicrous. It's like saying – we are too afraid to kill you right away, cause then we are bad people, so we will invent a ridiculous punishment and do that to you instead. The same goes for consecutive life sentences.

So instead of punishment fitting the crime – you have a person living for FREE at an expense of people who DIDN'T do anything wrong.

I agree with most of this however- prisons are just damage control they do not rehabilitate.
The idea of jail or prison is that people go there, serve their time-they are suppose to pay for their crimes. When they leave they are still marked for life as Felons. This usually lands them in jail again.
The death penalty does not work as a deterrent even in the least as of yet.
The whole idea behind being sentenced to more than 1 life term is that because of legal mumbo jumbo, a prisoner may appeal 1 life sentence but cannot appeal another one. This helps to keep them behind bars.
Although it does suck that people pay for people to stay in prison, most people gladly pay to have these people stay behind
bars rather than have them commit crimes. Ideally prisoners would sustain themselves and their environment, however they cannot be trusted with certain materials. We are going to be in for a big surprise in the coming years. The study of genetics as well as nano technology as well as other technology such as with DNA may result in better convictions, and a reduction in crime. Really our public education system isn't any better than the prison system.

Has the old plot about putting alot of criminals on a lone island and then let them manage themselves, ever been tried out in reality?

Nice, Never!

Very nice!

*chuckling*

GCaesarWhiskers

I understand that a guy ends up in jail for stealing a car, so he serves like a year or 2 and then gets back on the street. But I really do not see a point in keeping people inside for decades. If the state already deems necessary to keep someone inside for e.g. 50 years then it also must deem that person well beyond rehabilitation. I mean, if you need 50 years to figure something out – you really ARE better off dead.



Wouldn't it be easier to just get rid of them?! – bang and they're gone?! No expenses, no worries, and justice has been served?!

I entirely agree with reprobate. Satanism is about honest, ol' satisfaction, whether you gain it from forgiving or raising hell. But one thing has ever to be kept in mind: Indulgence, NOT compulsion.

BINGO!

I agree there are many who are behind bars for life, who have never had a life don't now and never will-they probably should be put down-we do this to our animals that we love why not prisoners who are a waste in every manner? The problem is this-what if we kill someone who is indeed innocent? I say it is better to convict and/or kill an innocent person than to let a guilty person go free.

Ok, here are some statistics from some one (me) that just did some time in prison.

Supposedly it costs tax payers $30,000 a year to house one in-mate, the fiscal year starts in July I think. In-mates earn 48 cents a day if they owe restitution and 60 cents a day if they do not. Hygeine and stationary to take care of yourself and to communicate with family members basically takes up most if not all of your money if you have a "normal" job in prison. Better jobs can pay anywhere from $40.00/month to $300.00/month depending on your "job". Phone calls to your family also cost $5.05/call, but this is all what prisoners have to deal with.

I do not think that worthless human scum like pedophiles and rapists should be spared because of the cost to you tax payers (and me too now) but rapists and pedophiles get real justice from the in-mates that are there for other crimes. Rapists usually get raped, charged "rent", beat up, and in rare circumstances killed. Pedophiles deal with the same shit too. Murderers don't really deal with too much of any of that because most of them are not "bitches" or cowardly dogs. Bitch or punk are trigger words in prison too, if you don't fight when you are called either of those two words than you are basically validating your accusers and will be ridiculed for your entire stay. Basically what I'm trying to get at here is not everyone in prison is worthless and most fucked up people like rapists and child molesters "get theirs" in prison by prisoners.

I would like to know that I'm paying a small protion of my earnings to make sure that takers of children's innocence get fucked in the ass by big angry convicts and beat up on a regualr basis by "lesser" criminals. That is justice to me! I don't think they should be allowed the liberty of dying quickly. They should be tortured by the prisoners until they die!

It really isn't that much out of your pocket to pay to house a prisoner when you think about it. It also doesn't take much to put yourself in prison either. I think it's kinda funny how most of us "lesser" criminals basically paid to house ourselves in prison! Weird huh?! But you ultimately let your government charge you to house criminals so if you don't like the fact that U.S. citizens pay a piddly amount of money to house who you deem worthless, then do something about it. Stand up for yourself and don't complain about anything you need not subject yourself to.

I'm not a bitch and have never been. In elementary school I was picked on all the time but I fought those bullys on a consistant basis. I was never pushed around by those rejects, you win some you lose some right?! I do not advocate stupidity though and I guess for some of us stupidity is also subjective. I think fighting over name calling is stupid but a lot of my friends don't. Does that make me right or wrong? Who knows. I do know what works for me though. If you are that weak of a person where words are gonna crush your self esteem or hurt your feeling/s then maybe I should be paying taxes to put you out of my misery? Fighting usually just causes pain and dicomfort, rarely ever does it accomplish anything beacuse as we all know people are pretty stubborn. I've never come across a person ignorant enough to fight you over meaningless shit ever be deterred from kicking your ass again because you bested them. It doesn't always work out by "making examples" out of people. You do however have to do that in the joint otherwise you will be taken advantage of. No white person that minded their own business and didn't have a fucked up crime ever had any problems avoiding conflict.

I do however believe in stronger laws and I like the idea of punishment. I think the familys of the victims or the victims themselves should be dealing out the punishment and not our sanctioned goverment. Not everyone is deterred from crime even though the punishment is harsh because some people just do not care. Prison makes sense to me to house some people as they are worthless and contribute nothing to society. I don't think I should be executed because I got caught with some drugs! That is a rediculous concept. Punishment needs to be more severe but logical in application.

I got charges pressed against me for kicking this kids ass in middle school when he repeatedly called me names and was pushing me around. That kind of pussy mentality is common in Colorado and it makes me not want to fight people unless I have to because I did my time and am not interested in doing any more. No one except my family is worth my freedom! That is why I think some people have a problem accepting loss. My philosophy is sometimes it takes a bigger man to walk away than to engae in physical combat. If I have no ther option but to fight then I will but only then will it ever be an option. If I can kick you in the junk and then run chances are I will because self preservation is my main instinct! Plus people carry guns and knives and will pull them on you when they think they are gonna get their ass kicked. Fighting like I have metioned rarely accomplishes anything!

I wasn't asking for validation from you guys/gals, but merely asking your opinions. This is an environment where you are supposed to give your opnions! Excuse me for being curious.

It must be hard for you to share your opinions with us pricks.

I understand what you're trying to tell. But you're also pretty much saying that murderers have it easy in prison, or even have status.

Hellbent666

Seeing as you were cought with drugs, for me it would not be logical at all in prison. Maybe a fine, in worst case some road building or something.
But what you`re saying about the condition in the prisons in USA; it`s not like that everywhere. I wrote in an earlier post about how it is when you`re in prison in Norway, and probably in some other countries around here, to.

I think rapists and pedphiles should get fried. With NO POSSIBLE EXCUSE. Do that and you WILL die.
Spending a life in a prison might be worse, but it will not scare those who are commiting/thinking about commiting those crimes as much as instant death would.
I somewhat envy you for living in America - this might be because of the twisted look I get on the world through the news and papers of an american-loving society, but it seems to me that you have a gouvernement that ain`t just doing what will get them re-elected, but rather what society benefits from! Here in Norway, you cannot do anything that`s the slightest different from the commonly accepted ways before you`re corrupt, insane with power or something something!
Back on topic - you also said that one should decide ones own punishment.
This would`ve worked if everyone was pleasant, regretting induviduals that wanted no more than to repay their newly aquired debt to society as fast as possible so that they could go back to live their peacefull life with two cars, 2,7 somewhat symetrical kids and a dog which fight criminality at night. But it`s not. People, when commiting crimes, most of the times feel they are justified.
We NEED a strong gouvernement to redeem ourself - we need to be kept away from those who have done us wrong, `cause noone will benefit from having them around to do it again.
I`m realy for the penality of death! Realy! If you have planned and executed a murder - fry. If you rape someone, anyone - fry.
If you perform pedophilia - fry. Simple as that!

I'm going to be brutally honest with the way I see it. Personally I think it's all this "Humane" Bullshit. Getting a little slap on the wrist versus having a punishment that would make someone highly think twice before committing any crimes such as murder, armed robbery, rape, etc.

If you've ever noticed how the "human right activists" probably react to say the electric chair. It has pretty much in almost all the States been declared "inhumane".

Then you look at how all the prisons are actually overcrowded (majority wise that is.) Apparently if the price was far higher then the crime is worth, I imagine the crap load of criminals would decrease immensely. This all starts with that "humane" punishment bullshit pretty much. It's painfully obvious it's not working. Hell some have a better life in prison then in the real world. Makes you wonder, WTF is up with that?

Though I doubt we'll ever see the "Humane" treatment and "punishment" go away, and of course there will always be that one idiot, regardless what the punishment would be.

Unfortunately, the victims and their families are likely not qualified to be dealing appropriate punishment. Maybe in an anarchist society something like this would make sense, but there is a reason a judicial system exists, and that is why. You seem to have some conoluted, mixed up ideas about "how things should work" and it seems ironic coming from a former criminal. (and I would swear you have mentioned that AT LEAST once in every one of your thirty or so posts, even when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand...what up with that?)

Your end statement is yet another eye-rolling self-victimization. Many people here express many opinions that are questioned, or generally unliked, and are given way harsher treatment for doing so. I think everyone has been perhaps TOO kind, considering you called everyone here "a prick" no more then five posts before this one.

Since your post is about NOT taking revenge, and NOT believing in "eye for an eye" which is stated VERY CLEARLY in The Satanic Bible as qualities to have, how would you expect any other kind of reacion? Don't ask a bunch of Satanists if they agree when you decide that these Satanic values are not for you.

Having serial killers on the street is an aberration that both their victims and in the end the entire community have to pay for, so accidentally executing an innocent person, even though I think it's tragic, is a price that a community has to pay to preserve itself and punish those who are destroying it.

I believe that criminals sentenced to death could be put to use by serving as replacement for the animal testing which so widely practiced all over the world.

There has been a lot a pressure on the pharmaceutical industry to stop animal testing, and they did, most of them, but very little pressure has been applied to the scientific research facilities. In science animals are used as a replacement for the real thing – the human, they are used as only a model organism – with the human organism in mind. So why not use the real thing in the case of criminals that are beyond rehabilitation?

I think that the medical industry would benefit greatly from this.

The prison system is a machine. Its mission is far removed from what probably was its original purpose. Even that could be debated.

The doors of prisons all over the world are flung open for the redeemer’s. Capital punishment can't be that pressing when you have been forgiven by the ultimate judge and jury.

Most criminals were found with the cookies in there mouths, not just their hands in the jar. Most are guilty. The exception should not prevent the rule.

The other topic!

Never mistake self defense for revenge, but always remember the law allows a reasonable use of force, which to defend yourself.

When exacting revenge, I’ll use all means to satisfy myself, and keep myself from being imprisoned. I’ll spread rumors and gossip about you. If I have the means, you will lose your job. If I can, I’ll sleep with your wife. I know a witch or two that will ruin your life.

I’m not bound by ethics.

Which is what we did.

Your above post shows that you are intelligent.
That, combined with the fact that you began this thread with a quote from Gandhi, which was one of the cornerstones of a philosophy that is arguably an antithesis to Satanism indicates that you should not be surprised at the responses you have received...respectfully, for the most part, I might add. Strong disagreement obviously causes you some type of pain.

To knowing do something that will cause you pain...fairly consistently...makes one a...it's on the tip of my tongue...well, maybe it will come to me later.


I may have missed something; but, this is a board for Satanists...not "free thinkers".

If you had left the last paragraph out, this would have been a decent post.

Well I don't support any "victim" mentality no matter how real. If you and your clan don't have the power to take revenge, you deserve to become extinct. No fucking "society" will ever change that (except for to the worse). Every such boo-hoo story fills me with disgust. Revenge it or shut up. I'ts nobody else's business.

That act which they call "death penalty" is little but a ritual sacrifice of evil so that every spectator can feel good and empowered by knowing that they are now a part of the good herd, unlike that bastard which just fried, who is evil.

Death penalty is the shivering excitement of simpletons.

It doesn't solve any problem. It's outlandishly expensive. It has no preventional effect on "crime" as such (judging from the countries that are practicing it). It only serves the function of invoking the idea of a powerful state that can decide on life and death.

However, if you are a person who was wronged, I totally think that your "crime of passion" should be let off easy. Say 2-3 years only for really justified murder, of the kind that everybody will be able to identify with in a "hell yeah!" manner.

But if you have no such powers or passions, then it is really not the business of "society" to deal with this. There is a severe lack of predators to tax the surviveability of mankind.

Kill your enemy! Yes I agree. But don't submit to any lame ass idea of a social structure which is supposed to carry out justice, because they just won't. The power you submit to them through the religious act of praising their human sacrifices will only empower them to fuck YOU next time around, unless you are a really good little nigger for massa.

Hahah...
I have been saying that for years! lovely to hear it from someone else for once!

Max Faust:

I'm gonna have to agree with you on this one, Max.

You must be so proud!

I thought Satanists were free thinkers because we subscribe to individualism. I thought that we were a productive group of people hence the topic at hand. I though we were intelligent people hence the quote from an intelligent man. I thought that some of your replies to this topic were very well thought out and articulate but I think that some of you might also be holding back (roho). Think what you want about me but I thought everyone could benefit from this observation. Which is more important...productivity or revenge? Just because it makes you feel better or maybe makes the victims feel better or even society feel better does not mean that is the most productive avenue. Do we propagate stupidity or do we break the cycle? I think agreeing with the death penalty could be considered falling into another herd or a herd theory, but I digress. Your politics are for you to decide, not me. Thanks for the responses!

Ah, Mr. Hellbent 666, why is either more important? Do you feel it productive to mope about something that somebody did to you? Wouldn't that be counterproductive? That is why revenge is important. The level of revenge should match the action against you, but it should be taken. It helps relieve your mind of that want, that desire; and until you do so productive thoughts are normally put on hold or are not at 100%. So, revenge is productivity if it helps to move you forward. So Mr. Hellbent666, if a man smite thee on thy cheek, what action do you take? I personally am going to take revenge and get it out of my system, then turn the other cheek and dwell on it until it eats me up.HS!

Revenge makes me feel better.

And in the end thats all that really matters.

Productive? well now who's to say it cant be productive as well.

Heres an example, someone annoys me one day and gets his proverbial ass handed to him he may not annoy someone else with less finesse in dealing with said annoying person, he may even hurt him badly and physically.

So Mr annoying goes to hospital and drains resources Mr angry person goes to jail and drains resources Mr angry's children go into care and drain resources, all because Mr annoying didn't get what was coming to him in the first place.

Shadowraven213, providing a service to society by teaching idiots a lesson when they need it.

"Be as a lion in the path!"
Anton Szandor LaVey

First of all, taking revenge on someone doesn't make the pain go away. For instance, if somebody killed your loved one and you took your revenge on them, even after you had killed them – the pain because you lost someone you loved – would not go away.

If you had a chance to kill the perpetrator in self-defense – then murder would of course make perfect sense, but a successful revenge would still not eliminate pain. So it's kind of convenient to have the police running around hunting down criminals instead of you having to do it yourself – if there was no police.

Victim mentality in the way that people just stay victims all their lives and then try to project their pain on everybody else instead of dealing with it themselves – that is victim mentality, and that is something I do not support.

Avoiding pain can be done in a very simple way, if one wishes to do so – denying one's emotions completely. If there is no love – there is no pain. And as it saves one from emotional turmoil, it depraves one of joys of love. I personally do not want to deprave myself of any emotion, as it is emotion that brings joy into life, so of course I will also feel pain every now and then.

However, revenge is a dish best served cold, as they say, and there is a very good reason for that saying. I cannot afford spending 2-3 years in jail even if it is justified, this kind of behavior seems masochistic to me. There are many ways for vendetta, and not all of them include ending up in jail. Physical death is not the only kind of death one can deal as revenge.

Your principle would work if humans were scattered around some mountains. Your philosophy will indeed make the system mess with YOU the next time around, but that's because you haven't found a way to work around the system. Or you did, but you're not talking about it.

Today's organized community has many flaws, but it's a fact that people are organized in such a way. Seeing that there is 6 and half billion of them, and only one of you – it is pure logic that you cannot fight against them physically or in any other similar way. Work around the system! And if you ever can – make the system work for you! Brute force will not get you anywhere.

You talk about herd mentality, yet you repeat every cliché like "breaking the circle of violence" and "people can't kill but the state can" that are popular catch phrases among the propaganda-fed herdlings.

Your arguments against revenge and death penalty sound like a word by word repetition of what we have been hearing from the mouth of every bleeding heart pacifist since the sixties.

Basically you think retaliating violence with more violence is counterproductive.

So, how would you respond to violence directed toward you?

I asked you a question and you didn't answer it before. What do you do if someone purposely harms you? How do you respond to a direct attack from someone who is positively motivated to hurt you?

History proves your philosophy wrong.



I think you could benefit from broadening your scope of what constitutes revenge.

If we started executing all life sentences and chopping off the hands of thieves, you would be surprised at how fast society would clean their act up. We would also have a lot more money to use for more productive goals instead of feeding useless people. In this case it would be quite productive to seek more revenge.

I like this post, and the "Test Monkey" post.

And here are some opinions---which I believe is what you asked for, from someone who advocates revenge as moral and ethical justice.

As for your perspective, it is tainted. Drug laws are laws. Stupid, over-priced, doesn't matter. Evidently, instead of using your power to persuade legislature, joining drug-law repeal orgs, or moving to fucking Amsterdam, you got your ass busted. Forgive me if I find it hard to believe that you were sitting quietly in your living room smoking a joint, minding your own business, and the gestapo came crashing in and sent you to prison, not jail mind you, but prison. Busted.

Well, that sucks for you, and it sucks for me, since my tax dollars help pay for it. It sucks all the way around. Boo hoo.

Why it spurred some crisis of anti-faith for you regarding punishment and revenge is beyond my scope.

Revenge is the best teacher of actions having consequences that I know. We can call it what we want--punishment, re-direction, rehabilitation, but essentially it is all the same thing: Consequences for being a douche.

For that consequence to have a lasting impression that benefits both the offender and society, it has to hurt. Bad.

Your confusion about what constitutes revenge is based on limited imagination. It is only the very small minded who believe that one has to risk their own freedom to exact brutal revenge. I can do more damage to a person without leaving my house than I can kicking his ass.



You lie. You are looking for validation or you wouldn't be so threatened by the opinions you sought.

Y~

"We, we, we..."

Your first mistake is making the assumption that Satanists are a group of people who espouse a group opinion on matters political and philosophical (outside of the basic bedrock of Satanism itself).

As Satanism is a religion which promotes the individual, it should be expected that each person will harbor his own ideas and motives, and that individuals are bound to express differing interpretations of what constitutes "right" and "wrong."

If you are looking for blind agreement, especially given your special circumstances, you've come to the wrong place. You are much more likely to encounter challenging, knowledgeable argument than collectivist pity parties and feel-good consensus.

Free thinkers are people who look at issues without regard to ANY doctrine or creed or dogma.

Satanists are INDIVIDUALS who recognize their own ideas in the writings of Anton LaVey.

"Free Thinker", like the "good Guy Badge", is often a smoke screen for thinking or doing what one wants with little to no regard for the implications.

Is a Satanist a free thinker? In some cases, yes.

Is Satanism synonymous with Free Thinker? No.



Simularly, Satanism and intelligence are not synonymnous. Many intelligent people are not Satanists. Satanist vary in inteligence.



Wonderful question. It touches the core of the Satanic agenda.



As could any unthought out conclusion. I stated my reason for not giving my opinion on the issue.

And disagreeing with the death penalty doesn't fall into herd conformity? I guess I can see the individualism in those large masses of picket sign protestors(please add sarcastic tone). You seem to have a bleeding heart mentality Mr. Hellbent666. I believe thay are to lenient on drug offenders.

There is another issue here. This is not directly related to the original post; nor is it pointed to the original poster. It is general.

From time to time, someone comes here, wondering if they are a Satanist. What does that question mean? For some, it means that they want to be a Satanist. The reasons for this are as numerous as the questioner. Perhaps they see strength in the philosophy. Maybe they want to scare people by being evil. Often, they are simply seeking an identity. Their question is basically asking if they can tweak themselves here, and squeeze through there, and still, "technically", be called a Satanist. They are looking for the menu.

Others may, or may not be Satanists. They are generally conscientious. There is an issue they are not sure about...magic, the ego being their god or perhaps the application of lex talionis. These are usualy cordial individuals. Some are and some are not. No big deal...to us or them.

Then there are those who have no problem seeing their philosophy echoed in The Satanic Bible. They do not try to change Satanism to fit them. If these individuals saw that they were not in line with our philosophy, they will wisely move along.

It is like human tetris. One is either the correct shape to be classifified a Satanist or they are not. Simple.

There is "The Satanic view" on some issues. Lex talionis is one of those things. No debate. It would be dandy if everyone got along, no one was hungry and nobody ever got sick and died. That is not the world we live in. The Satanist sees this and carries the bigger stick.

Politics is another issue. Every Satanist follows lex talionis. It is not something to believe. It is the Satanic way. The same for the facts of stratification, personal responsibilty and that there is no higher purpose in life other than to enjoy it. This is the Satanic view. How we individually work these out are politics, life-style and pragmatics.

This is my final post in this thread.

Because you replied to me, which I think you do at random, I will respond to you one last time. Everything you have ever said since your arrival here at Letters to the Devil, has been a waste of my time reading. It is my opinion that you are nothing but a shit disturber! I can almost see you behind the computer at a local library taking delight in slinging your poo here. With that said, welcome to my ignore list.

My answer to the fight or turn the other cheek question is this...just like every animal on the planet if backed into a corner then I will fight. If given an option to fight or walk away I will walk away. If given the option to be a productive person that doesn't fit the mold or do what every other human animal does I will naturally go against the grain. Violence in a perfect world would only be a reasonable avenue if it was life or death and that is my philosophy. Kill or be killed? Hell yeah I'm gonna defend myself! Not every encounter will be classified in those black and white spectrums though because when dealing with unstable people there are a lot of grey areas as well.

If we're talking about base instincts then self preservation is our highest of all instincts, is it not? Then why would you without question violate your physical well being just because your pride was injured? Who gives a fuck?! Call me whatever you want, civilian police me if you want to because I'm sure the moderators don't like me either but just utilize your greatest tool and that is DOUBT. Talk to Nemo, he'll tell you all about it, in fact I think he has an essay somewhere... So, on the topic of doubt shouldn't we question our first responses to things and evaluate whether or not they are going to be beneficial to us? Being pummeled by someone is not what I call making a good logical decision on behalf of your physical sanctity. And don't try to puff out your chests at me and think that you are the toughest person in the world because there is always gonna be someone bigger and badder than you.

I however am a skinny, introverted dude and realize this as a flaw. The issue with me is that I'm such a genuinely nice person that no one really thinks about kicking my ass because I adhere to the rule of "When in open territory bother no one. If some one bothers you then politely ask them to stop. If they do not stop then destroy them." There are a few ways to interpret this. My first interpretation of this rule of the earth is mind your own business and if someone fucks with you then tell them to mind their own business. Then if they start to freak out on you then make an example out of them by "trying" to kick their ass. But remember that society is composed of nosey neighbors and will usually call the cops and someone will innevitably get charges out of it. A better and more productive way to handle this is carry mace or a stun gun if you are legally permitted to do so. I had a friend in prison who got 16 years for self defense that ended in death so maybe you should DOUBT literally interpreting the words "destroy". The law does not always work to your favor and usually doesn't care who is more guilty. Be careful!

So what if I'm a bleeding heart! I think a lot of people lack in the compassion department, but that doesn't make me any less of a satanist. It gives me satisfaction to know that I'm genuinely nice to people and therefore indulging. Some of you are so stuck on thinking that just because a small percentage of xian people are decent, caring people that this is a negative quality to have. It is a revered quality to posess. No one likes hanging out with ass holes! Except maybe me because I am repeatedly put on the defensive by SOME of you. Empty posturing is strongly cautioned against in our literature so why are you under the impression that you are a macho tough guy? Not everyone is a fighter and not everyone is the alpha male. Some of you are more than likely just Beta males with aspirations of Alpha male-hood. Whatever floats your boat.

Ygraine, even though we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things I thought your post was awesome! No, the gestapo didn't come barging into my house and catch me smoking a joint, it was much more than that. I was being an idiot and got caught and given chance after chance after chance, so by no fault of anyone elses I did some time. Am I trying to clean this up and minimalize what I did, hell no. Are drug laws retarded, hell yeah! I'm not playing a victim but you are also responsible for laws being passed under your nose that could even make you a criminal of something. It is very easy to be considered a criminal, just look at the patriot act if you want to see how easy it is for the government you support to screw you on a whim.

Pacifism....hmmmm....I'm not a pacifist because I will fight when I absolutely have to. Is pacifism a bad thing, nope. Those people have a better grasp of self preservation than I do! If everyone was like them (which is not very likely) the world would be way cooler and easier for everyone to get along. Are most of us misanthropists, yes. I do not trust people at all except my family and friends and I use caution when dealing with them. Remember that poser Satanists use their title as a reason to be dicks to people. There is such a thing as common courtesy!

Post deleted out of restraint from banana tossing.

I admire your restraint, but it's a damn shame you pulled the fangs out of your post.

They were very pointy.

I would just be promoting more zoo-ish behaviour anyways, from an ever expanding intellectual blackhole. If he wants to carry on the self-deceit of his pseudo-Satanism, far be it for me to tell him otherwise.

He will either continue to label himself incorrectly, leading to more minor conflicts with real Satanists, (inluding more inane jabber and pointless "discussions" ) Or "figure it out" someday, and be happier, much better off.

Sadly, I don't really care which of these happens, as he is comfortably on my ignore list now.

I often make snap judgments about people and more often than not they're quite accurate.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression but I give people a chance for a while until they prove my first hypothesis correct.

I was kind of surprised to see it works even here, I hardly read a few posters messages anymore and mr hellbent is one of them.

Good to know I am not alone.

Yes, after some time it can be easy to predict how such and such poster is going to react to a certain topic or post, in terms of attitude and delivery at least. I think this is true for anyone that you know well enough.

As you've stated, first impressions can tell a lot about a person. Generally I enjoy associating with honest and comfortable people and I can usually tell right away whether or not one is.

I am selective at times over whose posts I read, other times, if the topic is fresh, I will likely read every post.

As far as revenge is concerned, I think that its only natural to want to feel justice for the wrongs commited against you. I am not saying that this has to be acted out in violence.
I know that I wouldnt want to live my life as a door mat, and I think you can balance that out without having to do anything really bad, keep in mind, that the Satanic Church might hold the belief that you dont turn the other cheek, but they do not advocate anything illegal.


That being said, about four years ago my father was arrested and sentenced to life in prision for murder. Undeniably, what he did was terrible, though, provoked, but I can tell you from first hand experience that jail is a terrible place.
My father has to sit alone for the rest of his life, and miss watching his kids get married, have grandchildren, graduate high school, etc etc. That is the kind of feeling that makes most people wish for death (again, I am not saying he didnt have it coming after what he did, it is a justified punishment).

I frankly dont care if the death penalty is deserved, or if its less expensive/more expensive, I am just happy that its not in Minnesota so at the very least, I can still see and write to my dad.
Out of murder comes a lot more victims than just the deceased, both the family of the victim and the family of the murderer, i think the death penalty would just make that number a lot bigger.

Ignoring a user in most cases (Not here where there is a toggle switch) means that you will be losing out on key parts of a topic. It isn't something to do willy-nilly because someone disagrees with you. In this case, the behaviour patterns this post exhibits have been obvious from day one. He asks a question to everyone in the forum, no one has the "correct" answer according to him, so he will get on the defensive, and try and turn the situation around, using the fact that "I am nice to everyone all the time" as a kind of pathetic good-guy badge. Lather, rinse, repeat. Haven't seen it much on this particular forum, but on other forums I have been on, it was a daily struggle.

I know I am late and if you feel that I am beating a dead horse, just ignore me.

Hellbent, you asked whether revenge or productivity were more important. I feel that the relation of the two is the relation of a means to an end.
You could ask:"What's more important, going to france or being in france?". Being in france, of course, but since you need to go there to be there, what is the point of the question?

We have ideas of right and wrong. But the universe, by nature, and (unfortunately) most poeple in it, are indifferent to our ideas. If you turn the other cheek, you invite your enemies to prey on you. If all good people turn the other cheek, they will be eradicated by criminals, who don't. Not very productive, is it?

We don't live in a world, where, by definition, inaction leads to success. We live in a world, where revenge is most often the tool of choice, because it tends to lead to:

1) Satisfaction. Feeling like a victim hurts, really. I know that very well. But if you really don't feel bad after someone wronged you, then you need no satisfaction. Revenge is not a tool to solve a problem you don't have. If you feel bad, but not THAT bad, you can get rid of the feeling in your ritual chamber, the gym, or wherever. Again, don't solve a problem you don't have.
But if you feel bad and it is THAT bad, what are you going to do?

2) Prevention. If you don't have enemies, that's good for you. No problem, no revenge needed. If you have one and you can just kick him out of your life, do it. No problem, no revenge needed.
But if you can't, what are you going to do?
If people don't feel, that they will be held responsible for their behaviour, then they will most likely behave irresponsibly. Sad but true. Make a stand against the aggressor. He must face the consequences of his actions, one way or the other.
We have a saying that rougly translates to "If you can't kill it, don't shoot it". That's a good objection, but not a general one. It merely says that if you have no means of vengeance that doesn't do more harm than good, don't avenge yourself, because you don't have the power. Bad luck or your own fault, I don't know.

Your objections against revenge remind me that revenge is not a principle to be followed blindly, but that is the case with any principle. You show cases in which revenge is either unneccessary or does more harm then good, but they don't tangle the principle itself.

Revenge is a hammer, but not every problem is a nail...but if you don't have a hammer and come across a nail, you're screwed!

It is strange that I write this. When I joined LttD, I had strong objections against the statement of revenge as well, but now I think a have a better understanding of it. All of you, who replied to this topic, made me think a lot, and I wish to thank you for your inspiration.

I like that, RobMan ;).

The way I see it:

In a world where all is always forgiven and forgotten the eyes of one and all will be at the mercy of a tyrant with scissors.

And then, someday, everyone may be blind, though none sought vengeance.

You are a victim of your father's actions. Like all parents he chose whether his actions would or wouldn't damage those he loved.

Your perspective is naturally guided by your love for your father. Understandable. Yet the family of the dead person won't be getting Christmas cards or negotiating parking on visiting day. Certainly you can see how they would see the situation as unfair. The death penalty balances that scale, when properly applied.

Y~

I agree, yet, at the same time, its different when its someone you love. It does seem unfair that my father spends the rest of his life in a whole and that my cousin is dead.
I think the ideas of the death penalty are the firmest depending on the side you're on. I am relieved we dont have it here, because I at least still get to have him around, and my aunt who never believed in it, wishes every day that we did. I do feel bad for her, despite what she did, i think if she did have her justice, she'd be able to heal.

I'm not looking for a specific answer but I'm definitely not looking for a bunch of un-constructive criticism either. Being an ass is pointless. I wasn't an ass to you guys was I? Maybe my perception is getting in the way again but I'm not sure. I look at this forum as a means to engage in a kind of debate since we all have varying opinions on the subject. Do whatever floats your boat just don't use your title as a reason to be mean to people. Oh and pay attention to the civilian policing topic when you tell people that you think they are not Satanists because they utilize doubt and logic. Those are both key ingredients to Satanism. Maybe my posts are just too contraversial for some of you. I think I'll just lurk for a while.

un-consrtuctive?....you guys?..this forum is is for gods not whiners and being an ass IS the point

DISCLAIMER

I do not advocate any illegal activities as far as revenge is concerned. We have a justice system (all though it does seem lacking at times) but yet, We do have one. USE IT. None of the statements I make are implied to be viewed as something I would personally do Myself. Of course I wouldn't. Nothing stated here is to reflect on the CoS. When I speak of bullets? I speak of them being carried by an armed officer of the law. Oh that We had a Satanic Police Force...

I am a wee bit late in this response however, I will add My .02 cents on the matter.

First and foremost, I was going to be a Police Officer for the Metropolitan Police Department in Indianapolis but chose to remain a sky girl (airlines).

I have always wanted to rid the world of scumbags who would take My wages (tax dollars) to pay for cable Television, weight rooms, and a library for hardened criminals.

I DO NOT LIKE PAYING FOR MEALS FOR SCUMBAGS.



What really chaps My hide is these mabmsy pambsy fruit loops who have had a loved one murdered in cold blood and then........ then? Then they start rally's to save the very low life scumbag who killed their daughter/son/niece, nephew, to NOT advocating the death penalty.

Their argument: It's not going to bring him or her back.

NO S_ _ _! but it WILL most certainly make sure that it doesn't happen again at that same murderous hand!

I want to wrap those people around a tree and make them sing give peace a chance until their internal organs shut down.

I am a strong advocate for the death penalty.

The Good Doktor didn't just say an eye for an eye.......he said LIMB FOR LIMB!

I do not believe in 'rehabilitation'.

If you like to rape and kill children? You will always have that desire. I am not interested in helping you recover.

I am not interested in My tax dollars 'helping you cope with you disease'.

I don't wish to sound brash, but I say that a .25 cent bullet would remedy the situation and that justice would be served.

We need a Satanic Police force. Might IS Right!

You ask if two wrongs make a right?

One big wrong means one big ending to Me. One can only make such a drastic mistake to where it really doesn't matter to Me in the end.

I am sick and tired of feeding these low life scumbags in hopes that their brains will suddenly become 'well'.

It's a sad thing that some people are born with these diseases of the brain, but who am I (OR YOU) to pay the piper for them?

I am NOT My brothers keeper. May he keep himself.

I say lock them up in an institution (which yes, I will and you will be paying for and keep them out of the general public.

Nobody ask to be born with a disease that causes one to commit such horrible acts... however, is it up to you or Me or anyone else to pay for this?

I have many theories, and many 'what if's but the bottom line is this:

I am tired of paying for the crimes of others. I am convinced that there are many 'fakers' out there who don't have any problem aside from being selfish and EVIL.

I hope this hasn't upset too many folk here (this was not My intent) but with crime and the the laws being passed to help criminals I can only hold My stomach in hopes of not retching.

PS: About this Satanic Police Force (something I really would love to see come about in My lifetime)...... I would vote THIS man for Police Chief seeing as how he was a master at giving people exactly the punishments they deserved.

Thanks!

Your view totally makes sense. It's nearly impossible and irrational to forgive someone's blatant and deliberate wrongdoing and act as if nothing happened at all.

Of course, one must realize that if revenge is not used wisely or effectively depending on the context, it can (and will) backfire, leaving the offender wanting to come back for more. If this is something that one experiences all too frequently, then he or she either probably doesn't know how, or doesn't care how to seek proper justice while remaining in the boundaries of the law.

Nobody has been an ass with you. You asked for opinions on a subject and you received opinions.

Revenge is part of the very core of Satanic philosophy. One of the Satanic Statements says "Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek".

So what kind of reaction did you expect from a group of Satanists when you say you find revenge counterproductive?

If you went into a message board for vegetarians and you said "Hey guys, I consider myself a vegetarian and I agree with vegetarian philosophy... except I like to eat meat loaf" what kind of responses do you think you are going to get? Could you blame them if they expressed doubts about your understanding of vegetarianism?

I don't think people have been mean to you. Actually, I think most of the members who responded your posts were more generous than usual with their patience.

Approximate number of replies by title:

Non Member posts: 52
Member posts: 24
Witch/Warlock 4
Priest/ess 0
Magister/ra 4




You wish. There is no controversy. People just disagree with you, and you're the only one pissed off at that. You wanted other people's views and are all shocked and paranoid that some see things differently.




WTF? Nevermind. The day I need the likes of you to instruct me on the key ingredients on Satanism is the day I retire to the nunnery.

Lurk. You might learn something. Keep insulting those with earned titles and all you'll learn is how mean we can be.

Y~

The thing about controversial topics, is that they are controversial because people feels so passionately about them one way or another. Maybe its best not to get so worked up and think for a moment that other peoples opinions arent as good as yours. They have a point, some times people do deserve true punishment for their crimes.
Besides that, revenge is a beautiful thing, it brings someone peace to know that if someone brings you and endless amount of pain, than they will be punished for it.
True, I am glad in a sense that we dont have it here, again, I am on the other side of the fence here. If I wasnt though, I think I would give the idea a possitive vote, because its important to seek justice.



Ha! Those nuns wouldnt know what hit them!

I agree with most of your post.

Though the way I see it is making to punishment far more potently not worth doing the crime.

Such things could include torture, and slow painful deaths.

For Gangs (of the illegal verity, not the group of friends hanging out type definition) have special ops teams devoted to hunting every gang member that is still in a gang and/or still participating in illegal activities, and completely slaughter them. They are a growing problem this "humane" hubris will never solve. As one person said in an interview on that TV series on the History Channel "Gang Land", "For every gang member that goes to prison, there are two to replace him."

When you think about that, you end up seeing how much the "Humane" Hubris solves. Absolutely nothing.

What does extreme punishment with an extremely precise and accurate evidence to support and convict such a person to solve? Almost everything.

Sure there might be that Potential Changer, but even then, that's their fuck up.

Does anyone think that the "humane" way is going to stop prison overcrowding and any crime stop, or does anyone see it won't, and see that the answer lies with extreme punishment would be such a psychological terror to the majority, that do crimes now, would simply stop doing them out of Fear of what they will likely face?

Fear is a powerful weapon when wielded correctly. Fear can influence others into not doing things they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

I think for the illegal drug users the best punishment would be placing them in a chamber filled with tear gas or pepper spray for a period of time would stop such people right in their tracks. How many would want to face such a punishment? How many wouldn't fear such a punishment? Slim to none.

That's just the way I see it. No sugar coating, nor little hold back my thoughts here. Just full blown, point blank, and very real truth. Knowing the mind and how it works makes these things perfectly clear.

Oh don't get Me wrong, I do believe that the punishment should fit the crime.

Bullets are simply cheaper and that means less money out of the tax payers wallet.

In some countries if you steal something and you're caught? They'll chop off your hand.

If our system were more severe in the punishments for crimes committed I feel there would be less crime.

Cut a girls skin off? Well, cut the person who did it's skin off too.

Stab someone? Get stabbed.

This I feel will never happen but it has been proven to work in other countries.

I know that I would seriously reconsider stealing a loaf of bread if it meant losing a hand.

Bottom line is: We have overcrowding in prisons because We are too lenient on criminals.

Screw this three strikes law.

I say let our Police Force grow a set. (The only way they can however, is if citizens speak out). Sadly many have blinders on and could not care less.....that is until the unthinkable happens to them.

No one is immune to being a victim of a horrible crime.

A great post Evil_Eve!

"I hope this hasn't upset too many folk here (this was not My intent) but with crime and the the laws being passed to help criminals I can only hold My stomach in hopes of not retching."

Are you kidding? I am still waiting for you to show your fangs!

Indeed. Though my post wasn't entirely directed at you, just felt I should further my opinion and views. You was primarily used to generalize for others to ask themselves the questions in which are in that post.



Of course it won't. It's highly unlikely it will happen. Then when something like that happens to one of those individuals who go against the less "humane" punishment, gets raped or just before they die when they get murdered, they wish they hadn't supported the "humane" view at all.

They never think of what if this happened to me when it comes to possibly experiencing one or all of the many crimes that could be committed against them. They also fail to have the mentality to see and peer into how the mind works, and yes even individuals with a degree in psychology fail at this miserably so. Ultimately they lack the Mental Depth to actually get it.

For the most part, I am very discriminative towards criminals, unless I see they have actually changed their lives if I am around one. Otherwise, even if they were my own family, I would walk away and disappear from their presence permanently. I am very cold, heartless, and uncaring towards criminals. I have no wish to be around such petty, pathetic puddle scum on the bottom of my boot, members of society.

Hell there's even been a homicide ( middle of last year) where I live. A man who was on his way home from a Baseball Game, that took place in Montgomery, AL, was shot as he was getting to his truck in Millbrook's Wal-Mart parking lot. They killed him, just for his truck, and then man had just stopped at Wal-Mart to get some diapers for his baby. He left a wife and child behind because of two individuals that wanted his truck. They had followed him from the stadium that he left.

So if I seem to be edgy when it comes to this subject, to a strong degree, then there's likely the answer why. Somethings are getting way too close to home than I would like them to be in those degrees.

Hee hee yes incarcerated criminals could, in my opinion, be of great benefit to modern science.

In modern science, animals are used for testing, as the closest thing to humans, the real thing. Most research is done – for the humans – and animals are in a way sacrificed for that purpose.

I think these criminals could be used for the same purpose, and guess what – they are the real thing. They might not be useful for psychological testing, as they often have a mental disorder already, so that part of scientific research is inapplicable to them, but to animals also.

I think it's not such a bad idea, and I have some suggestions too.

The first idea that pops into mind is tissue regeneration. Some ''in vivo'' testing could be conducted, it might end up with a human growing a foot on his head, but hey – everything for science


Another idea is male contraception. Some oral contraceptives – the famous male pill could be invented. It might end up with the warden eventually castrating the criminal, but okay – the world is better off without their sperm spread around anyway – so that's like hitting two flies with one blow.

Constructing the first real cyborg, what do you say about that? Humans have come to love mobile phones so much – why not just install a Motorola directly into a criminal's brain? What happens when the battery low alarm goes off – I don't know. Imagine installing a vibrating function into that mobile, in that case the prisoner might consider switching to ''silent mode'' before taking a shave, though, because a missed call could mean a missing nose............. he he

Just joking a lil here, I couldn't resist

I cannot realy see how this can be a discussion.

As stated above - fear is important.
CravenDesmont is absolutely right when saying so, because the less afraid people are of the consequenses, the more likly commiting a crime will be.
If you kill someone, be prepared to kill.
If you damage someone, be prepared to be locked in for a looooooong time!

Of course.

I'm one of the most easygoing and nice people you're liable to meet--even to a fault, I admit! I don't like to tussle with people and make enemies, for the most part. Gets the hands dirty. Makes the life complicated.

Even when I do intend to exact vengeance against someone, I usually wait and watch for a very long time before making a move, and in the meantime, I may not look like I bear the asshole much or any ill will at all. And, when I can, I try to to let or get someone or something else to do my dirty work for me.

In the end, the greatest revenge, I think, is to continue to do well in my own life, while the asshats get hoisted by their own petards.

Of course, this general approach has its drawbacks and limitations, but also its strengths and benefits.

The point remains, of course, is that there are, in this world, various types of scumbags, criminals, and trolls who have something comin' for the things they've said and done, and I sure don't shed true tears when they finally get it.

Forgive me if someone has already addressed this issue in regards to the death penalty and other Lex Talionis.

I have simple food for thought that goes right back to our tenets. If someone hits you, do you simply turn and walk away thinking, "What good what it do to hit that bully back?" If your wife is raped, do you simply think, "Shit happens and I can accept the loss of my wife's sanity and ability to physically love the way she did in the past."? If someone abuses your child, do we simply allow these pieces of shit to continue to roam our neighborhoods and school yards? Is it pretty neat to continue to see lives destroyed by meth? Are you seriously advocating accepting the loss of someone who is murdered in cold blood??

All of these actions deserve Serious punishment - Period! Why would anyone defend otherwise?

When you think about the cost of our tax dollars keeping these scumfucks alive, consider the savings by simply purchasing a bullet. Obviously, I don't mean taking the law into one's own hands, but I sure don't oppose the death penalty.

Again, I say, "Lex Talionis!"

~Storm

I most certainly agree with Eve here.
I cannot speak for everyone in the law enforcement community, but the criminal always seems to have more rights and is always given leniency when what he deserves is punishment. Whatever happened to being accountable for your own actions? Ignorance and having a rough time growing up is not a valid excuse.
Speaking to personal experience I know I have put much effort and many hours into a case only to have the judge feel sorry for the individual and reduce or dismiss the charge.
Let the punishment fit the crime!!

Indeed! However, as Satanist, We do abide by the rules of our legal system. It's not always fair. "Fair" a word I despise using as there really is no such thing.

I wanted to be a Police Officer to rid as many scumbags out of My community that would threaten Myself, My Family, and those I care about and the innocents of horrible crimes.

I was interviewed twice, the first one was horrible. They had a panel of varied Officers (Sheriffs, IPD (Indianapolis Police Department Officers and such and such). They had a book (each of them with questions to be answered.) THEN there was the stop clock/watch.

You only had so many seconds (maybe around a minute or two) to answer.

I told the truth and therefore was elevated to the next interview and psych test (there were a couple to make sure you weren't nuts.)

My answers were basically what I am telling you all here. I want to get these people off the streets.

Police Academy was to begin in last October. I stayed in the skies. At that time (during the physical agility test) I realized that I had a few problems which later resulted in what I am going through now). I remained in the skies.

I completely am a firm believer (hate that word too....sounds Xtiany,) that Lex Talionis would make this world a far better place to live in.

zodiac said:



Yes they do appear to.

I had a dear friend named 'Jethro' (that's what his friends called him) who was killed in a Denny's parking lot by a man who was so angry that his girlfriend had left him.

Jethro and I worked together in a club. He served our Country during the Golf War.

The man came to the Denny's where Jethro (John) was dining with several girls from the club and demanded that she leave immediately. John, the big soft hearted hunk he was protected her and asked the man to leave.

Leave he did.

Only....

He came back with a gun.

He spit into My friends face, and started to struggle with him. John had a gun of his own but never had the chance to pull it.

The man shot him in cold blood right there in the parking lot.

John had just had a son and was newly married.

I sat through every minute of the trial and the man got away scot free on 'self defense'.

Mind you, that this man left the establishment and came back with a loaded gun. What was his intent?

My friend died protecting a battered woman who had left her horrible torturer weeks prior.

Where was the justice in that?

I feel that every dog has his day. When the justice system fails....there is always.....the Ritual Chamber. If anything, it's worth cleansing your feelings about whatever the matter may be.

Officer Gary Davis (My other friend who was murdered in the line of duty) well, his killer got away as well. The jury (I fear for our jury system as of late of so young, dumb and full of.........) let the little SOB go, because he was so young, and they didn't want to see him pay for a mistake for the rest of his life.

A mistake.

My friend, a husband, a lover of life, an owner and lover of two Boxers that adored him.... gone.

I get more and more upset with our system daily and yet I have to admit, it's still the best one We have. I am proud to be an American. I am thankful of our freedoms and of those who protect them. (Thank you Officers, thank you Soldiers).

Still, isn't it a bit disheartening?

Gary Davis, My hotrod car buddy

My friend Jethro

I am curious on why you all have such a violent view on drugs.

I don't think most people here are aware that most people in prison for drug charges were non-violent people. Wouldn't it be more logical to decriminalize drugs that aren't addicting or highly life threatening such as Marijuana instead of "sticking them in a chamber and then spraying them with pepper spray". Whether you realize it or not drugs are not bad when used responsibly.

Drugs are bad because they are illegal. Please - look up 80% of all posts made the last two weeks.

Ladies and gentlemen, here is yet another drug addict attempting to lecture Satanists as to why their idiot habit is a good thing.

Please do not feed this monkey.

But, I have Cyanide laced bananas....

A violent view on drugs?

Take a good look at the effect drugs have. Half of the crime out there is based on the sale and distributing of illegal drugs. One of the biggest motives for violence is an addict trying to get there next fix.

Using someone currently in prison on drug charges IS NOT a basis for proving that illegal substances don't pose a threat. The consequences alone are enough to make it a bad idea.

To my knowledge any and all drugs deemed illegal ARE addictive and ARE life threatening. That's why they're illegal in the first place. There's no such thing as "responsibility in illegality." If you know its wrong, stop trying to rationalize it.

No, drugs are bad because they are bad.

Not violent.

Realistic.



Let us know just as soon as you have taken care of this.

In the meantime, it remains illegal and we shall condemn it as such.

End of story.