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#299337 - 01/18/08 07:44 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
RaSc Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 484
Loc: PA
 Originally Posted By: hellbent666

Onto a touchier subject....The Death Penalty! Does death justify death? I don't think so. I think it's worse for someone to spend their entire life in prison and usually justice is dealt out by the in-mates. What kind of image does that protray to our society? That people can't kill but our government can? I'm not some tree hugging hippy Satanist but this sounds counter productive to me as well. If we really cared about murder so much then we would make them suffer instead of letting them take the easy way out.

Do two wrongs make a right? I think not. If someone fucks you over then you fuck them over back chances are they will want to yet again return the favor, it sounds like a vicious cirlce of counter productivity! What ever happened to accepting loss? I am all for symbolically destroying them in the ritual chamber because that is a effective way to handle stress and possibly will some change into action but to actually exact revenge sounds silly. No amount of violence will ever cure stupid.

What do you guys and gals think?


I don't like the costs associated with housing, feeding and educating (etc) inmates. The government spends too much of taxpayers' dollars in this area. They have one thing right in the middle east - it's called chop-chop square. Get caught stealing + week trial = right hand cut off in public. Murder + week trial = head cut off in public.

Maybe you could pose the same question to "another" board and see what they think. That way you could make up your mind.

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#299340 - 01/18/08 07:57 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
reprobate Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 7140
Loc: Canada
The great revenge stories of literature are predicated on the notion that harm to an offender can satisfy the aggrieved.

Note that I'm talking about satisfaction, NOT "justice".

Satanism recognizes that even "evil" and unjust acts can be satisfying to our base nature. That doesn't mean that we must or should indulge in them. But Satanism understands that the drive for vengeance is as much a reflection of man's nature as the drive for justice or forgiveness.

Satisfaction is subjective. Only you, the individual, can determine what would satisfy you when someone harms you. The Church of Satan counsels you against doing anything against the law in order to get your revenge, but there are many ways to get your satisfaction within the means of the law. You can press charges and see your offender punished, if they caused harm. Or if they have been merely inconvenient, annoying, or imposing, you can use verbal humiliation. Use your own judgment to determine what's appropriate.

As for the death penalty, that's a topic better reserved for downstairs. The only thing I'd say about it up here is: Severity of punishment doesn't do as much to deter crime as consistency of punishment; and I, for one, don't want to live in a state that reserves the privilege of judging my right to live. There are historical examples of societies with legal systems that didn't have the death penalty but still had a way of dealing with extreme violent offenders that was both just and efficient.
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#299341 - 01/18/08 07:57 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Malakuma Offline


Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 284
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
I would not fight with someone who simply disagrees with me for the sake of revenge. And if I couldn't talk reason into someone, I would not punch them in the face either. That is not revenge; that is a waste of time- and being a jerk. I agree that that is not Satanic behavior.
However, if someone hurts me or someone I love, I will get revenge. If I am physically attacked, I will most likely fight back. I think there is a big difference here. Casual disagreements or random annoyances are one thing. Someone trying to hurt or take advantage of me is another.

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#299354 - 01/18/08 09:00 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Malakuma]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
I wouldn`t like hit someone because they had another view on things. That`s Christianity \:D

But I am for physically punishing your enemies - as long as that`s what you will benefit from the most.
When I was fifteen, I was hit in the face by some fourtheen year old at school. As a teacher was standing almost in my face, I did nothing, just stood there and mocked him into hitting me again.
At that time, that was the best revenge I could come up with. If he had done it after school, I would`ve struck him down. At that time, that would probably be the best way to satisfy myself.

On the topic of penality of death, I find it a topic for consideration.
I`ll try to make a Pro/Con-list.

Pros:

- Scares people from commiting crimes
- Might get rid of some people that deserves the death
- Might feel justifying for the family of the insulted
- Give people the feeling that the gouvernement cares for them (pro or con?

Cons:

- Might be unjustified - get the wrong person, etc.

I couldn`t find more cons, and the seriousity of the pros make me wonder why anyone would oppose it?
Some would say it`s unhuman - Metallica sings "Who made you God to say I`ll take your life from you" and Gandalf says "Who are you to decide wether someone should live or die". These quotes made me think for a moment, but the people that are guilty of charge will most likely have rules unjustice of serious graveness allready, and should not be spared for the sake of humanity!

I think that we in Norway should get the punishment of death, for some cases of murder, for heavy torture (human or animal) and for pedofilia. I think that would make our would a better and safer place to live.
When it comes to the "rot in jail"-argument, beeing for or against Death Punishment, I suppose you`re not from around here.
Our highest security prison, Ila, is rightfully nicknamed "Hotel Ila". I would like to tell you about a case - in 1989, a Norwegian guy found guilty of murder and sentenced to prison until the judge found him safe for the society, were sent to cinema, only guarded by a 26 year old female police-rookie.
On the way home, he raped and murdered his warden.

How could anyone say, that the world would not be a better place with that?


Edited by Never (01/18/08 09:02 AM)
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#299372 - 01/18/08 11:15 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
GCaesarWhiskers Offline


Registered: 01/14/08
Posts: 92
Loc: TN, USA
If someone "fucks you over", there are several choices
you can take on the situation:

1.Are you hurt, offended, pissed-off, etc.?

2.If you get caught dealing out payback, do
"the ends justify the means"? Are you willing
to spend time in lockup, if you do shoddy cleanup
work, don't have an "iron-clad" alibi, etc.
If not, my suggestion would be to let it go.

As Magus Peter H. Gilmore said,"Never forgive.
Never forget." If I could possibly add to perfection,
then I would say: "Never forgive. Never forget. Learn
from what has happened." If you made a mistake or
somehow brought it upon yourself, then learn from it
and don't do it again.

Avoid the people if you possibly can.
Use the authorities and the court system IF and only if
it will help you and not bring you more
problems than it is worth.

How far are you willing to go?
(Obviously this is not a question that you would answer
in this forum, or put on Myspace!)

As far as death row inmates go, if they are convicted, if they
admit it, and if they "honestly show remorse" (whatever that is )
let them spend the rest of their life in prison:
but let their labor and activity inside support their room
and board-- NOT THE TAXPAYER!

If they (the death row inmate) "just don't give a fuck",
put their ass DOWN, put it down HARD, put in on the internet
or pay-per-view, and let all proceeds go to help the victim's
or victims' family or families.

If someone "fucks you over" you could always "flip the script" and be nice to them.
Make them lose sleep when they rack their
miniscule brain trying to figure out WHY?

And if you should decide to "kill them with kindness" they
will draw you ever closer to them. Just remember to
*acquire good recording equipment: camera-phone, etc.* so that
when you have that most coveted ringside seat to their utter
and total annihilation, you can get it on tape, and watch it
" OVER AND OVER AGAIN! "

YEE-HAW!

GCaesarWhiskers
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May your dwelling be warm and dry
May your predators be dead or far away
And may your dominant mate always be happy to see you

Meerkat Blessing



www.vampiretemple.com

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#299374 - 01/18/08 11:17 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Callier Offline

CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 2195
 Originally Posted By: hellbent666

I think it's worse for someone to spend their entire life in prison and usually justice is dealt out by the in-mates.


Death is the great abstinence. Life is the great indulgence. No matter what "justice" is being dealt out by inmates, the prisoner is still living while his victim(s) are not. I say throw him to the chair.

 Quote:
Do two wrongs make a right? I think not. If someone fucks you over then you fuck them over back chances are they will want to yet again return the favor, No amount of violence will ever cure stupid.


It's not counterproductivity. It's self preservation.

I'm not a violent person but if a man shall lay a finger on me the wrong way, he'll be eating a fistburger with cheese.
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#299377 - 01/18/08 11:22 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
May I modify one thing? Sheep react, Satanists respond.
_________________________
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"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#299378 - 01/18/08 11:23 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: GCaesarWhiskers]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Why should the accuesed so called "remorse" have ANYTHING to do with how they are sentenced?

How many serial killers and the like have "repented to god" the second they found out they were going to get the chair? (or rather, the needle) Or have we invented some kind of "intent meter" that can judge how these people are truly feeling? If a rapist kills seventeen babies, but feels pretty bad for it after, THEN it is okay to let him live? I don't buy it, there is a bigger issue at hand here.

I agree that revenge should be handed out with ones self interest in mind. No good Satanist would do something that is going to fuck his own life up in order to mess someone elses up; being tossed in a jail cell ain't living life to the fullest, last I checked.

And no, if someone fucks you over, and you are nice to them, you are leaving yourself wide open for further attack. They need to be taken care of, however that means, WITHOUT breaking the law, or putting yourself in a situation that will get you in trouble. They need to be shunned, never forgiven, treated like pathetic shit, and never even looked at again. They need to be made to FEAR you, not to look at you as some kind of ally. Treating them as such, even if you don't feel that way, would be deceiving yourself, and it won't get you your revenge any faster then if you just TAKE that revenge from the start.

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#299381 - 01/18/08 11:26 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Callier]
LightAngel Offline


Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 1673
Loc: Denmark
 Originally Posted By: Callier

I'm not a violent person but if a man shall lay a finger on me the wrong way, he'll be eating a fistburger with cheese.


I can only agree

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#299384 - 01/18/08 11:42 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Phineas]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Phineas
May I modify one thing? Sheep react, Satanists respond.



Ah! In this context, you are absolutely right. A response is considered.


Edited by Roho_the_Rooster (01/18/08 11:46 AM)
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#299385 - 01/18/08 11:43 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: TheDegenerate]
Thaumaturge Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 1802
Loc: Delaware
I don't mind the cell for life business as long as they are used as forced labor. I believe it is Florida ( correct my understanding if I am wrong) who uses inmates for most of their road work. THIS MAKES SENSE. These folks OWE society. Why the hell are we paying to have them hangout, watch cable, get degrees, etc. I had to bust my ass to be able to afford school and I am still paying it off. Now, i go out and rape a few kids and BAM! I get free college. Where is the logic in that. They call it rehabilitation. well hell, rehabilitate ME then, I could use a PHD and I won't even make the State pay for food and lodging.
Make them work. Fix roads, build housing, Texas and New Orleans could have been rebuilt 2 years ago using prison labor. I understand that the more violent offenders shouldn't be allowed off the prison grounds, so have prison run factories. For the hard core inmates who don't want to work, or are too violent...

They get shot and their family is sent a bill for the bullet .

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#299387 - 01/18/08 11:48 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Thaumaturge]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Yeah, thats a very good point, Innominandum. If they have to rot in jail, and not be "put down", at least let them repay society, not the other way around. Agreed, on all counts.

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#299390 - 01/18/08 12:05 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: TheDegenerate]
Never Offline


Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 187
Loc: Skien, Norway
Innominandum, that, I think, would be awesome. These people realy owe society something.

On the other hand, GCaesarWhiskers, if everyone would be able to admitt what they did and then not be sentenced to death, you wouldn`t think that would could be exploitet`?
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Where I lay my head is home

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#299392 - 01/18/08 12:05 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: reprobate]
Phineas Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 8262
I live in a state where the death penalty exists. I have been here a long time.

I'm not bothered by this in the least bit. And I am still alive.
_________________________
"Consensus is the absence of leadership." Margaret Thatcher

"I'm fascinated with how primitive the human mind still is. It can be misdirected so easily." John Gaughan


"Success is uncommon. Therefore, not to be enjoyed by the common man." Cal Stoll

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#299400 - 01/18/08 12:44 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
G.F.V. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 1950
Loc: NYC
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

Ok.

And turning the other cheek leaves everyone's face scarred.

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