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#298225 - 01/13/08 08:59 PM Abortion
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
I have been thinking about a Satanic perspective on abortion. Just in case anyone is wondering, no it's not a "I need help because of a personal situation" question, it's more of a "What if" question or simply what are some Satanic perspectives. I saw Magister Nemo's post on another thread, which I copied below.

 Quote:
You wish a Satanist point of view on something?

Offer yours first along with explanations as to why you think that it is so.

Anton LaVey wrote about what he thought and then explained why.

He didn't just ask people, "What is your opinion about ____ ?"

I am suggesting that understanding Satanism comes from first attempting to do so in exactly the same way.

You have read Satanic literature.

You wonder about a topic.

Apply your current understanding to the topic by placing your thoughts in words and then offer explanations for why you think you are correct.

Then when others respond, it can actually develop into something enriching and interesting.

Otherwise it is a fairly shallow exercise in popular polling.

"Hi. What is your Satanic view on kumquats?" is purposeless word salad.

"My view of kumquats from a Satanic view is this: _____ . I feel it is Satanic because _____ and ____ . Do you disagree or have other thoughts?"

This leads somewhere potentially.

Offer something first and then ask for feedback.

That is then not just taking.

It is sharing.

That's how I see it.


I was Catholic for most of my life, and abortion (more specifically the pro-life perspective) is extremely important in that religion. They even have bumper stickers that say "You can't be Catholic and Pro-Life." I'm struggling to shake the last bit of Catholicism out of me, but can't help to think about what a Satanic perspective on abortion could be. I will follow Magister Nemo's advice and post my thoughts. I'm a bit conflicted on this issue, although I know what I want the right answer to be. I kindly ask for feedback and for others to share their thoughts. Thank you.

Probably the most Satanic approach to this issue is not to put yourself (or your partner) in that position in the first place. With a plethora of methods of birth control and a little advanced planning this wouldn't even be an issue. Satanism holds the individuals accountable for their actions and promotes responsible behavior, so I'm pretty confident on this part.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that John & Suzy Doe were using birth control, but it failed and resulted in a pregnancy. I could see Satanism supporting both the pro-life and the pro-choice perspectives. So would this mean that it's up to the individual Satanist to decide where they stand on abortion and what's right for them?

Pro-Life:
1. Scientists can't agree on when life starts exactly. In most cases, if a fertilized egg is left undisturbed it will develop and be birthed into a baby. Don't interfere with the natural order of nature or (depending on when you believe life starts) don't bring harm to young children (in this case, very young).

2. John & Suzy Doe knew (or at least they should have known) that no method of birth control is 100% effective. Their behavior resulted in a pregnancy. They should take responsibility for their behavior and allow the child to be born, with the possibility of putting it up for adoption.

3. In the portion of TSB that addresses greater magic & the destruction ritual it is clear that the person must be deserving and that you would fill no remorse no matter what happens. How can an unborn child be deserving of death (again, I guess this depends on when you believe life starts)? Many women feel remorse after abortions, so that would seem to discourage this practice.

Pro-Choice:
1. It is natural, healthy, & gratifying to follow our animal instincts. If it results in pregnancy, survival of the fittest kicks in and the adult (being the more fit than the fertilized egg) can make what ever decision she wants.

2. "Satan represents man as just another animal ... who ... has become the most vicious animal of all!" If it isn't good timing or doesn't fit into your life style, do what's in your best interest (even if it seems vicious to some).

Once you decide where you stand on this issue, is it really one of those issues (right up there with gun control) that would dictate the way you vote? Is it really THAT important? Furthermore, wouldn't voting on a topic relating to someone else's life and body be interjecting your opinion when not asked? For me it's not important enough to affect the way I vote, I don't care if a candidate is pro-life or pro-choice. Any thoughts?
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"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#298228 - 01/13/08 09:11 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
Have you read Dr. LaVey's thought on the issue?
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#298229 - 01/13/08 09:17 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
 Originally Posted By: ealaiontoir


Probably the most Satanic approach to this issue is not to put yourself (or your partner) in that position in the first place. With a plethora of methods of birth control and a little advanced planning this wouldn't even be an issue. Satanism holds the individuals accountable for their actions and promotes responsible behavior, so I'm pretty confident on this part.



Bingo. "Responsibility to the responsible." A Satanist should likely not come across this problem, unless by pure accident. (Aka, birth control didn't work, AND the condom broke.) In an audio interview with Peter H. Gilmore (I posted it ages ago in another thread...if I find it, I will repost it here) he addresses this issue. I don't remember it exactly, if anyone does, please correct me if I am wrong, but I think from his point of view, it is okay in the right situation.

From my personal point of view, since it IS legal, it is acceptable. I think it is a privelage do be able to have this choice, and that the fact that it gets abused by irresponsible jackasses all too often is a shame, but as it stands, it is backed by the law, and for a price, we are allowed to take advantage of this.

Since moral standards are not dictated by The Satanic Bible, (as long as they reside within the law, Satanists can, and do, have different morals) this topic is highly subject to personal choice, rather then falling under the scrutiny of Satanism. The minute abortion becomes illegal, that is a different story entirely, but such a hypothetical situation would be of no point to discuss, since such seems unlikely at this point in time.

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#298231 - 01/13/08 09:23 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
shadowraven213 Offline


Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 541
This is only an issue because people cannot be responsible, If they took the proper precautions then this would never happen.

The contraceptive pill is 99% effective if taken correctly and that 1% could easily terminate very early while the embryo is still undeveloped.

This rare occasion might cause an issue for some people but the fact of the matter is that an embryo is not going to feel anything at all if its brain isn't even developed, the remote possibility is that it does but its death is very quick and it probably would be unable to appreciate it the same way we do.

And even this 1% should have the choice to go through with the pregnancy or not, Its her body and no one else's.

My Satanic perspective on abortion? it should very rarely have to happen if at all.

I am personally waiting for a male effective contraceptive to become available.
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"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
Charles Mackay - 1814-1889
Scottish poet, journalist, and song writer.

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#298233 - 01/13/08 09:27 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Roho_the_Rooster]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
I haven't, but would greatly appreciate it if you would direct me to the appropriate source.
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** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#298239 - 01/13/08 09:51 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Philotechnic Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 745
Loc: NC, US
Pg. 29, Satan Speaks! "The Third Side: The Uncomfortable Alternative"

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#298248 - 01/13/08 10:24 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
L0ki Offline



Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 991
Loc: Scandinavia
It's easy to for me to start preaching responsibility to the responsible, BUT:

1. I am not a female (SURPRISE) and cannot possibly relate to the feeling of carrying a child.

2. I have never been in a situation where abortion seams to be the only option so how could i possibly judge others?

I shall have to sleep on this matter...

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#298249 - 01/13/08 10:30 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Discipline Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 6796
Loc: Forever West
I don't think this is a wise topic to discuss in the public forums.

Just a warning.
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"I've learned . . . that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~Andy Rooney

"At last I shall have time to devote myself seriously and freely to the destruction of all my former opinions." ~Descartes

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.” ~Richard Feynman

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#298252 - 01/13/08 10:35 PM Re: Abortion [Re: L0ki]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
Abortion as a choice has nothing to do with relating to the feeling of carrying a child. The point is, such a situation should be avoided at all costs in the first place, thus, "Responsibility to the responsible." You shouldn't have to be a woman to see how being responsible in the first place, using protection, etc, is generally a good idea...

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#298253 - 01/13/08 10:38 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
Old_Pig Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3969
Loc: The Deep South
It has been discussed before...


Attachments
HORSE.jpg


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#298257 - 01/13/08 10:54 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Philotechnic]
AurEum Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/07
Posts: 1158
Loc: Australia
Thank you. I haven't read that book yet, but will look into it.
_________________________
** former username Ealaiontor **

"The truth is I've never fooled anyone. I've let people fool themselves. They didn't bother to find out who and what I was. Instead they would invent a character for me. I wouldn't argue with them." - Marilyn Monroe

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#298260 - 01/13/08 11:06 PM Re: Abortion [Re: TheDegenerate]
Drakein Offline


Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 62
 Originally Posted By: Phosis
"Responsibility to the responsible." A Satanist should likely not come across this problem, unless by pure accident. (Aka, birth control didn't work, AND the condom broke.)


Or rape, very common cause of unwanted pregnancies.
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Gather around me, Oh! ye death-defiant, and the earth itself shall be thine, to have and to hold!

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#298261 - 01/13/08 11:12 PM Re: Abortion [Re: AurEum]
tovasshi Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1414
Loc: Banana, Canada
1) I don't see the logic in looking down on an irresponsible person getting an abortion. Do you really want an irresponsible person carrying a child to term and then raising it? Also, if they are choosing to abort because they know they cannot possibly have kid in their current situation, how is that not being responsible?

How can we be sure that any women getting an abortion is doing so because she was being irresponsible? What about birth defects? A pregnancy making the mother violently ill? there are many reasons.

2) Not all women can take any form of birth control they want. A good chunk of women cannot use hormone birth control, which leaves them the option of either sterilization or an copper IUD. Sterilization is difficult to get if a woman is under thirty and its almost impossible if shes never had kids. Most doctors refuse to insert an IUD if a women has never given birth due to possible insertion complications and the fear of a lawsuit.

3) Latex and nonoxinol-9 allergies.

4) There is no one Satanic view on abortion, many have their own views on it. But those views shouldn't matter. What should matter is what you feel is right for you to do in your own situation.


Edited by tovasshi (01/13/08 11:13 PM)
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Hi.

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#298264 - 01/13/08 11:29 PM Re: Abortion [Re: Drakein]
TheDegenerate Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 11/11/07
Posts: 3567
Loc: Cowtown
 Originally Posted By: drakein
 Originally Posted By: Phosis
"Responsibility to the responsible." A Satanist should likely not come across this problem, unless by pure accident. (Aka, birth control didn't work, AND the condom broke.)


Or rape, very common cause of unwanted pregnancies.


Rape is certainly not done on purpose by the victim, so I would classify that as an accident...

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#298270 - 01/14/08 12:14 AM Deeper questions. [Re: AurEum]
Nemo Offline
CoS Magister

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 12536
Loc: Point Nemo s48:52:31:748, w123...
 Quote:
Scientists can't agree on when life starts exactly.


We have no real idea exactly when life started at all. Some very serious scientists find it ridiculous to assume it could have evolved in a mere two billion years and assume life got started somewhere else first.

Why do I mention this?

Because a human life does not start at birth nor conception nor in-between those two events at all!

Your multi-cellular organism (physical body) was created from your parents' cells, as theirs were created from their parents' cells, all the way back.

And, as I just mentioned, we really have no certain idea how far back that is in time but it is probably at least two billion years.

The assumption (which is incorrect) is that a human being starts life somewhere between conception and birth.

Obviously that cannot be so.

You were not created out of dead parents.

The tissue that makes up your body is the continued surviving tissue that has been around for at least two billion years.

(Didn't realize how really old you were, huh? ;\) )

Therefore the deeper question is, "Exactly what is it that is aborted in an abortion?" followed by "What is being killed in an abortion?"

Not easy or simple questions at all!

Frankly, the reason this ethical issue is so very sticky is due to an inability to actually be able to precisely define some important items such as life, death, and human.

What is the dividing line between life and death? What is a human being?

Until these are identified the debate rages on the level of emotional programming and not reason.

Frankly, there are a lot of questions that human beings simply do not have enough knowledge yet to answer.

There remain many mysteries to solve.

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