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#300059 - 01/21/08 06:30 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Vestiphobic Offline


Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Minnesota
As far as revenge is concerned, I think that its only natural to want to feel justice for the wrongs commited against you. I am not saying that this has to be acted out in violence.
I know that I wouldnt want to live my life as a door mat, and I think you can balance that out without having to do anything really bad, keep in mind, that the Satanic Church might hold the belief that you dont turn the other cheek, but they do not advocate anything illegal.


That being said, about four years ago my father was arrested and sentenced to life in prision for murder. Undeniably, what he did was terrible, though, provoked, but I can tell you from first hand experience that jail is a terrible place.
My father has to sit alone for the rest of his life, and miss watching his kids get married, have grandchildren, graduate high school, etc etc. That is the kind of feeling that makes most people wish for death (again, I am not saying he didnt have it coming after what he did, it is a justified punishment).

I frankly dont care if the death penalty is deserved, or if its less expensive/more expensive, I am just happy that its not in Minnesota so at the very least, I can still see and write to my dad.
Out of murder comes a lot more victims than just the deceased, both the family of the victim and the family of the murderer, i think the death penalty would just make that number a lot bigger.
_________________________
"Painting gave meaning to my life which without it it would not have had" -Francis Bacon

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#300088 - 01/21/08 09:51 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: shadowraven213]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Ignoring a user in most cases (Not here where there is a toggle switch) means that you will be losing out on key parts of a topic. It isn't something to do willy-nilly because someone disagrees with you. In this case, the behaviour patterns this post exhibits have been obvious from day one. He asks a question to everyone in the forum, no one has the "correct" answer according to him, so he will get on the defensive, and try and turn the situation around, using the fact that "I am nice to everyone all the time" as a kind of pathetic good-guy badge. Lather, rinse, repeat. Haven't seen it much on this particular forum, but on other forums I have been on, it was a daily struggle.

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#300118 - 01/21/08 11:28 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Auge Offline


Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 163
Loc: Germany
I know I am late and if you feel that I am beating a dead horse, just ignore me.

Hellbent, you asked whether revenge or productivity were more important. I feel that the relation of the two is the relation of a means to an end.
You could ask:"What's more important, going to france or being in france?". Being in france, of course, but since you need to go there to be there, what is the point of the question?

We have ideas of right and wrong. But the universe, by nature, and (unfortunately) most poeple in it, are indifferent to our ideas. If you turn the other cheek, you invite your enemies to prey on you. If all good people turn the other cheek, they will be eradicated by criminals, who don't. Not very productive, is it?

We don't live in a world, where, by definition, inaction leads to success. We live in a world, where revenge is most often the tool of choice, because it tends to lead to:

1) Satisfaction. Feeling like a victim hurts, really. I know that very well. But if you really don't feel bad after someone wronged you, then you need no satisfaction. Revenge is not a tool to solve a problem you don't have. If you feel bad, but not THAT bad, you can get rid of the feeling in your ritual chamber, the gym, or wherever. Again, don't solve a problem you don't have.
But if you feel bad and it is THAT bad, what are you going to do?

2) Prevention. If you don't have enemies, that's good for you. No problem, no revenge needed. If you have one and you can just kick him out of your life, do it. No problem, no revenge needed.
But if you can't, what are you going to do?
If people don't feel, that they will be held responsible for their behaviour, then they will most likely behave irresponsibly. Sad but true. Make a stand against the aggressor. He must face the consequences of his actions, one way or the other.
We have a saying that rougly translates to "If you can't kill it, don't shoot it". That's a good objection, but not a general one. It merely says that if you have no means of vengeance that doesn't do more harm than good, don't avenge yourself, because you don't have the power. Bad luck or your own fault, I don't know.

Your objections against revenge remind me that revenge is not a principle to be followed blindly, but that is the case with any principle. You show cases in which revenge is either unneccessary or does more harm then good, but they don't tangle the principle itself.

Revenge is a hammer, but not every problem is a nail...but if you don't have a hammer and come across a nail, you're screwed!

It is strange that I write this. When I joined LttD, I had strong objections against the statement of revenge as well, but now I think a have a better understanding of it. All of you, who replied to this topic, made me think a lot, and I wish to thank you for your inspiration.
_________________________
Alle Wesen bisher schufen etwas über sich hinaus: und ihr wollt die Ebbe dieser großen Flut sein und lieber noch zum Tiere zurückgehn, als den Menschen überwinden?
- Friedrich Nietzsche

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#300136 - 01/21/08 12:28 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: G.F.V.]
TrojZyr Offline
CoS Witch

Registered: 07/25/01
Posts: 12990
Loc: The Solid State
I like that, RobMan ;).

The way I see it:

In a world where all is always forgiven and forgotten the eyes of one and all will be at the mercy of a tyrant with scissors.

And then, someday, everyone may be blind, though none sought vengeance.
_________________________
"Gentlemen, the verdict is guilty, on all ten counts of first-degree stupidity. The penalty phase will now begin."--Divine, "Pink Flamingos."

"The strong rule the weak, and the cunning rule over all." HS!

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#300141 - 01/21/08 12:43 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Vestiphobic]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
That being said, about four years ago my father was arrested and sentenced to life in prision for murder. Undeniably, what he did was terrible, though, provoked, but I can tell you from first hand experience that jail is a terrible place.
My father has to sit alone for the rest of his life, and miss watching his kids get married, have grandchildren, graduate high school, etc etc. That is the kind of feeling that makes most people wish for death (again, I am not saying he didnt have it coming after what he did, it is a justified punishment).


You are a victim of your father's actions. Like all parents he chose whether his actions would or wouldn't damage those he loved.

Your perspective is naturally guided by your love for your father. Understandable. Yet the family of the dead person won't be getting Christmas cards or negotiating parking on visiting day. Certainly you can see how they would see the situation as unfair. The death penalty balances that scale, when properly applied.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#300239 - 01/21/08 07:02 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Ygraine]
Vestiphobic Offline


Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Minnesota
 Originally Posted By: Ygraine


You are a victim of your father's actions. Like all parents he chose whether his actions would or wouldn't damage those he loved.

Your perspective is naturally guided by your love for your father. Understandable. Yet the family of the dead person won't be getting Christmas cards or negotiating parking on visiting day. Certainly you can see how they would see the situation as unfair. The death penalty balances that scale, when properly applied.

Y~



I agree, yet, at the same time, its different when its someone you love. It does seem unfair that my father spends the rest of his life in a whole and that my cousin is dead.
I think the ideas of the death penalty are the firmest depending on the side you're on. I am relieved we dont have it here, because I at least still get to have him around, and my aunt who never believed in it, wishes every day that we did. I do feel bad for her, despite what she did, i think if she did have her justice, she'd be able to heal.
_________________________
"Painting gave meaning to my life which without it it would not have had" -Francis Bacon

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#300272 - 01/21/08 10:30 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Vestiphobic]
hellbent666 Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Colorado
I'm not looking for a specific answer but I'm definitely not looking for a bunch of un-constructive criticism either. Being an ass is pointless. I wasn't an ass to you guys was I? Maybe my perception is getting in the way again but I'm not sure. I look at this forum as a means to engage in a kind of debate since we all have varying opinions on the subject. Do whatever floats your boat just don't use your title as a reason to be mean to people. Oh and pay attention to the civilian policing topic when you tell people that you think they are not Satanists because they utilize doubt and logic. Those are both key ingredients to Satanism. Maybe my posts are just too contraversial for some of you. I think I'll just lurk for a while.

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#300276 - 01/21/08 10:40 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
dvlchild Offline


Registered: 10/29/07
Posts: 30
Loc: austin texas
un-consrtuctive?....you guys?..this forum is is for gods not whiners and being an ass IS the point
_________________________
ave satanis dvlchild

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#300278 - 01/21/08 10:50 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
DISCLAIMER

I do not advocate any illegal activities as far as revenge is concerned. We have a justice system (all though it does seem lacking at times) but yet, We do have one. USE IT. None of the statements I make are implied to be viewed as something I would personally do Myself. Of course I wouldn't. Nothing stated here is to reflect on the CoS. When I speak of bullets? I speak of them being carried by an armed officer of the law. Oh that We had a Satanic Police Force...

I am a wee bit late in this response however, I will add My .02 cents on the matter.

First and foremost, I was going to be a Police Officer for the Metropolitan Police Department in Indianapolis but chose to remain a sky girl (airlines).

I have always wanted to rid the world of scumbags who would take My wages (tax dollars) to pay for cable Television, weight rooms, and a library for hardened criminals.

I DO NOT LIKE PAYING FOR MEALS FOR SCUMBAGS.
 Quote:


Onto a touchier subject....The Death Penalty! Does death justify death? I don't think so. I think it's worse for someone to spend their entire life in prison and usually justice is dealt out by the in-mates. What kind of image does that protray to our society? That people can't kill but our government can? I'm not some tree hugging hippy Satanist but this sounds counter productive to me as well. If we really cared about murder so much then we would make them suffer instead of letting them take the easy way out.

Do two wrongs make a right? I think not. If someone fucks you over then you fuck them over back chances are they will want to yet again return the favor, it sounds like a vicious circle of counter productivity! What ever happened to accepting loss? I am all for symbolically destroying them in the ritual chamber because that is a effective way to handle stress and possibly will some change into action but to actually exact revenge sounds silly. No amount of violence will ever cure stupid.



What really chaps My hide is these mabmsy pambsy fruit loops who have had a loved one murdered in cold blood and then........ then? Then they start rally's to save the very low life scumbag who killed their daughter/son/niece, nephew, to NOT advocating the death penalty.

Their argument: It's not going to bring him or her back.

NO S_ _ _! but it WILL most certainly make sure that it doesn't happen again at that same murderous hand!

I want to wrap those people around a tree and make them sing give peace a chance until their internal organs shut down.

I am a strong advocate for the death penalty.

The Good Doktor didn't just say an eye for an eye.......he said LIMB FOR LIMB!

I do not believe in 'rehabilitation'.

If you like to rape and kill children? You will always have that desire. I am not interested in helping you recover.

I am not interested in My tax dollars 'helping you cope with you disease'.

I don't wish to sound brash, but I say that a .25 cent bullet would remedy the situation and that justice would be served.

We need a Satanic Police force. Might IS Right!

You ask if two wrongs make a right?

One big wrong means one big ending to Me. One can only make such a drastic mistake to where it really doesn't matter to Me in the end.

I am sick and tired of feeding these low life scumbags in hopes that their brains will suddenly become 'well'.

It's a sad thing that some people are born with these diseases of the brain, but who am I (OR YOU) to pay the piper for them?

I am NOT My brothers keeper. May he keep himself.

I say lock them up in an institution (which yes, I will and you will be paying for and keep them out of the general public.

Nobody ask to be born with a disease that causes one to commit such horrible acts... however, is it up to you or Me or anyone else to pay for this?

I have many theories, and many 'what if's but the bottom line is this:

I am tired of paying for the crimes of others. I am convinced that there are many 'fakers' out there who don't have any problem aside from being selfish and EVIL.

I hope this hasn't upset too many folk here (this was not My intent) but with crime and the the laws being passed to help criminals I can only hold My stomach in hopes of not retching.

PS: About this Satanic Police Force (something I really would love to see come about in My lifetime)...... I would vote THIS man for Police Chief seeing as how he was a master at giving people exactly the punishments they deserved.

_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#300297 - 01/22/08 12:49 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: TrojZyr]
G.F.V. Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 12/31/04
Posts: 1951
Loc: NYC
Thanks!

Your view totally makes sense. It's nearly impossible and irrational to forgive someone's blatant and deliberate wrongdoing and act as if nothing happened at all.

Of course, one must realize that if revenge is not used wisely or effectively depending on the context, it can (and will) backfire, leaving the offender wanting to come back for more. If this is something that one experiences all too frequently, then he or she either probably doesn't know how, or doesn't care how to seek proper justice while remaining in the boundaries of the law.

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#300298 - 01/22/08 01:07 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
Nobody has been an ass with you. You asked for opinions on a subject and you received opinions.

Revenge is part of the very core of Satanic philosophy. One of the Satanic Statements says "Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek".

So what kind of reaction did you expect from a group of Satanists when you say you find revenge counterproductive?

If you went into a message board for vegetarians and you said "Hey guys, I consider myself a vegetarian and I agree with vegetarian philosophy... except I like to eat meat loaf" what kind of responses do you think you are going to get? Could you blame them if they expressed doubts about your understanding of vegetarianism?

I don't think people have been mean to you. Actually, I think most of the members who responded your posts were more generous than usual with their patience.
_________________________
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert A. Heinlein


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#300300 - 01/22/08 01:30 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: hellbent666]
Ygraine Offline

CoS Magistra

Registered: 07/11/01
Posts: 2849
Loc: Florida
 Quote:
Do whatever floats your boat just don't use your title as a reason to be mean to people.


Approximate number of replies by title:

Non Member posts: 52
Member posts: 24
Witch/Warlock 4
Priest/ess 0
Magister/ra 4


 Quote:
Maybe my posts are just too contraversial for some of you.


You wish. There is no controversy. People just disagree with you, and you're the only one pissed off at that. You wanted other people's views and are all shocked and paranoid that some see things differently.

 Quote:
Oh and pay attention to the civilian policing topic when you tell people that you think they are not Satanists because they utilize doubt and logic. Those are both key ingredients to Satanism.



WTF? Nevermind. The day I need the likes of you to instruct me on the key ingredients on Satanism is the day I retire to the nunnery.

Lurk. You might learn something. Keep insulting those with earned titles and all you'll learn is how mean we can be.

Y~
_________________________
Magistra, Church of Satan/
Autocrat of the Damned





http://magistrayrainetwo.blogspot.com/

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#300327 - 01/22/08 06:58 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Ygraine]
Vestiphobic Offline


Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Minnesota
The thing about controversial topics, is that they are controversial because people feels so passionately about them one way or another. Maybe its best not to get so worked up and think for a moment that other peoples opinions arent as good as yours. They have a point, some times people do deserve true punishment for their crimes.
Besides that, revenge is a beautiful thing, it brings someone peace to know that if someone brings you and endless amount of pain, than they will be punished for it.
True, I am glad in a sense that we dont have it here, again, I am on the other side of the fence here. If I wasnt though, I think I would give the idea a possitive vote, because its important to seek justice.

 Quote:

WTF? Nevermind. The day I need the likes of you to instruct me on the key ingredients on Satanism is the day I retire to the nunnery.


Ha! Those nuns wouldnt know what hit them!
_________________________
"Painting gave meaning to my life which without it it would not have had" -Francis Bacon

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#300392 - 01/22/08 11:18 AM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: Evil_Eve]
ShadowDragon Offline



Registered: 03/30/07
Posts: 327
Loc: Where I have Always Been
I agree with most of your post.

Though the way I see it is making to punishment far more potently not worth doing the crime.

Such things could include torture, and slow painful deaths.

For Gangs (of the illegal verity, not the group of friends hanging out type definition) have special ops teams devoted to hunting every gang member that is still in a gang and/or still participating in illegal activities, and completely slaughter them. They are a growing problem this "humane" hubris will never solve. As one person said in an interview on that TV series on the History Channel "Gang Land", "For every gang member that goes to prison, there are two to replace him."

When you think about that, you end up seeing how much the "Humane" Hubris solves. Absolutely nothing.

What does extreme punishment with an extremely precise and accurate evidence to support and convict such a person to solve? Almost everything.

Sure there might be that Potential Changer, but even then, that's their fuck up.

Does anyone think that the "humane" way is going to stop prison overcrowding and any crime stop, or does anyone see it won't, and see that the answer lies with extreme punishment would be such a psychological terror to the majority, that do crimes now, would simply stop doing them out of Fear of what they will likely face?

Fear is a powerful weapon when wielded correctly. Fear can influence others into not doing things they shouldn't be doing in the first place.

I think for the illegal drug users the best punishment would be placing them in a chamber filled with tear gas or pepper spray for a period of time would stop such people right in their tracks. How many would want to face such a punishment? How many wouldn't fear such a punishment? Slim to none.

That's just the way I see it. No sugar coating, nor little hold back my thoughts here. Just full blown, point blank, and very real truth. Knowing the mind and how it works makes these things perfectly clear.
_________________________
Hail Satan!
Shadow

To Light a Candle,is to Cast a Shadow.

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#300413 - 01/22/08 12:33 PM Re: Revenge vs. Productivity [Re: ShadowDragon]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Oh don't get Me wrong, I do believe that the punishment should fit the crime.

Bullets are simply cheaper and that means less money out of the tax payers wallet.

In some countries if you steal something and you're caught? They'll chop off your hand.

If our system were more severe in the punishments for crimes committed I feel there would be less crime.

Cut a girls skin off? Well, cut the person who did it's skin off too.

Stab someone? Get stabbed.

This I feel will never happen but it has been proven to work in other countries.

I know that I would seriously reconsider stealing a loaf of bread if it meant losing a hand.

Bottom line is: We have overcrowding in prisons because We are too lenient on criminals.

Screw this three strikes law.

I say let our Police Force grow a set. (The only way they can however, is if citizens speak out). Sadly many have blinders on and could not care less.....that is until the unthinkable happens to them.

No one is immune to being a victim of a horrible crime. \:\(
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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