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#302086 - 01/28/08 10:14 PM Structured debate turned into grasping for air.
Pact_Primeval Offline


Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Derby, England
You may have seen this program. Any thoughts please, on situations related, similar or specifically to this:

I was watching a show on BBC3 called "Kill it, cook it, eat it."
They show graphic scenes of how the animals are killed and then prepared for the actual program itself, which people are offered to try the animal they have just seen killed.

A topic was brought up in particular, which i enjoyed listening to for various reasons, though my focus is on how it was dealt with at the end. Here is a general overview:

People in the audience had a differnce in opinion as to whether a two week old pigletts should be eaten as a delicasy.
One (British) lady being against it, saying she did not agree with the methods used to raise the animals, being in tight enclosed pens as opposed to her free range ranch, and his responce being the unique taste only found in that aged meat, and that it was his culture (I believe he was Spanish). The debate was interesting, both sides raised points until he hit her to a stop, where she resorted to "This is coming from someone from a country that allows Bull Fighting."

The speechmarked section at the end being the focus of this example, not the debate itself. You may have experienced similar circumstances where people have resorted to none-relevant material as means to promote an argument. I would appreciate if people wished to add as many examples as you see fit \:\)

HS!


Edited by Pact_Primeval (01/28/08 10:16 PM)

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#302136 - 01/29/08 03:54 AM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Pact_Primeval]
Ghorth6 Offline


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 46
Loc: War-Celona, sPAIN
I'm half spanish and can tell you that's definitely not a part of spanish culture.
About bull-fighting, it is true that it's allowed, and I have to admit that it's quite a shame to have something like that going on in our days. Bull-fighting is anyhow NOT allowed in the whole country but only in the southern part of Spain. In the Basque Country it is forbidden, as well as in Catalonia and in most of the Northern and Central parts. It's a decision of local governments, though.
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#302181 - 01/29/08 10:56 AM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Ghorth6]
Pact_Primeval Offline


Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Derby, England
Oh i see, excellent. I could not quite remember the details of the gent.

So, if you do not mind me asking; what are your thoughts on how someone you speak to may turn a civil debate into what some might consider an attempted insult for the sake of the last word, or as I put: "Grasping for air"?

Solipsism being key in this, but how do we all respond to those who do not understand Solipsism, but even if they do; choose to ignore it?


Edited by Pact_Primeval (01/29/08 10:56 AM)

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#302383 - 01/30/08 08:24 AM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Pact_Primeval]
Ghorth6 Offline


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 46
Loc: War-Celona, sPAIN
I would definitely not waste my time on such kind of unproductive people with unproductive thoughts and behaviours. Leave ignorance to the ignorant.


H.S.
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#302420 - 01/30/08 11:41 AM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Ghorth6]
Pact_Primeval Offline


Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Derby, England
Well said.

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#302430 - 01/30/08 12:30 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Pact_Primeval]
StabAvery Offline

CoS Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 714
Loc: michigan
I don't normally post answers to these posts but what you are referring to is what I call "dissuasive conversation transferral"
also known as redirection etc. Taking the coarse of the argument in another direction is her feeble attempt to "win". I do this almost every time I am approached by someone I do not wish to converse with. It is a very useful tool and I am sure you will find that it (aside from being a natural defense reaction) will benefit most of your social interactions concerning lesser magic. You can tell if you need work on dealing with these situations if you sound like this lady. An absolute fool.

I am interested to know if the people that watched the baby pigs killed then cooked ate it? I know I would.
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#302491 - 01/30/08 03:02 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Pact_Primeval]
Bill_M Offline
CoS Reverend

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 11535
Loc: New England, USA
 Originally Posted By: Pact_Primeval
You may have experienced similar circumstances where people have resorted to none-relevant material as means to promote an argument. I would appreciate if people wished to add as many examples as you see fit

Oh I've heard people try this many times. It's the old "red herring" fallacy. I've seen some parents who simply don't have the cognitive reasoning skills to debate anything objectively, and invariably fall back on "because I'm your [mother/father] and I say so". I've also seen KKK members and the like who, once their claims were debunked, tried playing the sympathy card ("I have two kids and I love them and I just want what's best for them and...blah blah blah").

You can call them on their BS, but there isn't too much to do besides that. At some point you have to realize when you're dealing with somebody who can't grasp logic 101. What sucks is that these people usually just repeat the same crap over and over again until they bore their opponent into leaving, and then falsely consider themselves the victor. Pathetic.

[EDIT: Actually Ravenhael pointed out the "Ad Hominem" type of attack, where you try to discredit an idea by using personal attacks. Maybe this is more of what was going on. But yes, still one of those signs that the person has lost the argument. You can see this for example in the people who desperately try to discredit LaVey's biography ("He wasn't a lion tamer! I read that on some internet site!") as if this would somehow make Satanism less true.]
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#302493 - 01/30/08 03:06 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Bill_M]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
 Quote:
You can call them on their BS, but there isn't too much to do besides that. At some point you have to realize when you're dealing with somebody who can't grasp logic 101. What sucks is that these people usually just repeat the same crap over and over again until they bore their opponent into leaving, and then falsely consider themselves the victor. Pathetic.


And that Dear Warlock is the Brass Tacks of it. Nothing more to be said.

Pathetic? Oh yes.
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#302497 - 01/30/08 03:19 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: ]
Evil_Eve Offline
CoS Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 4234
Loc: 1313 Mockingbird Lane
Exactly Miss Ravenhael.

There is NO POINT (unless one is bored and wants to have a wee bit of fun).

These people have no logic. It is THEIR WAY or the HIGHWAY......guess what highway? Yeah...AC/DC sang a song about it.

Hypocrites all of them!

The Bible says that Jesus rubbed shoulders with the Pharasies but yet, I have been many years ago in church where someone who would have long hair, or wearing black walk in and they were shunned! Nobody wanted to 'save them'. It was if they had HIV.

I suppose only 'shiny happy people' belong in Heaven.

(Eve laughs).
_________________________
Satan LIVES!
If you could....would YOU?



"Our religion does not require martyrs."
Magistra Nadramia.

FEARED!
Revered.
YOU can be a voice for the voiceless.


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#302499 - 01/30/08 03:27 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: ]
Roho_the_Rooster Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 6999
Loc: Pre-Apocalypolis
 Originally Posted By: Ravenhael
This is exactly why I have a hard time understanding why someone would want to waste ANY time having religious debates with someone who adheres to a faith.






I agree wholewheartedly!

In fact, the amount of my agreement is of such magnitude, that I wish to expand upon this pearl. Why waste time arguing about anything...with anyone. Even if the wannabe opponent feels that they have somehow "won" because of your lack of a come-back...great. It really does not matter what "the other person" thinks.

A discussion...fine. Navigating a lack of communication, or difference of opinion with someone who matters to you...generally worth while. But, an agument...


Edited by Roho_the_Rooster (01/30/08 03:29 PM)
Edit Reason: I disagreed with something I wrote. It was ugly.
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#302506 - 01/30/08 04:10 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Ghorth6]
Taubmann Offline


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 123
Loc: Basque Country
 Originally Posted By: Ghorth666
I'm half spanish and can tell you that's definitely not a part of spanish culture.
About bull-fighting, it is true that it's allowed, and I have to admit that it's quite a shame to have something like that going on in our days. Bull-fighting is anyhow NOT allowed in the whole country but only in the southern part of Spain. In the Basque Country it is forbidden, as well as in Catalonia and in most of the Northern and Central parts. It's a decision of local governments, though.


Well, I would say "la matanza" is pretty important in some rural areas from Spain. Whenever I go to a basque folk festival I spect my meat to be first class "home grown" pork. So in some way raising the animals you eat is a cultural reality for a lot of spaniards.
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#302525 - 01/30/08 04:46 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: StabAvery]
Pact_Primeval Offline


Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Derby, England
 Originally Posted By: slvrrain
I am interested to know if the people that watched the baby pigs killed then cooked ate it? I know I would.



Yes! Some of the audience do eat the meat afterwards. It's a healthy sized audience of people from many cultures so you can never pin point what is going to happen, but it's fun to guess. You have the people who dispise animals being killed no matter what, the people who change their opinions from what they experience, and the people who try the meat even after they have said how inhumane it all is, and how they have been put off eating it.

By eating beef in our country you are helping. The male animals are shot and burned if no one wants them. So eating meat makes me feel better as i would rather animals be put to good use, instead of having their lives ended because no one wants them.


- I believe somewhere on the BBC website you can view the programs, should your interests touch the subject.


Edited by Pact_Primeval (01/30/08 05:01 PM)

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#302529 - 01/30/08 04:55 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: StabAvery]
Pact_Primeval Offline


Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 51
Loc: Derby, England
 Originally Posted By: slvrrain
I do this almost every time I am approached by someone I do not wish to converse with.


Oh i completely agree should i be approached.

I should have mentioned the lady on the show started the debate. So in that particular instance, i would probably reply with. "So is your face." But that is just me \:D


Edited by Pact_Primeval (01/30/08 04:58 PM)

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#302530 - 01/30/08 04:56 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Pact_Primeval]
DickSteele Offline
CoS Warlock

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 1411
This happened just recently to my wife. Her brother was up visitng and wanted to see her. She and her daughter decided to meet with him at their Mother's house. When they returned home they were upset to say the least. Her brother is a devout Jehovah's Witness. My wife was brought up this way but no longer adheres to the religion. Her brother went on a self-righteous tirade where he proceeded to speak down about me. This man has never met me, he should probably be lucky that he hadn't. He was preaching wholeheartedly and then my wife went on to tell him that I am in college. He asked "how long has he been going?", "well, almost 4 years", "well, only someone going to be a doctor or a lawyer would go that long".
This man went from trashing me about my religion to trashing me because in his perspective I shouldn't have been in school that long. The funny thing is that if I decide to continue my college education-in 8 years (actually 4 more), I will have my PHD, just not as a lawyer or medical doctor. My stepdaughter was really pissed that he talked the way he did about me.
In his closed mind he couldn't reconcile a Satanist with college.
My wife informed me that his education can be counted on one hand by the way.
Originally he was saying that it was sad to see Delia in the state she was in. What exactly is her state? She is working, in college, a great Mother, a wonderful wife, has freed herself from the constraints of organized religion, and someone who has goals. He couldn't quite talk down to her about that so he turned his attention to me, when that didn't work then it became the fact that obviously "only someone who is going to be a doctor or lawyer goes to college that long".
I laugh.

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#302534 - 01/30/08 05:05 PM Re: Structured debate turned into grasping for air. [Re: Pact_Primeval]
Shegeek Offline


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 33
Loc: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
I just think it was hysterical that I buried my face in the pillow when we watched that and went out and had a burger with you the next day. I'm suuch a hypocrite!
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